Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    
    Just trying to buy a decent car seems impossible, never mind
    a house.
    
    Good luck though,
    Dwight

    RE .1 TRUE
    RE .0 Good luck
     
    Getting a mortgage when paying child support according to guidelines?
    Ha ha,:^) if anyone can figure out a way, hope you share it. 
    
    	Dennis_who_pays_high_support
    
    P.S. If I sound bitter, it's probably because I am. 

    	RE:  .0
    
    	Do you live in New England, by any chance?
    
    	The cost of homes is so high there, I can't imagine how ANYONE
    	affords a mortgage.
    
    	Does anyone know what the average monthly payment is for a house
    	back there?  It must be astronomical.
    
    	Out here, most people that I know pay around $800 (but I do
    	know some who pay as high as $1000 or more for a nicer house.)
    
    	(Sorry for the tangent.  Just curious after watching "This Old
    	House" on PBS last night and seeing what people pay for new
    	and remodeled houses in Lexington, Massachusetts.  I thought
    	they had to be kidding!)

    on TOH EVERYTHINGS expensive, Sue.  Houses around here are indeed
    expensive but it can be done...  
    Now, as for the gent getting "reamed"  if oyu live in NE forget
    it.  An average home IE: 2br, 1 bath etc  goes for about, say 130k?
    You can do a YUK cond for about 90k or so... but who wants to live
    in an over glorified apartment?  Not I.
    
    Our hous is 125 (+-) years old and went for 109...  figure it out...
    By the time we are done "this ol housing it" the damn thing will
    be worth about 200 (i Hope)...

    Things aren't as bad in "New England" as some say, and how anyone
    could believe that the six-state area has uniform attributes
    is a mystery to me.
    
    If you don't insist on living in the glitziest parts of a city
    or a posh town, you can buy very nice houses for reasonable
    prices (under $100K).  Even in Nashua, I found a large 3BR, 2 bath
    house for under $125K a year ago.  (And my next-door neighbor's
    house is for sale at a similar price...)
    
    But, to the original subject...
    
    Having half your pay disappear is bound to put a severe cramp on
    your ability to get financing.  And that's understandable, considering
    you have to pay your mortgage somehow.  The only solutions I see
    are to make more money or to get the level of support payments
    reduced.  I wish you luck...
    
    					Steve

    	RE:  .5
    
    	Sorry, Steve, I forgot how touchy some folks are when an outsider
    	refers to their state (and nearby states) as "New England."...:-)

    	I was just curious.  If things are not as expensive where you
    	are as I've heard, then I'm glad.
    

    Latest sadistic statistic I heard:
    
    A house in Massachusetts costs an average of $140K.
    
    A house within the rte 128 belt costs an average of $240K.

    (of course the cost of the second contributes to the cost of the
    first, but it's still pretty disheartening.)
    
    -Jody
    

    RE: .10
    Who can we blame for the price of anything... ourselves.  When the
    demand goes up, so too, does the price.  I recall that when the
    interest rates started to come back down in the early '80s, the
    pent up demand for housing drove the prices up radically.  It was
    really a sellers market.

    
    I realize this is a tangent, but as a visitor to Colorado
    I am amazed at the value one can get for the real estate dollar
    here. 
    
    40 acres, a barn, and a cabin for 110k... within 40 miles of
    Colorado Springs. New, decent tract homes near town start around
    75k...
    
    110k in the Bay (SF Bay) Area will get a condo (1BR 1Ba) under 
    the Moffet Field flight pattern. 
    
    It will buy a 3BR 2Ba house in Los Banos, Modesto, or Patterson
    though. I thought for about a minute before deciding that a 100+
    mile one way commute is inoperative, so I will continue to rent
    and live near Los Altos. 

    Re: .13
    
         Well, try this one for a heart-breaker.  I have a 7-minute
    commute (when the traffic is bad), and a rent bill that is lower
    than an economy car payment.  We have a ski area in town, and 
    outrageous hiking mere minutes away from DEC.  Are you sure you
    don't want to move to Colorado Springs?
    
         As for how I would handle it with a child-support bill to take
    care of, well, I'll let ya know in a few years.
    
                                  Greg

    I don't kbow how any of you guys that have child support payments
    rent never mind buy. I can't believe the courts award such high
    child support when anybody knows that if the guy had the child living
    with him it wouldn't cost half as much. a guy I know was paying $75.00
    per week for each child total $225.00 total, that was 8 yrs ago.
    He also had to pay for the ex'es car payment. He ended up living
    in low income studio apartments while the wife kept the house of
    4 bedrooms, 2.5 baths, and a swimming pool. I have 2 children, and
    I don't believe that it cost me $75.00 for the both of them. I just
    don't understand the high payments for child support that the courts
    are awarding.
    
    Jim

    I have an uncle that is an airline pilot making very good income.
    In his divorce 9 years ago his wife was awarded the house 4800sqft,
    5 bedroom,pool and 800/mo child support per child(1boy,1girl) the
    kids go to a private school and take 30 day vacations to europe,
    orient,ect. He lives in 3 room cabin living/bedroom,bath,kitchen
    that is barely big enough to turn around in, drives(not by choice)
    a 18 year old car and visits my family for vacation(free lodging).
    
    To add insult to injury a few years ago there was a layoff that
    caused him to be out of work for 4 months his wife had him thrown
    in jail within 48 hours of the time she found out he wouldent be
    able to make the support payments on time.
    
    Talk about paying for a mistake!
    
    -j
    

    To get back to your original the only suggestion I have is I suggest
    you look at Muti-family homes. Look in areas where you can buy at
    least a 3-family and live in one apt. When you go for a Mortgage
    you are allowed to claim most of the rents as income toward the
    mortgage. Once you get approved and build up some equity you can
    begin to trade up from there. A 4-family would be better qualification
    wise, etc.....but look at the long run rather than a single now.
    Also you will be able to increase your net pay with deductions on
    the house from the I.R.S.   It can be done.........
    
    Good Luck,
    
    LEC

    re: .17
    
    Aren't child support payments determined as a percentage of total
    income, which in the situation you propose would include the rental
    income?  Can one reasonably expect the rental income from such a
    property to be sufficient to cover the mortgage, maintenance expenses,
    and the additional child support?
    
    	- Jerry

re: 18
	Jerry,
	Expenses and other bills ARE NOT taken into account when child support
is determined. It's a strict percentage of one's GROSS income regardless of
other expenses.

Ken

    re:17 & .18
    Yeah, the guy I knew of, every time his ex thought his income increased
    she haul him back into court for more. One time DEC had to send
    a lawyer to prove that he didn't turn down a promotion to avoid
    paying more child support.

    
    Yeah, its real tough. Gotta try not to make enemies and
    to not burn bridges. You pay for the privelege of hating
    your ex. Be diplomatic and try to work it out of court.
    
    It stinks, but what can you do? It's cheaper to keep her.

         Thet feller from "Married with Children" said it's cheaper
    to waste her.
    
                                    Greg

    re: .19
    
    Ken,
    
    The point I was trying to make is that the rental income will be
    included in the gross income used to compute the support payment.
    Or is this not correct?
    
    	- Jerry

re:.23


Jerry,
	Sorry, I missed your point.... Yes, that is the case.... Any other
income will be used to compute the percentage of child support... I
misunderstood your first statement. Sorry

    About 12 mos. ago "child Support Guidelines" were put into effect
    in Mass.  Most states should have some guidelines since the feds
    are requriing it for federal aid.  Anyway, the guidelines are
    "supposed"to put some equity into the amount of support awarded.
    The aprties can agree to amounts other than those dictated by the
    guidelinee, but in my experience, the judge will want an explanation
    of why.  The guidelines apply where combined gross income of both
    parties does not exceed $100K and where the income of the noncustodial
    parent does not exceed $75K. The way the basic guidlines work is this:
    
    Gorss Weekly Income (non-custodial parent)  1 child   2       3
    
    $0 - $200		                  Discretion of Court not <$50/mo
    
    $201 -$500	                               25%      28%      31%
                                               (+2%)       (+2%)     (+2%)
                                               
    
    Age Differential
    
    AGE OF OLDEST CHILD
        0-6	                                Basic Order Applies
    
    	7-12					Basic Order + 10% of
    					                  Basic Order
      
    	13-18	                                Basic Order + 15% of
    						           Basic Order   
        The Basic Order is figured by taking the Noncustodial parent's
    gross income (less any prior support obligations) and mulitplying
    it by the % shown above.
                                     
    The Basic Order is adjusted for the ages of the children. (Adjusted
    Basic ORder.)
    
    This figure is then adjusted by the Custodial Parent's Income. To
    do this the Court figures as follows.  The Custodial Parent is allowed 
    $15K 'free income' (no adjustment to the support).  They
    are also allowed to deduct the annual cost of day care from the
    their gross income.  (Custodial Parent's Adjusted Gross Income =
    Gross Income less $15k, less day care.) 
    
    The two incomes (noncustodial gross and custodial adjsuted gross)
    are then added together.  The custodial gross income is divided
    by the noncustodial gross income to come up with a %.  That % is
    mulitplied times the Adjusted Basic Order to come up with the
    support amount.
    
    Although expenses and otehr financial obligations are not included
    in the support guidelines, each party must complete a Financial
    Statement which includes these.  Many Courts now have a person
    who sits down with parties and mediates support disputes before
    they go into the courtroom.  At that time the financial obligations
    of the party may, and often do, effect the final amount of the
    support.
    
    Child Support is not meant to be punative.  It is meant to ensure
    that children are adequately taken care of when parent's divorce.
    That doesn't mean that it isn't used in a vindictive manner.  These
    guidlines should help to cut down on tht abuse.
    
    A word of advice.  Spend the time, money and energy getting a fair
    order up front.  Generally changing an existing order requires a
    finding of a "material change of circumstance" which can be a tough
    thing to show.

    Just a technical question - how do the guide lines apply to
    a self employed parent?  This way wages may be manipulated to
    show high or low as he or she wishes.
    
    Jim

    re: .27
    
    Good question.  Haven't run into that in my practice but I believe
    that I would supoena tax records for the last 3-5 years, bank account
    records and possibly (if they exist) the other party's business
    records.  From there you should be able to get some picture of what
    the party's average income is.  It probably isn't going to be real
    accurate but should let you get to a starting point.

    
    .0
    
    	"Any suggestions on how a divorced father can get a mortgage?"
    
    Sure, win Megabucks!
    
    	Want to know what's worse than trying to get a mortgage?
    
    Paying a 600% (yes, that's right.... six hundred percent) increase
    in your cost of living.
    
    I owned a home in RI with a mortgage of $132 mo.
    Now, I pay rent in excess of $800 mo.
    
    If you ever figure out a way, please let me know.
    
    ---- Still paying the freight -----

    
    	Just so you know that not ALL women are out to get their
    	ex-husbands...
    
    	Friday at 3:50pm my divorce was pronounced final by the
    	judge (Douglas County, Colorado)!  The judge asked both
    	of us if we realized that we were waiving the right to
    	maintenance (also known as alimony).  We said "yes".

    	Then he asked if we were prepared to share in all the
    	decisions concerning our daughter (ie. joint custody).
    	We said "yes".  Then he asked about living arrangements
    	for our daughter.  We said we were alternating weeks
    	of physical custody, and would split expenses like food,
    	clothing, tuition, etc 50/50, therefore no need to 
    	exchange money via "child support"...  He was somewhat
    	surprised, but agreed to it...with the stipulation that
    	if circumstances change, so could the arrangements.
    
    	So...no alimony, no child support, splitting sale of house
    	50/50...  meanwhile, though until the house sells, I get to
    	pay the mortgage of $1200/mo... at least I get to live in it!
    
		sherry  

    Re: .30
    
    Congratulations, Sherry.  Your agreement is almost identical to
    the one for my divorce.  It is important to realize that this
    sort of thing only works when the two parties aren't angry at each
    other and have similar income and resources.
    
    				Steve

    
    
    Actually, Steve, it's possible to have an agreeable arrangement
    even when there is anger and a substancial difference in indivi-
    dual income.
    
    My husband and I agreed that he would pay a substancial amount
    in child support, in order for our son to continue his lifestyle.
    The referee (in the state of Colorado) tried to persuade my husband
    that he was paying too much.  It concerns me that the state will
    not allow consenting adults to make a responsible decision.  
    
    We also agreed to 50/50 custody.  However, I pay all child care
    costs, and related expenses including clothing, etc.
    
    It should be noted that there was considerable anger between us.
    However, it stayed exactly there-between us. either one of us
    used money or our child as a tool to 'punish' the other.
    
    Finally, as my income as increased and my situation has become more
    stable, I have asked my husband several times to decrease the amount
    of support that he pays.  He has declined, therefore, I am putting
    the amount I would have deducted in a savings account in my son's
    name.
    
    I don't think we are out of the ordinary individuals-just two
    responsible adults willing to act in a reasonable manner.   I don't
    understand why this type of situation is not more commmon.
    
    Deb
    

    Cheers to you and your ex, Deb.  However, my remark in .31 was directed
    at the "equal split" arrangement that Sherry described, with no
    child support or "maintenance".
    
    Perhaps instead of saying "no anger" I should have said that it works
    when the parents put their child's well-being ahead of any differences
    they may have.
    
    					Steve

    The inquiry of the base note was "How do you qualify for a mortgage
    when you have support payments?"  Well, I did it.  Yes it's a 95K
    townhouse condo but I am a home owner again.  The biggest question
    is whether or not you can swing the payments including the downpayment.
    Then you find a mortgage broker, he will charge another point and your
    interest rate will be higher.  My rate was only about 1/4 higher and
    the mortgage is with Citicorp (heh, almost the same as my charge card).
    What you will have to do is document a bunch of things, like all your
    payments are made, etc.  One of my hassles was that I still had my name
    on a couple of other mortgages and another car payment.  I also had
    to do a few things with my other debt load.
    
    A broker may also have access to money from private citizens who are
    willing to take a chance.
    
    I am sure that if you add together all of the "stress factors"
    (finalizing a divorce, adding to debt load, ...) I am a prime candidate
    for something bad; it's a good thing I didn't get a raise this year !�
    
    ed

    
     	If the non-custodial parent makes 40k and the custodial makes
    30k along with the fact that there's 2 teenage kids involved that
    are 13 and 17 years old what is a fair estimate of what the
    non-custodial parent might be required to pay based on the guidelines
    ?

    It varies by state.  In NH -- according to the opinions I have been
    provided -- it's 33% x (net of 40k after taxes).  I.e., the 30k is
    irrelevant and immaterial for support but if it didn't exist would
    be cause for alimony.  The 33% could be higher if you don't maintain
    medical insurance.
                       
    ed