Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    
       There is little if anything he can do.  As a recent veteran of a
    bitter divorce ( on her part only ) I know that the courts ( Worcester
    Probate, Mass. ) will give little credance to the ex-husband in this
    matter.  But in regard to the ex-wife the inverse is true.  The court
    is virtually biased in total favor of the Custodial Mother.
    
       My advice for him is to avoid getting into an arguemenative
    situation with her even if it means temporarialy curtailing his
    visitation until the final settelment of the divorce.  When he does
    go he should bring along one or two friends as witnesses.  Do not go
    into the home. Above all keep smiling and make no reply what-so-ever
    to the agression.  Do not put the children in the middle of it nor
    speak any ill-will of the mother to, or, in front of them.  
    
       Tell him not to worry that the children will be alienated from him.
    Just be the best father he can be under these limitations and
    conditions.  Only the marriage is lost and not the children. Focus
    on them and life after the divorce.  Later in life they will come to
    know the truth.  So will others.  As Shakespear said: "Murder will
    out."  

    
    
    This is not a divorce situation.  They never married so there
    is no divorce decree.  They are trying to settle on an agreement
    with the courts over custody and visitation rights.  It would
    seem that she is trying to get back at her for not marrying her.
    But regardless, I want her to stop abusing him and was wondering
    if there is any legal manner which can be used to do this.

    
       Glad it is not a divorce.  But then again the court must first be 
    satisfied that it is his child and that he will pay support under the
    mandated Child Support Guidelines.  If he has approached the Probate
    in good will and offers support, then in the eyes of the court her 
    present actions (agressive and violent behavior) will be of little 
    matter to them.  The court considers the child above all in these 
    matters.
    
       To stop her actions he must obtain a Restraining Order against 
    her. Consult the Court Clerk, a lawyer (BOO, HISS) or the local
    police on how to obtain one.  Again, he must have the patience and
    demeanor of a saint to succeed.  Make sure there are witnesses, if
    possible.  
    
        Good Luck to him, he'll need it.

    
      Sorry about the cold water, but she will get custody, and he will
    pay support.  At least his efforts will result in joint cusody -  he
    will become a weekend father (every other weekend).  All this agressive
    contention will not get her any more than  that or him any less.
      
      A Restraining Order will stop the violence.  Or at least reduce it
    greatly.  Tell him not to delay getting one.
    

    HAVE witnesses and get photographs of the cuts. (It helps if you
    get them before he gets a chance to clean them up.)  Having the
    court see what was done is a hell of alot better then a description.
    
                                                        Mike

    If he loves the child, he will do what is best for her. I don't
    know the entire situation, but love sometimes means having to let
    go. The mother no doubt will receive custody. If the child will
    only suffer emotional damage by him pursuing a custody battle,
    then he should let go.
    
    Jim
    

    Wait a minute.  If he can document what happened - witnesses and/or
    photographs of the damage and/or medical testimony, he should be
    able to pursue this through the criminal courts.  Last I knew, assault
    and battery were illegal.
    
    Elizabeth

    
    As far as him suing for assault and battery it is just
    his word against hers.  No one was there except the child
    who was in her mothers other arm while she was swinging 
    at him.  But I don't think she can be counted because she
    is only 2.  This time she didn't cut him up so he didn't have
    to go to the hospital.  I guess she is wising up to the system
    and understands how to manipulate it.

    Sounds, to me, like this is a *very* sick lady who desperately needs
    some help.
    
    I sure hope she doesn't abuse the child now or in the future......
    

    Sounds like a strong lady, to be able to beat up a man while holding
    the child in her arms. I'm sure she has a side to her story.
    
    Jim

    I was wondering how long it would be before someone would say something
    like that.....

    
    
    re. 10
    
    Here is her side of the story on that night.  She was 1.5 hours
    late picking up her child from his scheduled visitation time.
    The time was 11:30 at night and she never even called to say
    she would be late.  They were sharing an apartment, but she moved
    out on him a month earlier with no notice.  She wanted to pick up
    a few things which still remained in the apartment.  But it was
    11:30 at night and the kid was sleeping.  Also under the temp.
    agreement the courts gave them, she was supposed to tell her
    lawyer when she wanted to finish getting her stuff and then
    her lawyer would talk to his lawyer and they would make arrangements
    for him to be out of the apartment while she gathered her things.
    
    So he told her that she could not get her stuff because her lawyer
    insisted he not be in the house while she was there.  So HE was
    adhering to the court stipulated agreement which he is supposed
    to follow strictly or he could lose what little custody he has now.
    She then got upset because he was following the rules and she picked
    up her kid and started swinging.
    
    This isn't the first time she has done this.  In fact she quite
    often would come after him with the child in her arms.  Now personally
    I feel that if you have to beat on someone DON'T involve the child.
    This kid flips out everytime this happens.  I have been there on
    a few occasions to witness this woman's actions.  I have seen her
    pick up her child and go after him.  Now if she were mad at him
    and wanted to go after him then why does she need the child to help
    her???
    
    She is subjecting her child to this violence and it it wrong!!

    re:12
    I don't doubt your story. The only thing I was questioning is
    that you mention that she beat him up while holding the child
    in her arms. Most people would have a hard time beating someone
    while holding a bag of groceries, never mind a child. It would
    seem to me, that he could defened himself and not cause harm to her or
    the child. In all the situation sounds bad. I hope the child can
    get through it, without becomming bitter against the world.
    
    Jim

    
    Re: 12
    
      I believe you.  My Ex did much the same thing with the children
    present in order to create the maximum effect of emotional storm.
    And always these outbursts were created when I strictly adhered
    to the Temporary Order causing her to fly off the handle, to put
    it mildly. It stopped with the injunction of a Mutual Restraining
    Order and me having to bring witnesses along during my visitation.

    
    
    re. 13
    
    Ok the problem you seem to be having is with my choice of the
    phrase 'beat up'.  She was punching him and kicking him.
    He did not do anything but raise his arms to block her punches.
    This woman has nasty nails and lets face it most woman will use
    these weapons and scratch untill they draw blood.  So obviously
    the term beat up is different with men fighting and woman fighting.
    Regardless, this woman insists on picking up her kid ( who is two)
    and starts hacking away.
    
    As far as defending himself , due to the situation the only thing
    he could do was retreat.  Because if the courts found out that he
    hit her (even if it was self defense) they would consider him an
    abuser.  However, since most judges think the same way that you
    appear to that a woman could never beat up a man or start a fight
    that it must have been started by the man and the woman was just
    defending herself.  This is bullshit.  Have you ever seen two woman
    go after each other?  Believe me it is not a pretty sight and YES
    some woman are capable of really doing damage to a man.
    
    However since most men are bigger and stronger and also have been
    taught to fight, the majority of people believe that women in 
    general can not 'beat up a man'.  Well if you were trying to gain\
    some custody with your child and that childs mother started to hit
    you, I think you too would retreat and not hit back because you
    too know that she has the system on her side.  If her really wanted
    to all he has to do it hit her once and that would be the end.
    He would probably satisfy is male ego , but he would have just kissed
    his daughter goodbye.  What would you do??

    Re:15
    Got your point.
    What would I do ? I really do not know. 
  
    Jim    
  

    	RE: .15
    
    	> let's face it most women will use these weapons and scratch
    	> until they draw blood...

    	When you generalize about women in this way, you are ALSO
    	talking about yourself, you know.  Do *you* use your nails
    	to draw blood when you are angry?   No?  Neither do I.
    
    	Neither do most women (just as most men do *NOT* beat up women
    	when they are angry, even though they come equipped with weapons
    	that would easily do worse damage than nails when used with
    	any sort of force at all.)
    
    	This woman is an individual, and is responsible (as an individu-
    	al) for her own actions.  If her actions are the result of
    	being a woman, then your friend would have to be pretty crazy
    	to trust you any more than he trusts her.  See what I mean?

    
    re. 17
    
    Ok I see what you are saying.  But I have never seen a woman NOT
    use her nails if she were in a physical confrontation.  For some
    of us that is one way we were taught to defend ourselves.  I myself
    could never use my nails because I have a nasty habit which prevents
    them from getting to any substantial length.  But if given the 
    opurtunity to use them yes I would.  Mind you I am only 5'1" so
    If I were to punch someone I would usually be hitting below the
    belt due to my size.  If I were defending myself I would use any
    method I could.

    
    
        She assaulted him. She should be prosecuted and convicted and
        sent to prison, just like a man would be!
    
    
    
    

    	RE:  .18
    
    	Well, I don't know where you live (or hang out) but I've *never*
    	seen a woman use nails as a primary offensive or defensive
    	weapon, so I seriously dispute your claim to the use of the
    	phrase "most women" when it comes to tendencies to use nails
    	(or even tendencies to become violent.)
    
    	As a point of fact, nails make a very ineffective weapon in
    	most cases because of the fact that they break so easily.
    	One would probably have more luck trying to stab someone with
    	a newspaper.
    
    	Please don't generalize about "most women" based on the levels
    	to which *some* women might sink in 'worst case' scenerios.
    
    	Women are not all alike.

    	RE:  .19
    
    	>  She assaulted him. She should be prosecuted and convicted
    	>  and sent to prison, just like a man would be!
    
    	Right.  Tell that to my ex-husband's second wife who had him
    	arrested at least 5 times for assault (and she had *witnesses*
    	and pictures of the severe facial and bodily injuries she
    	sustained from him.)  He never spent more than a single night
    	in jail for any of it.
    
    	Tell it to the family of the two children I know who were
    	sexually assaulted by a white heterosexual male co-worker of
   	their father's.  The man pleaded guilty to felony child assault
    	and spent 45 days of a 90-day sentence in the county facility.
    
    	At the sentencing hearing of the child molester, I saw a young
    	woman get sentenced to two years in the state prison for *trying*
    	to pass two bad checks worth less than $200.

    Re .20 (Women using nails)
    
    My own mother has attacked me with her nails several times.  I've still
    got a couple of scars none of which is less than 6 years old, when I
    learned to remove myself from her presence when she was angry at me.
    Care to come over and look?
    
    And most women I know will use whatever is available to them in
    a fight - fingernails included.
    
    Elizabeth

    Sue, What Gives????
    
    OK, so she Generalized, SORRY!  That is NOT the ISSUE HERE!
    
    On the subject....
    
    Jes a thought.... Maybe she holds the child knowing that he would
    NEVER strike her while she held him/her???  
    
    I admire this gent for keeping such a cool head during such an ordeal.
     It must be hell on the child to witness this.... I wonder what
    happens to the child when noone is around????  If she can be so
    vicious toward him, whats to say that she is or is NOT like that toward
    the child?
    
    This is just A THOUGHT, I am NOT making assumtions here, jes wondering
    out loud...
                                                      
    

    
    
    re.23
    
    That is the scarey thing.  I have not had the oppurtunity to see
    her without him being there.  So I really do not know what she
    would do or even if she does do anything.  However, since she
    moved out we have been noticing quite a few cuts and bruises.\
    Now she is only two and quite rambuncious so this could be due
    to that.  BUT she never had as many as she does now while they
    were living in the same apartment.  It is one thing to beat on him,
    but she knowingly subjects her child to this violence.  One would
    question whether she actually does anything to the child while noone
    else is around to witness it.  Personally, it is my opinion that
    her including her child in the fights is a form of child abuse.

.20    �One would probably have more luck trying to stab someone with a 
       �newspaper. 
    
       Whilst I take your point about the usefullness of fingernails as
       weapons, it is quite possible to kill somebody with a tightly
       rolled newspaper, using yawara style attacks.

       /. Ian .\

>>>                               -< no one knows >-
>>>    re.23
>>>    her without him being there.  So I really do not know what she
>>>    would do or even if she does do anything.  However, since she
>>>    moved out we have been noticing quite a few cuts and bruises.\
>>>    Now she is only two and quite rambuncious so this could be due
>>>    to that.  BUT she never had as many as she does now while they
>>>    were living in the same apartment.  It is one thing to beat on him,


	now wait a minute!!  My son is almost two, and he has
	alot more cuts and bruises in the last few months also..
	They are just beginning to run/get into everything/climb/etc...
	
	I'm not going to say any more, or I'll definatly lose my cool.

	/Robin
	

re; .23

>    Jes a thought.... Maybe she holds the child knowing that he would
>    NEVER strike her while she held him/her???  

My first thought, exactly.

When I think about the implications of the child witnessing this, I get dizzy.  
The story of the child molester that got a slap on the wrists while a 
check-bouncer got the full whip-on-the-back treatment...geez, is that a 
statement of where our values are?

Screwed up, it is, that a woman, a PERSON, as manipulative as this violent Mama 
seems to be, gets first dibs on screwing a kid's perspective...

re; .26, Robin


>	now wait a minute!!  My son is almost two, and he has
>	alot more cuts and bruises in the last few months also..
>	They are just beginning to run/get into everything/climb/etc...
	
Robin, I'm sure you're not the kind of parent who picks up your child and then 
physically assaults your husband with child still in arms.

Cuts and bruises can come from a lot of different sources; from running around, 
from being beaten, or even from acting out scenes of violence in "play", to 
help overcome those helpless feelings that happen when you're made to watch.

    re: .19/.21
    
    Suzanne's got it right.  I she receives equal treatment, the 
    statistics say that, if arrested, she probably be released on 
    personal recognizance, plead guilty to a lesser charge (though
    in this case it sounds like there wouldn't be enough evidence
    for the state to bring an indictment, much less try the case), 
    and receive a (very short) probated sentence.  See you on the
    streets. . .
    
    re: some others 
    
    I don't find the assault too surprising, because I was raised with 
    a *very* strict injunction to "Never hit a girl, Son, especially 
    your sister".  Knowing this, my sister, some 2� years younger but 
    bigger and heavier nonetheless, used to take regular pleasure in 
    pummeling me.  I'd cover up as long as I could but you can't block 
    every shot everywhere so, after a while I'd lose my cool and whack 
    her one.  Being nobody's dummy, she'd then run to Mom (or worse, Dad) 
    yelling how I'd hit her; naturally they were duty-bound to apply 
    some corporeal re-education to my forgetful self.  Sheesh!  In any
    case, the spirit of those days has carried through and it would
    require a clear and present mortal danger before I would strike back 
    at a woman; fortunately for me, I'm bigger now and I can cover and 
    block with greater efficiency.
    
    Steve

    
    re. 26
    
    Robin,  
    
    	I did not come out and say that this woman was abusing her
    child.  If you go back and read my message I stated that the cuts
    and bruises could be due to her age.  So please don't take offense
    of my statements.  I understand that 2 year olds are prone to such
    things.  But one can not ignore the fact that she has been recieving
    more than normal lately.  There may be many reasons for this and
    yes one of them could be that this woman is inflicting them on this
    child.  And given her past background (which has always included
    violence) one really has to question her for the safety of the
    child.  Also you have to remember that I am the one that knows
    this woman and what she is like.  Even given the little information
    I have been providing,  it would be terribly unfair of you to assume
    that you or anyone else knows the whole story.

    re .o
    
    	I feel for your brother, being a divorced and weekend father.
    I think he should try to exercise his rights, as a parent and go
    for full custody.  One thing that people forget is that this state
    has an ERA, and that it works for the benefit of men as well as
    women.  You are right to seek help for your family's plight, and
    there are many groups which could help you advocate this issue.
    Maybe if you contacted the ACLU, they could put you in touch with
    the right group to assist you.
    
    	I don't see what discussing the case of some child molester
    who didn't get his just punishment has to do with this difficult
    and painful situation.  The original request was for some help and
    guidance, and too many of you are sitting back agape at this all
    too common situation.  Women are capable of violence and our society
    needs to recognize the need to treat battered men the same as battered
    women.  Today's society recognizes the needs of battered women and
    has started to move to provide services such as safe shelters and
    easily procurred legal services.  We need to throw off the stereotypes
    of society, and realize that the cycle of abuse includes women,
    and that they can be the abuser as well as the abused.  Show this
    situation some understanding and compassion, and maybe offer some
    constructive advice to help them, that's the forum this notes file
    is supposed to provide.  
    
    	Oh, I feel so much better now, I hope your brother finds some
    solace from his anguish by your seeking answers and advice.  Part-time
    parenting is never easy, but he sounds like a man who loves his
    daughter very much, and that will make it worthwhile!!!

    re:31
    Er...ah, the guy is the originators boyfriend not brother. Besides
    what difference does it make if we bring abuse of any kind into
    the note ? The issue has been beaten to death already, and we still
    don't have the full picture because we are only getting one side
    of the story, which is from the girl friends prespective. The only
    advice thats any good is for the guy to let his lawyer handle it.

    Jim

    Re: .32
    
    I agree - I don't see any benefit from holding a trial in this note.
    
    				Steve