Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    It's obvious that Jim has no interest in his daughter (since he's
    the father I'm using that term, not to imply anything else). I think
    that nothing will be gained by trying to "introduce" her to his
    family at this point. You seem to have your life together and a
    supportative family on your side which really helps. Previous to
    coming to DEC, I worked with a woman in a similiar situation to
    yours. Some men may be scared off by your young child, or by the
    possibility of an instant family, but they are probably not worth
    your time anyway. You sound like a "together" woman, and I respect
    your convictions. Good luck.
    
    Eric

    Just a reminder - if you use SEND/AUTHOR to send a reply, you must
    be reading the note whose author you are going to reply to.  In
    this case, it is the base note.  Of course, since I posted the note
    for the anonymous contributor, you can also just SEND the message
    to me.  If you are positioned on a reply and use SEND/AUTHOR, your
    message will go to the author of the reply!  (A few months ago I
    got a VERY interesting mail message that was definitely not intended
    for me in this manner...)
    
    Of course, replies to this note are also welcome.
    
    				Steve (co-moderator)

    You sound like a very strong and smart woman!  I don't think there
    is anything wrong with a "single by choice" parent.  So many marriages
    end in divorce anyway, leaving the lives of the children in turmoil,
    yet most of them turn out just fine.  I applaud your "taking charge"
    of the situation and doing what *you* want.  Your child is loved,
    wanted, and has a mother who cares deeply for her welfare.  What
    more could she possibly need.  It sounds like Jim wouldn't have
    been able to make that lifelong commitment to your daughter, even
    had he opted to maintain contact.  Who needs him?
    
    I do, however, think he probably thinks about it.  Who wouldn't?
    Even if he is immature now, someday it will dawn on him that he
    has a daughter out there somewhere.  On whether you should contact
    his parents, I think you should.  I wouldn't recommend just showing
    up or anything like that, but maybe a letter telling them about
    their grandchild, explaining your non-relationship with their son,
    that kind of thing.  I'd leave it open-ended, letting them know
    where they can reach you if they decide to, telling them that you
    don't "want" anything from them, just for them to know and make
    the choice whether or not they want to be involved in her upbringing.
    You may never hear from them again, but at least you will have given
    them a chance.
    
    One unrelated question: What's the deal with Rh negative blood?
    I have it also, but was never sure what it meant.
    
    Stacie

    
    
    re: 3
    
    >So many marriages end in divorce anyway, leaving the lives of
    chilren in turmoil, yet most of them turn out just fine.
    
    Sorry but this really galls the hell out of me.  I was a child
    of a single parent Not by choice.  The children DO NOT have a
    choice!!!!!  Do you know what it is like to go to a Father/Daughter
    function with an uncle or a grandfather when everyone else is
    there with their fathers?  Do you know the pain one feels 
    constantly having to explain over and over again that you
    do not have a father?  
    
    I find your comment really interesting.  To date there have
    been no studies on the effects of single parenthood on children
    because the "acceptance" of this phenomenon has just recently
    begun to be felt.  So now we have alot of kids who are growing
    up with the majority of them having no father.  The studies
    have not been done because these kids are not adults yet.
    So unfortunately, we will have to wait quite a while to see
    the results of single parenthood by choice.  I can give you a
    clue about some of the results because I went through this.
    
    I was lucky enough to be raised in my grandparents house by
    my mother and a very large, loving extended family.  So
    basically I turned out ok.  However,  there are many things
    that I have  problems with as an adult which I feel were
    caused by growing up in a single parent household.  The
    most important thing is how I see relationships with men.
    I have two brothers who were the only role models for males
    besides my grandfather.  It was very hard learning what
    role men play in society and daily life.
    
    I was always afraid of men because I did not have a bond with
    a father.  And I beleive that this father/daughter bond is
    vital.  I also believe that my brothers suffered from lack
    of a male role model.
    
    There are some pluses, though I am not sure these are due
    to single parenthood, I am a very indepent individual.
    I just graduated from Northeastern with an engineering degree.
    I have been lucky to get where I am, but all of it was done
    on my own.  Maybe my mom was able to focus on us more because
    she did not have a man around to take up her time.  I don't know.
    Another plus was that you can finagle a mother almost into anything
    whereas a father is harder to con.  But that also works against
    you because whatever mom said was golden.  There was no other 
    parent to turn to.
    
    I do not agree with raising a child alone by choice. I also
    understand that due to certain circumstances some people do
    not have any choices.  However I feel that these women who
    are knowingly having children without being married or who plan
    not to have the childs father around are doing a great harm
    not only to their children but also to society in general.
    Remember,  these kids are going to be the ones in charge
    of taking care of us when we get older.  It scares me
    to think of that.  Well enough of this. I hope any woman
    who reads this and wants to have a child on her own will
    consider the effects on the child before she considers
    her wants first!

1)  If you were Jim, what would your feelings be towards me, towards Annie?
    Or do you think he even cares?
    
    First this is a difficult question, because I don't know what Jim felt
    when he was with you. I know I could love a person in a very short
    amount of time, and love is the only condition I would sleep with a person.
    In the case of Jim, being he's not around anymore it safe to say he
    did not love you. 
    
    I couldn't imagine living life without the children I have fathered.

2)  Annie has brought so much joy, love and happiness to my parents (their
    first and only grandchild), I sometimes wonder if I should try to even
    contact Jim's parents.  Annie may be their only grandchild, too.
    Opinions?

    Another tough one, but I would go with yes, but first find out if
    Jim has told them, so you might know what to expect.
    
3)  If and when I meet someone I plan to marry and he wants to adopt Annie,
    should I even try to contact Jim or just get around it if I can legally?

    Check out legal options first.
    
4)  Not that I would ever change my mind, but -
    I will NEVER sue Jim for child support unless _he_ decides he wants
    visitation rights.  (We're doing fine on our own, thank you!)  Am I 
    (in your opinion) wrong for _not_ suing for child support?  In my state
    (Texas), it is "required" by law.  I doubt that at this late date, Jim
    would hardly be looking for me to see his daughter -- he's had two years
    with no contact.

    I would say stay away from Jim.
    
Any other opiniions or comments?
    
    I'm glad you kept your child and I hope God blesses you and gives you 
    and Annie much happiness. The guy you do marry will be lucky I'm
    sure.

Jim

    RE:247.4
    
    Sorry we don't agree, but my comment is not just conjecture.  I,
    too am a child of a single parent household, and I think I have
    turned out "just fine" (if I do say so myself).  My parents divorced
    when I was 5 and my brother was just a year.  Even back then, I
    remember missing my Dad and giving my mother a hard time about it.
    I guess I am lucky to have a mother who is very strong emotionally
    and held our family together.
    
    I did begin to see my father when he moved back into the area (he
    flew me across country to see him once shortly after they separated)
    and my father and I had a perfectly good relationship.  Still, he
    lived an hour away and I did feel the pain you are talking about.
    I have grown up with a lot of insight that other children may not
    have had.  My mother worked hard to support us, but has no regrets.
    Because of that, I know the value of a dollar.  I was always showered
    with love and affection by all of my family members, and find myself
    with (what I think) is a healthy attitude toward relationships. 
    Being raised in a single parent household has made me independent.
    I saw my mother "move mountains" to raise us alone, and I have the
    self-esteem and confidence to know "I can do anything."
    
    Also, I have seen divorce and know that it's not anything I ever
    want to go through.  I have a wonderful SO that I have been with
    for 2 years, but am in no hurry to marry him or anyone.  I don't
    see anything wrong with waiting for years, if it takes that, to
    be absolutely sure.  When/if we do get married, I want to grow old
    with him (doesn't everybody?).
    
    I guess I'm just lucky that we "turned out just fine."  What I do
    know is that if the love and the will is there, a woman can provide
    her child with everything that child needs to grow up happy and
    well adjusted.  There are a lot of unwanted children out there.
    What's wrong with someone who *wants* a child going out and having
    one.  
    
    Stacie

    re: .3
    
>    One unrelated question: What's the deal with Rh negative blood?
>    I have it also, but was never sure what it meant.
    
    First, the short answer.  People who are Rh-negative do not
    have something in their blood which Rh-positive people do have.
    Because maternal and fetal blood are exchanged across the placenta,
    it is highly likely that an Rh- woman with an Rh+ fetus will be
    exposed to this substance.  When this occurs the mother's immune
    system will produce antibodies to destroy this foreign substance.
    The Rh factor is located on the surface of red blood cells,
    which are destroyed at the same time.  These antibodies can also
    cross the placenta and attack the fetal red blood cells.  The results,
    as you might imagine, are not very good.
    
    Now, for the long explanation.
    
    There are three Rh factors which can be present in human blood -
    C, D, and E.  A person who is Rh-positive (Rh+) has the Rh-D
    factor, known as Rh-D antigen, in their blood; a person who is Rh-
    negative (Rh-) has no Rh-D antigen.  The antigen, if present, is
    located on the surface of the red blood cells.
    
    When a person receives blood containing an antigen not present in
    their own blood their immune system will produce antibodies to
    destroy the antigen.  The immune response to the first exposure
    to a given antigen is relatively slow.  Once the body has produced
    antibodies to an antigen it "remembers" that antigen, and upon
    subsequent exposure it is able to produce the antibodies much faster.
    
    Now, let's consider a pregnant woman who is Rh-.  Fetal blood cells,
    including the Rh-D antigen, will cross the placenta and enter the
    maternal circulation.  If the fetus is Rh- there is no problem with
    Rh incompatibility.  If the fetus is Rh+ the presence of the Rh-D
    antigen will stimulate production of antibodies by the mother's
    immune system.  These antibodies can cross the placenta and enter
    the fetal circulatory system, resulting in the destruction of fetal
    red blood cells.
    
    If Rh incompatibility is known to be a problem, both the mother
    and fetus can be monitored during the course of the pregnancy.
    In many cases the first pregnancy will be successful, although it
    is sometimes necessary to induce labor early to minimize exposure
    of the fetus to the Rh antibodies.  Subsequent pregnancies are
    more critical because the mother has already been sensitized to
    the Rh antigen and her immune system will produce the antibodies
    much faster during subsequent exposures.  Without medical intervention
    there is a high risk of miscarriage or of the fetus being born
    with a very serious condition known as erythroblastosis fetalis.
    
    The usual method for handling this situation is to inject the mother
    with a large dose of antibodies to the Rh-D antigen immediately
    after delivery or abortion of an Rh+ fetus.  These antibodies destroy
    the fetal Rh+ blood cells circulating in the mother's body before
    her own immune system has a chance to produce the antibodies.  If
    successful, this therapy reduces the risk of subsequent pregnancies.
    
    	- Jerry

    Re: Desirability of single-mothers-by-choice.
    
         I hate to seem negative on this, but at least you'll have my
    honest feelings.  As an actively-dating guy, who does not consider
    marriage to be out-of-the-question, I will do my best to avoid single
    mothers.  This is simply a matter of personal choice, and not a
    slur on the character of these women.  My opinion is mainly due
    to a wish to develop a good relationship with the mother before
    starting a family.  With a pre-existing child, there is no chance
    to do this.
    
                                 Greg

    
    
    re: 6
    
    	By the term "single-mother-by choice",  I mean women who
    choose to have a child without providing that child a full-time
    father.  I do not mean parents who have divorced or are sigle
    due to the death of a spouse.  There is a very big difference 
    here.  In the first case,  the parent makes a choice.  Usually
    in the later two cases no choices are made, it just happens.
    I feel that parents who are forced to raise their children
    alone due to divorce/death are not single parents because
    they at one time were able to provide their children with both
    parents.  Whereas the single mothers by choice do not provide
    their children with both parents.  This I feel is terribly unfair
    to the child.
    
    	I was raised in a single parent household because my father
    passed away.  I was however lucky enough to have known him even
    if it was a short period of time.  The majority of single mothers
    by choice have no intentions of allowing the fathers to be fathers
    to the children they are responsible for helping create.  Again,
    I feel this is wrong and not fair to the child.  I have nothing
    but respect for parents who can provide a loving healthy environment
    for their children after death of a spouse or divorce.  My mom did
    a great job considering the strains put on her.  I have nothing
    but respect for her and I admire her strength to carry on.
    
    	I guess the point I am trying to make is that EVERY child
    is entitled to be raised and loved by both of it's parents not
    just one.  Parents who do not intend to provide their children
    with this right are in my opinion dueing harm to their children.
    
    Mi

    Re: "Single Mother by Choice"
    
    I think that the "choice" here is to choose between 1) having the
    baby and keeping it, therefore raising the child alone, without
    the support (financial or otherwise) of the father; 2) giving up
    the child at birth to be adopted; or 3) abortion.
    
    Many, but not all, "single mothers by choice" PLAN to have a baby
    totally on their own.  Some of them research the potential fathers
    and choose a "father" based on some qualifications that the
    "mother-to-be" has decided on; some of them have artificial
    insemination; others plan to adopt a child and remain single.
    
    As a "single mother by choice," with much the same situation as
    in .0, I have kept my child and raised her as best as I could. 
    My decision was more of a moral decision, as I do not believe in
    abortion FOR ME, and would not even consider giving up a baby that
    I had carried for nine months.  I, too, do not have contact with
    my baby's father, but that is his choice, not mine.
    
    Cat
    
    

    I also am from a single parent family.  My father and mother separated
    when I was about 4 years old and I never saw or heard from him again.
    All I can say is that I had considerable difficulty explaining to my
    friends when they asked "Where is your father?".  Since I didn't know,
    I never knew what to say.  I could go into a lot more detail here, but
    I wouldn't want to send you all to sleep.  Anyway, I swore that if I
    ever had any children, they would never have to ask where their
    father was and why did he leave.  A promise that, so far, I have
    managed to keep. 
                    
    You mentioned about dating a single mother.  Let me say that if
    I were single, I wouldn't have any problem dating a single mother.
    I would have considerable difficulty with the thought of marrying
    a single mother.  The reason?  Well, I did marry a single mother
    who had three children.  We are still married, but the difficulties
    I had with trying to establish a relationship with the children,
    and trying to fit into the mother and children relationship, and
    putting up with the abusive ex-husband, and his family was really
    more than I would like to go through again.  Admittedly, not all
    step parent relationships are that difficult, but I wouldn't want
    to take the chance again.  (Oy, the stories I could tell!)
                                                                     
    You have been dealt some difficult cards to play.  I wish you and your
    daughter all the luck and happiness, which you surely deserve in full
    measure.  You sound like the kind of woman who can get it done. 
      
    Mike
            
    ps:
    BTW: Sue the jerk.  I am sick of men who refuse to live up to their
    responsibilities.  Did I call this guy a man?  Excuse me.  A slip
    of the tongue.  Certainly, you had your share in creating your daughter,
    but so did he.  Why should you shoulder all the burden.
    

    A similar situation arose in my family.
    
    A cousin got a woman pregnant under similar circumstances as when
    you and Jim created Annie.  She wrote to him, he wrote back telling
    her to have an abortion.  She wrote back refusing such.
    
    His mother found the letters, questioned him about the situation,
    he had no intention of marrying or forming any sort of relationship
    with this woman.  She also contacted the woman, supported her
    emotionally and financially through the pregnancy, paid part of
    the child's expenses (not her responsibility, since John was of
    age when this occurred), and in general made the life of her grandchild
    and her grandchild's mother better, as well as enriching her own
    life -- she obviously loved the boy.  His sister (an avowed lesbian
    who will probably never have children of her own) also got involved
    with the baby, and also contributes to his support.
    
    Since then, John has married another woman, they don't have much
    to do with the child (including financial support - which is being
    given out of the goodness of his mother's and sister's hearts).
    
    I think you should contact the family of your baby's father.  Just
    because he is a no-good, his family may be much better.
    
    Elizabeth                          

    I'd be cautious.
    
    After I told Kat's father I didn't want to have an abortion, his
    mother called me one night at about 11:00 and went on for an hour
    and a half about how if I didn't have an abortion I'd be ruining
    her life, and Mark's life, and the baby's life, and if I thought
    it was wrong to kill an unformed fetus, it was nothing like the
    wrong of destroying all these lives and future happiness and God
    would never forgive me. 
    
    She never once said anything about MY life.  
    
    She did say a few things about how a slut like me managed to
    seduce a good honest young man like her son.

    And this wasn't the only time she said things like this.      

    I won't say don't contact your child's grandparents; they might
    well wish to know.  But be careful and don't be surprised at a
    nasty reaction.
    
    --bonnie

    I wouldn't do it....
    
    			Steve

    Re. .8
    
    I am a single mother, my daughter is 6 years old, and has NEVER
    had any contact at all with her father or his family.  That was their
    choice, I mean they decided that 6 years ago, and now it is my choice
    that there will NEVER be contact.  Anyways, I just get so tired
    of mens' attitudes about dating a single/mother.  I mean the first
    things that goes on in their head is being a father... I can say
    that my daughter doesn't have a father, (well, by blood yes :-),
    but she does have enough 'father figures' in her life.  She has
    My father (which we live with, and have lived with since day one),
    my brother, who has made her his beneficiary to his home, bank account,
    stocks, and insurance... and my brother-in-law, who even though
    he has two childeren of his own, would bend over backwards for his
    neice.  So I guess that what I'm trying to say here, is that just
    because a woman is a single/parent, don't assume that she is dependent
    for a husband, or a father for her  childeren.  You could be letting
    some pretty great woman slip through your hands.  I for one want
    marriage some day for ME, and even if I do get married someday,
    my daughter will keep my maiden name, she was born with that name,
    and its nothing to be ashamed of... 
            

    
    
    BUT-you and your daughter are still a package deal.  Therefore,
    any man who becomes involved with you would need to consider his
    feelings about 'instant fatherhood', because basically that is
    one of the things you have to offer.
    
    I've been thru the single mother phase myself.  I'd rather know
    right up front that a man is not interested in sharing his life
    with my child.
    
    Deb
    

       
       
       	The "instant fatherhood/motherhood", depending on the situation,
       is a VERY difficult one to learn to cope with.. Personally, I have
       tried to cope with it in some past relationships but have decided
       that it's not for me.. It wouldn't be fair to all parties
       especially someone elses child..  I've seen it work, but it always
       presents difficulties, and nowadays, in my opinion, it's another
       strain on an already stressful situation.. (relationships)  It IS
       for some people.. But not for me. And believe me, I KNOW what I 
       could be missing!!!!
       
       	It takes a VERY flexible person to be an instant parent or
       parent-type figure.
       
       						mike

    I was a single parent for several years, so this discussion brings
    back memories, many of them painful. 

    If you're going out with a single parent, it's a mistake to think
    of yourself as a parent figure from the first date.  As .18 says,
    it puts additional stress on the relationship at its most
    vulnerable time. In addition, the child simply isn't going to
    accept that you have a right to walk in and start bossing her
    around, or cuddling her, or any of the other things her natural
    mother or father would have the right to do.  If she's older than
    a few months, she's old enough to know you *aren't* her mother or
    her father. 
    
    Try thinking of the child as a young person that you need to get
    to know instead of someone you have to be an instant parent to.
    Treat her with the same respect you'd show your lover's mother, or
    sister, or roommate.  Give her some space to tell you, by words or
    by actions, how she'd like you to relate to her.  For example, if
    you're dating a single mother who lives with her parents, the
    grandfather may provide all the father-figure the child needs; she
    may want a friend instead.  There's nothing wrong with this. 
    
    She may never call you "Daddy" or "Mommy".  There's nothing wrong
    with that either.  It doesn't mean that she doesn't love you,
    respect you, appreciate you.  My daughter, now 14, refers to Neil
    as her father, but addresses him as "Neil" -- and we've been
    living with him for ten years. 
    
    The important thing is NOT, NOT, NOT that you're ready or able to
    play the role of Father Knows Best or Loving Mother.  The
    important thing is to develop an honest relationship with the
    child based on who you are and who the child is.  And give it time
    -- it takes trust and confidence in your consistency to build any
    kind of intimacy. 
    
    --bonnie

    re: -.19
    
    I couldn't have said it any better.  A very sensitive bit of advice.
    
    Mike

    Their is something eles to be considered when dating a women with
    kids. that is if you get married and later divorce you could wind
    up with custody of her kids, now if you really love kids like I
    do this is fine, but if you have a problem with that you have to
    consider it.

    RE: the last reply...
    
    There is less to that than meets the eye... first.. the man who
    married the lady with the kids would have had to adopt the kids
    first.....  you forgot to mention that small piece... and if he
    adpoted them, then the kids are his too... so why shouldn't he be
    able to get custoday of his own kids?
    
    Not flaming.... just *nit*ing....
    
    Gale

    your right, adoption is a prerequesit(sp)