Conference quark::mennotes-v1

       Some of the notes reminded me of Kate Millett's "coming out"
    (in literature and public speaking) in the 70's.
    
       I'm a heterosexual and value the male-female kind of sex and
    sexual orientation.  I value those relationships and 'marriages'
    over other alternatives.  I also value childen.
    
       I've read that people who differ in sexual orientation have
    different psychological makeups.  I deal with people on an indiv-
    idual basis and usually find that the stereotypes that are commonly
    attached to different people (or groups) do not reflect reality.
    
       "..I never discussed how they made that decision because I
    felt it would be rude to ask."
    
       It used to be impolite to ask people (ie at a party) "What do
    you do" (for a living) ?   Now it's almost automatic.
    
       Perhaps "rudeness" in such cases is relative though I rather
    doubt it.  I think that when people get to know you to the point
    where they trust you (ie won't be judgemental, or are at least
    tolerant/understanding), then they start to open up about such 
    things.
    
       It takes courage to talk about sexual orientation and feelings,
    particularly when phobias are present in a Society like the U.S.
    
       I've had people tell me things that I wouldn't dare ask about.
    
       Hearing people out is the only way to feel anothers World, to
    link minds together, to grow in this fragile World together.
    
       I've felt rewarded many times over with the discussions I've
    had with people of any orientation.
    
    
                                                       Russ P.

re: .0

I thought this was MENNOTES.  What does this have to do with MEN?...
..other than the fact that we have to deal with WOMEN.  (<== NOT meant
sarcastically, thank you.)

Kip (who-would-flip-out-if-he-discovered-his-wife-in-bed-with-another-woman)

    Re: .2
    
         You mean that in a country as great as America, a man can't
    be a lesbian if he wants to?  

    It seems to me the base note asked for men's reactions to and feelings
    about lesbians and bisexuals.  Sounds like a perfectly reasonable
    topic for MENNOTES.  I haven't read the relevant topic in WOMANNOTES
    so I don't know just what was discussed there.
    
    Let's try this...  what if there was a woman you were friends with
    and you learned that she was a lesbian.  Would that matter to you?
    What if you had been attracted to her?  Would that make a difference?
    
    I've often heard that many men, encountering a woman who seems to
    be uninterested in men (or at least THAT man), will tend to assume
    the woman is a lesbian, without any other evidence.  It makes the
    rejection easier to take, I guess, than if she had shown a preference
    for another man.  Or would it?  I've also heard that men have a
    hard time dealing with an SO who leaves them for another woman,
    though I wonder if this doesn't perhaps occur in soap operas far
    more often than real life.
    
    				Steve

    I find women attractive, physically, emotionally, and intellectually. 
    So do these women.  Makes sense to me ....

    - Dave
    

    
    	Yeah, they like the same things we do. |^)
    
    	Todd

    
    	****** Personal Opinion ******
    
    	 I think they're sick and in need of help... fast!
    
    	However, it is their life and it's their choice how they
    	chose to live it, I can deal with that.

    re: .7
    
         What leads you to have the opinion that women who wish to be
    or are lesbians are sick and need help?
    
    ASP

    
    	RE: .8
    
    	What leads you to believe that it is normal to want sex with
    	a same sex partner?
    
    	G_B
    
    
    	

    Re .9:
    
    Do you truly believe that the only alternatives are "normal" and
    "sick"? Does this apply to every human trait, or only to sexuality?
    
    -b

    re .9
    
    Well, if by "normal" you mean "conforming to a usual or typical
    standard," and you can prove that you/we/society have a standard
    whereby it is non-conforming to be a lesbian, I guess you're right
    - it isn't normal.  So what?
    
    If by "normal" you mean either "of average intelligence and
    development" or "free from physical and emotional disorder" ...
    well, I reckon you won't debate intelligence.  How about development?
    Again, you'd be choosing a standard that's defined by you, us, or
    our society, and my guess is that that standard would be pretty
    irrelevant.  How about "free from physical and emotional disorder?"
    Could you give examples of physical or emotional problems that lesbians
    typically display?    
    

    re: .9
    
         Homosexuality doesn't exist only in humans, there are other
    animals (seagulls and rats are two that I can think of) that are
    known to engage in homosexual activities.
    
         Also I don't believe that homosexual desires to the point of
    sharing sex with a same sex partner are "normal" in the statistical
    sense of the word.  However I do believe that it is possible that
    they are normal in the sense of being a reasonable genetic outcome
    approximately 10 percent of the time.
    
         Now that I've answered yor question will you please answer
    mine?
    
    ASP

Even in a land as conservative as Colorado, there are women who are discovering 
their bisexuality and homosexuality.  A couple of these women happened to be 
friends.  One discovered her bisexuality after I'd known her for a few years.  
Another discovered that she was a lesbian (is that supposed to be capitalized?) 
before I'd ever met her.

I discussed it with them, openly and honestly.

Kim said that, for her, she'd been lost in her relationships with men; she had 
never felt comfortable with that setup, although she had tried to conform to 
it.  She said that when a lesbian woman began to take an interest in her, she 
discovered that she returned the interest, and felt like she'd "come home" (her 
exact words).  This happened in her early twenties.  For her, there was 
something much more comfortable, and if you will, "normal" about loving a 
woman.  I observed Kim a lot; she was a member of the country club pool at 
which I was a lifeguard.  She wore teeny bikinis, and got men to buy her drinks 
a lot.  She was very flirtatious.  I found this to be confusing.  I thought she 
was using them.  They were willing and happy.  I was unable to observe much 
more than this.  I do not feel that all lesbians do what Kim did.

Marie said that she got particularly close to one female friend, but was never 
able to get it beyond friendship, although she was aware that she did want more 
than that.  Marie has had good relationships with men, and continues to do so. 
She is about to move in with a man whom she has loved for a long time.  She 
never did take on a female lover, but the desire was there.  Marie and I are 
very close friends; she has a "normal" life in every other way, save childhood 
abuse by her father (which psychologists have come to realize, is more and more 
common throughout the nation; that today's young adults have a surprisingly 
high rate of having been abused by one or both parents, in some way, shape or 
form).

A high-school female, who is now 16, was quoted in the Colorado Springs GAZETTE 
TELEGRAPH as saying, "Last year, bisexuality was in; this year, it's 
witchcraft."  Teens seem to consider bisexuality to be normal.  I'm not saying 
that this applies to all teens, but there seems to be a lot more acceptance of 
it in that age group.

Just some points to ponder...

>>    re: .12   (PSG::PURMAL)
    
>>         Homosexuality doesn't exist only in humans, there are other
>>    animals (seagulls and rats are two that I can think of) that are
>>    known to engage in homosexual activities.
    
    
	Fine, there are some animals that engage in homosexual behavior.
	There are also some that engage in abuse of their offspring, do
	you want to apply that to humans and support that child abuse is
	normal? Why not? Using your method we can also say that x percent
	of the population will be violent, does that mean we should accept
	a murderer as normal? I've yet to hear that one, everyone agrees
	that type of person is sick and needs help.

	I've got some mail on my original reply suggesting that I feel we
	should bash homosexuals. Where did I say that? I defy anyone to
	show me anywhere in that reply where that was even suggested!!!!!
	I stated my OPINION that I feel homosexuality is a sickness, period!
	Agree if you wish, or don't, that is YOUR right. Don't accuse me
	of wanting to bash homosexuals or anything that I never suggested!!
	I made no mention of not wanting to accept them as a person, don't
	assume how I feel about the person without first asking. The issue
	was homosexuality, not gay bashing, which I don't support in any form!
	It is their life and I for one do not feel it is my place to choose
	how they will live it, please don't try to do that to me!

	G_B

    re .14
    
>	Fine, there are some animals that engage in homosexual behavior.
>	There are also some that engage in abuse of their offspring, do
>	you want to apply that to humans and support that child abuse is
>	normal? Why not? ...

    What do you mean by "normal?"  Statistically "average" or in the
    majority?  Or morally acceptable?
    
    Child abuse is obviously not *acceptable* to human beings.  What
    does this have to do with homosexuality?  I guess I'm trying to
    understand your analogy ....
    
>	Using your method we can also say that x percent
>	of the population will be violent, does that mean we should accept
>	a murderer as normal? I've yet to hear that one, everyone agrees
>	that type of person is sick and needs help.

    Well, actually there are quite a few people who would rather put
    murderers to death than give them "help."  Anyways, you say murderers
    are sick.  Yes, obviously they are sick and need help.  They also
    do quite a bit of damage to society.  I still don't understand your
    analogy.
    
    - Dave

    The following reply was contributed by a member of our community
    who wishes to remain anonymous.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    re: .0, et al
    
    Some years ago now, there was a 'cute' bit of humour in the Nashua
    Telegraph. To paraphrase the alleged "Joke of the day": 
    
    "There are two type of people in this world. Normal and Sick, and it is
    the normal who decide which are which. "
    
    In the same time span (now to the topic) there was this man who had had
    an ideal relationship with what seemed to be a really swell woman. (Un
    ?) fortunately, he was homophobic, and made no attempts to mask his
    feelings on this topic. 
    
    In time, it seemd his mate preferred women to his company, so they
    parted their ways .. she to hers, and him to his. I knew him well
    enough to see some visible changes in his attitudes and life style, the
    more prevalent being gettng educated on "How" or "Why" some women
    become lesbians. According to some sources, the procedure is
    reversible, that is, some women who are lesbians turn back to or become
    heterosexual (again ?), to the consternation of their lesbian mates. 
    
    Some lesbians are political lesbians, in that their experiences with
    men are or were so bad (negative) that they want only the company of
    other women; some .. like those described in previous replies, come
    upon this awareness later in life. 
    
    It sounds as though the 'process' of women becoming (aware) of their
    lesbian tendencies is the same (???) as men who become aware of their
    homosexual tendencies. 

    	Re:12
    
    	I agree with you in the sense that I think attraction to the
    same sex is un/ab "normal. 
    	I also understand the analogies you make, but think that you
    pushed a sensitive button when comparing homosexuality to murder.
    Bad choice but interesting analogy. 
    	I would not use the seagull or rat to support an argument to
    consider the normalness of homosexuality. All seagulls do is eat
    refuse and deposit the byproduct everywhere along the coast, sqawk,
    and just be a pain. Rats are the dreaded disease carriers of the
    earth. They are responsible for some of the worst blights of mankind
    and to oneself in their arena is fuel for the argument of opposing
    views.
    	
    	I think the words 'sexual preference' are much better suited
    to the situation of those who chose the same sex. This allows for
    the "preference' to change back and forth as one sees fit. I am
    of the belief that a person chooses a partner of the same sex as
    an experiment and may find some comfort in them, possibly finds
    him/her more exciting because it's "wrong", or uses the relationship
    as revenge to another partner or parents.
    
    	I also believe that the "natural" order of life is male/female
    relationship and anything else is unnatural.
    
    Ken

    re: .12
    
        Giving the example of seagulls and rats as animals that exhibit
    homosexual behaviour was my way of saying that humans aren't the
    only creatures that exhibit this behaviour.  Would you consider
    the creatures that engage in homosexual activities sick?  Is is
    a mental or a physical illness?
    
        I'd like to know what animals engage in abuse of their offspring.
    I can't think of any that do, please enlighten me.  Also murder
    and child abuse are "chosen" activities, or reactions usually motivated
    by external circumstances.  I don't see homosexuality as similar
    to murder or child abuse, the feelings are there and they constitute
    homosexuality.
    
        Excuse me smokers, this isn't a barb directed towards you.
    Smoking is not something that exists in nature in any other creature
    (except for the animals we force to smoke).  And statistically it
    is not the norm for our society.  Should we consider smokers sick
    and suggest that they seek help?
    
        You still have yet to answer my question as to why you think
    that homosexuality is an illness.  I know that this is your opinion,
    but what leads you to this opinion?  I like what Harlan Ellison
    says, "Everyone is entitled to their *informed* opinion".  An opinion
    based on facts which aren't is just as invalid as the 'facts' used
    to form it.
    
    ASP

    In re previous...
    
    The American Psychiatric Association several years ago removed
    homosexuality from the list of conditions that they classed as
    illnesses.
    
    Bonnie

    	
>    	I think the words 'sexual preference' are much better suited
>    to the situation of those who chose the same sex. This allows for
>    the "preference' to change back and forth as one sees fit. I am
>    of the belief that a person chooses a partner of the same sex as
>    an experiment and may find some comfort in them, possibly finds
>    him/her more exciting because it's "wrong", or uses the relationship
>    as revenge to another partner or parents.
    
Interesting theory.  Your reasoning is exactly why I don't use "sexual 
preference" to describe my being gay.  My erotic love for men is not a 
preference, like orange soda is a preference.  To the best of my 
perception and the perception of many lesbian/gay/bisexual people, 
it is an "orientation."

What makes you think that my erotic love is some kind of kinky thrill 
of breaking social norms and that your erotic love is natural, 
beautiful, and permanent?  It sounds like a huge rationalization to 
me.   Besides, to be lesbian/gay/bisexual in the United States today 
is to risk death by gay bashing, bodily harm, loss of jobs, loss of 
loved ones, and loss of housing.  It doesn't make sense to me that 
people would risk these things just to get a kinky thrill out of 
acting "different."  Being gay would have to be pretty permanent and a 
pretty strong part of ones being to risk these dangers.  Otherwise, we 
would have all "switched over" to avoid the grief.

We act different because we _are_ different.  If people are interested 
in showing some respect to lesbian/gay/bisexual people, I'd like to 
suggest that they refer to it as a "sexual orientation."


						--Gerry


PS  I have some articles that might be interesting reading.  I do 
Valuing Differences work in the corporation around 
lesbian/gay/bisexual issues.  I'll post the stuff as soon as I get a 
chance.

      .19 should reference .14, not .12.  Oops.

    Some interesting information on the lives of American Lesbians.
    
    Notice that while this study found that some 41% of lesbains of
    all races said they had been sexually abused (MORE THAN HALF of 
    the Black Lesbians had been raped or sexuallly attacked!!!), that
    was found to be pretty much the SAME as the general [female] population
    of this country.  So many people do not realize the extent of sexual
    violence against women in this country; think about it, one in five,
    one in two Black women...
    
    Reprinted from today's Boston Globe:
    
Lesbian Survey First of Its Kind

The first comprehensive glimpse into the health and lifestyle of
American lesbians shows that nearly one in three homosexual women
would like to have a child, and almost half of these would consider
adoption. 

In what may be the lesbian equivalent of the classic Kinsey Report on
Americans' sexual habits, the 130-page survey provides revealing and
sometimes troubling insights into the lives of an estimated 10 million
homosexual women. 

The federally funded survey, unveiled yesterday at a Boston conference
on lesbian and gay health, was based on extensive questionnaires from
nearly 2,000 homosexual women from all regions of the country. 

The 40-year-old Kinsey report surveyed about 5,000 people of each sex,
with a heavy concentration in the Midwest. 

The new survey shows the desire to become parents is a common one
among US lesbians.  This helps explain the strong feelings in this
community aroused by the foster care policy of Gov. Michael Dukakis,
which implies that homosexuals are less fit to be parents. 

Judging from the study, one out of every six lesbians is already a
mother and nearly a third have been pregnant.  Among black lesbians,
half have been pregnant and 33 percent have at least one child. 

Among those who said they would like to become pregnant, 61 percent
said they would consider artificial insemination, half of these
preferring a known sperm donor.  One in five said they would consider
having sex with a man to become pregnant. 

Another finding, concerning lesbians' history of sexual abuse, may
spark renewed debate on the roots of homosexual behavior among women. 

"Our data challenge some stereotypes, such as the belief that some
women 'escape to lesbianism' because of early sexual trauma with men,"
Judith Bradford, a research and clinical psychologist at Virginia
Commonwealth University and a coauthor of the study, said in an
interview.  "We don't have any indication of that at all." 

Bradford said this runs counter to her previous beliefs.  "Four or
five years ago, I would have been much less likely to believe that,"
she said of the finding that lesbians had not suffered more sexual
abuse. 

"If women are exploring their lesbian identities, I don't think
they're being driven to it by negative experiences," added Caitlin
Ryan, a Washington-based social worker and the other coauthor. 

The study found that depression and stress are prevalent among US
lesbians, often over money difficulties and concern about losing their
jobs.  Three out of four respondents had sought mental health 
counseling to cope with financial difficulties, discrimination, 
problems with their relationships and other stresses connected with 
their homosexual identity.

One in five respondents reported thinking about suicide and almost as 
many said they had tried to kill themselves.  Dependence on drugs and 
alcohol did not appear to be higher than in the general population -- 
although substance abuse "seems to escalate a great deal around the 
ages of 50 or 55," Bradford said.

The study sample was more highly educated than American women as a 
whole.  Eighty-five percent had some college education compared to 67 
percent of women generally.  They were twice as likely to be in 
professional occupations.

Despite their education and job status, however, their incomes were
not high.  Only 4 percent made more than $40,000 a year and 64 percent
made less than $20,000. 

Fifteen percent said they had lost jobs because they were homosexual.
Half said they had been verbally harassed because of their
homosexuality. 

A sizable fraction -- almost one third -- said that none of their co-
workers knew they were lesbian while only 17 percent said they had
"come out of the closet" to all their coworkers. 

Aside from their very high use of mental health services, lesbian
women did not appear to have unusual medical needs.  However, a
significant fraction reported difficulties dealing with health
providers. 

"More than a quarter are currently assumed to be heterosexual by our
physicians," Bradford told a symposium yesterday at the Park Plaza
Hotel.  Many women said they did not feel comfortable telling their
health providers they were lesbians --- perhaps for fear of alienating
them -- or did not trust them enough to tell them. 

This lack of communication can lead to inappropriate medical care,
said the study's authors and others who counsel homosexual women.
According to the survey, 11 percent had health practitioners "force"
birth control on them. 

"If a woman doesn't take oral contraceptives, she has to worry what
the doctor will assume," said Ryan.  "Also, doctors will say you're
irresponsible if you don't use birth control." 

Black and Latina lesbians may feel especially vulnerable if they
acknowledge their sexual orientation to health providers, some point
out. 

"You don't go into a city emergency room and say you're a lesbian,"
said Marjorie Hill, a black psychologist from New York City.  "But
unless you say who you are, how can you be clear about what you need?"

This may be especially relevant in mental health counseling, Hill
added.  "If you can't say to your therapist or counselor 'My lover is
driving me crazy' but have to say 'I'm having some interpersonal
difficulties,' then how is that person going to be helpful?" 

Ryan and Bradford have recommended to the National Institute of Mental
Health that the government fund training of health professionals about
lesbian issues and increased services for this population. 

    
    "I think the author might mean that sleeping with seagulls and rats
    is a sickness."
    
    Or did I miss something?
    

>    Reply .17 refers to a concept that confuses me--that of the "political
>    lesbian". I remember reading a long article in _Rolling_Stone_ six or
>    seven years ago about "political lesbians"; apparently this is a real
>    phenomenon, but how is this consistent with the idea that people don't
>    choose their sexuality?  

I admit that I don't know a lot about political lesbianism, other than 
what I have read.  So, if I don't quite get it right, somebody please 
correct me.

Yes, I also think that political lesbianism is a choice rather than an
orientation.  Therefore, I don't believe that political lesbianism is
a sexual orientation.  I am not saying that political lesbianism is
"invalid," but I am saying that it is a life-style choice rather than
a sexual orientation.  If I understand correctly, political lesbians
can be heterosexual, bisexual, or lesbian. It doesn't matter.  What
matters is their political conviction that personal relationships
should follow from political believes, not from innate orientation. 

It's not too hard for me to imagine heterosexual women being political
lesbians.  If you believe in the Kinsey scale, then all people are
bisexual.  What we call "gay" is a _predominant_ attraction towards a
member of the same sex; what we call "heterosexual" is a _predominant_
attraction towards members of the opposite sex; what we call
"bisexual" is an equal attraction (no predominance) towards both
sexes.  In other words, gay people can be attracted to members of the 
opposite sex, just not as strongly or as often.  (In five years, I've 
counted 18 women to whom I have been attracted sexually; I can't count 
the number of men!)  The same is true of heterosexuals.

A good friend of mine in college (who is a woman) had a two-year love
affair with another woman.  My friend said that she felt a love for
this other woman, and she wanted to work on a relationship to see if
the love could grow.  She said that the reason for the break-up was
that she was heterosexual and needed to date men. However, my friend
said that she learned a lot about her own femininity, her own
sexuality, and how empowering ("ability to act") woman-only space
could be.  In essence, she said that she learned things from that
woman and that relationship that she feels she could never have
learned from a man. 

In a similar vein, a lot of lesbian/gay/bisexual people chose to marry 
members of the opposite sex for a variety of reasons (children, social 
acceptance, moral objections to homosexual sex, and so forth).  
Although I question how enriching and nurturing those relationships 
can possibly be, I understand full well that they are possible.

I still believe that there are only three sexual orientations:
homosexual, heterosexual, and bisexual (equally attracted to both
sexes).  Even though I believe that sexual orientation is a _very_
strong part of people's personality (gay people who enter into strate
marriages do not often last the whole marriage without breaking up or
without having gay affairs), I also believe that how people act and
live sexually can depend on more than sexual orientation.  It also
depends on social pressure, personal politics, and other factors. 
People can be pretty darn complicated.... 

>    I remember reading somewhere that while gay men often have female
>    friends, it is rare for gay women to have male friends.  From what
>    friends have told me on the subject, and from I have gathered from
>    WOMANNOTES, it does appear that for lesbians, their entire lives
>    revolve around women, that the love of women is a sort of spiritual
>    experience for them.  Men are completely irrelevant to them.  

I think what you are perceiving is somewhat true.  However, I think
that it is changing, primarily due to the AIDS crisis.  Because of the
AIDS crisis, gay men have found that they need lesbians (in
particular, their political experience) in order to fight a system
that doesn't seem overly concerned that they are dying.  The gay men
are learning to be more political and the lesbians are learning that
gay men have things to offer to them politically and socially.  I 
think that gay men and lesbians are finding that we need each other, 
that we can struggle alone, but it would be easier with a partner(s).

I heard it put best by a lesbian friend of mine.  She said that she 
understands and cherishes woman-only space (wimmin's festivals where 
no men are allowed, wimmin-only relationships and families), as long 
as they are not permanently exclusive of men.  My friend feels that 
permanently excluding men (like the Separatist Lesbians) is a 
political dead-end, that men never learn about oppression of women and 
that the women do not learn from the "difference" of men.

My friend sees women-only space as a space in which to recover and
energize that is away from the oppressive enviroment of our society. 
The theory is that if society can lessen the sexism and oppression of
women, women-only space will become less and less _necessary_.  In
other words, there will probably always be women-only space created
for fun, energy, and community (especially for lesbians and bisexual
women), but, if there were no oppression of women, there would be no
need for "healing" wommen-only spaces; those healing places are
created because, currently, women feel they are being hurt by this
society's sexism.


						--Gerry

    re: .27, .17
    
    The concept of "political lesbianism" has very little to do with who
    runs the country. The understanding I have of it came from several
    avowed lesbians in California via another network conference
    (d.<something>.gays). 
    
    What I was told is this: 
    
    At some point, some women feel pushed beyond their tolerance for 'male
    dominism', either through abuse, unfairness in the workplace, critical
    dominism in their church .. whatever .. they are pushed beyond their
    acceptable limit of 'tolerance'. Rather than cut  themselves off  from
    humanity completely, they turn to the group MORE LIKELY to offer them
    support .. each other. 
    
    Some of these women will become disenchanted with 'each other' for some
    of the same similiar reasons, some will feel 'healed', and others will
    let their life be used to make a political statement: "Enough is enough
    .. no more will we be pawns to mens whims and abuse !". 
    
    These are not women, who 'eventually' realize that they are no longer
    turned on by men, and seek women who turn them on. They have been
    turned OFF by mens abuse (of one sort or another) and need relief from
    their despair. 
    
    Whatever can be said for some, can be said here, also, based on what I
    have been informed .. both through private mail and public conferences. 
    
    If the question persists, I would suggest it be moved to the womans
    conferences, as there are (were ?) many uncloseted lesbians who would
    'probably' like to set us straight. 
    
    If this information seems innaccurarate, it is the views of a few whom
    I happen to have known briefly. It is likely that someone will disagree
    .. such is the nature of people. 
    
    Bob Early (aka TONTO::EARLY ... There is none so bigotted as a liberal
    who can see no view but their own.)

    btw .. oh yes, it is also a real possibility that a 'lesbian' will
    return to a heterosexual life, leaving her lover behind ...

    re: .4
    
    How would I feel if I were friends with a woman and learned she
    was a lesbian?
    
    This happened to me about 12 years ago.  We stayed friends...in
    fact, got to be better friends.  We were both going through some
    tough emotional times, and were good support for each other.  She's
    a great lady.  Now I'm married and she's found a partner and we
    don't see much of each other anymore; our lives have gone in
    different directions, but we're still friends.