Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    RE: .0    Has your boyfriend talked with a lawyer yet ???? I would
    feel that a lawyer would be best suited to answer your particular
    question(s) regarding support, etc.
    
    Best of luck with this,
    Paul C.

    
    
    
    $200 a month is not an unusual amount to pay for child support.
    He is financially responsible for this little girl.  Why is he
    'threatening' to refuse to pay?
    
                     Deb
    
    

    
    
    re:1  Unfortunately, the child's point of view really hasn't
          been taken into account.  There are alot of bad feelings
          between the parents, and alot of hostility is being played
          out in terms of the agreement.  I have watched this situation
          from before the child was born.  Here is a little history
          that might help.  First of all, the relationship lasted all
          of six weeks. The mother had just been left at the alter by
          her fiance of 3 years.  The father had just come off of a
          three year relationship.  when the mother found out she was
          pregnant, she wanted to get married.  (as a side note, she
          told the father that she was on the pill, but she wasnt. 
          Still this doesnt excuse his lack of protection.)  The father
          refused to marry her.  At that point she told hime she didnt
          want to have anything to do with him.  He didnt know what
          she was going to do about the pregnancy because she would
          not talk to him.  
    
          She called hime at seven months and told him that she now
          wanted him in her life.  In the seven months they had not
          spoken, so he didnt know what to do. He got involved mainly
          due to pressure from his family who were pressuring for him
          to marry her.  Only he was not in love with her and was not
          going to start a love relationship with her.  He got involved
          to be the father of the child.  At that time he had the child's
          best interest in his mind.
    
          To make a long story short, today each of them are battling
          each other , and the child is being used by both of them to
          hurt each other.  So neither one of them has the child's best
          interest in  their minds.  I try to point this out to him,
          but he doesn't see it the same way.
    
    re:2  yes he does have a lawyer, but the mother is threatening to
          pull me into court so his lawyer reccommended that he not
          discuss the legalities of this matter with me to protectsvsvsvsvsvsvsvsvN~O

    
    
         this is a continuation of .4
    
         As I stated I wasn't allowed knowledge of the legalities
         on advice of council.
    
    re:3  He feels that he shuold not have to pay to "rent" his kid.
          He feels that he should get more time or have to pay less.
          Hopefully it is just talk.  I'm sure his lawyer will advise
          him to pay.  The mother is making twice as much as he is and
          he feels that she should give him more time with his kid or
          that she should have to pay twice as much as he.  I really
          don't know where he is getting this idea from, but given his
         current financial situation, he will not vbe able to live on
         100 a week. most people couldnt live off of 400 dollars/month.

    
    
    Child support is not a 'rental' plan.  (usually speaking) One
    parent will be designated as the 'custodial parent'.  In that
    capacity, the parent provides the child with a home and the
    basic necessities of life.  The non-custodial parent then con-
    tributes to the support of the child.
    
    Reality is simply this.  Children are not cheap.  The income of
    each parent really has no bearing on who pays how much.  The 
    critical issure is, which parent is the custodial parent.  If
    she is the custodial parent, why should she be paying child
    support, when she is already providing a 'home base'?  
    
    Of course it's difficult to live on $400 a month.  It's difficult
    for me to live on MY income, which is considerably more than $400.
    If he were granted custody, how would he provide for his daughter
    on his current income?  If he cannot afford to pay $50 a week to-
    wards her living expenses, how could he afford to support her him-
    self?
    
    You have summed up the situation correctly.  Both parties are using
    the child as a tool for bargaining and having the upper hand.  Now
    money is becoming a method of controlling the situation.  How sad.
    
                      Deb
    
    

    Re: .6
    
         I think he could do well for the child.  As long, that is,
    as SHE kept up her $200 a month payments.  I hope they give him
    a fair chance.
    
                                  Greg

    
    re:244...
    
    All child custody cases are a mess.  In most cases the child(ren)
    become blackmail tools in one way or another.  California has a
    realatively unique arrangement on custody provided the two adults
    live in the same area.  The solution of late is "joint custody"
    which you may think sounds the same in most states but in California
    it means Joint Legal AND Joint Physical custody.  One friend of
    mine has two children that spend two weeks with her and two weeks
    with her ex-husband.  He makes more than her and therefore he takes
    care of the childcare costs while they are both at work, that is
    the extent of his child support.  My friend is happy about the deal
    and the children get to see and grow up with both parents.  I am
    not sure what the big L provides in Mass. I have never lived there
    but it seems worth the work if you care for the children.
    

    Ahh yes!! Children and devorces. I have see many of these senerios
    in my day. I can understand boths part. Both are not playing with
    a full deck of cards too. I have seen the cildren become the pawns
    and the wepons of war. As we all know the big loosers in this nasty
    game are, of course, the kids. I have an outlaw,  (as in in-laws
    and out-laws) who had his wife and three children bolt to a remote
    part of the planet despite restraining orders. Wild! I can only
    state that devorce or what ever is like a bomb that goes off in
    the livingroom. No one knows what was the real cause, but all are
    the victoms of it. And most of all, the kids are the biggest victoms.
    
    	Remember that there is no law like the the outlaws! And sometimes
    when they think that they are doing good for their offsprings they
    only add to the real pain of it all. I have had some real dumb remarks
    made by ours. I can only say I hope euthanasia is a do able when
    my mind goes like that.
    
    	Insofar as love and relationships, I would quote Philip Roth
    with this line from 'Letting Go', 'That a teriable struggle goes
    on in the hearts of men and women when pitty is mistaken for love'.
    Its a funny life. 
    
    George
     

    
    
    RE:9  This is not a divorce situation.  The parents luckily
          never got married.  So the laws are quite different in
          this case.  As far as "in/out-laws",  the mother's
          father insists on no visitation or custody of his
          grandchild by the child's natural father.  Unfortunately
          this problem between two people has exploded into a fued
          between two families

	child support guidelines in mass setup July 1986:  From 
	sheet my lawyer	gave me.

	If father makes			% of pay to child support
	0-$200				At courts descresion
	$200-$500			%25 (of GROSS)
	$500-$1000			%27 (of Gross)
	over $80K a year		At courts descresion

	So, if he "makes" $150. a week, the court will decide how
	much he pays 


	"Proving or admitting paternity does not give the father 
	automatic rights for visitation".  Visitation and child
	support are two completly different issues - thus, usually
	two different court cases.

	/Robin

    .0
    
    	First, wish him all the luck in the world, he's going to need
    it.
    	You said he currently sees his daughter 20 hours a week.  That's
    not too bad.  When I first went through this type of situation,
    I was told I could see my daughter for 4 hours a week, under the
    direct supervision of my ex-mother-in-law!!, until the case went
    to court!!!
    	One third of his paycheck is pretty steep.  I don't believe
    Mass courts will go that high.  As stated previously, 25% of his
    pay is not off base.  Yes, it's a big chunk, but I'm afraid that
    this will be the case for him.  I hope not.  Also, be fore-warned,
    just because he has to pay 20% now, doesn't mean it will always
    be that way.  She can go back anytime and ask for more.
    	The most important thing, in my opinion, is for him to make
    sure he gets at least, joint-legal custody!!!  My ex was granted
    sole custody, joint and physical.  Without it, she can play all
    sorts of nasty games on him.  I know!  Without joint-legal custody,
    he cannot provide medical treatment for the child, unless it's a
    life-threatening situation.  If he wants to have his child's teeth
    checked by a dentist, he can't legally do it without the mother's
    permission.  He can be sued.  
    	Also, if he is not the physical-custodial parent, the onus is
    on him to comply with the visitation schedule.  He will be responsible
    for picking up his child on time and bringing the child back on
    time.  Not a problem, when you live down the street, but in my case,
    my daughter lives 102 miles away.  I pick her up Friday night (102
    miles), come back home (102 miles), bring her back Sunday night
    (102 miles), and then drive home alone (102 miles).  408 miles on
    a weekend to see my daughter.  Try it when it's snowing out.  I
    must put this in here, and if you feel I'm bragging, well, I am
    and I feel justified doing so.  I have, in 3+ years of visitation,
    only missed picking up my daughter once!  That's why I get really
    ticked when I hear of fathers who won't visit their children!!!
    	Anyhow, before I get off on that tangent, let me also say, if
    your boyfriend thinks he can use non-payment of support as a tool
    for arbitration, he's dead wrong!!!  The courts will attach his
    paycheck in the blink of an eye!!  I know of one man who thought
    he could do this, they attached his pay.  He still figured he could
    get away with it, quit his job, stopping the support, and got another
    job in a different state.  Three months later, this guy got bagged!!
    His pay was attached again, and he was hauled into court and ordered
    to make up the back due support.  The courts will not mess around
    with non-payment of support!!  
    	As many people will say, the child is the one who suffers the
    most.  This is, unfortunately true.  But it doesn't have to be that
    way.  I lost alot through the custody dispute because I didn't want
    to put my daughter through the mess.  It's been over 3 years and
    my daughter is a beautiful, happy 7 year old.  She has completely
    adjusted to the situation in a remarkably mature way.  Yes, her
    mother and I still go at it, but I make sure that my daughter is
    not exposed to it.
    	To sum it up, I wish your boyfriend much luck.  Try to prepare
    him for the years of frustation that will come, the sense of loss
    that he will feel, as he will never know the fullness of his child's
    life.  Prepare him for the bitterness, and the heartache he will
    always have, knowing there is only one person in the world keeping
    him from the life he should have with his child.  Prepare him for
    the burning in his throat as he swallows his pride, and deals with
    the frustration that no one will ever understand his loss.  Prepare
    him, for he will have to succumb to the custodial-parent's childish,
    immature, irrational acts, which they use to ascert their supposed
    'power' over him.  Prepare him to deal with all of this, and you
    will still have a man who has lost a piece of his heart - his child,     
    a man who will always and forever know, that because of the failure
    of the two parents to get along together, he and he alone will have
    to face his days, waiting for the next glimpse of his child's face.
    
    Yes, after 3+ years, I am still bitter, I am still frustrated, and
    yes, I still feel alone in dealing with it.  For even if our situations
    seem the same, we are different, and my loss is not the same as
    his.
    
    Yet, our hearts bleed.
    
    His tears will be his only comfort.
    
    Regards and the best of life,
    
    Gene

    
    
    	Well he went into court today figuring to come out with
    much more than he has.  They are taking on half of his paycheck.
    He was not allowed joint custody.  His visitation consists of
    Monday and Wednesday nights from 5-10 and one weekend day 
    from approx 9-6.  He really thought he would be granted joint
    custody.  MY question now is since he doesn't have joint custody,
    what happens if the child is sick while in his care?  In the
    previous message you stated that she can sue him if he seeks
    medical attention without her permission??  What if he is
    unable to reach her to ask for her permission?  It all seems
    so bizzare.  It also seems that the courts also do not have
    the child's best interests in mind.
    
    	Another question that pops into mind is if we marry,
    can she come after our joint finances for more money?
    I have heard this can happen in a divorce situation.
    Any ideas?  If it is true how can I protect my finances
    from her ?  Afterall, the child is not mine and I refuse
    to take responsibility for her.  That sounds awful, and
    I would never do anything to harm his daughter.  In fact,
    we both get along great.  It's just that this woman keeps
    trying to blame her problems on me and has been trying to
    get back at me for trouble she is responsible for.  Therefore
    it is completely within the realm of the possible that
    she would try to get my money as well.
    
    	Also can she restrict the people with whom his daughter
    can be with.  She does not want me near her daughter.  So
    she is using this against the father.  Can she legally
    restrict me from being near her daughter?
    
        They go back to court in October to finalize the
    agreement.  How do I support him emotionally?  Will I
    feel resentment towards his child due to the visitation
    schedule?  I realize he needs to be alone with her, and
    I respect that.  I guess I'm afraid I may become jealous
    of the time he spends with her because it is now a
    definite schedule.  This is getting really long so I will
    stop here.  Thanks for the help
    
    Mi

    
    HOLY SH*#!%*T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    50% of his paycheck????  What kind of a lawyer did he have???
    Or is it because he has a base salary and commission?  
    Anyway you look at it, he took a royal beating with a court
    ordered 50% child support payment.  I just have a hard time
    believing that any court could strap a person like that.
    
    His visitation schedule is a real toilet job!!!!
    When you say she got custody, is that physical, legal, or both?
    It really does make a difference on the legal custody.  
    
    If his daughter gets sick and needs immediate medical attention,
    he is within his right to provide that for her.  However, if he
    wants to take her to see a eye doctor, he had better keep it a 
    secret or ask for permission.  God, that just galls me.  Bizarre?
    I hate to break it to you, but judging by your account of his ex,
    the worst is still to come.
    
    As far as the courts having the child's best interest in mind; sadly
    this is not always so.  With the backlog of cases in Family Court,
    many are more concerned with pushing through the cases.
    
    If you marry, your money becomes your husband's and vice versa.
    You should check with a lawyer first, there maybe a way around it.
    With a 50% hit on his paycheck, perhaps you should look into a
    different lawyer.  Then again, with 50% out of his pay, I doubt
    he'll be able to afford one.  NO!! Not taking financial responsibility
    for his daughter is not awful.  It is smart!!!
    
    Yes, she can restrict who her daughter is exposed to, but only through
    court injunctions and restraining orders.  In order to obtain these,
    she would have to prove that the person was in some manner, detrimental
    to her daughter's well-being.  Here, the burden is on her to prove
    the person unfit.  Believe me, that's difficult.
    
    You ask if you will feel esentment.  Undoubtedly, you will.  The
    time away from you will not only be long, but will be fraught with
    anger, frustration, and bitterness on his part.  Yes, you will have
    it hard, but try to imagine if you had a child taken from you in
    the manner that his ex has taken his daughter from him.  I hope
    he will involve you in his visitations with his daughter.  If you
    are ever to succeed as a family, this is of primary importance.
    Allow him his alone time, especially after he returns from seeing
    his daughter.  Try as best you can to be gentle.  His ego is hurting
    and his ex will try her best to keep it that way.
    
    If it's any consolation, remember time has a way of easing the sting
    he is feeling.  What he really needs to do, I believe, is to attain
    a certain objectivity about the situation.  No easy feat, I assure
    you.  But with the objectivity, comes a certain pragmatic, calculating
    assuredness.  He must really strive to put his ex below a level
    of contempt.  He should try to realize the head games she is playing,
    and as best as the law will allow, rise above them.  Again, let
    me say, from experience, this is a very difficult thing to do. 
    Just when you'd like to bash her in the head, you need to take a
    deep breath, and think.  Think; what is she trying to obtain, is
    it just ball busting or is she trying to gain an additional edge
    on him.  Think; what are his options, if he plays along with her
    games, will it gain him another few hours with his daughter.
    Realize, that all of this leads to unbearable pressure; pressure
    to constantly be aware of the dangers and traps his ex will set,
    and his need to react in a productive way for his daughter's well-being
    and his own.
    
    Try to understand that he has lost a portion of the control of his
    life.  There will be many things he will feel he must do, things
    that seem to be acquiescing to his ex's demands, yet if these things
    gain him quality time with his child, they are absolutely worth
    it.  Be aware, that though his intentions are admirable, the strain
    and humiliation that comes with it, will be very difficult for him
    to bear.  Here is where your support and understanding will be
    invaluable.  
    
    If he is able to reach that level of objectivity, he will realize
    that by showing his daughter his love for her, by showing his daughter
    over time, that he has been able to rise above his ex's stupid games,
    he has won.  He has shown that in all he did, his daughter's well-being
    was foremost in his heart and head.  My ex really tried to do a
    smear job on me with my daughter.  My daughter is only seven.  One
    day she turned around and asked her mother this; "You keep saying
    that Dad's a jerk, but when I'm with him he's the greatest Dad there
    is.  How come you keep calling him a jerk?  I love my daddy."  And
    that, my friend, is enough to keep me going.  No matter what the
    ex may do, if your boyfriend does all he can to keep his daughter
    first in his heart, that little girl will love him forever.
    I know, it's happening for me.
    
    Accept that his daughter will be first in his heart, and you may
    be first in his heart in a different way.  Never, ever try to come
    between him and his child.  That is something I could never tolerate
    and I believe he wouldn't either.  Only you really know.
    
    Do tell him he's not alone.
    It's little consolation, but I'm afraid that's all there is.
    
    Regards
    
    Gene

    
    
    Gene,
    
    	He is really great with his daughter and it is more than apparent
    that she loves him.  However, she is in the physical and legal custody
    of her mother.  Her mother can become very verbally abusive.  Many
    times I've seen her do it to him.  The child is only 2 years old.
    How can she understand right from wrong.  Her father is a good father.
    He loves her dearly, but I'm quite sure her mother bad mouths him
    around her.  
    
    	I am trying to see it from the child's point of view.  My
    father was an alcoholic and was removed from our house.  I was
    daddy's little girl when he wasn't drunk.  But when he moved
    out we would go and visit him or viceversa.  However as time 
    went on it got very uncomfortable to be with him.  This was
    what I was feeling as a child.  My mother never bad mouthed him.
    And they never fought in front of us  unlike this little girls
    situation.  I'm afraid that she will end up believing her mother.
    Or feeling like she just does not want to see her father.
    
    
    	Oh by the way,  He has a good lawyer, but she is a secratary
    at a legal firm.  So she obviously had quite and edge over him.
    Yes he has taken a royal beating.  And the thought that she can
    come back at any time and do it again scares me.  This is not
    a divorce situation,  it is a unwed mother situation.  Are
    the rules the same as far as child support payments?
    
    Mi

	The things I mentioned previously, in regard to his daughter's
affection for him, will always be a struggle to maintain.  He is fighting
off his ex's smear job.  At two years old, a child is just starting to
learn right from wrong at the most basic of levels.  No, she looks to the
consistent parent to show her right from wrong.  That will be the mother
in this case.  But, that doesn't necessarily imply that the father has no
impact.  Quite to the contrary!!  

	I can only tell you that my situation was similar.  It has taken
3 years for my daughter to start to accept things.  She probably will never
get over things completely, but I feel I have helped to reduce the trauma
that comes with this situation.  At two years old, if her father folds and
walks away, that little girl will soon forget him.  This is his decision.
But it is a decision, that once made, must be held to.  If he shows his girl
consistency, constant love, genuine care, she will know it.  Maybe not at
two years old, maybe not at four or fourteen.  But some day that girl will
be a woman, and she will know that above all else, her father loved her
unconditionally.

	As I stated earlier, let her mother bad-mouth her dad!!  You 
certainly won't be able to stop her.  Yes, chances are good that a two
year old will accept from her mother that her dad is bad.  Children are
not automatons, they are not, contrary to popular belief, blank screens
to be written on.  A child will formulate her own beliefs, irregardless
of the mother's smear job, AS LONG AS her father proves, through his actions,
that the mother's allegations are false.  Can you imagine how I felt, when
my 7 year old told her mother, "NO!! Daddy's not a jerk!!"?

	Please do not equate this situation to the one you grew up under.
He is a different man than your father, she is a different daughter.  As
long as your boyfriend understands the full implications, as long as he
maintains a consistent love, through his actions, for her, he will enjoy
as much of her life as is legally possible, AND his daughter will love him
for his efforts.  It may take quite a few years, or it may not.  One day
she will realize the sacrifices he has made, and that will cause her love
for him to blossom.

	As far as the difference between a divorce and this situation, I
don't see much difference.  Because he has legally been identified as the
child's father, he is now legally obligated for her care.  You shouldn't
have any of the complications of divorce, such as; joint property owned,
alimony, other financial ownings/earnings, etc., etc.  But, legally, he
is still accountable for his child.  Yes, the same type of custody actions
that apply to a divorce, will apply to him; irregardless of his marital
status.  If there was contention on the paternity issue, that would be
different.  As you have stated, it is not.

	FWIW - I was denied joint custody.  My ex told the judge we would
only argue, and no decisions would be reached regarding my daughter.  She
also came up with this cockamamie story that I would run away with my daughter.
Well, 3+ years have passed, and I have been an exemplary non-custodial parent.
Guess what?  I'm going back into to court to get joint-legal custody.  And!!
my lawyer thinks this will be a snap.  I've got the track record to prove my
responsibility.  I am also going to get a definitive visitation schedule and
I am going to try to get her to be responsible for half the transportation
involved in the visitations.

	So, do tell him this.  It is entirely up to him what he does with
this situation.  It is in his control.  No, never expect this to be easy,
but DO expect to see the rewards of these efforts some day.  If his daughter
is of primary importance in his life, then he WILL persevere.  Rise above
it!!!  Take control!!!  I wish him well.

Gene

    In child support questions associated with a divorce case, I believe
    that a stepparent's income is taken into account in determining support
    payment levels.   I don't know if that is true in an unmarried parent
    support case such as yours.  
    
    I hope that you can all, in time, reach an understanding that will
    make this situation more bearable.
    
    Mike

>    In child support questions associated with a divorce case, I believe
>    that a stepparent's income is taken into account in determining support
>    payment levels.   I don't know if that is true in an unmarried parent
>    support case such as yours.  
Totally not true. A Step-parents income has no bearing on support payments
what-so ever, at least in Mass.

Ken

    
    
    	Thanks Ken!!!  I am glad that is so because I refuse
    to support this woman.  She makes twice as much as the father
    yet she gets one half of his paycheck.  Then he doesn't know
    what she is spending it on.  That really bothers me, but I
    guess there is no way of finding that out.
    
    	Now she has really started to bad mouth him in front of
    the child.  On the train yesterday, she blurted out "daddy jerk".
    He was very upset over this, and really is having a hard time
    trying to accept it.  I mean he isn't a jerk, but to have ones
    child call one a jerk must really hurt.  She is only two years
    old.  The mother's new trick is to call his answering machine and
    have the child scream or recite one of her abusive phrases.
    This is upsetting me because I know the child doesn't understand
    what she is saying, but still it is clearly showing how destructive
    this woman can be.  I just hope she grows up fast and stops acting
    like a two year old.  Unfortunately, if a child didn't make her
    grow up I seriously doubt she will.
    
    Michele

    Re: .19
    
    In New York State, the abusive messages would be considered aggravated
    harassment, and charges could be filed.  There's no reason the father
    should have to put up with the messages.  He should look into taking
    legal recourse, if there is any where he lives.
    
    --Pat
    

    I doubt there IS any....  Even if there was....do you think they
    would take him seriously???  Honestly.....  The mother could just
    deny it....and violla!!! end of story...

    
    
    re 21
    
    	Fortunately she was stupid enough to call his answering
    machine while he was out.  So as far as proof, it is all down
    on the tape and you can hear her in the background.  I don't know
    if this could be used as evidence, but it is the only sure fire
    way of proving it was her.

    I had a couple of thoughts as I read the replies to this note. 
    The first was a comment made early on about the father having a
    financial responsibility for the child.  I don't see why the father
    is the only one who should be held financially responsible.  What
    should be happening is that BOTH should be held responsible.  Their
    incomes should be totalled.  Then, the cost for the child should
    be calculated.  This cost would then be split based upon a % of
    the total income.  For example, if the father is making 75% of the
    total income, he should pay 75% of the cost of the child.  If the
    mother makes 75%, then she should have 75% of the cost.
    
    This would help to alleviate the man always getting totally screwed
    by the courts.
    
    I am not saying that figuring the cost of the child will be easy.
     That would still be a fighting point between both parents.  But
    at least it would give the father some chance.
    
    Custody - I don't believe that anything less than 50-50 should be
    granted UNLESS one of the parents can PROVE that the other is not
    fit for that much time.  I liked, somewhat, the situation described
    in California.  At least then both parents would get to be involved
    in the child's complete life.  I hate the courts because they
    automatically side with the mother REGARDLESS OF HOW FIT THE FATHER
    IS.
    
    As far as I am concerned, once the courts and social welfare people
    get their claws into you, in most cases, you are screwed if you
    are a man and you are going to make out like a bandit if you are
    a woman.  I know that I sound down on woman in that comment, but
    I am not.  I am more down on the way the system totally discriminates
    against men.  After all, how many men have been granted any kind
    of custody, joint or otherwise, of their children?  I bet we could
    count them on our hand.
    
    Ed..
    

    re .18
    
    I know of at least one case (in Mass.) where a step-parent's (the 
    step-mother) income has been taken into account regarding the amount 
    of support payments.  Her husband is a machinest and she is a
    teacher.  Her pay is considerably larger than his (she has taken
    courses over the years so that she could get pay raises).  Every 
    couple years, and/or whenever teachers got a raise,  her husband's 
    ex-wife would take him back into court asking for more money -- and 
    the court looked at their total income (i.e., his pay and hers, 
    including her newest raise). 
    
    I don't know if this is the norm but I do *strongly* suggest that you get
    professional advice.                                 
    
    
    
    

    
    
    	I've got a 15 year old son, my x is re married, with two kids,
    	he is pretty fed up with living with them, and has asked me
    	about moving in with me, which i gladly welcome.
    
    	Anyway, does anyone know if she will have to pay me child
    	support, vs me pay her. I don't care one way or the other
    	and would not let that make a difference, but just curious.
    
    	Thans
    
    	Ken Holland

    
    
    	Ken,  My son came to live with me when he was 14. Don't expect
    	to have your ex pay a cent, in most cases it just won't happen.
    	I did talk with several lawyers, and they all agreed on one
    	point, if a man takes over custody of his children from the
    	mother, he is doing so on his own as far as most courts view
    	it. They also told me to not anger my ex, for she could ask
    	the court to order the children back to her and unless I could
    	prove beyond a doubt that she was unfit, SHE WOULD GET THEM
    	BACK AND WITH FULL SUPPORT, and in some cases back support
    	for the time you did have them. Fair, no way, but it the
    	way it is..
    
    
    	Good Luck,
    
    	G_B