Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    The head game is with themselves, you're just caught up in it.
    
    I go through one round and that's it.  Whoever is playing the
    head game never gets the second chance.  Never.
    
    Sherm

    
    Did you ever see 'Fatal Attraction?'
    

    Re: .0
    
    Tarring with a rather wide brush, aren't you?  Let's try to cut
    down on the broad generalizations that get in the way of the point
    you're trying to make.
    
    Both men and women play head games.  You just haven't noticed because
    men often play their head games on women and vice versa.  Of course,
    some women and some men have no use for head games, but indeed some
    do.
    					Steve

         Re: .0
    
         Because it feels good to have such a control over someone as
    to make them behave like marionettes.  Of course, you wouldn't want
    to have a serious relationship with a marionette, so you dump 'em
    and find another.
    
                                  Greg

    I have a friend who, honest to goodness, has the habit of meeting
    a young man and saying, "I love him...." in a very short period
    of time.  She shares this with him, they share togetherness, and
    then suddenly she feels, "I don't love him anymore, and must end
    this now."  Although she tries to remain friends with these people,
    sometimes it just doesn't work (which I don't find at all unusual).
    
    She doesn't mean to hurt, and feels her feelings are genuine.  She
    is looking for "The Real Thing" - love - and maybe she's afraid
    that she will miss Mr. Right if she doesn't try to love him as he
    moves "within range".  
    
    Another friend of mine was very afraid of intimacy for a long time.
    She would start a relationship, and it would be very positive at
    the beginning, but the minute it started getting "serious" and
    "devoted", she would be too scared to continue, and would back away.
    This was due in part to her own fears that she was inadequate, and
    a poor family life that told her people are seldom as nice as they
    seem, so one had best not get too involved with them....
    
    Then again, head-game-players could just enjoy making other people
    miserable...but they'd best be ready for the consequences.
    
    -Jody
    

    
    This may have absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the original topic
    but here goes.
    
    I don't know exactly what you mean by head games. What I do know
    is how some women feel about friendships with men. 
    My wife, like myself, is a friendly person. We both enjoy the company
    of other people both male and femlale. The unfortunate part of this
    is our intentions are often misread. Marie (my wife) has no trouble
    being friendly with men and she is one of those people that enjoys
    physical contact with mostly everyone. She thinks nothing of hugging
    someone (either male or female), casually brushing foreign objects
    off of ones shoulder, putting her hand on someones shoulder or arm.
    Often this can be read wrong by someone she doesn't know very well.
    Occasionally men will make advances that she blocks immediatly.
    She does so without offending and in most cases no offense or bad
    feelings are taken. Once someone realizes that's just the way she
    is everything is fine. Of course you get the ego maniac that persists
    and she has to take stronger action. 
    Like her I have also had my intentions misread. The difference is
    many woman have had bad experiances with pushy men so they tend
    to shy away as soon as encounter a freindly (non-threatening) man.
    In the ten years since I've been married I've had some experiances
    with women that will make advances and like my wife find that once
    my situation is understood by them, no bad feelings. Usually a 
    friendship occurs.
    I don't know if I got my point accross. Maybe what your interpreting
    as a head game is just an honest attempt at friendship and when
    it appears to develop into something more (threatening?) the indiviual
    backs off. Resuming this the next day could be just an honest attempt
    of pursueing what could be a good friendship. 
    
    Did any of that make sense?
    
    Rob

    I share the question: What do you call a "head game" ? Some head games
    can be very enlightenng when you reverse the process and go contrary to
    the game (in a very convoluted way, of course). 
    
    >Why do women lead men on, then change thier tune at the last minute,
    >then the next day do the same thing all over again ?.

    This is easy. Many women don't, but men "think" they do, or at least
    thats what some rapists testify to in court "..duh .. judge ... she led
    me on ... I coudn' help meself  .. er stop myself". 
    
    
>I just can't understand what drives a person, be it a man or a woman to play
>such head games and the next day do the same thing to someone else or to the
>same person.

    Why in the "Sam Hill" wouldst a person hang around with such a low
    account no good for nothing crapolist who would play such games ? 
    
    
By "head games" , I assume the "principle player" says and does things
    which are totally irrelevant and nonsensical; and are designed to
    drive the other person whacko. Hmm ?
    
    One consideration is this: Does the "game player" know the difference
    between what they ARE doing, and what they "OUGHT to be doing ?
    Very often the people who "play games" are simply too caught up
    in their emotions/fears to realize that... what they ARE doing is
    intinsically wrong. Put another way, they need "help" .. soon. Help
    your friends.
    
    //rwe

    RE: .9
    
    Mike, I also was wondering that.
    
    After I read Bob's reply, I hit KP7 to see what I'd get, and
    when I found out I added HIKING, I was appalled. :-)
    
    Imagine, a person like me who thinks it's sacrilege to have to
    *walk* to the Men's Room, having a Conference like HIKING in
    his Notebook. :-)
    
      Alan

    I guess I will probably get my eyes scratched out for this, but
    here goes. 
    
    	As long as there is men and women on this planet there will
    always be the elusive woman for ever being chased by the ever
    prevailing male who is determined to catch this catch. Its just
    that, a mating ritual that goes back to the dawn of mankind. But
    who is chacing who?? Ahh that, Grasshopper, is the lesson in your
    life that you must grasp if you wish to be the winner/loose. It
    doesn't matter either if you win or loose! It will always be the
    game! It is the interest of it all, the chalange of the game, the
    robust attitude, etc etc... Some folks enjoy this type of mating
    game, others enjoy another game. Remember Bongo the bear from Walt
    Disney? Bears say they love you with a slap! Same thing.... 
    I think a reading of some books like Philip Roths 'Letting Go' and
    perhaps a book called the 'New Male' and another one that I found
    on sale for a dollar called the 'Fantasy Files' about what turns
    some folks on and others off. 
    	I was cought up in one of these affairs and was not happy at
    all. I did learn alot from it, I learned alot about human behavior
    in both men and women. I was really crushed when I got the real
    message of it all and vowed never to get cought agian in one of
    these. So I read the above books. The real pain part is to say good
    bye to the whole thing. I use to get phone calls in the middle of
    the night from her justifying it all. Just like cold blooded murder,
    people can justify anything their heads convinced them of. Remember
    I did it for Jody Foster... So I use to run alot when I finished
    talking to her. It hurt so much I ran many miles in the night with
    running shoes and a heart full of pain. I finally got wise, I
    disconected the phone, stopped running at night and was able to
    sleep and forget it all. I was engaged, lucky I got the rock back.
    I tried to get back together, it doesn't work. She enjoyed too many
    men. 
    	So, what to do??? Its what you want. Want to get your brains
    in a blender or want a nice relationship. There are many women and
    men out there who do want one or the other. Find what suits you
    and disconect the phone when you go to bed. 
    
    George

This is my first note in here.  I could have resisted responding and remained 
Read Only...BUT what the heck...

Games.  I am going to stick my neck out and assume that you are referring to 
the change in behavior that happens when you get close enough to a woman, so 
that her *expectations* around relationships start to surface.

"Expectations" is not necessarily a bad word.  When we get close to each other, 
we learn that there are certain consistencies in behavior, that will lead us to 
_expect_ certain reactions from one another.  When the expected behavior 
pattern is not met, we can react by getting upset and thinking that something 
is wrong, or we can react by remaining calm and talking about the situation, or 
we can react by simply going with the flow.  I guess the reactions are based 
upon our previous experiences.

But I'm really talking about the kind of expectations that we get from our 
homes, from our society, from our friends; When you get in a relationship, it 
is societally expected to conform to certain rituals, once the cat is out of 
the bag, and folks know you're together.  So, in the beginning, you like each 
other, but you're not really sure where it's going to go, and you're not really 
Serious or exclusive yet, so you don't reveal a lot of your expectations, 
except for glossing over what you think about relationships in general, in 
conversations you have together, once in a while.  But then, something Deeper 
sets in; something goes from Casual to More-Than-Casual.  And, the "rules" 
change.  What do you expect from a relationship - do you expect for your woman 
to spend more time with you than she does with her friends; more time with you 
than she does, alone; do you expect that she'll want to have sex with a certain 
acceptable frequency; and furthermore, if you don't feel that your 
needs/expectations are being met, do you shut up and start looking elsewhere, 
or do you speak up and tell her what you think, and even allow yourselves to 
get mad at one another if it helps clear the air...You were raised in a home 
where differences were resolved by one parent getting out of the house for an 
hour or so, and then coming back and talking things out, calmly, but she was 
raised in a house where the parents repressed all of their negative feelings 
about each other and made it look like the Brady Bunch, while the nasty 
feelings reared their ugly heads in other places and in other ways, like Mom 
made a meal Dad hated, or Dad stayed out real late with the boys and didn't 
call, etc, etc...so many differences, so little communication!

The best way to get the Games out of the way, is to sit down and TALK.  Even if 
it means digging up old schmoo about how it was with you when you were younger; 
even if it means you have to say something that you'd rather hide (Oh No, 
Vulnerability...), you can't Get There without clearing the air about what each 
of you Expects.

Or I could be way off-base, and you don't mean anything like what I'm talking 
about, in which case...what DO you mean?

    re: .9
    
    I feel a little embaressed. I reread my note "t w i c e " and for
    the life of me i can't honestly answer your question, excpet that
    .. well ... i put it there, that's why.
    
    Does it need justification ?
    
    Perhaps its my own little game.
    
    Bob
    

    'Right on!' to .13 - the key to avoid being trapped by games, as
    in dealing with most things in life, is to keep your cool, communicate,
    and LIGHTEN UP.
    
    When you speak of the 'buy me a drink and you might get lucky' game,
    maybe you think too much about getting laid.  'Expectation' isn't
    necessarily a bad word, but if you do things just because you think
    you'll get the expected result, you're in for some real letdowns.
    Buy her a drink, and start a conversation.  Women usually want
    attention and to be listened to, and want a man to be sincere. 
    Get to know a little about her - it doesn't have to be anything
    deep, just general things.  Be friendly and don't get thrown off
    base by seductiveness.  Be yourself, don't try to do what you think
    she wants you to in order to get into her pants.  Maybe it'll be
    that night, maybe you'll see each other again and something will
    come of it later, maybe you'll just make yourself a good friend.
    Maybe you'll have some nice conversation, practice your listening
    skills, and never see her again.
        
    If she plays really hard to get and you can't handle it, or she
    seems interested only in playing with your head, just relax,
    don't take it personally, don't let your frustration (if you feel
    that way) get the best of you.  If you're interested enough, you
    can confront her by saying, "Listen, I'm just being friendly and
    trying to have a conversation with you, but I don't sense that you
    really are into this.  I can just leave if you aren't." or something
    like that. You may be surprised at her reaction.  Many women really
    respect a man who has the courage to confront them on their games.
    If she continues to be unreasonably difficult, leave politely and
    don't waste your time.

    Games aren't necessarily bad.  Teasing and flirting are a safe way
    (usually) of expressing interest, affection, and attraction in our
    society.  Lighten up and have fun with it.  If it goes somewhere,
    great.  If it doesn't, so what?  At the least you can have a few
    laughs.  Nowadays, too often people are so serious and defensive,
    and it can be a real drag.  I really like it when a woman teases
    me or flirts with me - aside from being an ego stroke, it reminds
    me that life isn't about dealing with work hassles and trains
    and whatever, it's about having fun, and loving ourselves and other
    people.

    
      Steve (who_used_to_be_real_heavy_and_have_no_fun_but_enjoys_himself_
               a_lot_more_now)

    .15   From a woman to you, I think you've got it... congratulations.
    
          Julie_from_a_girl_who_used_to_be_to_serious_and_didn't_have_any_
                fun_but_does_now...

    re .16:  How much is too much?
    
    That's not an easy one to answer.  To successfully seduce a woman,
    your attention has to be on her.  If your thoughts revolve around
    whether or not you're going to get laid more than around what she's
    interested in and in showing your interest in her, that's probably
    too much.
    
    SL

    I'm glad someone brought up the topic of "head games" becuase I've
    been looking for a way to ask this, and this looks as good a time
    as any.
    
    Why do men (and yes I'll be general this time) meet someone, pursue
    her, win their way to where they want to be, then pull a Caspar?
    
    I mean, if you've got the balls to ask someone out, wine and dine,
    maybe spend up to a month or two going out with her, where do your
    balls go when it comes to saying good-bye?  Excuse the graphic
    language, but I guess I'm just a little sick of men thinking they
    can live by "if I don't call, that means I don't want you anymore".
    Well la-de-da!!!  And if you call them to try to find out just what
    went wrong, now you're a pain in the ass, chasing him around.  "Oh
    God! I should never have let her have my number!".
    
    What ever happened to good old respect?  Sure, right now I'm smarting
    over just such and incident, but it is only one amongst many that
    I and plenty of other women have experienced. 
    
    Just tell me, do you ever feel guilty?  Are we all that easy to
    forget?  Do you ever feel after that maybe you *might* have made
    a mistake, but now can't go back and fix it?  Or are we just 
    dust in the wind?
    
                                               cj *->
    

    The ticket goes both ways!  Being an ex military man...I KNOW!
    
    Yes that was a rather General statement.  I think both do it.
    
    "Oh he's out to sea, what he doesn't know wont hurt him."
    
    Oh yea???  Wez got da feelins too ya know...
    
    I do agree though CJ (Wid da flower)  I do know a few male freinds
    that do exactly that.  Why do PEOPLE do this??  Donno, just jerks
    I guess.
                         Al wid da 2 c's

    Women can do it too.  I know from experience.  It's all part of
    refusing to face up to the fact that you're choosing to hurt someone.
    It takes guts to not take the lazy way out and just drop out of
    sight.
    
    			Steve

================================================================================
Note xxx.0                     More to the point.                        1 reply
CSSE::HAKIM                                           8 lines   1-JUL-1988 10:07
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    .19 asked a question. The following responses have only said "women
    do it to"...no kidding. Would any male out there care to address
    the question and provide a little insight? I know that I would
    also like to understand some of the motivating factors/attitudes 
    behind this behavioural pattern.
                                                           
    
    Thanks.
================================================================================
Note xxx.1                     More to the point.                         1 of 1
CSSE::HAKIM                                           2 lines   1-JUL-1988 10:08
                                  -< Mistake >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    My apologies to the moderator and the audience. This note should
    have been a response to #239.

    Re: .22
    
    I thought I addressed that somewhat in my response in .21.
    
    			Steve

    
    Yep, I agree, both sexes *can* act this way toward people they
    have dated/been involved with....however, I just finished reading
    a very good book that deals with men who can't love and who 
    "run" from a commitment or even a serious dating situation...
    It's called "Men Who Can't Love" and I found it very helpful
    as to recognizing men who have this fear of commitment.  It 
    tells how to spot this sort of man, characteristics to look for
    in the early stages of dating, etc.  
    
    Hope this is helpful....if not, oh, well.  
    
    	My
    

    My head is playing games and I don't like it.  The memory is going,
    going...
    
    Somewhere, here maybe, or WN4 or Humannotes, people were recently
    discussing the Nashua New Hampshire high school student request for
    condom machines on school property.  I've written an opinion paper for
    my intro to soc class and would like to read through the responses in
    that string.  But where is it?
    
    Help appreciated, thanks,
    aq
    

Try the CNOTES::NEW_HAMPSHIRE conference - I know there's a topic there.

			Steve

        It is in WomanNotes-V4, topic 310.
        
        Dan

    The Note in CNOTES::NEW_HAMPSHIRE is 2063.*
    
    					andrew