| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 226.1 | | QUARK::LIONEL | We all live in a yellow subroutine | Mon May 02 1988 16:18 | 11 |
| I would want to know how the questions were worded. It is very
easy to slant the questions to get the "desired" responses, especially
with naive subjects such as young children.
I am not dismissing the significance of the finding - it would not
surprise me to learn that these attitudes are prevalent, though
I would hope NOT in the large proportions this survey reported.
But then again, children this age rarely consider the effects their
actions have on others.
Steve
|
| 226.2 | Another age group, please. | QBUS::WOOD | Slow dancin' | Mon May 02 1988 16:56 | 12 |
|
I agree with .1...
And I would like to see the survey put to different age
groups of people. (No offense to those older than the ones
surveyed in the article!) But I agree with Steve that that
age group is probably not old enough to give subjective answers.
However, on the other hand, isn't it interesting that they feel
that way! Makes you wonder if kids are being taught any values
anymore.
My
|
| 226.3 | Yet another symptom...? | MCIS2::HARDY | What, no wiseacre comment? | Tue May 03 1988 05:38 | 29 |
|
Agree with the replies before this one; I would add that if
this was a true reflection of these kids' attitudes, it would seem
to be yet another case of the current dominance of moral relativism
as opposed to previous concepts of duty, honor, compassion, etc.
The kids are being taught that nothing is more valuable nor desirable
than anything else; that no one is better than, nor worse than anyone
else; that all is merely relevant, like, you know man, do your own
thing (back in the 60's there was the addendum "...you know, so
long as you don't hurt anyone else...", but even that's gone now...
So now, in the name of unlimited freedom, we have a generation
or two on our hands that does not understand the concurrent need
for order, and thus it appears that we will "reap the whirlwind..."
Pretty scary.
Related and recommended reading material:
Suicide of the West, by James Burnham
The Closing of the American Mind, by Alan Bloom
The Wise Men Know What Wicked Things Are Written On The Sky,
by Russell Kirk
Regards,
Dave
|
| 226.4 | My heart goes out to these children. | SALEM::MELANSON | | Tue May 03 1988 10:35 | 10 |
| Wow!!! That's damned scarey - even if the questions were slanted
to get desired answers. I bring my kids up with respect for other
human beings, it appears here that the cross section revealed no
respect at all. Does anyone think that sex education in school
would help and required self awareness self improvement courses
might help. I feel badly for these children when they reach adult-
hood and the awful beliefs are even deeper rooted and produce
negative results in their lives.
Jim
|
| 226.5 | Get back to basics | GRANMA::MWANNEMACHER | | Tue May 03 1988 12:06 | 15 |
| I agree with .4. Maybe its time that we go back in time and teach
kids the basics such as consideration for others, manners (when's
the last time you heard a kid say thank you?), and the attitude
of "be considerate to others" instead of "be your own person".
It seems to me that there isn't enough emphasis put on these values
anymore. I also believe that discipline isn't being applied in
many households. I have seen the difference between parents that
spank there kids and parents who don't believe in spanking. It
is amazing to see how much more well behaved the kids who were spanked
when they were younger are. (Yes, I do believe in spanking, not
beating) Also I think that parents have to pay much more attention
to what their kids watch on television. The kind of behavior we
see on TV these days is very much in line with the attitudes that
the kids displayed. We are in trouble and something has got to
|
| 226.6 | | PSYCHE::WILSON | I'm having a mid-WEEK crisis! | Tue May 03 1988 12:11 | 19 |
| I agree with .1; I'd also like to know more about how the survey
was conducted - how exactly were the questions put to the students?
Orally? Written? If written, did the student comprehend the question?
Did the students have an understanding of rape? Was a definition
agreed upon before the survey was taken? What definition
of rape was provided?
All of these questions aside, it looks like there's a real problem here.
What I'd like to know is, if sex education is taught in schools,
does part of the curricula include ``respect for your partner''?
I would hope so.
Maybe schools need to add a mandatory course - Respect for Other
People.
WW
|
| 226.7 | Not a new problem | QUARK::LIONEL | We all live in a yellow subroutine | Tue May 03 1988 13:25 | 15 |
| And while we're at it, we can try teaching kids that it's not ok
to beat up another kid just because he or she "looks queer" (this
was the usual reason I was given when I was in school...) It is
really all a matter of recognizing that others are real people and
not just objects. Maybe "The Merchants of Venice" should be required
study?
Of course, it's worse today because the kids are much more lethally
equipped - knives and guns are commonplace in today's schools. It
seems to be a combination of self-centeredness and mob psychosis.
I don't have much hope for any magic cures to these problems. Morals
like these come from home, not from school.
Steve
|
| 226.8 | | CSC32::WOLBACH | | Tue May 03 1988 17:47 | 29 |
|
Discipline does NOT have to equal spanking, or any other form
of physical violence!!
How does spanking a child teach that child respect? Consideration?
Good manners?
Children learn to respect others when they are raised in a respect-
ful manner. Role models. Children learn to be considerate when
they are treated in a considerate manner, and see others treated
with consideration.
No wonder kids have no manners!! How many parents have you seen
screaming at their children in public? Using physical strength
to dominate the child? Adults dont' treat other adults that way!
I don't hit my dog and I don't hit my son! My son is the brightest,
most sensitive, considerate, loving and well mannered child I have
ever known! Simply because he knows he is a valued member of the
family!! (my dog is pretty well behaved too!!)
To those of you who believe physical discipline is the key-remember
that child will some day be bigger than you, and what method will
you use at that point??
Deborah
|
| 226.9 | The Spanish Inquisition strikes! | CSC32::C_BESSANT | | Tue May 03 1988 18:40 | 42 |
| re .7;
I agree that morals come from home. If all babies and children
were taught to treat human beings with respect, regardless of
looks or behavior, then what would we have - a lot happier society
in years to come.
Morality starts at birth. Babies are imprinted with the behavior
of their role models - parents. My step-son thinks it is not nice
that people do not like others in school, just because they are
overweight (this is from a 8 year old in 3rd grade). He accepts
people for what they are, not because they are "prom queens" or
popular. That is how we raise him - to treat people with respect.
He learns respect for people from the way we treat him - likewise
with respect.
re. 5;
Spanking is a means to teach kids discipline? That went out
with the days of "What s/he needs is a good spanking!" Physical
punishment is used to teach the kid a lesson, in the eyes of the
parent. What lesson are they being taught? That violence is
a means to teach a lesson?
Resorting to violence is very easy. It is easy to spank a
child. It is a quick means of punishment. The parent may say
"This hurts me more than it does you", but in reality it is
not really hurting the parent. I am sure that other means are
possible. If the child learns that when s/he screws up that a
quick spanking is all to expect, they may take the spanking knowing
it will hurt for a short period of times. They may get use to it
and learn that physical pain goes away quickly. Or they may start
to believe that the parent is child abuser.
Kids hear about child abuse and how can they tell a spanking
from the real thing? (this is a bit extreme though).
What about being creative and finding an approach that will
have more impact than a spank? The mind is powerful and some
teaching the child a lesson through experence of similar magnitude
will have more impact than the standard "wack on the butt". Try
creativity, and not Neanderthal approaches......it works!
Chuck
|
| 226.10 | What was the Population though? | SQUEKE::KOZIKOWSKI | But what is information? | Tue May 03 1988 18:41 | 17 |
| As other's have said, I would like to see the survey, and a full
report of the results. Brief blurs like this can suggest a lot,
and say nothing.
I heard a little bit more about this on the news, and the report
said that the students attitudes had changed after they had gone
thorough a course dealing with this subject (I don't recall the
name of the course). But this statement suggested to me that perhaps
the POPULATION of students may have been unrepresentative of a
"cross-section" of American youth. There are so many variables
to consider, it's a shame the media can't emphasize that as well.
But whoever these students were, it is disturbing, and I sincerely
hope that any others who feel this way get the same education these
were provided.
Derek
|
| 226.11 | ex | CSC32::C_BESSANT | | Tue May 03 1988 19:25 | 20 |
| It would be interesting to administer this survey to a similar
population from different geographical locations across the USA.
How large was the population, how was it selected, what demographics
were used and the exact wording would be real interesting to know.
I feel the results are real chilling too. I was also surprised at
the percentage of teenage women that respond (47%) that sex is
OK after a period of time - it seems they accept a time period and
not when it is OK with their own internal timer.
It would also be interesting to see what type of curriculum
sex education/health education the students have (or have not)
received. A lot can and should be taught at home, but over years
of programming at school, morals and attitudes may have become
skewed.
Then again it could be something in the water.......
Chuck
|
| 226.12 | The Liberals did it! | COMET::BERRY | Howie Mandel in a previous life. | Wed May 04 1988 08:29 | 48 |
|
What's all this fuss about spanking ?
When I was a kid, I got "switched" many times for "poor" behavior.
Most kids did. All of my friends too. No one "beat" me... but
I was whacked on the butt a number of times. I NEVER thought of
my mom as just "teeing off" on me. I KNEW I had done something
wrong. This "no spanking" sh*t got us where we are today!
My Dad only spanked me once, and I deserved it. My mom laid into
me a few times. I deserved those spankings as well. The spankings
were not thought of as being "mean," but they did serve as excellent
reminders!
Someone commented on their dog! Even dogs get a little whack for
blowing training, plus, they get a "choke chain" to go around their
neck to remind them how "nice" doggies act !!! How bout it REK?
Then, they too, get rewarded for behaving properly.
So... what's the problem?
We've all gotten so damn liberal! We're into all this psychology
and intellectual bullsh*t, and we've been "told" by a bunch of
educated idiots, that our moms and dads did it all wrong, and that
we're supposed to "talk" and "reason" with these little people and
not spank them or raise our voice, as we might "upset" them....
For those of you that believe that bullsh*t, I say to you, go and
read one of Bill Cosby's books on "Fatherhood"....
Everyone has their damn RIGHTS! We're suppose to chat with and educate
the kids. What good has it done? Sex education was not offered
at my school. What good did it do these kids???
Perhaps many of the kids were giving "sarcastic" answers... but maybe
they didn't. Maybe they were "led" to answer the way they did.
Maybe not.
At any rate, I think the message is pretty clear... we're f*cking up
somewhere! We've tried this new crap.... Maybe Mom and Dad were
doing something right after all !!!
I have a son. He's eight years old. I haven't spanked him since he
turned six. I am divorced. I'm not around him a hell of a lot, but
I don't have to spank him anymore. I did paddle him some during those
early years, and so did his mom. Maybe it helped. We'll see when
he's a teenager, I guess.
|
| 226.13 | Oh geez!!!!!!!!!!! | GRANMA::MWANNEMACHER | | Wed May 04 1988 14:05 | 3 |
| .12 took the words right out of my mouth. The psychological crap
hasn't worked. For all fo you who don't believe it, read the original
memo again.
|
| 226.14 | What Exactly Is The Point? | FDCV03::ROSS | | Wed May 04 1988 14:25 | 19 |
| RE: .13
> The psychological crap
> hasn't worked. For all fo you who don't believe it, read the original
> memo again.
I'm unclear what point you're trying to make here. Is it that, if
these kids had been spanked when they were younger, they wouldn't
have these attitudes about rape/date rape today?
Rape and date rape have been around for a long time - in this and
other societies, regardless of which side the pendulum has swung,
vis-a-vis, corporal punishment.
Are you advocating that parents perform preventative spanking,
before the fact?
Alan
|
| 226.15 | | CSC32::WOLBACH | | Wed May 04 1988 15:10 | 41 |
|
I'm not sure what 'psychological crap' you are referring to.
Do you mean that spanking a child is the only way to instill
discipline, respect, consideration, good manners? If so, how
did you make this determination? Did you approach the parents
of every poorly behaved child that you saw, and ask if they
spank their kids?
I stand firm in my beliefs. My son is NOT physically abused.
While he is not yet a 'finished product', we can assess his
current personality and say that *my* method-treating him with
respect and consideration, and giving him credit for being an
intelligent, sensitive human being, has worked beautifully.
Frankly, we rarely have a need for 'discipline' (I'm not even
sure I like that word).....what exactly can a child, especially
a young child, do, that is so terrible that corporal punishment
is in order? Off hand, the last thing Jamey and I disagreed
on was the disorder of his bedroom. But, that's MY problem,
really. It's HIS bedroom. He doesn't tell me how to keep my
room, and I recipricate. Common area we all keep clean.
It's is my firm belief that parents spank children out of anger,
frustration, impatience and an inability to think of a more
constructive manner of handling a 'problem'. My mother slapped
me, or used a belt. She taught me to fear her. She also taught
me that it's ok to misbehave, but it's not ok to get caught. I
learned to be sneaky. I certainly am NOT going to instill those
qualities in MY child.
Deborah
(P.S. Hitting a dog is not a good method either, and a slip collar
used correctly does NOT choke the dog-it is actually the
noise that has the most impact. It is an attention getting
device. Most dogs could be taught thru praise and voice
control, if most owners were patient enough.)
|
| 226.16 | more "psychological CRAP!" | CSC32::C_BESSANT | | Wed May 04 1988 16:30 | 38 |
| A few replies back a reply was made to Bill Cosby's FATHERHOOD.
As I recall he had ONE incident where he gave his son a spanky for
out and out blatant lying. He spanked the kid, said the issue was
closed, as the kid walk out the door he gave him another real good
wack and when the kid said something like, "Why did you do that",
Cosby replied, "I LIED!". Kind of reinforces the the purpose behind
the spanky.
This NOTE is getting a little side tracked from the results of
a survey to the attitudes/opinions of discipline. What does
spnking have to do with the results of the survey. Would a good
hearty spanky have made the kids answer differently? Or would
proper education and understand have helped?
If you have to resort to violence to DISCIPLINE (not defend) your
child, maybe one should look the methods that were used that did
not include spanking and how effective they may (or may not) have
been.
Ask yourself, if your manager had to "discipline" you, do you think
they would spank you? No (I'm not talking legal stuff here), they would
find another way to "discipline" you. PAs, salary reviews,
promotion (lack thereof), different responsibilites (or less),
firing, new job or whatever would be appropriate to the severity
of the infraction.
No ask yourself, if you were a child, what would be a form of
discipline that have high impact on you? Put yourself in his mind,
you use to be there at one time, and really think hard; no allowence,
no dinner, no TV, no sports, no playing with friends, no car, extra
chores around the house, no VCR or maybe the next time they need
for something, anything, you won't be there to help (carefully
planned of course).
Guess I went on too much here. Maybe a NOTE on HUMAN DISCIPLINE
would be in order to keep this one on track of the alarming
results of the survey.
Chuck
|
| 226.17 | Let me rephrase that a little | GRANMA::MWANNEMACHER | | Wed May 04 1988 17:49 | 21 |
| I beg everyones forgiveness for not chosing my words more carefully.
Let me elaborate a little. I think discipline is necessary in the
raising of a child (whether it be spanking, no TV, sent to room,
etc). I think that substituting the word violence for the word
spanking is rediculous, however. When one thinks of violence one
usually thinks of abuse or trying to hurt someone physically. Also
I think it's very self righteous of someone to say that people who
discipline their kids are acting out of anger and just can't think
of another way to handle thsituation. That person ought to open
up their minds a little to other ways of doing things.
What I meant by my previous note is that kids need to be taught
morality (not just assume that they have it), and when they do
something to endanger someone (including themselves) or infringe
on someone elses rights there is going to have to be some kind
of retribution paid. The cost gets greateras you get older and
get into adult mischief as opposed to childrens mischief.
MW
mischief
|
| 226.18 | From a senior citizen. | COMET::BRUNO | Beware the Night Writer! | Wed May 04 1988 19:44 | 7 |
|
Everybody's getting so danged conservative nowadays. In MY
day, when somebody wanted to beat-up on someone, they picked someone
their own size.
Greg
|
| 226.19 | | CSC32::WOLBACH | | Wed May 04 1988 23:34 | 53 |
|
.17
Please re-read my note carefully.
1) you define violence as 'trying to hurt someone physically'
What exactly is hitting a child, if it is not attempt to
inflict pain?
2) I did NOT state that people who 'discipline their kids are
doing it out of anger'. What I DID say was that *I* feel
that parents who hit their children do so out of anger and
frustration. The one time I spanked my son, it was because
*I* was angry and frustrated. I immediately apologized to
him and we had a very healthy conversation about his mom's
stress level and his behavior. Bottom line-I was wrong to
hit him. There was a better way to handle the situation.
3) "....open up their minds to other ways of doing things."
My point exactly!!! There ARE better ways to raise a healthy,
responsible child! Case in point: so many parents threaten
to spank or slap their child if the child goes out in the street.
Some parents even carry out the threat-after repeating the threat
numerous times. The child learns a) I shouldn't go out in the
street because my mom/dad will hurt me b) I may or may not
get spanked/slapped, but meanwhile I'll continue my obnoxious/
dangerous behavior because sometimes mom/dad just threatens and
it really doesn't mean anything. Alternate method: Teach the
child that running out in the street is not a good idea because
A CAR will hit him/her and s/he will be severly injured or killed.
How do teach this child? Well, first you show them dead animals
in the road, and say "That's what happens when an animal is hit
by a car. The same thing can happen to a child, or adult. I
love you very very much, little child, and I do not want you
to be hurt or killed. " And then you teach them how to cross
the street safely. I used this method when my little boy
was less than three years old, and let me tell you, IT WORKED!
Now, before you all think I'm supermom or something, I have to admit
that I was probably the most unqualified person in the world when
I became a parent! I just happen to adore that little guy, and
decided to use the creative approach to rearing him. While he is
not quite a 'finished product', so far it looks extremely promising,
and yes, I am justifiably proud of my son. More important, I am
proud of the person that HE has helped me to become. He's done
a better job 'raising his mom' than his mom has done raising her
son. And now I'll get off my soapbox.
Deb
|
| 226.20 | Shrinks tell us how to raise our kids | COMET::BERRY | Howie Mandel in a previous life. | Thu May 05 1988 09:23 | 86 |
|
My opinion:
Some people respond well to 'words' while others respond better
with a spanking, while most probably do excellent with both....
====================================================================
Re: .15
Deborah,
I think your reply was for me ...???
>I'm not sure what 'psychological crap' you are referring to.
>Do you mean that spanking a child is the only way to instill
discipline, respect, consideration, good manners?
No. Don't blow a fuse.
>If so, how did you make this determination?
Since I answered "no" this is a dead question.
>Did you approach the parents of every poorly behaved child that you
>saw, and ask if they spank their kids?
Yes. ---- Ask a foolish question, get a foolish answer!
Before you make a comment or opinion on something, do you go take a
poll ?
>I stand firm in my beliefs. My son is NOT physically abused.
Nor is mine. Don't go off and interpret a spanking on the bottom
as an abused child.
>While he is not yet a 'finished product', we can assess his
>current personality and say that *my* method-treating him with
>respect and consideration, and giving him credit for being an
>intelligent, sensitive human being, has worked beautifully.
The parents of the children in the base note would probably say as
much.
>Frankly, we rarely have a need for 'discipline' (I'm not even
>sure I like that word).....
EVERYONE IS IN NEED OF DISCIPLINE !!! That's the problem with most
people.... a lack of discipline in their makeup. Let's hope they
join the Armed Forces.....
>what exactly can a child, especially a young child, do, that is so
>terrible that corporal punishment is in order?
Define 'corporal punishment'....
>Off hand, the last thing Jamey and I disagreed on was the disorder
>of his bedroom. But, that's MY problem,really. It's HIS bedroom.
>He doesn't tell me how to keep my room, and I recipricate.
There's that damn liberal attitude again... ;^)
>It's is my firm belief that parents spank children out of anger,
>frustration, impatience and an inability to think of a more
>constructive manner of handling a 'problem'.
>My mother slapped me, or used a belt. She taught me to fear her.
>She also taught me that it's ok to misbehave, but it's not ok to get
>caught. I learned to be sneaky.
It may be your belief because of things that happened between you and
your mother. You pointed that out. I'm sorry if you were abused.
Golden rule is to never spank in your angry. As an adult, one should
have more control.
How did the above teach you that it's ok to misbehave?
>(P.S. Hitting a dog is not a good method either, and a slip collar
> used correctly does NOT choke the dog-it is actually the
> noise that has the most impact. It is an attention getting
> device. Most dogs could be taught thru praise and voice
> control, if most owners were patient enough.)
A good trainer teaches thru praise and love. He also jerks the choke
chain when the dog needs reminding. I have trained dogs. The sound
of the chain doesn't have much impact. It's the sudden drawing of the
chain that get's 'Rover's' attention.
|
| 226.21 | Sorry for being so long winded | GRANPA::LWANNEMACHER | | Thu May 05 1988 11:31 | 35 |
| Debbie,
One more thing. I do not spank my child out of anger. I spank
my child out of fear that her safety is in danger. When she stands
up in her high chair or the bath tub and is in danger of falling
and recieving cerebral damage or being killed, I think it better
to spank (not beat) her and have her learn that way than trying to
reason with her. (Its hard to reason with a 16 month old) We only
spank our child when she does something that is dangerous. I know
there are other forms of discipline which we believe in and use
as necessary. I too feel as though my children will turn out to
be upstanding citizens of the community who will know the difference
between right and wrong and have respect for others as well as standing
up for themselves. As far as having an open mind, you are the one
who dumped everyone who believes that spanking their children can
have positive results in to the same category. I am just saying
that it is an alternative. As far as not believing in the word
discipline, I am quite sure that the world would be a much more
dangerous place than it is now without it.
Back to the original topic before the spanking issue took over.
I think that moral values are assumed in many instances and are
overlooked when different topics are taught in school and
unfortunately many times at home. I think if morals and respect
were incorporated into teaching all through school instead of just
teaching them at the very beginning and then dropping the ball when
a child gets a little older. (To cover myself: the teaching should
be continued at home as well as at school , I only indicated school
to represent an age group) One thing which is for sure, something
has got to be done and this is just one mans opinion. Let's teach
our children to help thy neighbor, treat people with respect, and
what's really important in life (God (forme), family, friends &
neighbors, ones community) from ages 0-18.
Mike
|
| 226.22 | | CSC32::WOLBACH | | Thu May 05 1988 11:33 | 19 |
|
Define "discipline". I believe that hitting a child is
not necessary. Many child psychologists support this
theory.
Jerking a dog while training is also not necessary. Read
Barbara Woodhouse's book(s). The sound of the links is
enough to cue the dog to pay attention. That's why jewel
cut slip collars are not as effective.
My mother (probably) did not spank or slap me any more than
the average parent of her time. I still consider it abuse
to hit a child. I also consider it mental abuse to scream
at them.
Deb
|
| 226.23 | | CSC32::WOLBACH | | Thu May 05 1988 11:36 | 8 |
|
I promise not to call you "Mikie" if you will refrain from
calling me "Debbie", which is not my name.
Deborah
|
| 226.24 | My last reply | GRANPA::LWANNEMACHER | | Thu May 05 1988 11:53 | 11 |
| Their are many books around that say that discipline is a positive
thing. In fact they say that kids want to be disciplined, it shows
them that the parent cares about what they do. As far as defining
discipline, I am not going to get trapped into an argument about
the definition of a word. I gave my views, yours are different
and I can accept that without getting mad or upset. That's what
makes this country great; you can have your opinion and I have mine.
RE: .23 I really don't care what you call me, it was an innocent
mistake on my part. My apologies. Please don't get so defensive
in the future.
|
| 226.25 | | GOJIRA::PHILPOTT_DW | The Colonel | Thu May 05 1988 12:11 | 12 |
|
When I was younger, and joining the Army Cadtes at school I was
told that "discipline" was "the conformance to an orderly set of
rules and regulations".
"Spanking" is not discipline, it is a form of punishment for
violations of discipline. However I come from a societal
background that leads me to believe that it is not always
inappropriate to correct lapses in discipline by the imposition
of pain in a controlled manner.
/. Ian .\
|
| 226.26 | | CSC32::WOLBACH | | Thu May 05 1988 12:33 | 13 |
| .24 I was not looking for an arguement when I asked for
the definition of the word "discipline". I was trying
to avoid an argument. If we each know what we are
hoping to accomplish, then we can discuss methods to
arrive at that end result.
I want not "defensive" about being called "Debbie", I
was offended that you took the liberty of changing my
name.
Deborah
|
| 226.27 | Many meanings of "discipline" | MOIRA::FAIMAN | Ontology Recapitulates Philology | Thu May 05 1988 15:11 | 24 |
| The meaning of "discipline" is certainly part of the argument here.
- Hardly anyone would deny that children need to "learn
discipline" or "become disciplined" -- i.e., learn the sort of
self-control needed to function effectively, both as an
individual and within society. As I read Deborah's notes, she
is asserting that she has a well-disciplined child.
- Most people would probably agree that "parental discipline" --
i.e., guidance, direction, etc. -- is necessary to help
children become disciplined. (That is, that children learn
self-control through parental influence.)
- There is much less agreement that "disciplining children" --
i.e., punishing them for misbehaviour -- is a necessary,
desirable, or effective component of parental discipline.
- Finally, there are many of us who do not believe that spanking
is the best way of disciplining children, even if we accept
the desirability of disciplining children.
Ok?
-Neil
|
| 226.28 | name abbreviations | RUTLND::SWINDELLS | | Thu May 05 1988 15:27 | 14 |
| My God, now we're going to get into discussions on taking liberties
on changing people's names!!!! From child abuse to nicknames -
maybe this should be started in a new topic.
If I spent my entire time getting nasty with people because they
took the liberty to shorten, abreviate, and mispronounce my name,
I would be spending a hell alot of my day just doing that. Lighten
up - it's not the end of the world. Believe me, I do agree that
a person should be called whatever they so desire, but this is not
the place to do so.
Donalea
|
| 226.29 | a serious question | RAINBO::MODICA | | Thu May 05 1988 16:20 | 11 |
|
REL .22
Deborah, you state that you feel it is mental abuse to scream
at a child, and abuse to spank.
Because I'm a new parent I'd like to ask what you've done when
your child absolutely refuses to do as you wish and will not
listen to reason; especially during the ages 3-5 or thereabouts.
Thanks in advance.
|
| 226.30 | | CSC32::WOLBACH | | Thu May 05 1988 18:01 | 82 |
|
OK, but first, the disclaimers ;-) I admit that I have on
occasion yelled at my son. I admit that I have (rarely!)
smacked his bottom (perhaps 5 times in 8+ years). I also
admit that these were wrong wrong wrong. Now, the most
important part of all: it is my deepest belief that I was
blessed with a child who is a very old soul. From the day
he was born, he radiated positive energy. He has always
been VERY easy to deal with and is just wonderful. IMPORTANT:
I am not taking credit for these aspects of his personality.
I am just thanking God that I wound up with this very special
child.
Now to answer your question(s):
I think it all goes back to the beginning. We almost lost hi
when he was born, and when he finally came home from the hospital,
we were very nurturing and very careful with him. Not that all new
parents don't adore their babies, but after what we went thru, he
was even more precious.
My beliefs: I do not believe in strollers. I believe in holding
a baby as much as possible, and that includes carrying him, rather
than isolating the child at knee level n a stroller. I do not
believe in letting a baby cry. I believe that a child who's needs
are met when he voices those needs (ie, crying) is a more secure
child. Jamey slept with us, for the most part, the first few months
of his life. (Possibly) As a result of this initial very positive
nurturing, he is a very secure and independent little boy. He is
also very loving and affectionate. He is almost too conscientious
in that he tries so hard to please the important people in his life.
Frankly, I don't remember ever having a problem with being able
to 'reason' with him. I rarely used the word 'no'...in reality,
what can a very young child do that is 'wrong'?
Let's see-I've already explained my approach to teaching him the
danger of roads and cars. The one time I remember having to
'discipline' him involves a very short period of time, when he was
about 6 years old, and would behave obnoxiously when we took him
out to dinner (I firmly believe in the social graces and good manners)
One particular evening, I asked him twice to stop whatever he was
doing that was annoying me. The third time, I calmly (that's the
key word) stood up, took him by the hand, and led him to a chair
in the lobby of the resturant. I (calmly) explained that when he
was ready to have dinner with us in a civilized manner, he was
welcome to rejoin us at the table. (of course, I was able to see
the lobby area from our table, so he wasn't abandoned). After a
while, he came back to the table and was fine.
More recently, he was playing outside with his friends and I could
not find him (I'm rather paranoid about not being able to keep an
eye on him when he's out in a public area). When I finally found
him, I WAS very angry, and made it clear. I explained that I was
worried that he might have been injured, or kidnapped, and it was
HIS responsibility to make sure I know where he is. From that day
on, if he goes to a friends house, he leaves a message for me on
the answering machine, including the phone number. I did not sug-
gest this to him, this was HIS solution to the problem.
I'm not sure I've answered your question....and I do feel I've been
rather long winded.
One book/tape combination that has REALLY made an impact on my
parenting techniques is called "Helicopter, Drill Sargeants and
Consultants" by Jim Fay. His theory is to teach children to be
responsible for their own behavior. Let's face it, you can't
very well spank a 16 year old for driving while drinking. But you
can start early and teach them that THEY are responsible for the
consequences of their behavior. I also ask myself frequently
"How important is this, really?" Parents could nitpick and nag
their kids forever, about things that are not really critical.
Gee, feel free to send me mail. I've tried to give you some
specific examples, and I'm afraid I've been very long winded
adn I apologize for that....
Deb
|
| 226.31 | | GOJIRA::PHILPOTT_DW | The Colonel | Thu May 05 1988 18:10 | 15 |
|
�Let's face it, you can't very well spank a 16 year old for
�driving while drinking.
Why not? I was older than that when my Father administered the
last dose of the strap I received (for smoking). I was older than
that when I got my last dose of the cane at school (for being
off-limits in the lunch hour).
If a child is below the age of financial self-reliance (ie still
a rent free boarder in the parents house) then they are subject
to the parents rules. And the punishments for violation of those
rules.
/. Ian .\
|
| 226.32 | VIOLENCE! | CAM2::ROCH | | Fri May 06 1988 13:00 | 8 |
| I heard these findings on TV and almost fainted. I was just as
shocked when I saw a TV segment asking teenage boys if they thought
it was right to strike a woman - More responses were "YES!! - They
have the right!"
Pretty scary!
Vicki
|
| 226.33 | Consequences | MSDOA1::CUNNINGHAM | | Fri May 06 1988 16:26 | 67 |
| I belive the issue here is consequenses. If a child is very devoted
to the parent/s then simply displeasing or offending the parent
may be very upsetting to the child, and the child will seek in the
future to refrain from such actions. My oldest and youngest child
are like this. (I have 4 children.) On the other hand, the middle
two are not. I have a 12 year old daughter who requires firmer
discipline. She always has. So does my 10 year old son.
I try to teach all my children that actions have consequenses.
When my son destroys a toy through abuse, he does without that toy,
I don't buy him another one like it even if it was one of his
favorites. I do give him an allowance, so he can buy one by saving
his money up if he wants to. When he lost his new coat at school
because he took it off and couldn't remember where he put it, he
paid for the next one out of his own money. When my daughter, who
is very bright, came home with a report card showing low grades,
I talked to the teacher. Seems she was not paying attention in
class, and not doing her homework. So for the next 6 weeks period,
until her grades improved, she did not watch any television.
She made straight A's the next time. (Which was not required.)
On the other hand, direct defiance of a parent's authority is
a more serious matter. When my daughter defiantly told my wife
during a conversation "Your just being mean and stupid", she got
her face slapped. Immediately and on the spot. My daughter learned
there were serious and immediate consequences to rude and arrogant
behaviour to an authority figure. I don't believe you do your child
any favor to not teach them that. Otherwise, when they are grown,
they will tell off their boss, or a policeman, or someone else who
will teach them the lesson of consequences.
This does relate to the subject of rape. If you don't teach
your child while they are young that they cannot do what they want
just because they want to, the first time they learn that lesson
may be when they wind up in jail for doing what they want.
There is nothing sadder than seeing a child bully their parents
because the parents are afraid to ultimately resort to physical
punishment. I have two male friends who cannot hold a job longer
than a couple of months because they can't stand for someone else
to tell them what to do. Everyone gets angry at authority sometimes
and would like to tell somebody where to go, but if that urge can't
be controlled, in the long run one suffers.
With the way the courts and parole systems works nowdays, with
the very low percentage of people who get caught and pay for their
crimes, many adults have learned that the chances of paying the
piper are much slimmer nowdays. The result: rapidly escalating
crime. When I lived in Fitchburg my house was robbed. The police
didn't even bother to come out to the house, they took the police
report over the phone. No investigation, no talking to neighbors,
no search for clues. The result, when insurance had paid off and
new things were bought, we were cleaned out again. When I complained
to the police, their attitude was they have too much crime to worry
about people robbing your house. In my opinion, such attitudes
are the reason there is so much crime. My reaction, we moved.
The net result, the development of slums. (After your robbed twice,
insurers cancel your policy.)
Why is there so much crime in New York subways? Because people
get away with it. Since your not allowed to defend yourself, and
since the police and courts do such a lousy job, your best bet is
to stay away from such areas. I currently live in Memphis, where
people have some old fashioned ideas about discipline, where the
police have the time to investigate crime, and where my house doesn't
get robbed. Here people rich and poor alike take their children
to church and teach them morality and the existance of a higher
law. Believe it or not, it makes for a different world. No place
on earth is more liberal than New York and Los Angelos. And no
place has a higher crime rate.
DRC
|
| 226.35 | Simplistic analysis benefits no one | MOIRA::FAIMAN | Ontology Recapitulates Philology | Mon May 09 1988 11:46 | 42 |
| Re .34, I would not consider slapping a child in the face for making
an obnoxious comment, either. However, I consider an analysis like
the following:
> Apparently some feel it is okay to slap small children because of
> several possible reasons:
> a) They are smaller, and can't retaliate.
> b) Violence against human beings, especially children, is not
> inherently wrong.
> c) Violence against adults is bad but children are not entitled
> that sort of basic human dignity.
to be naive and misleading. I disagree with the proponents of
physical discipline: but representing their position in this way
suggests that you are more interested in scoring debating points
than in understanding that position.
A fundamental element of the parent-child dynamic -- possibly *the*
fundamental element -- is that children are different from adults.
We do not -- we simply *can not* -- treat children as if they were
adults. Doing so would be a monumental disservice to them.
A small child is a very different sort of being from an adult. It is
different in its physical capabilities, its thinking, its
understanding, its perceptions. In time, it will become an adult.
As parents, it is our responsibility to facilitate that
transformation; to help our children become the "best" adults they
can.
But if we begin by realizing that we must understand children
differently than we do adults, then "Would I do this with an adult"
becomes an irrelevant question, though it may provide some
interesting insights. It is not inconceivable that slapping a child
in the face may be the best way to effect some result, even though
we would never do the same to an adult.
Personally, I don't think so. (I *really* don't think so!) But
neither would I accuse a parent who does it of believing that
"violence against adults is bad but children are not entitled that
sort of basic human dignity."
-Neil
|
| 226.36 | POWER | CRISTA::MAYNARD | | Mon May 09 1988 12:07 | 21 |
| As the author of the basenote, I'm kind of surprised at the responses.
My shock at the survey's results, was not because I felt these kids
would actually commit rape or assault, but that they had a total
misunderstanding of power. i.e. "I'm bigger and stronger than you,
and I can make you do what I want". I think the issue here is not
whether these kids know the difference between right and wrong-I
think they do. I think the issue of concern, is a basic humanity.
How do you deal with someone, who is weaker, less intelligent,
handicapped in some way, or just generally, someone over whom you
have some advantage? I think they see the way their "adults" use
power politics in dealing with the homeless, with minorities, and
with people who are "different" and they take their cues from that.
You can elicit certain behavioral responses by varied forms of
discipline-does anyone remember the "Aversion Therapy" used on
autistic children, in Massachusets?- but love for fellow humankind,
is a lot tougher, to teach and to ingrain on an individual pysche
(regardless of age) We as adults, must be concerned with spiritual
values or all the discipline in the world, will be useless.
Jim
|
| 226.37 | | PASTIS::MONAHAN | humanity is a trojan horse | Sat May 14 1988 09:25 | 10 |
| Punishments that various types of society have approved for
adults who are naughty have included flogging, castration, killing, and
life imprisonment. I believe naughty children should be treated
less severely than naughty adults.
I agree that probably the many of the children in the survey
would be unlikely to act on what they were saying. I can state under
what circumstances I would find it morally acceptable or unacceptable
to kill, but place me in one of those situations with a gun, and
I am not sure what I would do.
|