Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    RE .0    Sing Earth, Wind & Fire's 'Reason's song. 
             Realize the joy Men will receive, in having full
             female participants in this Conf. (OK, the headaches too)
             
             Here's a Reason: With considerable female participation
             here, we'll be able to give the gylanic* participants
    
             X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0
             X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0
             X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0
             X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0
                                                                   
             Like never before. Feelings, everything. Believe it.
    
             Reason enough ?
    
                                                        Love,
                                                              Russ

    I would certainly hope that most women who choose to participate in
    MENNOTES would do for similar reasons as most men who participate
    in WOMANNOTES - because they are seriously interested in the
    issues.  Suggesting that they should come here to get "smooched"
    would appear counterproductive to me.
    
    Sadly, many women's contributions in this conference are treated
    lightly by the participants - there's a lot of strutting and
    posturing when a woman replies to a note.  I'd like to see some
    serious discussions including both men and women appear here.
    
    				Steve

    RE .2   Steve,
                   Sometimes I go to Womannotes for this reason:
                  to try to figure out what it is about Women (in
                  general, but invariably most specifically) that
                  might account for the shocking lack of interest
                  in Mennotes.
                    There are reasons. What I said was we, as Men
                  would love to have you!  Please by all means feel
                  free to come here.
                    I never trivialize a Sex. Nor do ever mean to
                  make anyone feel unwelcome, or uncomfortable.
                    What do we have to do - sell this Conference?
                    What do I have to do ------ JUSTIFY WHY ** I **
                  would like to be asked out for a date???   ----
                  one of the silliest notes I've ever seen in my life.
    
                   If it's not one thing, it's another.
                  I see your point though -- and suppose another deletion
                  is in the cards.
    
                  My point is this Conf's Strengths are long known
                  & questions like 'Why should I ask you out' or
                  Why should Women join mennotes'  are very very
                  ........ well, they just NEEDN'T be asked.
                    
                   Our strengths are obvious to any Adult that LOOKS.
                   
                   And questions that needn't be asked - Shouldn't
                   be.
    
                                                         Russ

    This conference doesn't need selling.  Women aren't a group of
    mindless animals that need to be shown the path to enlightenment.
    If this conference becomes something women are more interested in,
    then more will participate - it's as simple as that.
    
    			Steve

    	I'd like to make an observation after reading both WOMANNOTES 
    	and MENNOTES for quite a while.  MENNOTES is a more relaxed
    	forum, more accepting of people's responses.  I don't want to 
    	have to justify every feeling and experience I have (had) in 
    	a sexuality battle sense, nor get into a sociological debate
    	about *everything* I believe in.  Maybe some men are simply
    	blowing off my replies here.  But quite frankly I'd rather be 
    	able to express myself and be subsequently blown off than be
    	attacked by ANY sex.
    
						Carla
        

    re:last
    Carla,  Did you ever think that maybe your notes were worth reading
    and ****listening*** to, instead of "blowing them off", or blasting
    them?
    Maybe your notes were worth something here.
    I really do not know, Its just a thought.
                                       @L  

    It is unfortunate that there exist certain individuals who delight
    in attacking just about anyone in the conference.  The moderators
    take action against these individuals as soon as one of us encounters
    a transgression, but sometimes it all happens too quickly, especially
    during off hours.
    
    I urge all readers to not accept any one noter's style as indicative
    of the conference as a whole.  We may not be able to prevent attacks
    (though we certainly try), but we do respond as soon as we can.
    
    					Steve

    re: .7 (SALEM::AMARTIN)
    
    	Please, I wasn't saying my notes are necessarily being blown
    	off (how's that for an ego statement??  =;*) ) because I
    	sincerely hope I have *some* worthwhile things to say!  I
    	actually was expressing appreciation that attacks aren't as
    	prevalent in this conference (although they are propagated
    	by some people), and that I enjoy this forum immensely.
    
    					Carla
    

    re.8
    
    "Do as I say not as I do..........."

    
.10>    "Do as I say not as I do..........."
    
    Kerry, not often do I come to your defense, but for once you are
    right....  I don't care for this conference anymore, because it
    seems the moderation is very biased from one moderator, and very
    heavy handedly (hows that for a word?) moderated by that moderator,
    without reguard for others' feelings....
    
    As for the one moderator, yes Steve, I'm speaking to you.... This
    conference has turned into a very boring conference, and whenever
    anyone writes in here, is subject to your moderation only.... the
    other two moderators don't do it.... yes, I know you sign their
    names too... but its amazing that they don't moderate that way when
    you are out of conference reach.... might tell you something if
    you stop and SERIOUSLY look at it.... but at least you don't play
    favorites, another file you moderate is taking the SAME turn!
    
    As much as I hate what the public womannotes has become, its 9999
    to the infinite power better than this one. At least the people
    there can speak freely and without fear of moderation (as evidenced
    by all the c*** that gets into that file).... thank heavens for
    the *private* file!
    

    Just my two cents worth, but I'm sure you'll delete it before long...
    
    G

    I've been "reading" here since the beginning (Nov 1986?).
    I don't write often as I find most responses are written
    much better than I could have done.  I find some of the
    subjects very informative (Vasectomy), some funny and some
    I have no comment or interest.  
    
    I will continue to read here.
    
    marie

    
    re .11
    
    Yeah, but this file would get nasty very quickly if there
    weren't heavy handed goderation... 
    
    As for what the public WN has become... its a reflection 
    of how the sexes are getting along. Not well, you say? True.
    In saying how you hate what WN has become, do you mean you
    
    1) hate that people have unremitigated angst toward the opposite
       gender, 
    
       or 
    
    2) do you mean you hate the fact that its expressed in
       WN?
              
     

    re.13 It will never get the chance.

    re: last
    What, you want to segrigate this conf too?
    

    Let's hope this discussion doesn't go the was it did in
    Womennotes.  That's one reason I'm always reading Mennotes,
    the fighting over in WN get's so far out of hand.  I happen
    to *like* men and don't feel like seeing them constantly 
    bashed.  
    
    I find a lot more to laugh at in this conference.  Granted
    there are times when an slightly egotistical note may cause
    me to grimace a bit, but then there are plenty of men who 
    cause me to grimace anyways.  You have to take the good with
    the bad.
    
    I just hope they don't raise up in arms and try to drive us
    out of here the way they have been treated in WN.  
    
                                        cj
    

    Thank you cj.
    We like you too.
                            @L

    Please no segregation notes.
    
    And I for one would welcome a LOT of participation by women and
    men here. I enjoy discussing various issues and the more opinions
    offered the better. 
    
    

        Another very  strong  vote against any form of 'you can't write
        here because you're  a  woman,  or  white,  or gay, or black or
        whatever'!
        
        Understanding  demands communication from  everybody,  with  no
        exceptions, and I demand that  no-one  be made to feel a second
        class citizen in this conference, regardless of how others have
        gone. Leave the discrimination to the insecure.
        
        Re .11 - Sounds remarkably like a  personal  attack  to  me and
        should be deleted by the author.
        
        Andy.
                

.20>        Re .11 - Sounds remarkably like a  personal  attack  to  me and
.20>        should be deleted by the author.
        
    Ah Andy, you don't know me enough to know I would not "personally" attack
    Steven, he might take my account away from me :-)....
    
    Just a different'ing set of opinions....
    
    and different set of opinions don't get deleted JUST because they
    don't agree with yours..thems the breaks...
    
    Gale    

        re -1,
        
        They do in FRIENDS when they say essentially what you said in
        .11, Gale -  remember  Sandy's  note on your moderation style
        and how it was affecting the conference?
        
        A double standard exists and it's documented.
        
        As to ..
        
   " Ah Andy, you don't know me enough to know I would not "personally" attack
    Steven, he might take my account away from me :-)...."
        
        Whether I know you  or  not  Gale,  I  can  only  read what's
        written, not your mind.
        
        And now we return you to your published programme folks...
        
        Peace,
        
        Andy.

    re .4   Is this topic about the relative strengths & weaknesses
            of Mennotes in comparison to Womannotes?  I'm curious
            what kind of improvements are possible here.
    
            Some general ideas (outline) : 
    
            1. Self improvement. Well written, presented topics & notes.
            2. Men's Issues Awareness. Educating Men (in particular)
               about issues that personally involve them.
            3. Conference Introspection. Studying varied criticism from
               contributors about the presently (perceived) qualities/
               shortcomings of Mennotes. Reporting the various views
               expressed, and stating a consensus (collective opinion).
            4. Inter-Conference Awareness. Moderators from Gender notes
               discuss (amongst themselves) the current state of affairs
               of the Conf's; exchanging problem solving ideas, and
               other relevant information. Also possible encouragement
               (by Mod's) for people in all Conf's to explore (and part-
               icipate in) other Conf's. Perhaps a quarterly or semi-annual
               topic note.
    
                                                       Russ

    I've been unable to read this file for a couple of days, so I've
    seen all 24 replies in sequence. Quite interesting.
    
    a) I don't read WN and some of the reasons are discussed elsewhere
       in this file, so I won't regurgitate them.
    b) Complaints about the moderation? Can't be that bad, I haven't
       seen/noticed a heavy hand. 
    c) The first file in this vein was nothing but rooster strutting
       and died very quickly. Still some left, but its really hard for
       men not to. Its been ingrained in us and even those of us that
       aren't comfortable with it, get dragged into it sometimes. What
       has appeared in notes files, is nothing compared to what I can
       actually hear in conversations around me.
    d) Men have a tendency to not discuss, openly, topics that could
       impugn their virility. I wouldn't believe any poll such as
       'how often do you have sex?', because people's answers would
       more reflect what they think they should admit to, rather than
       what they actually do do.
    e) I was quite surprised by the creation of the three new conferences.
       Two members only and one 'public'. I personally wouldn't participate
       in a closed conference that didn't have some very good reasons
       for being closed, such as devoted to AA or Gay issues. Members
       only for men's or women's issues? What are we talking about that
       can't stand the light of day? Are they really things that should
       be discussed in this medium? Protection from outright ridicule
       is necessary, but isn't general understanding of any problem
       the point of these files? Folks should look closely at the causes
       of some of the public disputes. Its really amazing how someone
       can read someone else's words and simply attack their ideas
       without trying to understand their intent.
    
    I could probably come up with some more, but I haven't the time
    now.
    
    Bob Mc

    ain't there a DEC course : How to moderate a conference ?
    
    Timo

>        ain't there a DEC course : How to moderate a conference ?

    No, but there should be.
    
    			Alfred

    
    A relatively new noter here.....I've just finished reading 205.0 -
    205.27 and decided to add a comment or two.
    
    Regarding men participating in womennotes and women contributing
    to mennotes.....I fail to see what the big deal is!  I am under
    the impression that people write notes to ask questions with the
    hope to get ideas, opinions, criticisms, and general feedback.  Am 
    I wrong?  The greater the variety of people, the greater the cross
    section of responses...The author may then receive comments,
    suggestions, attitudes, and ideas which he/she might not have
    previously considered.  It can only help each of us to see and 
    understand other perspectives - learning is what life is about!
                     
    
    Is it not time we lay down our weapons and open our minds?
    
    
    As for moderating....I thought all conferences announced the rules
    and regulations at the beginning.  It only seems natural that there
    be a moderator.  Perhaps a new topic could be started: "Analysis
    of the Fear of Following Rules." :-)
    
    
    K2
      

    .25 and .28 make a tremendous amount of sense.  Maybe those of you
    old noters that use this notes file as some kind of personal release
    mechanism have to find other ways to satisfy your urges for people
    and ideas or ideal bashing.
    
    Back to the .0
    
    I read, seldom reply, to WN and as a new noter I don't feel qualified
    to comment on the relative sensitivity expressed in either file.
    
    The intent, I thought, of separate files was to provide separation
    for topical purposes.  
    
    The real issue seems to be that .0 was curious as to whether or not 
    the MN is restrained and the WN is not?  That's an impression 
    and a question.  The other issue appears to be that
    if MN is restrained, why?  Then, based upon the responses to these
    questions, is there a reason why there are more women in MN than
    men in WN.  How'd I do?
    
    					Dana (a single male in florida
    					desperately seeking susan, joan
    					jeanne, diane.....)
    
    

    RE .11:  If you find mn sooooo boring, maybe del entry tamara::mennotes
    would solve the problem :-).  Seriously, I would think that if you
    had complaints or gripes to make, it should be done directly to
    the moderator through mail.  Sorry, but it seems like only common
    courtesy.
      
    RE .29  You have great insight :-}!!!!
      
    So what is the decision?  Are the conferences going to shake hands
    and be friends?
      
      
    K2
      

    Re: .30
    
    Kris, the conferences ARE friends.  It's only a small set of noters
    who insist on pitting one against the other.  I try to ignore
    such pettiness and keep the forum as open as possible.
    
    					Steve

    re .11:
    
    I believe you have unfairly singled out Steve in your _attack_. 
    Although at times he may be the most _visible_ of the three moderators,
    he is not the only voice in decisions.  Instances where he has signed
    my name to a note are cases where he has consulted me and I asked that
    he do so.
    
    Your responses to this note strike me as bitter, incoherent, and way
    out of line.  However, I have no problem with discussing conference
    policy publicly.  Let's just not start 17 zilbillion separate opinion,
    vote, response to opinion, unregistered vote etc etc notes to do so.
    
    - M

    Back to the Topic (sort of):
    
    Mennotes does not seem to me to be a safe space for men or women.
    Very often, I have seen Topics or replies on a problem or subject
    which the author finds important treated with a back-handed slap
    of a response, a joke.  While many feel I take noters and their
    feelings a bit too seriously, I would not be suprised if one of
    the factors inhibiting good discussion is the likelihood of the
    topic (seen as important by the author), or another noter's feelings
    being treated as trivially unimportant, not even worth addressing.
    
    What better way to demonstrate that "real men don't have feelings"
    than to ridicule those feelings?  
    
    FWIW, I think I have seen what I consider to be improvement.  But
    it is Men's file to do with as you will.
    
    Lee

    
    It comes, it goes... All will be well for a long time,
    then the raggings seem to begin almost as flowers on
    the desert after it rains...
    

    re.33 
    thank you female for telling us how to be.
    

    Haven't read WN and probably won't, from reading here I perceive WN has
    alot of invective which is counterproductive (and boring). I suppose I
    should read for myself and then make a descision.
    
    Men are not as open as women and don't generally discuss their feelings in
    any forum so I didn't really expect to see alot of that here either. As
    for the ragging and smart remarks....if you can't say anything nice, then
    say nothing at all.

    I can only speak from my own perspective, but I am as interested
    in women's opinions as I am mens, so I would encourage women to
    continue to participate in this conference.  This is especially
    important to me since I have a hard time crossing over and being
    involved in Womennotes.  The opinions expressed there are so blantently
    biased against men that I have to sit on my hands to keep from
    replying.  I do not believe my opinions are welcome there by many
    simply because I am a man.  I believe this inspite of the fact that
    the reverse is expressly stated.  Unless I (or any man) am stating the
    exact same opinion as the militant majority, the note will not be
    accepted as simply an opinion but rather as a point of challange.
    People react as if someone had spit in their eye!  It is such a
    struggle not to be misunderstood or accused of being a monster that
    it is simply not worth it.
    	I believe mennotes cover many of the same topics but without
    the same heat.  People tend to listen to each other better here,
    and even the same feminist who would roast a man for his opinions
    in womannotes treat us much better when responding in this conference.
    Plus certain people don't come over here because they are sick of
    male voices.  I do just fine not wasting my time with what they
    have to say, and the feeling seems to be mutual.
    	I always enjoying this coference.  I can only read WN on days
    when I feel secure and strong.  The last time I looked men were
    catching H**l over the abortion issue (we of course are trying to
    enslave) even though abortion is legal.  Seems that if you don't
    believe in abortion you are a threat to society (especially women).
    If I remember correctly, the term used was conspiracy by men.  I
    just can't deal with such stupidity often.
    
    DRC
     

    Re: .37
    
    I would prefer to not see this turn into a discussion on the
    subject of WOMANNOTES.  I think you are engaging in hyperbole
    when referring to a supposed "party line" there.  It is true
    that there are some vocal noters in that conference that like
    to challenge, but overall there is a wide spectrum of interest.
    
    Right now, the moderators of that conference are going through
    a fairly painful process of adjustment due to several vocal noters
    requesting that the conference be a "safe space for women".  I will
    be checking back in that conference in a month or two to see if
    things have calmed down again - perhaps you may want to consider the
    same thing.
    
    In any conference, a variety of opinions is beneficial.  But one must
    remember that just because YOU think about an issue one way doesn't
    mean that everyone else is going to agree with you.  If you get
    arguments, respond with reason, not flames.  Also, realize that
    you can't always win - it is often best to just quit an argument
    rather than rehashing the same points over and over.  
    
    					Steve

    Re: .38
    
    >    Right now, the moderators of that conference are going through
    >a fairly painful process of adjustment due to several vocal noters
    >requesting that the conference be a "safe space for women".  I will
                                         ----------------------
    
    	How 'bout if all the male noters wore condoms?

    
    	Jake    

    RE: .38
    
    
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
    
    Thanks for the perfect ending to a perfect hassled day!
    
    I loved it :-)

    Jake, Jake, Jake...sigh...
    
    
    
                          Deborah
    
    (yes, I HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA'd too!!!! thanks! I needed that!)
    
    

    
    
    	Sorry, it's not raining so I'm unsafe I guess...
    
    
    						mike

    
    Re: .42
    
         There never was a problem with moderation, before, but if they
    continue to give in to certain elements, there may very well be
    problems in the future.
    
                                     Greg
    

    re: .38
    
    Hyperbole: to exaggerate for effect.  This seems to me to be a matter
    of opinion, but I'll accept the charge.  I appreciate how quickly
    you jumped in to say so, it is the kind of response that keeps things
    from getting out of hand, and therefore one of the things that make
    this conference so good.  I like the fact the moderators are not
    trying to make this "a safe place for men."  We don't need to silence
    women's voices in order to do so.  It is plenty safe for us as it
    is now.  
    
    >If you get arguments, respond with reason, not flames.
    	Ok. I'm willing.  I like the fact that happens here.  And, I
    am not saying it doesn't also happen in other not-to-be-named places.
    But I believe that what strikes one person as "resonable" often
    strikes others as "irrational".  
    	I would also appreciate it if you would notice that you do not
    see me locked into an argument in any notes file where I keep hammering
    the same point, reply after reply, arguing that I have been
    misunderstood.  That really was an unfair criticism.
    
    DRC
    p.s. I've had the big "V".  Is that as good as a condom? :-)
    

    Re: .45
    
    My comments were not directed at anyone in particular, but were
    meant as a general suggestion for how to cope with dissention in
    NOTES.  Sorry if you took it as aimed specifically at you.
    
    				Steve

    re .0   It would be good to see more participation by women here.
          That so many women do not does not make sense, all things
          considered.  
    
                                                      Russ