Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    If it bothers you (and it would bother me alot) tell him NO KIDS.

    Given that he wants to continue to be a father to his children
    I think that he is going to want and need to have the kids over
    night. If this is something that you are not comfortable with
    and can see no way of being comfortable with then you should
    talk to your roommate about finding another place to stay. Do you
    have another "public" room in your apartment other than the
    kitchen or living room such as a dining room, which could be set 
    aside as a kids place while they are visiting? It is not going to
    be possible for the kids to keep their hands off of everything,
    but your roommate should be willing to clean everything after
    his kids go home. 
    

    RE:157.1  I can tell you are anti-child! re:157 I feel that you
    should have taken in the fact that he had children before he moved
    in, and he has just as much right to have his children spend the
    night as you have to have female overnighters...

< Note 157.3 by TUNDRA::HARRISON >
                        -< Children aren't that bad!! >-

    RE:157.1  I can tell you are anti-child! re:157 I feel that you
    should have taken in the fact that he had children before he moved
    in, and he has just as much right to have his children spend the
    night as you have to have female overnighters...


When my roommate moved in all I knew was that he was going thru the 
divorce and landed in my house.  I knew he had kids and we never 
discussed them and their participation in my house.

Daily visits I acknowledge and have no problem with.  What bothered me 
was the crying by the 2 year old in the early am hours.

I am not bound to these children by fatherhood.  I accept no 
responsibility for their care and feeding.  That is their father's 
responsibility.  I try and accomodate the situation so it best for all 
concerned myself included.

I welcomed a roommate into my home, not a family.

As far as being anti-child, that is a hard statement.

I have no brothers or sisters.  I did not grow up around a large 
family.  My mother cared for me after my father's death.  I am very 
sensitive to the needs of children as it relates to both parents.
In essence, my experience with children is greatly limited.  Please 
keep that in mind as you comment.

As far as women overnight guests, they may howl but they don't cry.

    
    Being a divorced father, whose 4 year old daughter visits for weekends,
    and having recently become reacquanted with Mass. child custody
    arrangements, I would venture to say that the 2/3 year old is NT
    going to be doing overnights for a whie.  
    
    So if your problem is the two o'clock wail, chances are it'll be
    a howl long before it's a wail.
    
    As far as having children around a house...and this is only one
    mans' opinion.....I have learned more from my daughter, or should
    I say I have been reminded of more by my daughter, about innocence,
    love, learning, openness, and the gentle peacefullness of the world
    that existed before I matured.  I would venture to say that with
    an open mind, and a careing heart having children around can be
    a genuine reacquantance with the REAL world.
    
    Just my .02 worth
    
    the_wiz
    
    
    
    

    re: .0
    
        It seems to me from reading these notes that there is the
    possibility that the children may be spending a fair number of
    weekends at your house.  It also appears that this arrangement
    is not what you would like.
    
        Your room mate didn't mention that the children might be spending
    Saturday nights with you, so you entered into an agreement without
    all the pertinent information.  Don't feel guilty if you need to
    ask your roommate to find another place.
    
        Remember also that winter is approaching and the visits will
    probably be limited to indoor play soon.
    
        If I found myself in your situation I would talk it over with
    my roommate and decide whether I could work it out without him having
    to leave.  If not I'd try to find the best schedule for his leaving.
    I'd show a lot of compassion and try to help him make the move as
    smooth as possible.
    
        Give a little, but don't bend until you break.
    
    ASP

    Hi Howie! I have the same problem, with a real gottcha attached.
    My boarder has a three-year-old that *my* eight-year-old absolutely
    loathes. The kid gets into his toys and stuff - John is fit to be
    tied. I have all the problems you have and then some. Fortunately,
    my boarder takes the kid out early Saturday morning and keeps him
    partying until he drops.
    
    Suggest that he take his kids out for the day...all day, far away.
    Suggest a hotel room for weekends that he has the kids...remind
    him that your house is small, you only agreed to board *him*. He
    has probably gotten the hint already.
    
    Good luck, and keep us posted. I could use a few hints myself!!
    
    Stel (the closet dead-head)
    

    Re .7, the poor guy probably can't afford to rent a hotel room on
    the weekends since he's in the process of going through a divorce.
     I would have imagined that if he could afford it comfortably he
    would have gotten his own place to begin with.
    
    Re .0, I had mixed emotions as I read this.  I can identify with
    both of you really.  Other people's kids can be difficult to put
    up with - first, because we don't love them we don't let as much
    slide by or forget it as quickly as with our own kids, and second,
    because we don't have the control over how they're disciplined the
    way we do our own kids.  
    
    But, as a divorced parent I feel bad for the roommate, too.  It's
    very important for him to feel that he isn't losing his children
    at this time, and what better way to feel that he isn't losing them
    than to have them around a lot.  I would never live in a place where
    my daughter couldn't stay over night, if I could help it.  My SO
    raised his two daughters alone and as he said once, he always told
    women, friends, or potential roommates, I have two kids, take it
    or leave it.
    
    If it really bothers you that much I think you should just tell
    him that it's nothing personal, but that children get on your nerves,
    that you are used to conducting your life without them, and that
    you have expensive equipment that you are nervous about having kids
    around.  Tell him you think it best he find another place.
    
    I don't think you should worry about having women stay over and
    the kids seeing them.  Sounds like they're too small to question
    it, and anyway women staying overnite with men is part of life.
     They may as well realize now.
    
    Lorna
    

First let me say than you to all of you have responded so far. The 
more ideas on this subject, the better the outcome.

Let me say that I have been really thinking about this.  I have found 
in my life that when I resist something so vigorously, that it is a
symptom of mine that I am not addressing some kind of fear.

Understand that I am not clear about my roommate and his children.  
This has been spoken about with him and will continue.  I realize a 
previous comment (Lorna I believe) about him *really* needing them 
especially at the time of his divorce.

My life right now is about seeking balance.  Not a trivial task when I 
have only my own (planned) stuff to be concerned with. Enter 2 other 
people (yes I know kids are little people).  I just don't know how 
children of almost any age fit into my life or life plans just now.
I suspect this event is highlighting this and life has presented me 
with another experience to grow thru.

Thanks for the opportunity to share this with you and please keep the 
ideas flowing.

- Howard

	W O W -

	RE: 157.8

	I WOULD **NOT** , emphasize NOT , want to be the

	one to stand in a court room and have to tell a judge

	that various unmarried adults are staying overnite

	in a house where children were... I cant speak for

	Mass. ... but if it is as puritanical as I think it
	
	is ( ... at least as far as most judges' opinions are )

	, I  >>> K N O W <<< for a fact that in R.I. this is 

	not allowed.   It sounds like  your roommate wants to establish a

	pattern of being of being capable of providing overnite visitation 

	... In fact, this is highly reccommended... I could go on and on

	as to why...   I dont give advice anymore... nobody listens

	anyway... If I was him... I'd get my own place... and if

	necessary I'd unilaterally reduce my child support... he

	has just as much right to like in the same lifestyle as the

	rest of his family....  If necessary... he should insure

	via formal communication to his (former) spouse that he

	wants to retain his right to be able to have  overnite vistation...

	but due to present circumstances he is unable to exercise

	these rights...   I feel confident that his (former) spouse

	wants a nite off also... but if he cant... he cant...

	I'm at ma and dads... and we dont have the facilities...

	when I had my own place... I'd take my 3 kids (13,10,4) every

	saturday.... but I went into debt > $8000 during this time

	because of excessive support payments.

	THERE APPEARS TO BE METHODS TO REDUCE SUPPORT TO RESONABLE
	AMOUNTS.... BUT I wont describe them here...


						$ dollar bill $

	Witches... arghhh !!!!


	Let me get this straight... GENDER definately does have an
	influence on the court.

	It appears to be more acceptable for females to do this than males...

	Lets back up a little... 

	a situation thats typical...

	Joint legal custody, physical possession with the female.

	That means that both parents have *** EQUAL *** rights to

	have a say in ALL decisions regarding the health, education,

	welfare, recreation, moral and religious training of the

	children.  Your counsel probably reccommended not sleeping

	around (read that, moral training) because if the other

	parent WANTS too , they can file a motion requesting a restraining

	order preventing OVERNITE stays by an unrelated adult in a

	home where minor children are present (note this doesnt

	mean you cant have a friend but it does mean that no one

	can put their head down or function as man & wife)...

	The point I'm gettting to is that it opens one up to the

	(possibly) strong possibilty that you will end up back in 

	court again... especially if your female... this is usually

	because the man was removed from his "castle" and is disgruntled.

	Also, motions can be brought as to the *** "fitness" *** of the

	parent to retain priviledges...(read that joint custody) if

	they place the children in a questionable environment...

	It appears that your attorney gave you good advice...

	legally and morally... no sleepovers when the kids are

	around...


						$bill

        
    
    re:  .13
    
    	Hi, "Eagle"
        
    	I'll gladly let you "temporarily" care for my 2 teen age 
    	daughters til they are both 18!! !! :^)  They are driving
    	me crazy!  :^)  No, actually they are great kids!  
    
    		Hope you are doing o.k.! 
    
    				My
    
    	

    I see the main point being that Howard does not/cannot/chooses not
    to have his home open to the possible distruptive actions of his
    room-mate's children. He is entitled to this opinion - it is his
    home and he has the final say in what goes on and with whom he chooses
    to share it. He can be, and is, sympathetic to his room-mate's needs,
    but by the fact that he is uncomfortable with the children staying
    over, the atmosphere cannot help but be less than optimal for the
    children. Try as he will, the message that the children present
    a problem to him will surface no matter what. That's the last thing
    you want children in this situation to feel...that they don't belong
    or fit in. They are having enough problems as it is...
    
    As a divorced parent, I fully commiserate with the father; yet I
    would seek alternatives to bringing my children to a place where
    they would get, either overtly or subliminately, messages that they
    don't belong there. Everything in divorces is expensive - but there
    are some things that are worth the money.
    
    BTW, during my divorce I had a live-in boyfriend. My lawyer knew
    about it, my therapist knew about it, my ex-husband knew about it.
    It was never even mentioned in court, because as long as you close
    your bedroom door and behave as mature adults when the children
    are present, nobody can say you are an unfit parent. Men and women
    have relationships in and out of marriage - that's life, Jack, and
    as long as you don't perform live sex acts in front of the kiddies,
    you are an OK parent. Unfit parents are those who neglect or abuse
    their kids, not those who have perfectly natural relationships with
    other human beings.
    
    stel
    

    	I would like to ask the homeowner why he took in a boarder to
    begin with.  Was it simply to help out a friend, or was it to bring
    in a little extra money or a little of both.  I would also ask what
    kind of privelages the rent money covers.  Does it include use of
    common areas?  I have no idea what your financial arrangement is,
    but if I were paying a substantial part of the household expenses
    I would expect the right to have guest, even little ones.  If you
    are renting for financial reason, and will take a different boarder
    if this guy leaves, then my experience is that everyone has some
    drawback, and it just goes with the territory.  There is no such
    thing as a free lunch, or in this case, a boarder who has no traces
    of being there.
    

< Note 157.16 by MSDOA2::CUNNINGHAM >
                         -< Depends on the situation. >-

>    	I would like to ask the homeowner why he took in a boarder to
>    begin with.  Was it simply to help out a friend, or was it to bring
>    in a little extra money or a little of both.  I would also ask what
>    kind of privelages the rent money covers.  Does it include use of
>    common areas?  I have no idea what your financial arrangement is,
>    but if I were paying a substantial part of the household expenses
>    I would expect the right to have guest, even little ones.  If you
>    are renting for financial reason, and will take a different boarder
>    if this guy leaves, then my experience is that everyone has some
>    drawback, and it just goes with the territory.  There is no such
>    thing as a free lunch, or in this case, a boarder who has no traces
>    of being there.
    
To try and answer your question.

A friend told me that someone he knew needed a place.  We met and 
agreed that he could rent a room in my home with common area 
privileges.   We have a written agreement between us covering a 
variety of things.  Prior to this, a roomate's children were never an 
issue, hence not in my agreement.  When he does move out, the 
agreement will be updated in some fashion regarding visiting 
*overnight* children.

Having a guest is not the problem and I do accomodate that.  As Stella 
so wonderfully stated in the previous note it is the sleep over part 
that disturbed me.  I also have to admit and hadn't previously 
realized that my "unconscious" symbols of me not wanting them around 
can get thru.

I guess I don't care to have the responsibilities of fatherhood.  The 
presence of my roomate's children has brought this to my attention.

I'd like to think that the situation is to help out a (new) friend and 
to provide some income to the household. Yes, it's true that each 
roomate will present a new situation. Part of what bothered me was 
that he did not think to tell me that they were planning to stay over 
either for that night or any other night.  He did say he was doing 
this for legal (read divorce settlement) reasons.  I'm not clear about 
the precedent but it is something that I am pursuing with him.

After all this feedback I will be asking him to inform me of his plans 
to have the children over.  In this way I can plan for it and make my 
plans accordingly.  If things seem to move with the kids being over 
alot, then I will ask him to move.

Thank you all for your input.  I appreciate it. I am certainly willing 
to continue our dialog.

Thanx.

- Howard

    It is important to be up front when looking for a roommate.  A year
    ago when my wife and I seperated I had a tough time finding a place
    to live for this very reason.  I have two boys (ages 6 and 8) and
    I had hoped to find someone else with a similar situation to share
    a place with.  I began to think I was the only seperated male with
    children!  I was fortunate enough to find a fellow DEC employee
    that didn't mind my having my kids over every Saturday night!  Of
    course, all good things must pass and next year he is getting married
    and I'll be back looking for a roomie.  What we need is a means
    for locating and matching up divorced/seperated fathers.  
    If you have to let this guy out, just give him a little time, because
    it is not easy to find a place under those circumstances.
    
    RNG