Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    
    	I for one would steer well clear of remarriage - I do not see
    any real need for me to be married to anyone, having said that,
    I believe I would like to live with someone at some point in the 
    future.
    
    	I believe most of this stems from the fact that my Wife and
    I grew very far apart when we were married and it was a very long
    and painful process to extract ourselves from it. Due to the legal
    ramifications - it also became very bitter and emotional (thankfully,
    we are now frienda again). Living with someone, for my mind, allows
    slightly more freedom and "room" within the relationship.
                         
    	True - I am also terrified of the next divorce !
    
    	As for affluence making any difference - I've never been affluent
    so I wouldn't really know.
    
    Steve
    

    
    
    NEVER! NEVER AGAIN!
    
    Affluence only makes a difference in divorce court!  After 5 years
    of married life, I spent about 14 months as a single person.  Then
    I lived with someone else for about 18 months.  Forget living together!
    It can be just as bad as marriage, except for one thing; NO DIVORCE
    COURT!!!  
    As far as remarriage goes, it's not for me personally.  I love being
    single too much! 
    Some advice that many consider to be cold-hearted, yet I heartily
    endorse;
    
            Get a lawyer before you get married!
    
    With your spouse to be and a neutral lawyer draw up a pre-nuptial
    agreement covering all the aspects of a potential divorce, i.e;
    custody of any children, division of marital assets, etc., etc.
    Consider it to be your best form of insurance.
    Perhaps it is cold-hearted, but at least it is realistic in these
    times.
    
    
    
    Mean Gene  (who lost his shirt &  a whole lot more!)
    
    
    

Well, I was married for 2.5 years and then divorced.  One of the most 
painful periods of my life.

I'm married again, got a child on the way [actually my wife does :-)].

We didn't as long as I did with my first wife.  Time from meeting to 
marriage; 10 months.

Will it last?  I'm pretty sure of it.  It feels different this time in a 
way I can't really describe.  Talk to me in 25 years and I'll tell you how 
it went.

dj

    I am not afraid.
    
    Many of us who have been through painful divorces only remember
    the bad times at the end.  While I understand this may not be
    true for everyone, I still remember the many good years we had.
    
    The lesson I learned was not just to avoid marriage, but to know
    what to do next time to make it work.  I'm looking forward to it!
    
    					Steve

    
    Then, of course, we have the complete cowards, who are afraid to
    do it even once.
    
    Like me.
    
    DFW

    
       My ex and I divorced after 20 years of marriage. It was not bitter
    but it was painful for both of us. When you are young you are somewhat
    naive (thank God) about what you face in the coming years. While
    I feel I have no desire to marry again, I recognize I may feel that
    way due to the fact that it's only been a couple of years since
    the divorce and I have an opportunity to focus on doing a lot of
    things I might not have been able to do if I were still married
    (if I want to go fishing, I just do it.)
    
       I am not afraid of divorce (again). If I were, I would never
    marry again. Ya gotta trust sometime. Perhaps the most important
    thing is to be able to openly talk with the prospective party about
    their expectations before the knot is tied. This way expectations
    get set and you just have to trust the other party to be honest
    and make sure you spend some time getting to know them.
    
       Another important thing is that people are not the same for their
    entire life. Outlooks change over time; even likes and dislikes
    change. 
                                                           
       I dislike statistics just as much as generalizations. But they
    do allow you to form expectations. If only 5% of short courtship
    marriages succeed, you may want to take more time up front before
    taking the step and you might pay more attention afterwards.
    
       The success of the marraige is really up to the individuals involved
    and a set of statistics. But if you know the odds are not in your
    favor you take steps to try harder.
    
       Affluence (defined as not having to worry about where the next
    meal is coming from or how to get the rent/mortgage payment) may
    not play a big part when you are young (you pull together), but
    as you get older it helps to not have to worry so you can focus
    more time on the relationship.
    
       People get remarried for a number of reasons when they are 35-45.
    Some feel pressure that their appeal (physical)will soon fade and they 
    have to move quickly. Some feel like the worst thing in the world
    is being alone and will do anything to prevent that. 
    
       And some do it for the reason they did it the first time.
    
       They meet, they fall in love, and they marry. They have some
    common interests and recognize that they have the freedom to have
    individual interests that will be recognized and supported by the
    other party (not "Thats your thing and I dont want to get involved"
    but "gee, your really doing well and I'm glad your enjoying it").
    
       If you have a great fear of another divorce, you may want to
    spend some time working that. Dwelling on the possibility will
    usually lead you straight to it.
    
                           Mike
    

    	I have been married three times.  The first divorce was after
    4 years of marriage and was extremely expensive, in more ways than
    money.  Wife number 1 and I had no real courtship.  The story is
    long and too personal to detail in this file.
    
    	The second divorce was after a year in a marriage of convenience.
    We were both earning minimal wages as actors in New York and thought
    living together would help make end meet.  Living together resulted
    in marriage - guilt was still quite strong in the early 60's.
    
    	Libby and I have been married for 18 years.  Our courtship begin
    one month after first meeting and lasted for two days before I moved
    in with her (better of the two apartments).  We were married four
    months later and remain married.
    
    	Wife number two and I are still friends.  Wife number one and
    I have no time for each other under any circumstances.
    
    	Douglas

    The divorce was great.  It's the marriage that was boring! 
    
    There's an article in this month's Cosmo, (the (in)famous Madonna
    cover), where men are asked several questions designed to explore
    how they feel about women these days.
    
    After reading the article and thinking between the lines, I got
    the distinct impression that sexuality is considered a "side" of 
    life and that women, (plural), are the creatures who deal with that
    side.  Hunting, flirting, dating, making love, living together,
    breaking up, hunting, flirting, etc was how that side of being human
    was viewed.  The rest of their lives of course involved work and
    play, and sometimes play and sex overlapped.
    
    But no one really seemed to be looking for a life partner, although
    some men wanted closeness, (the goal being a "steady" partner).  The 
    idea of monogamy until death was completely absent from the article.
    
    And then I realized that the idea of monogamy until death was
    completely absent from MY life and always has been, even when I
    was 19 and walking down the aisle.
    
    The latest catch-phrase is serial monogamy which means you love
    exclusively until things change and why they change makes no
    difference.  I always felt that I would be a very satisfied person
    if my life consisted of a string of live-in lovers - serial monogamy.
    
    I can't imagine why anyone would legally cancel out all their romantic
    options for  the remainder of their natural lives unless children
    were involved.  But even THEN the motivation is really economic
    protection of the female and offspring.  The result is not always
    that, however!
    
    Marriage/singlehood has absolutely nothing to do with
    loneliness/happiness although that's what we're sold since we're
    old enough to hear and most people buy it and marry "just because".
    
    You can't control your future with another person because you can't
    ever control another person.  Marriage is supposed to offer some
    degree of control of the other person but it's a pretty weak tool,
    yes?
    
    So why cut yourself off in the name of hope?  Why remove yourself 
    permanently from the sexiest part of life on a chance when the odds
    are against you?  If 3 in 5 marriages will end in divorce, (as the
    stats say and surely my experience agrees), then marriage is more
    likely to fail than succeed and divorce is imminent.
    
    So what's the benefit?  In addition to hopefully feeding the female
    if she can't support herself due to pregnancy and child-rearing,
    what's the reward that can't be gotten any other way?  Do we marry
    against our own fears of that lonely old person we may become? 
    If so, we're looking at the past, not the future.
    
    We are still the largest segment of society and will be so in old
    age.  The old, lonely people we have seen and are afraid of becoming
    are indeed a minority in society but that's swiftly changing as
    the population, (read baby boomers!), ages.  When we're old, the
    largest segment of the population will be old too and things will
    be very different from the image of "old" today.  Don't fear it.
    It's NOT going to be that bad!
    
    But then the other day I was driving and thinking about this and
    I had an insight.  Do we fear loving someone who ONLY knows us as
    an old person?  Is the benefit of monogamy until death the fact
    that your partner remembers when you were young and strong, sexy
    and vivacious?  Will that really matter to you OR to your partner?
    Can it just make things worse?
                         
    

    Excellent note .10.  
    
    	What is more beautiful in nature than a tree?
    
    	The seed I planted and helped nuture for 30 years!
    
    	I met a woman in her 80's who lived in the woods of Pembroke,
    MA.  In her front yard were two majestic oak trees.  She planted
    both trees when her two children were born.  She outlived both children
    but not the trees.  She sees the history of her children in those
    trees.           
    
    	My long time friends are more comfortable for me because we
    have lived more of our lives together.
    
    Douglas

    Good points .10 and .11
    
    What I keep wondering about is what's really going on with all
    this married people seeking lovers stuff.  Now, I've had one married
    guy ask me in all earnestness (and I've heard enough of this BS
    to know the difference) - can't I love two women at once?  He wants
    to protect his family and remain loyal to their needs/his
    responsibilities but wants passion too, i.e. another woman.
    
    I have this really crazy notion that if marriage got to be such
    a routine, and you both had verbalized a commitment to each other
    and to honesty, that if you want to have an affair because things
    are boring - go tell your spouse that and let the fireworks fly.
    Certainly, after the smoke's cleared some needed soul searching
    would be done by both and the relationship could grow.
    
    Am I like *really* off the deep end here?  Or is it because I'm
    still single??  Could this guy be for real?  Or am I in the twilight
    zone??
    
    /Wendy

    re: .12
    
    I'm not sure if you were serious or not, but in answer to the question
    of "Can't I love two women at once?", for me, the answer is certainly
    yes.  I know lots of women; with some, I'm VERY close, and with others,
    I'm not so close.  And there are a few truly special people in my life
    (women) that I do love.  Same goes for men, too.
    
    This is very different then having sex with several women, though. I'm
    still single, so I certainly don't understand where your friend is
    coming from.  For me, though, marriage is a commitment to each other -
    and to yourselves.  There's no room for dishonesty, wavering
    commitment, or wavering dedication.  If I promise to love, honor, and
    cherish someone for the rest of my life (that does sound scary,
    doesn't it?), that means a hell of a lot to me.
    
    Is it possible to love several women at once?  It certainly is!  That
    doesn't mean that I go to bed with them, though, or that I want to.
    Making love is a very special act of sharing - I haven't shared it with
    very many people.  I'm a firm believer in fidelity within 'romantic'
    relationships - and this is completely different than loving someone.
    
    	-- Jeff

    re .12 Sounds like he would rather find passion outside than
    inside his marriage. Sounds like he and his wife need some
    counseling. Do you really want to involve yourself with a guy
    who won't work at his marriage ? Copouts are a dime a dozen.

    Why should passion go out of a marriage in the first place?  If
    the man were mine, I hope he'd tell me he felt things were getting
    a little dull (the shine wears off the new chandelier, etc.) long
    before things got that bad.  If certain men need to feel they're
    attractive by seeking passion with other women (or the reverse
    situation yielding similar disastrous results), then I think that
    this would probably be a long-term trend (i.e. a repeated need,
    rather than "just once").  There's zillions of ways to keep a
    relationship hot - moonlit nights - pounding surf - a jacuzzi built
    for two - fishnets 'n lotsa lace - notes tucked in one anothers'
    lunchboxes - etc.....

    -Jody
    

    re: 117.0
    
    "... affluence ...". 
    In a fairly recent article on burglaries, it was stated that it
    was " ... more likely for the affluent ... families" would
    be burglarized. The article defined 'affluent' as those with FAMILY
    incomes in excess of $25,000. per year ! (I thought that was the
    poverty line !). Maybe its the bottem end of the "affluent line".
    
    Since I originally posted .0, several 'awarenesses' have arisen.
    
    Fear is the only thing we need fear.
    
    People who are willing to take a risk will ...
    
    From another person ... (JIMB)  (paraphrased)
    
    "If people love each other so much that they are committed to solving
    their problems, whatever they may be .. they cannot fail."
    
    Of course, the caveat is that BOTH of them must share the same
    commitment.
    
    .bob.

    I married because I subconsciously believed that the best way to
    "complete" myself was to merge with someone very opposite from me.
    I realized this wasn't effective as part of divorce counseling,
    and that I can't complete myself thru anyone else.  I am reluctant
    to remarry until I can find a good reason that doesn't involve using 
    another person as a surrogate for developing myself.

    re: .17
    
    In the book, Man and his Symbols, which describes the elements of
    Jungian psychology, the 'symbol' for completeness is the 'circle',
    a symbol we use extensively on our 'society' to indicate completeness.
    
    Wedding bands represent this 'symbol', in that the couple have found
    'completeness' through union with each other.
    
    We see circles in many places. We see 'arrows' as pointer. CHurch
    spires are often 'arrow shaped' pointing towards the heavens and
    unity with a oneness from within.
    
    I find a 'absent' completeness from within myself, in much the similiar
    manner that many 'otherwise' good and wholesome foods are made better
    when consumed with 'complementary' foods; and enhancement which
    makes the 'two or more' better than the sum of them separaretly.
    
    We combine together in 'circles of friendships', to find 'community'
    and wholeness that we would otherwise not be able to develop alone.
    
    These notesfiles form a community, of sorts. Often bickering, and
    often giving/getting insight 'like a large family'. People become
    drawn here by that 'community'; and when parties are held people
    merge that community closer together as we put faces, names, concepts,
    and understanding together; building a mutual respect for each other;
    and .. I think ... some level of love ... a source of help to each
    other .. and at times ... a source of pain.
    
    Searching for 'completeness' is like searcinmg for an 'honest man'.
    If the philosopher were to have put down his lantern, and but looked
    into a mirror, would he have found the honest man ?
    
    Part of my philosophy, which I often lose, but always return to
    is: Not to get my HOPES confused with my EXPECTATIONS.
    
    I HOPE to always be a source of love ans affection to my friends
    and aquaintences. I EXPECT I may occasionally fail.
    
    I am marrying again, not to find a 'completeness' within my new
    family, but to provide 'part of' the requirements that this family
    may be loving, kind, and helpful to themselves and to others. Having
    a family is not necessary to do this, but having a family helps
    to fulfill some personal wants, desires, and conditional needs not
    otherwise attainable alone (to me).
    
    Is it a risky proposition ? Sure, we both know that. Tearing a family
    out of one country, and transplanting them into another is always
    risky; given the language differences, cultural differences, and
    a few other differences. Its neither the simlilarity in intersests
    nor the differences which will be the saving grace of this family.
    
    It will be the converted effort of the the adults who brought us
    together (ourselves), our personal commitments to eahc other and
    to this union; which will spell the difference between "success"
    (stay married) or failure (get divorced because its easier). It
    could be a "failure" to stay married , and a "success" to get divorced;
    but that is not our mindset.    
    
    In whatever course you pursue, Bob, I wish you the sincerest of
    'good fortune'.And, I hope you will join the rest of my friends
    in monitoring what i say, for if I again 'mindlessly' speak against
    those who marry, or those who don't; you will chide me greatly for
    my stupidity; for this choice was mine alone, in 100% part, and
    I feel no reason to complain no matter what the outcome.
    
    My best wishes to you, and I hope you'll come to the  party.
    
    Bob_the_hiker