Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    
    
    	Did you steal my brother Bonnie??
    
    	I almost want to say "Give it up". Boys that age are absolutely
    	useless for anything other than chasing girls and driving cars
    	too fast.. I know cuz I was exactly the sam way 9 (Gulp) years
    	ago and that is the way my brother Dennis is today. Thank God
    	my brother Bill isn't like that and he's only a year older than
    	Dennis! (it's probably cuz he works for DEC.. :-))
    
    							mike

Four words suffice : "My house, My rules".
    
    or one acronym "TANSTAAFL". 

    Bonnie, through my own expirence I.E. going into the service at
    18, let him explore himself. There is an old saying you got to let
    go and they will come back. Trying to force him to tell you what
    he's up to may make what he's up to worse.
    
    Chores? I don't know take it slow and when he gets tired of running
    arround he'll proably start to help. 
    
    in final trust in the job YOU have done raising him and he'll show
    you how well you've done.

    
    How come I never went through this when I was 17?  Well, I'm an
    introvert and didn't have a lot of friends and I didn't bother getting
    a driver's license till I needed it to go to work....
    
    Yeah, I know, not much help.  Well, when these conflicts arose in
    my family, my parents would always lay out reasons for things that
    had little to do with the fact that they were my parents.
    
    Sit down and have a talk, and lay out some very practical reasons
    why you want him to do this stuff.  Like:
    
    "I want you to to ask to use the car, so I don't get the idea it's
    been stolen when I see it isn't here."
    
    "I want to know where you're going and when you'll be back, because
    I might need to get hold of you."
    
    "I want you to help around the house, because you are practically
    an adult human person and very soon you will have to shoulder
    considerably heavier responsibilities than this."
    
    Speak to the lad.  Sound him out.  And if he stays petulant, he
    hasn't finished growing up yet, and you can resort to the methods
    you use on children.
                                        
    DFW

    
    	Maybe when some "older" kids pull up and *laugh* at him for
    having "Dad's car", he'll realise that there is worth and benifit
    to carrying his own weight -
    
    	JJJ

    
    
    I was very hesitant to reply to this since I haven't any children
    at all let alone one 17. However, it stirred some very strong feelings
    and I thought I'd put in my 2 cents.

    A bit of History---    
    I have 2 younger brothers and we are all 18 months apart. when we
    were at 'that age' my brothers had similar attitudes. My father
    tended to be overbearing most of the time but he had the same thought
    as .2 "My house, My rules." There were times when I deeply resented
    the rules; thought they were too restrictive. But I was never the
    rebellious type (more of a mouse to my fathers lion but that's another
    story) I *could* understand that he could make the rules in
    his own house.
    
    My brothers, for one reason and another, were less understanding.
    The bottom line is that finally one brother could stand the rules
    no more and left. (This upset my mother terribly because at the time
    he had no job and nowhere to go.) The other brother put up with
    it (there are definite advantages to living at home) and still lives
    at home at the ripe old age of 26. (He does pay rent and do repairs
    to the house, cook his own meals etc.)
                  
    
    To sum up----- 
    It is my opinion (with its lack of practical experience) that if your 
    son wants to be "independent" and an adult he should understand
    the responsibilities that come with adulthood. Expecting other people
    to feed, clothe, house, and provide transportation for him without
    giving anything in return is not only irresponsible it is selfish
    and inconsiderate. 
    	If he is impervious to this argument then perhaps a stint of doing 
    his own laundry, fixing his own meals, buying his own petrol, and
    paying the car note would not be a bad idea. Independence is not
    = Carefree.
    
    Sorry this was so long. If this is a useless suggestion, chuck it
    out but I felt I had to respond. :^)
    
    LaDonna

    
    Ah, 17, was really only 4 years ago?
    
    My parents had an easy solution:
    The car was registered in Mom's name, and because my license expired
    at 1:00 am (as does your sons if you live in Mass.) The car Had
    to be back by 1:00.  Also had to ask permision to borrow the car.
    
    If I took the car without asking, or the car was not back by 1:00 
    (if I called with a real good excuse, like "hi I can't drive", it was ok...)
    then they would call the police and report the car stolen.  Real severe,
    but sitting in a lockup all night enforces the point, real well.
    
    As far as chores went, guilt and the car are good leverages.  Guilt
    takes a bit longer thou.  Mom never asked me to do a thing, but
    boy did she complain while she was doing it.  Eventually you'd do
    all the chores, just to shut her up...

    Good luck,
                                                 
    Clark.

     Give the kid a bit of rope.  He'll stub his toe a few times, but it's
     much better to get into a tight situation now, when he knows that he
     can fall back on his parents.  If you protect him from danger now,
     he'll likely just find it a few years down the road, when he may not
     be able or willing to use the same security net.  Of course he'll
     screw up -- how else is he going to learn? 
     
     I can think of nothing meaner or less understanding than the "it's my
     house [or car] and I'll make the rules" attitude.  A seventeen
     year-old simply does not have the option of buying a house, or even
     buying a car on his own.  If you aren't willing to share your
     possessions with your children -- and sharing does not imply the
     unilateral imposition of restrictive rules -- then you're placing a
     good-sized barrier between yourself and your kids.  
     
     --Mr Topaz

    RE: driving the car.
    
    	It wouldn't work with my brother. He's 18 and has had a total
    of 9 or 10 cars since age 16. Everything from a 77 Triumph to a
    70 Mustang Convertible (that he bought for a $100 and it runs
    like a champ).
    
    	Pray that it's only a phase and that he'll soon come out of
    it. (My Mom said it worked for me.. :-))
    
    							mike

When I was that age [8 years ago], it was like having 'all of the above'.

First and foremost:  "My house, my rules"

Second:  "You are allowed certain freedoms but you also have responsibilities"

Third: "If you have a problem with aspects of #2, we will review it on a
	case by case basis".

Fourth: "There is a mortgage/rent on this place.  If you are working you 
	will contribute what you can.  It will not be unreasonable and
	it will allow you more freedoms.  If you are not working, it will
	be waived, but you will be expected to contribute in other ways."

Fifth: "You want a car, you buy it.  If you can't afford it, but you can
	afford payments, we will TALK about co-signing a loan.  The car
	must pass 'approval'."

Overall:  "Nothing in life is free.  You earn what you get.  But there is
		a loving support structure here when you need it.  Not
		just when it's convenient for you."

Worked pretty good for me and it's what I plan to use when the time comes 
[in 17 years 2.5 months].

dj

    Boy, what a horrible age--I say it both in memory and in teaching
    kids that age every week.
    
    I remember being 17, and how much a HATED hearing "Until YOU pay
    all the bills, you do it MY way!".  However, I always had chores
    to do;  that's how I got my allowance.
    
    I should say here that I have no kids of my own;  but I do teach
    a group of them each week, and have since they were all 14.  What
    a difference!  They used to be "my boys", and thought they'd raise
    a little hell from time to time, it was nothing I couldn't handle.
    Now they are 17, and are at that "no longer a kid, but not an adult
    yet" stage.  They take their mothers' cars, and get in accidents,
    they mouth off to their dads, they shirk chores, and get in trouble
    at school.  Since I know that their "raw material" is good, I don't
    worry all that much--I know that they'll fall back to earth sooner
    or later.  But I do feel sorry for their folks right now.
    
    When they act up or do something irresponsible in my class, I have
    found that the only way I can get through to them is to talk to
    them like adults (even if they have been acting like children).
    They may laugh their heads off at me when they're alone, but I do
    it anyway.  I tell them what is expected of them;  that, like it
    or not, they have certain responsibilities, especially since they
    are older than most of my students, and that I expect them to set
    a good example.  
    
    As someone else noted here already, you do whatever works at the
    time, pray, and hope that the early training you gave them bears
    fruit.
    
    Good luck to you--and don't take any crap, either--your life is
    important, too!
    
    Jane

    I have a clipping on my refrigerator from an Anne Landers column.
    
    It was taken from a sign in a doctors office.
    
    		It reads:
    
    			Attention Teenagers!
    		If you are tired of being hassled
    		by unreasonable parents....
    		Now is the time for action!
    		Leave home and pay your own way
    		while you still know everything!
    
    	.10 has the right idea. Some are more mature than others and
    	can assume responsibilities without too much prompting...others
    	are absolutely useless...Boys & Girls. I think Girls are worse.
    	I.E. you got more to worry about.
    	4 boys and 3 girls is enough...time for me to cruise now.
    	Can't wait for the last 2 to leave home and do their own
        thing.
    
    	Then we'll sell the house and buy a 1 bedroom ranch with
    	no basement and no sleep sofa and hopefully live long
    	enough to be a problem for the kids :-))
    
    	Know anyone with unmarrieds in their thirties still living
    	at home? what a pain!
    
    	If you taught 'em right they'll make it past puberty and
    	you'll be proud as hell of them all. I am.
    
    				___GM___

    I have been enjoying reading all the replies. I would like
    to add that my son is not the kind of person that "its my
    house, its my rules" would work with. We have always encouaged
    him to be responsible and independant. He will listen to good
    reasons usually, to arbitrary rules, almost never. Today he
    abided by the fact that we had taken the car away becuase he
    failed to tell us where he was - even tho he had a second set of
    keys. Bascially I trust him and am very proud of him. We just
    want to convince him that letting us know where and when he is
    going is not an infringement on his life.

     > Give the kid a bit of rope.  He'll stub his toe a few times, but it's
     > much better to get into a tight situation now, when he knows that he
     > can fall back on his parents.  
    
    Be careful, the rope can become a noose around the parents neck
    and the equivalent of the apron string around the kid.
                                    
    I say base your rules on the following (there are more but from
    experience I rate these two high):                              
                                                   
    1.  Your understanding of your childs maturity level.  There are
    no absolutes that apply to each child.
                                                         
    2.  What effect (emotionally and monetarily) the rules and their
    enforcement, combined with problems they may cause, will have on the 
    family (including the parents).
                                    
                                    
    JEF                             

re .0
	In terms of chores,  etc.  A question in my mind is to what extent
	is he treated as an equal.  I am not venturing an opinion on how
	equally he should be treated as an adult,  but it seems to me
	that rights and responsibility are interconnected.  The
	level of responsibility such as chores he (or anyone in life) is
	likely to accept will tend to equal the amount of say he has in
	his life.  Where a child is financially dependent on its parents,
	this has two considerations:  (1) That it is not the parents role
	to satisfy his every whim,  but (2) it is not his fault that he is
	financially dependent on his parents.

	My personal two pfennigs (again I have no children yet) would be to
	encourage responsibility *by* alotting rights.  For example,
	one approach could be to involve him in say a monthly "board
	meeting" on how the family resources are organised in terms
	of revenue and equipment.  When he is more aware that his needs
	are in competition with yours and require joint decisions,  then
	he will be more apt to be responsible.  If your needs on the other
	hand are just as "unexpected" to him as his are to you,  then this
	seems to be a preliminary blockage.

	In terms of accountability,  it seems that he should have the
	freedom to say,  "I am not sure how late I will be out tonight
	or where I will be after a certain time."  But the important thing
	is that he should declare things in advance and keep any promises
	he makes.

re .2
>	Four words suffice : "My house, My rules".

	This seems on the extreme side.  Merely because one is a parent
	does not give one ownership,  but to some extent you have
	responsibility.  By choosing to have a child you have to accept that
	the child needs freedom.  It is your fault that he lives in your house.
	You chose to have him.  The opposing consideration (that you don't
	have to attend to his every whim and you have needs too) means
	that a middle course needs to be found and will develop continuously
	until the child is financially self-sufficient and negotiation
	won't even stop there.
	    
re .4
	This seems sound although I would not say a young person can be fitted
	into only two categories (responsible and irresponsible) - there
	is a gradation.

re .14
>    Be careful, the rope can become a noose around the parents neck
>    and the equivalent of the apron string around the kid...

	Yes I would agree: A "balancing act" is required.
                                    
Simon.

    Re .0
    
    Save yourself a few headaches...let the kid do what he wants...he
    will anyway.
    
    One thing I can't stand are parents who think they know what's right
    for an individual just because they're not 21. I think you have
    to start leading your own life by 16 or forget it, you'll be hopelessly
    lost forever in society! 
    
    re -2 and others:
    
    You're right, if you don't like it, leave, or put up and shut up!
    take yer pick.
    
    Bj

    My oldest boy will be eighteen next month.  He has his own car (bought
    with money he earned working in a gas station).  We have very few
    rules but those that we DO have are considered important and are
    adhered to (for example: no drinking and driving) voluntarily. 
    If he is at a party and has been drinking, he will sleep over rather
    than get in the car and drive.  He doesn't seem to mind telling
    me where he is going, but that doesn't restrict him from changing
    his mind and going somewhere else either.  He is very independent,
    responsible and mature but also has a lot of friends and loves to
    party and have a good time.  I trust him.  He has never given me
    a reason not to trust him.  Next year he will be going off to college
    and (because the dorms are full) he will have to stay in his own
    apartment.  I feel that he has had enough freedom to acquire the
    necessary skills to live alone successfully...(fingers crossed).
    Boys of that age are not children and can't be treated as such.
    I would never set down stringent (and usually meaningless) rules
    for him to obey or get out because I love him and I don't want him
    to leave until he is ready.  Its hard seeing our children grow up...
    (especially us protective mothers_:-).
    I gave up on chores long ago.  Now nobody does them until I can't
    stand it anymore and then I have a screaming fit and everybody pitches
    in to shut me up_:-)  (its worked so far...)
    My younger son gets paid to help out too (since he doesn't have
    a job yet).  
    I haven't the slightest idea of how to raise girls but I adore boys
    and especially teenage boys (lately).  They are so sensitive,
    considerate, full_of_life, adventurous, and somehow noble.  
    I'll bet your son will turn out just fine (how could it be otherwise
    with a mother like you Bonny?)

    RE: -1
    
    	Excuse me for disagreeing, however I'm certain that the "let
    the kid do what he wants" tactic you espouse is not really what
    you mean to say.  In some families that kind of attitude would lead
    to wild parties in the house whenever you are away, your car(s)
    being totaled on a consistant basis (DWI), any beer/wine/booze you
    keep on hand being stolen and passed out among freinds, various
    other sundry experiances like waking up at 3 am to find your car
    doused in gas cause somebody had a gripe.  These are the kinds of
    things that can and do happen to some families and they happen because
    the parents either don't have the backbone to to kick the kid out
    and make it stick or because when the kid does get in trouble, they
    bail him out.
    	Now I know that's not what you meant to say.  What you really
    meant to say was:  As long as he's not breaking the law and he is
    respecting my rights, he should be allowed to pretty much do what
    he wants.
    	Am I correct?                                             
    
    Rich
    
    PS  My own 2 cents would be in aggreement that the teenagers of
    a family should be brought more and more into the actual running
    of the household.  To many parents relate to thier teens as kids
    when the kids really are ready to assume critical decision making
    responsibilities as adults.  I'm not talking about where I want
    my bed positioned kind of decisions but decisions regarding household
    finance, running a checking account (the teens own), etc.
    One rule would be above everything else:  If a teen gets in trouble
    due to somthing he did, "Well you made your bed, now lay in it.".
                                                                     

I think the behavior patterns you describe are symptomatic of a problem Rich.
My son has never stolen anything from me.  He is allowed to drink beer socially
at home so drinking isn't a really big deal for him.  His friends buy their 
own liquor through older brothers and friends.  He has had his share of wild
parties but I was always home at the time to keep an eye on things.  We have 
always had a sort of understanding in that he always told me what was going on 
in his life and I never freaked at the truth, I wanted him to feel that there 
was nothing he couldn't tell me.  As far as respect for the law and authority
figures, ...some laws and authority figures do not deserve to be respected.
My sons use their own judgement in these matters as they have been taught to 
and that judgement has paid off more than once.  Occasionaly problems have
arisen but nothing that couldn't be worked out....and when I've been wrong or
over-reacted I'm not afraid to admit it.

Decisions regarding household finances are mine...its my house and my money and
(I feel) my right/responsibility.  He will be young for such a short time and 
(if things keep going the way they are in this world) it will be a very 
difficult future for most of these kids.  They usually come out of college
burdened with debt, their chances of buying a house and paying for it within
their lifetime seems rather bleak to me, they are under a great deal of 
pressure.  I believe that teenagers should spend a significant portion of their
lives having fun. 

>>One rule would be above everything else:  If a teen gets in trouble
>>due to somthing he did, "Well you made your bed, now lay in it.".
                                                                     
I totally disagree with this statement.  To me a family is there when you
need them...thats the difference between family and everybody else in this 
world.  If you are not there when your teen is in trouble, where does he
turn, the street, friends, drugs?  Everybody makes mistakes and everyone gets 
into trouble once in awhile.  Those who have help and support frequently learn 
from their mistakes and go on to lead happy productive lives.  Those who are 
left stranded to muddle their way through alone sometimes compound those 
mistakes into ruined lives.  If my husband or mother or son or anyone I loved 
got into trouble due to something he/she did (and isn't that how most of us 
get into trouble) I would do everything I could to help.  My boys know that 
and seem to feel very secure about us as a family.  Don't misunderstand me 
though,...I don't take any crap from them and they know that too.  

I believe that being a parent does not mean you go on a 21 year power/ego trip 
where you are always right and always in control.  Being a parent means that 
you teach and allow your children to learn all of the skills necessary for 
them to survive in environment/society they will have to live in.  I personally 
believe in ethics, integrity and honesty and I feel that my boys should and 
do embody all of those qualities.  I would not want a father or husband that
would not be there when I needed him....no matter what the reason and I believe
my boys will be the kind of fathers and husbands that will always be there for
their families,...protective and loving, but not afraid to tell a kid he is 
wrong when he is wrong.

    	Sorry, someone snuck in under me.  Reply .18 was refering to
    .16 not .17.
    	.19 (Ms. Pare?) has a very valid point about making your bed
    and laying in it.  I spoke hastly and now find that I should have
    conditioned that phrase.  The teenage years are very much like
    graduating from a tricycle to a two-wheeler.  At first the 2 wheeler
    has training wheels but eventually these come off.  The first couple
    of times these come off you run along side to catch 'em if they
    fall.  After a while they stop falling. 
    	I never really meant that if a teen gets into trouble a parent
    shouldn't help them out of it.  I guess my feelings lay more in
    the direction of teens (and adults) who habitually get into the
    same trouble over and over.  While I have no teens of my own yet
    (I've 2 girls and 1 boy ranging in age from 3 months to 4 years),
    I am the oldest of 6.  My folks had no dicipline problems with me.
    Child 2 did have his wild days but that consisted mostly of drag
    racing the cops, carousing and such.  Child 3 ran away with her
    boy friend and married down south. That caused alot of pain at the
    time and after she came home and had some unsettled years she finally
    settled down.  Child 4 is an alcoholic and he was the one who totaled
    5 cars in one summer (not all the cars were ours).  My parents kept
    bailing him out and making excuses and lending money and etc...
     He finally seems to be getting started on a straight life at the
    age of 29(?).  Child 5 ran away at 17 and she joined a motorcycle
    gang (not club, gang, the kind that like to beat people up for kicks).
    That story is still going on and at the age of 27 or 28 she's a
    druggie and an alcoholic and she won't admit it.  My mother is finally
    seeming to come around and apply tough love.  Mom has applied to
    the courts to have custody of child 5's child (her grandson) and
    the basic attitude seems to be that child 5 can go to hell.  Child
    6 is AOK thank God.
    	My basic feeling is that the first time childs 4 & 5 were arrested
    it was a big mistake to run down at 3AM and bail them out.  It
    has been over 10 years of bailing people out, paying for drug rehab
    (so we can get reduced sentences), driving to the airport at 2AM
    to pick the kid up (who says her boyfriend is going to kill her
    in a frantic phone call and then she doesn't show cause they make
    up and my parents worry for the next 2-3 weeks whether she's dead
    or alive and the next time she calls like nothing has happened!!!).
        This is where I'm coming from.
    	I still say it but now I qualify it.  "The first couple of times
    you get into trouble for somthing I'll help out, HOWEVER! If it
    becomes a habit baby then YOU made your bed, Now YOU lay in it".
       
    Rich

    	One of the previous replys mentioned some extreme
    	measure. Well...,
    
    	My stepfather had this policy with his children (1 son,
    	1 daughter), which was implemented the day they graduated
    	from high school. Simply stated, they knew they were to
    	pack up and move out. Period. There was no discussion
    	about this, that or the other. They each simply packed
    	and moved within 24 hours of graduation.
    
    	I'm glad that policy did not affect my brother or me (although
    	we basically did the same thing, give or take a couple of months).
    
    	Scott

    RE: .21
    
    	I think your stepfather was/is unreasonable.
    
    						mike

    Pardon me if I have missed someone, but the only answers that
    have really related to where we are as a family are Mary Pare's.
    I have no intention of layin down arbitrary laws to my son, nor
    are things around here anywhere near that serious. What I was looking
    for was "how do parents connect with a reasonable young man of
    post highschool and explain that what we want is 'share chores,
    and shared information, and we are trying to make the transition
    but we don't know how to tell him and convince him that this is
    a case of how to share a household, not a case of giving him orders.
    
    To further explain we are sending him to college in the fall - and
    we are all trying to work out what is reasonable...
    
    and again...he is a very reasonable person, but very sensitive,
    what I want to learn to do is to convince him that we are willing
    to let him be himself and yet let us all come to terms with what
    is fair in a big family.
    
    thank you all again for your answers
    
    B

    
    Re -1:
    
    It's been a while since I read this entire note, so excuse me if
    I repeat someone.
    
    By the sound of what you want to do, and how you would like to do,
    the only suggestion that I can think of is to sit your son down
    one evening for a family discussion.  Not parent to son, but adult
    to adult.  Tell/ask him the same things you put in .23, if he truely
    is a "reasonable young MAN" you should be able to discuss it openly
    and come to a mutually agreeable settlement.
    
    The trick is to deal with him as an adult, not the 15 year old brat
    he was 2 years ago. (not to imply your son is a brat! :-)
    
    This is how my parent always dealt with me and my older siblings,
    and it worked wonders.  Give it a try.
    
    Good luck,
    
    Clark.
    

    Bonnie --
    
    I haven't put this in before now because I wasn't sure how much it
    applied to your situation, but I think I'll add it just on the chance
    it's useful.
    
    I recently had a brief running battle with my 13-year-old daughter over
    how much she has to tell me about where she's going.  She thought that
    it was enough to tell me "I'm going out for a bike ride and I'll be
    back in an hour"; I wanted to know which direction she was going and
    who she was going with.
    
    After a couple of nasty fights we got a calm moment to talk about it,
    and she told me that having to tell me exactly where she was going
    spoiled the whole point of getting out to herself.  She wanted to be
    able to head out in the direction she felt like riding and go where the
    impulse took her.  Usually it was just to a friend's house or to the
    corner grocery. 
    
    I pointed out that while she's very grown up, independent,
    tough-minded, and intelligent, she is only 13, and going out without
    giving me any idea where she's going is unreasonably dangerous
    (accident, breakdown, or injury, not to mention unwelcome attentions.)
    
    We compromised: she will tell me the general direction she's going,
    who she's with, when she'll be back, and a couple of the most likely
    places she might stop. (They all sell ice cream.)  If she starts
    breaking any of these rules, I reserve the right to restore the
    restrictions. 
    
    So far, no problem.  Not only that, she's been telling me more on
    her own.
    
    A car is a much more serious matter, and I don't know where your
    son is in the habit of going, so I don't know if there are any useful
    parallels here or not.
    
    --bonnie

    	Maybe it would be helpful to explain to him your concerns,
    say you've asked others about it and then show him a printed copy
    of this note and all the replies.  Just a suggestion.
    
    Rich
    
    PS. I can't help but think that in the final analysis, you are the
    only one who is really capable of coming up with the solution, 
    you've lived with this person for 17 years and know better than
    any of us what makes him tick.

    Most of the replies have a message for you. The point being THEY
    ARE ALL DIFFERENT.  Ya gotta treat them as such. Some are responsible
    at 13 others are are 26 going on 12
    
    Much of their development is formulated by the parents some by
    siblings and others by the "cats they swing with". Don't be
    surprised if the Peer force wins out. Get to know all their
    friends and pick the WORSE one...thats the one they'll chose
    as their best friend....GUARANTEED!!!
    ....and don't try to discourage their association, It'll only
    strengthen the bond between them. Your next task is to reform
    the "WORSE" friend. So you see you got lots of fun ahead.
    
    				___GM___

    Bonnie,
    	I just had one of "those talks" with my kid too.  
    
    	"graduation is over, party-time is over, it's time to
         locate some roommates and make plans for college next 
         year, ... UNDERSTAND"
    
    I got the appropriate number of sighs but he seems to know I'm serious
    and he (thank you God) appears ready and willing to settle back
    down after post-high_school_graduationitis. 
    
    (sigh, ... and the next one is only sixteen)
    :-)_mary                                            

    Bonnie,
    
      I am 21 and have been going to college for the past 3 years. 
    I have some input for your problem.  When I was that age my parents
    were to constricting.  In the long run it did pay off because I
    have been a responsible individual throughout my life since then.
    Basically what I have to say is if your son lives with you or gets
    basic support from you (i.e. $$) you have the right to request basic
    things from him.  I see no reason why he could not do some chores
    around the house to help out.  Afterall he helps live in the house
    why can't he work in it too.  A family can not function without
    mutaul cooperation.  As far as the car goes, no car keys until 
    you get some sort of answer on where he is going and approximately
    when he will get back.  If he is going to be late just have him
    ring you to tell you when he will be in.  Easy as that!  These we
    rules that I followed and things worked out fine for me and my parents,
    and whenever I go home for a weekend those rules are followed even
    today. 
    
    Ron.

    Thank you Ron,
    
    Things have improved tremendously around the house....it turned
    out that a major part of the problem was that he was working too
    many hours and not getting enough sleep! We all sat down and developed
    some workable guide lines when he was rested and haven't had
    any further problems.
    
    Bonnie

    This is a sort of a follow up. Our son is due home in 5 days from
    his first semester in college. He is carrying a B average at
    Wesleyan going into finals. When he came home at Thanksgiving we
    were delighted with the thoughtful mature person that he has been
    growing into. I guess I will just expect that kids turn a bit weird
    right at high school graduation when I come to dealing with his
    siblings.

    really, how? :-)