Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    Mais oui !

    hommenotes.. let me see.. I had about 9.2 weeks of French once..
    ^^^
    mennotes!                    
    
    I should think this may be a statement regarding all the notes in
    French as of late? correct?
                        
    Well as much as I wish I had a command of the language (French that
    is) alas I do not.. and it is quite bothersom to try and make my
    way through them..  
    
    lovely language.. honest.. but there are a *few* of us who are missing
    out!
    
    gailann
      

    There has been an extensive discussion on the topic of other
    languages (esp. French) in conferences in RAINBO::WOMANNOTES,
    and I refer people there.
    
    My position is that if a noter does not feel comfortable writing
    in English, then they should use their native language; understanding
    that without a translation into English, the note will be unreadable
    by the majority of noters (especially the Americans!)  I would urge
    anyone who writes in languages other than English to try to connect
    with someone to provide translations.  However, the informal method
    seems to have worked reasonably well in WOMANNOTES, so I see no
    real problem with it here.
    
    In summary; PLEASE write in English if you can.  If you can't, then
    write anyway and we'll do the best we can.
    
    					Steve

    I like the idea of notes not written in English, if for no other reason
    than that it will remind us of the fact that the E-net covers places
    other than New England.  Frankly, I am getting more than a little tired
    of people assuming that all noters live in Massachusetts or New
    Hampshire.
    
    -- Mike

    Re: -1 ....  Well, I for one DON'T like the notes writen in anything
    other than the conference's mother language.  I have been quite
    outspoken of this in Womannotes, and hated the fact that they were
    HERE too...  but decided that one battle was enough to fight.  However
    since Richard was kind enough to start it (after GKE translated
    for me - thanks!!)......
    
    I consider it quite rude to write in a foreign language in a conference
    ... whether it is french being written in an english conference,
    or english being written in a french conference.  I wouldn't have
    the gull to do, and I wish other people didn't either...  If you
    still INSIST on doing it, then at least put an english version (or
    whatever the language of the conference is) for the inconvenience
    that you are causing.  You obvisously understand the language enough
    to be able to write a reply... use that language.
    
    My 5 cents worth (for the 10 cent version, see womannotes :-)...)
    
    GLK

    Re: .5
    
    Gale, haven't you been paying attention at all?  This is not
    an "English" conference.  Neither is WOMANNOTES.  (Nor is
    HUMAN_RELATIONS, for that matter.)  Yes, the majority of noters
    who read these files are only fluent in English, but that is
    their problem.  

    While I would certainly PREFER notes to be in English, I,
    speaking as a moderator of this conference, accept notes
    written in other languages if the note would otherwise not
    get written at all.  This is, after all, an international
    network, and not everyone is fluent in written English.
    It would then be my hope that a translation be provided as soon
    as possible.
    
    Of course, if the situation gets out of control, and the conference
    fills up with untranslated notes in various languages, we'll have
    to see what can be done.  But I don't see a problem at this time.
    
    By the way, Gale, an ability to read English, and to write
    a few phrases, does not mean that one can necessarily compose
    a detailed reply in that language.  (And considering what passes
    for "English" in these conferences, I sometimes wonder how
    fluent some Americans are at it.)

    I consider this an issue for the moderators to address.  If you
    have gripes, please take them up with the moderators by MAIL.
    Merci.  (Thank you.)
    					Steve

    As another moderator of this conference, and as the fella that hosts
    the conference on the machine, I'd have to agree with Steve (re: .6).
    We should allow foreign languages, at least for the time being.
    
    The alternative, as I see it, is that a variety of other people would
    be unable to voice their opinions.  It seems unfair to restrict access
    to the conference simply because somebody speaks some different
    language (as long as translations are available).
    
    As moderator, I need to insure that I read each note to insure that
    something inappropriate is not added to the conference.  Thus, I take a
    few extra measures: I note the foreign notes, and I wait a bit for a
    translation.  If no translation is offered after a few days, I imagine
    that I'd have to ask someone to translate.  To date, this hasn't been
    necessary, as translations have always been offered.
    
    For other readers, it is easier: just ignore the foreign postings. In a
    bit, a translation should be available.
    
    Really, this issue must be a group effort.  Other parties must be
    willing to spend the time and trouble to offer translations, and the
    English readership, as a whole, must be patient.  If it weren't for the
    efforts of the translators, non-English postings wouldn't be possible.
    
    Besides, it's sometimes fun to see the translators struggle with
    certain phrases or ideas ... :^)
    
    	-- Jeff

    I took my question to another conference... please feel free to "FREELY"
    discuss the issue there, where it should be discussed... KP 7 and
    all that jazz...
    
    Gale
    
              <<< HUMAN::WRKD$:[NOTES$LIBRARY]ETIQUETTE.NOTE;1 >>>
                         -< Etiquette for Notes Users >-
================================================================================
Note 86.0  Languages other than the "mother" language  in a Confere   No replies
TORA::KLEINBERGER "misery IS optional"               28 lines  27-MAY-1987 00:01
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    Question:
    
    A lot of conferences (mostly non work related) seemed to have "other"
    languages other than the primary "mother" language of the conference
    springing up in them.  This creates quite a roadblock until somone
    wanders in who takes the time and patience (and happens to know
    that language) to translate it.  Often it is not translated as the
    author would have wanted it, but it is translated.  Other times,
    people try to translate things, and make a royal mess out of what
    was supposed to be said, and what was being said.
    
    Now, I could understand it if the person writing/replying did not
    understand the "mother" language, but it is obviously they do (by
    most of the authors' own admission), and just don't write in that
    "mother" language.
    
    I thought it was just me that was getting annoyed, but when posed
    in another conference, there were plenty of others who shared the
    same opinion.  A good compromised seem to be let the "other" language
    be written, but also include the "mother" translation in the same
    topic. However, this has yet to be done.
    
    What exactly is the "correct" etiquette ruling on this delicate
    matter?  
    
    ADVthanksANCE
    
    Gale

    Gale, if "misery IS optional' you certainly seem to be
    excercising your option to the fullest. Why not start
    a conference XXX::ENGLISHSPOKENHERE ? :-)  Of course 
    you rule out participation by a great many Americans. :-)

      Re: . -1  Thats a terrific idea....  KP 7 will get it for you!
    (but only you) oops I forgot to put a silly little smiley face here!
    
    Did you forget I didn't start this topic, nor did I start it in
    the "other" conference either, I just added my thoughts to the issue?
    
    Dud-uh-ah... bet you did!
    
    G
    
    P.S. I have the "right" to be miserable!  After putting your hand
    through a fire to get to a plug that is burning (literally) away,
    to get the plug out of the wall, along with enduring the electrical
    shock that went with it, and the resulting third degree burns...
    if I wanted to be miserable yesterday, I had that right!

	I started this topic because I was a bit miffed at having several
	notes, written in a language that I don't understand, without any
	by your leave, thrust into my face. I am irritated in my ignorance
	of the French language, as I am in my ignorance of several tens of
	others, that is my problem, and something I must attend to. 
	
	I have been lucky enough to work in several countries throughout
	the world, amongst peoples of differing nationalities, and consquently
	have broadened my experience a great deal, in the company that I have 
	kept it has almost always been the custom to speak English. The main
	reason for this is not because English is an international language
	or even because I was a stupid Englishman who could not speak Arabic, 
	French, German, Korean, Japanese, Flemish and sundry other languages,
	but more likely because it is polite to speak to people in a tongue
	that they can understand. I have been addressed by people who could
	not manage English, they employed a translator rather than rabbiting 
	on and hoping somebody will do the deed of translating for them.

	I am not a narrow minded Englishman who insists that all persons 
	worldwide should learn English if they are to impinge upon me and 
	mine. I would suggest though that if anybody wants to address a
	predominatly English speaking forum, then it would be good manners
	to do so in English, through a willing, and able translator, if 
	necessary, (there seem to be plenty around).

	One suspects that if one were to go to Deutch and start up in English
	one would get a severe rocket pretty pronto.

	If our newest recruit feels it's necessary to carry on in French
	(and who am I to say she shouldn't) then I would feel that an English
	translatiion should be there in the Same note/reply.

	In Steves Reply about it being an issue for the moderators, I disagree.
	It is an issue that we all need to think about, DEC is an international
	corporation, now as electricty gets installed in more and more countries
	we are going to have more and more respondents from more and more none
	English speaking places. If you don't believe me, just look at the
	growth in notes from the UK in the last year or so.

Richard.
Wishing to discourage no one form contributing, but wishing we could get a
policy sorted out before the Dutch arrive. (eight shift six shft zero)

    The notes files are for *everybody*, not just for Ms. Ellen Gugel
    or Ms. Gale Kleinberger who can only understand English.  I just
    pass over the note until a translation is offered.  I just don't
    see the problem.  If you sweat over the little things in life like
    this, just how on earth do you handle the *real* issues?
    
    And speaking of etiquette - my etiquette dictates to me that I let
    *everyone* have their say, whether they can speak my language or
    not!
    
    	-Ellen

    let's stop being so provincial...
    
    it's not rude to use another language, unless one uses the other
    language to purposefully exclude others from the discussion.
    
    please, let's all participate in the way we know best, and let's
    all welcome everyone's participation.
    
    
    bruce

    Please ... this is not a "Men's issue" as per the conference guidelines
    in 1.1.
    
    I really don't want to see a long and involved discussion here.  If you
    have an opinion on foreign language postings, please respond to the
    poll in 108.0. If you want to discuss this further, refer discussions
    to the ETIQUETTE conference.  As for allowing foreign languages, it's
    up to the readership of this conference as a whole, not just the
    outspoken ones that post notes.
    
    	Thanks,
    
    	-- Jeff

     This is more of a reply to 108, but the moderator won't let me
     reply to that note.
     
     Ellen G. hit it on the head when she said that this is a fredom of
     speech issue more than anything else.  If you want to proscribe notes
     written in non-English tongues (because some people don't understand
     them), how about notes written in poor English?  These could be
     misuinderstood, too.  Or notes using big words.  Lots of people might
     not understand.  Or notes that don't agree with what the majority
     thinks.  Would that make the xenophobes happier? 
     
     And about the idea of a "readers' poll".  Here is note 108, written
     only in English, saying that the a vote among the majority will decide
     whether or not non-English notes will be permitted.  First of all, how
     can you possibly suggest that free speech is a "majority-rules" issue
     -- does the moderator not recognize minority rights?  Second, the
     notion that note (108) would be written in English only stands as bute
     testimony of the insensitivity of the idea.  Sort of like a vote in
     the pre-60s South, when blacks were effectively disenfranchised, about
     any civil rights-related issue.
     
     Anyone ought to be able to express himself or herself in any way
     that's comfortable, so long as the fundamental rules of the conference
     and the corporation aren't compromised.  The onus should be on the
     reader to understand, not the writer to make him or herself
     understood. 
     
     --Mr Topaz 

< Note 107.16 by CALLME::MR_TOPAZ >


     
�     Anyone ought to be able to express himself or herself in any way
�     that's comfortable, so long as the fundamental rules of the conference
�     and the corporation aren't compromised.  

      True: however if the *moderator* cannot read (and understand) the
      notes, then they have no way of knowing whether the note violates
      the rule (until somebody who can read it does so and complains).
      
      /. Ian .\

    I am taking a big chance by replying to this topic, since one of the
    moderators has stated that this discussion does not belong in MENNOTES.
    However, I believe that, while this is a general etiquette issue, it
    also pertains specifically to the policies of this conference.  Is it
    inappropriate to discuss conference policies within the conference?  I
    would strongly argue that this discussion *does* belong here.  So, with
    the threat of censorship hanging over my head, I will give it a try... 

    I am a little confused about the strong objections that some people
    have raised.  Even for conferences that I follow actively, many of the
    discussions do not interest me, and I find myself making active use of
    the keypad "," and "3" keys.  Is it really that difficult to do the
    same when you see a note that you do not understand?  I only real
    problem I see is that the writer may have something valuable to say
    that either does not get translated, or is translated poorly.  But this
    is the writer's, not the reader's problem, and it is the writer to whom
    we should direct any solution. 

    As I mentioned in an earlier reply, the fact so many Digital employees
    work in New England leads to a provincialism that I find insulting to
    the rest of the Digital world.  In various conferences, I see
    announcements of events (parties, conferences, seminars, etc.), with
    invitations to "come on down and attend". In the personal interest
    conferences, we see the so-called "noters parties", which are, in fact,
    New England noters parties; the rest of us cannot just fly thousands of
    miles to go to them.  Richard, the author of the base note, surely
    finds similar examples of U.S. provincialism.  If it takes a few
    foreign language notes to teach people that there is a world outside of
    New England, then I say "Bueno". 

-- Mike

    
    >>  -< Hay muchas idiomas en el mundo >-
        
    sorry I could not resist.. I'll be good now I promise!
    ;-) ;-) ;-)
    

    re: .16
    
    I think (I hope!) I speak for the other moderators when I say this:
    We've stated our opinions already, and we feel that foreign language
    postings are fine as they are.  However, some readers are SCREAMING
    about it, clearly quite upset by what we've said.
    
    There's no way that I'd moderate a conference where freedom of speech
    was not encouraged; the issue is not weather or not to allow foreign
    postings, but weather or not to allow them as they are.  The problem
    is, to change the way things are might be sufficiently inconvenient to
    foreign people as to eliminate foreign postings all together. I would
    NOT like to see that happen.
    
    re: the "readers' poll":
    
    Again, this is not a freedom of speech issue. No matter what, foreign
    postings WILL be permitted.  The question is: Must the writer contact
    some other party to translate the message first?  Personally, I hope
    not, but that's for the conference to decide.  I consider this similar
    to voting for an issue on a ballot ... let the people involved decide.
    
    As for 108.0 being posted in English ... good point.  I wrote it in
    English because that's all I'm fluent in (if I tried REAL HARD, though,
    I might be able to deal with pig-Latin :^)).  If translators would like
    to MAIL (to RSTS32::COFFLER) 108.0 to me translated to other languages,
    I will be happy to post them as replies to 108.0. I, of course, welcome
    votes from ALL people, regardless of sex, creed, color, or nationality.

    -----
    
    I felt it was important to respond to Mr. Topaz' reply since he did
    raise some valid points.  I'll repeat, however: The issue of foreign
    postings is NOT a "Men's Issue".  Read 1.1 for clarification on this.
    ALL conferences abide by ETIQUETTE decisions, but ETIQUETTE issues are
    not discussed in, say, PHOTO or CONSUMER (or other non-work related
    conferences).  We must live by whatever is decided in ETIQUETTE, so we
    are AFFECTED by what they decide; this does not mean that this is the
    appropriate place to discuss it.  Please respect this.

    RE: .22  "Scandia lingua"
    
    
    
    
    
                              Taler ikke Danske?
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

Just a stab in the dark really, but...

It may be that Digital policies concerning conferences and languages are
irrelevant anyway, if they could be shown to violate your own US Constitution.
I suspect that if anybody attempted to stop somebody writing in a language
other than English it might well be a restriction of that person's rights. And
I know how much you Americans value your rights. 

Course, in this particular case the notes originate outside the US, and are
being written (for all I know) by foreigners, but they are also published
inside the US, so we'd have to let the court decide. You get the gist I'm
sure... 

Ma'sala'am wa shukran.

Tarik.

			See you wedensday?

Ma'sala'am wa shukran habebe.
Kassbar Kid.