| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 89.3 | | GOOGLY::KERRELL | It's OK to know you're OK | Tue Apr 07 1987 05:24 | 12 |
| re .2:
> nobody seemed able to address the question in 86.0 about dealing
> with a daughter's SEXUAL awareness...
I started a new topic for this question to avoid taking 86 now a rathole!
Oh well now you've said it....
It is your opinion that 'nobody' has 'seemed' to address the question,
personally I think there have been some good replies.
Dave.
|
| 89.4 | This can't be a serious question. | SNEAKY::SULLIVAN | Oliver Wendel Jones | Thu Apr 09 1987 00:52 | 8 |
|
The comments did not deride having Madonna as a daughter, but
a daughter with similar promiscuity. That should be easy to
understand, if not to agree with. Implied promiscuity, if not real
promiscuity.
Bubba
|
| 89.5 | | GOOGLY::KERRELL | It's OK to know you're OK | Thu Apr 09 1987 05:30 | 10 |
| re .4:
> The comments did not deride having Madonna as a daughter, but
> a daughter with similar promiscuity. That should be easy to
> understand, if not to agree with. Implied promiscuity, if not real
> promiscuity.
I never knew Madonna was promiscuous (sp?), is this fact?
Dave.
|
| 89.6 | | APEHUB::STHILAIRE | | Thu Apr 09 1987 12:04 | 8 |
| I doubt anyone here really knows if Madonna is promiscuous, but
she gives the *impression* of being a pig. Who wants a daughter
who gives the impression of being a pig? I always thought the idea
was to give the impression of having class regardless of how
promiscuous you may or may not be.
Lorna
|
| 89.7 | | GOOGLY::KERRELL | It's OK to know you're OK | Thu Apr 09 1987 13:37 | 6 |
| re .6:
It was my *impression* that Madonna was a clever, attractive and
entertaining person.
Dave.
|
| 89.8 | what would people call you? | CEODEV::FAULKNER | personality plus | Thu Apr 09 1987 14:39 | 5 |
| yeah
a chance to put in moi favorite reply.
Regarding Madonna.....If you walk like a duck, and talk like a duck,
and act like a duck........
|
| 89.9 | | APEHUB::STHILAIRE | | Thu Apr 09 1987 14:55 | 6 |
| Re .7, no, David Lee Roth, for example, is a clever, attractive
and entertaining person. Madonna, on the other hand, is clearly
a slut. :-)
Lorna
|
| 89.10 | in fact it's encouraged :) | CEODEV::FAULKNER | personality plus | Thu Apr 09 1987 15:29 | 5 |
| well Lorna I guess you pretty well proved the old double standard
that you can act anway you like as a male and it's okay.
nobody cares if a guys promiscuous.
|
| 89.11 | Madonna & Dave | LA780::LEAS | No such thing as objective opinion | Thu Apr 09 1987 18:27 | 17 |
|
re .9
Dave Lee Roth? Entertaining? Good joke!!!!
Ooops. Sorry if you weren't joking.
re .10
well said: Mr. Roth presents himself as promiscuous (paternity
insurance) and seems to be accepted...
as for whether or not Madonna presents herself to be promiscuous,
one can only make an opinion by what she presents to the public:
"Daddy Don't Preach" - a teenage girl coping with her pregnancy;
and how about the recent video she did with the psuedo symbolic
seduction of a young boy...
Rob
|
| 89.12 | Different Strokes | SNEAKY::SULLIVAN | Oliver Wendel Jones | Thu Apr 09 1987 18:34 | 9 |
|
Well I, for one, definitely do NOT accept David Lee Roth.
I look down on him in the same way I look down on Ms. "Boy Toy".
Bubba
PS: "Look Down On" seems a bit harsh. Actually I don't care which
lifestyle they choose, as long as it doesn't affect me.
|
| 89.13 | Madonna for thought | USMRW1::REDICK | | Thu Apr 09 1987 19:48 | 18 |
|
Do we know she is a slut??? Is this fact??? Not that I'm a big
Madonna fan or anything (the music is o.k. and I really don't care
what's behind it) but what exactly is it about her that bothers
so many people??? Obviously there are a great many people that
support her...and don't tell me it's only teenagers. I've seen
men gauking at her and be-bop-ing to her music...and don't tell
me that it's o.k. if you guys gauk at her just so long as she's
not in your house!!! I'd have David Lee Roth for a son anytime!
I think what bothers most people about Madonna is that she does
what she wants and doesn't give a sh*t what people think about
it...that's a pretty good attitude if you ask me. Also bothersome
is the fact that Madonna can "get into" so many of these kids minds
and lives the way parents can't!!!
...tracy...
|
| 89.15 | Think a moment. | SNEAKY::SULLIVAN | Oliver Wendel Jones | Thu Apr 09 1987 23:01 | 8 |
|
Does her daughter wear a medallion which says "Boy Toy" ?
Does her daughter pose for nude photographs? Does she present herself
in movies as a sexual "pass-around-pack" ? No? The comparison
falls apart then, doesn't it?
Bubba
|
| 89.16 | | GOOGLY::KERRELL | It's OK to know you're OK | Fri Apr 10 1987 05:24 | 24 |
| re .15 (and many others):
The reason I started this topic is because I believe people are making
judgements about a person based on media propaganda and no real knowledge
of that persons beliefs or morals. I still see no evidence to the contary.
> Does her daughter wear a medallion which says "Boy Toy" ?
So what - I think its quite amusing - certainly dosn't make her
promiscuous.
> Does her daughter pose for nude photographs?
I hope you are not suggesting that anyone that poses for nude photographs
is promiscuous! All I think it shows is a relaxed attitude towards the body
by the person posing. I personally know several people who have posed nude
and I take great exception to them being labeled this way by you.
>Does she present herself in movies as a sexual "pass-around-pack" ?
So now you are what you portray? We'd better go out and arrest Clint
Eastwood, the guy is clearly a cold blooded murderer.
Dave.
|
| 89.17 | Whose Values are being examined | ATTILA::CRAVEN | Rudolph was a Drunk | Fri Apr 10 1987 06:22 | 16 |
|
Well said Dave !!!!
If you have never met someone, how on earth can you judge them or
their values ????
The "IMAGE" has been created to earn money, ( works quite well if
you ask me ) and any comments can only relate to this. It is therefore
interesting to see peoples "double" standards coming out in this
note.
Prejudice, who me !!!!!!! NEVER ........ YUK .............
Kim
|
| 89.18 | | APEHUB::STHILAIRE | | Fri Apr 10 1987 10:20 | 31 |
| I *was* joking about David Lee Roth (I'm a Springsteen fan myself-now
*that's* sex appeal :) ).
As to Madonna, there are some things that I don't like about her.
Someone already mentioned the song, "Papa don't preach, I wanna
keep my baby". Just the advice I want my 13 yr. old daughter to
be listening to! No talk about birth control, legal abortion, college,
a high paying job, and economic independency from men! No, just
"i wanna keep my baby". I'd just love to see my daughter married
and pregnant as a teenager - about as much as I'd like to see her
going off to war. Then, Madonna has another dippy little song about
"true love, oh baby, true love" - probably for the 5th time that
month - so why call it true love. I don't like the suggestive strip
tease act in her recent video. I don't like the "boy toy" pendant.
She's making money by presenting women as sex objects - a role a
lot of women have been working very hard to live down lately. She
also plays up the idea that to be appealing to a man, a woman has
to dress like a hooker. (Some women would like to be thought
attractive but don't want to look like hookers!) She may be doing
just what she wants, but she's also acting just the way a lot of
men have wanted women to act for centuries - like "boy toys" and
I don't like it.
There are other women rockers who write real songs about real feelings
and present themselves as people, not sex toys - like Chrissy Hynde
of the Pretenders and Stevie Nicks (who's far more pretty than Madonna
if it comes to that), and even Joan Jett who just gets out that
and rocks without doing a strip tease.
Lorna
|
| 89.19 | So now we know why Madonna's a slut! | GOOGLY::KERRELL | It's OK to know you're OK | Fri Apr 10 1987 10:53 | 47 |
| re .18:
> As to Madonna, there are some things that I don't like about her.
> Someone already mentioned the song, "Papa don't preach, I wanna
> keep my baby". Just the advice I want my 13 yr. old daughter to
> be listening to!
So Madonna is a slut because you don't like the words to her songs?
> No talk about birth control, legal abortion, college,
> a high paying job, and economic independency from men! No, just
> "i wanna keep my baby". I'd just love to see my daughter married
> and pregnant as a teenager - about as much as I'd like to see her
> going off to war.
I am quite sure without even knowing your daughter that she is hardly
likely to be strongly influenced by a single two-minute pop song.
> Then, Madonna has another dippy little song about
> "true love, oh baby, true love" - probably for the 5th time that
> month - so why call it true love.
Its just a song for ****** sake!
> I don't like the suggestive strip
> tease act in her recent video. I don't like the "boy toy" pendant.
> She's making money by presenting women as sex objects - a role a
> lot of women have been working very hard to live down lately.
She is NOT presenting women as sex objects, she maybe presenting herself as
one though.
> She
> also plays up the idea that to be appealing to a man, a woman has
> to dress like a hooker. (Some women would like to be thought
> attractive but don't want to look like hookers!)
I object to people being labeled and condemed for the way they dress. I
also don't believe she is playing up any such idea. She knows the way she
acts in videos sells records because of sex but that does not mean that is
normal for all women, I certainly don't set my expectations of women by the
occasional media output!
As for Chrissy Hynde, she is sells record because of sex - its just more
subtle.
Dave.
|
| 89.20 | .0 is a red herring | ULTRA::LARU | full russian inn | Fri Apr 10 1987 11:13 | 5 |
| it seems obvious that the hidden question in .0 is
image vs. reality
(what a concept!)
|
| 89.21 | | APEHUB::STHILAIRE | | Fri Apr 10 1987 11:30 | 19 |
| Re .19, well, that's just my opinion of Madonna. I guess you and
I disagree on what bothers us in the media.
As to the word slut or the idea of being promiscuous. I could ask
a much more basic question such as what exactly is *wrong* with
somebody being promiscuous, as long as they have not promised fidelity
to anyone, and as long as they are not purposely hurting others
(by stealing someone else's husband, for example), just what exactly
is wrong with being promiscuous? (At least once a cure for aides
has been found.)
As for Chrissy Hynde, some of her songs have nothing to do with
sex if you read the words on the album covers. She really writes
about a pretty wide variety of things, not just love. I guess I
find subtlety appealing. (I wonder if I'd find Chrissy more appealing
than Madonna if I were a man, instead of a straight woman?)
Lorna
|
| 89.22 | sales would drop to 0 for her | CEODEV::FAULKNER | personality plus | Fri Apr 10 1987 11:47 | 6 |
| re: all the pro-madonna stuff
I pose this ?
what would happen, suppose she modified her act......acted lady
like , wore widows bras on the inside of her clothes , not outside,
acted more serene.....YOU KNOW DARN WELL WHAT WOULD HAPPEN!
|
| 89.24 | looked awful young to me !~? | CEODEV::FAULKNER | personality plus | Fri Apr 10 1987 12:20 | 2 |
| re .23
how old was she when she posed nude?
|
| 89.25 | She don't write the songs.... | FANTUM::DIGGINS | THE CRUSHER | Fri Apr 10 1987 14:58 | 9 |
|
To all concerned, I don't think Maddona writes her own songs.
It's usually left up to her producers what songs she sings, in
other words the songs are tailor made for her. Who knows maybe she
would like to do a song about the socially oppressed!! Half dressed
of course!!
Steve
|
| 89.26 | Showing my age. | GENRAL::FRASHER | An opinion for any occasion | Fri Apr 10 1987 18:21 | 15 |
| I sure wish I knew the words to these songs, it'd be easier to follow
the argument. I listen to the tune, not the words.
Remember when "Louie, Louie" was thought to be a naughty song?
Because nobody could understand the lyrics.
I hope that Clint Eastwood isn't portraying all men as being cold
blooded killers!
If this Madonna person cleaned up her act, she'd probably sink out
of the sight of the public eye and never be heard of again.
Like Abba, Linda Ronstadt, Barbara Mandrell, Olivia Newton-John,
Karen Carpenter, etc. They weren't too popular either, right?
Spence
|
| 89.27 | Get real | SNEAKY::SULLIVAN | Oliver Wendel Jones | Fri Apr 10 1987 18:30 | 10 |
|
Who cares who wrote the songs? She sings them, and perpetuates
the sleazy image she has. If she makes a mint from it, then more
power to her. I severly dislike the messages she gives her adoring
child fans (i.e. Papa don't preach). And, don't give me that bull
about her secretly being a vestal virgin.
Bubba
|
| 89.28 | different approach? | ULTRA::LARU | full russian inn | Fri Apr 10 1987 18:38 | 6 |
| perhaps the question should be rephrased:
what exepctations do you have for your [potential] daughters, and
what happens when she doesn't meet them?
/bruce
|
| 89.29 | all right, I'll bite | CREDIT::RANDALL | Bonnie Randall Schutzman | Fri Apr 17 1987 15:26 | 69 |
| I expect I'm really going to get flamed for this, but here goes:
I am fortunate to be the mother of a strong-willed, intelligent,
perceptive, and rapidly maturing 13-year-old daughter whose two
main goals for the past several years have been either to be a rock
star or a fighter pilot. Her heros are Chuck Yeager and the Canadian
band Platinum Blond.
Lorna's comment that she would as soon see her daughter become Madonna
as she would see her go off to war (paraphrased; I hope I accurately
interpreted your words?) is neither a joke nor an exaggeration for me,
rather a simple statement of a future that could be all too real.
I am a lifelong pacifist who demonstrated (peaceably only, thank you)
against the Vietnam war. My daughter wants to shoot down other planes
-- presumably with people in them. This bothers me far more than the
suspicion that when and if she makes it as a rock musician she'll be
parading around on stage in far less clothing than she presently wears
to bed -- perhaps even in clothing that most of us wear only in bed.
But she is her own person, and she will have to make her own decisions
in life. If that decision happens to include practices of which
I disapprove -- well, she's the one who has to live her life. I
don't. No matter how much I want to, I can't.
She may decide to become promiscuous, in either a good or a bad
sense. I wouldn't make that same choice, but her sexual behavior
will be her own choice. All I can do is make sure she's aware of
the risks (physical, emotional, and all).
If she does continue in her desire to be a rock musician, I can
only hope that she will display half the determination, style,
creativity, professional pride, and artistic integrity that Madonna
displays (and that she won't have to decide she's a reincarnation
of Marilyn Monroe to do it!)
Bruce, Dave, is this what you're asking?
--bonnie
p.s. A couple of asides here:
1. I thought the video for "Open Your Heart," which someone described
as showing Madonna seducing a young boy, actually portrayed the
reverse: She's trapped in her sexuality and decides to retreat
with this boy to a pre-sexual state of carefree friendship --
essentially HE rescues HER. Certainly the final scene, as they
walk up the hill tussling like a couple of puppies, portrays
childishness, not seduction.
2. "Pappa Don't Preach" is at least willing to look at a problem
most of us wince at and pretend doesn't exist. As a former unwed
teenage mother, I can testify that the feeling she describes
is valid.
And would you rather she sang, "I'm pregant but I don't care,
I can get an abortion just down the stairs"? (Before someone
yells at me, no I am not advocating abortion.)
3. Someone asked about Madonna's age when "the nude pictures" were
taken. If you mean the ones that were printed in _Playboy_, she
was about 22 at the time. According to the text that accompanied
the article (what, you didn't read the text??), she was working
as an artist's and photographer's model at the time, and the pictures
were taken either by a class or as a class or practice assignment,
I forget which.
But as someone said earlier, nude photographs have nothing to
do with promiscuity, either actual or implied.
|
| 89.30 | Hello!? Earth to ostriches! Come in please! | OPHION::HAYNES | Charles Haynes | Fri Apr 17 1987 19:17 | 28 |
| The original question was "Why would Madonna as a daughter be a
problem?" After reading the replies to the basenote, it is perfectly
clear to me why most of the respondents would have problems.
They would have a strong willed daughter with a firm idea of what she
wanted to do, and they wouldn't be able to deal with it. They would
call her a "slut" and a "sleaze". Because she had decided to live
a lifestyle they disagreed with, they would reject her.
There would be no communication between parent and daughter, merely
judgement and scorn.
Hey folks! Wake up! "Papa don't preach" is aimed *exactly* between
your eyes. Why do you think we have 13 year olds getting pregnant?
Why do you think we have the courts authorizing birth control for
minors *without* parental consent? Why do we have courts allowing
*abortion* for minors without parental knowledge? You can scream
and yell all you like, but the situation is real, and it's here
now.
You can posture and pontificate all you like, but the question posed
in .0 is serious. What *would* you do with a daughter who's moral
attitudes challenged your own. I've seen one or two serious swings
at this problem, and a bunch of people being judgemental.
Let's get back to the real question.
-- Charles
|
| 89.31 | | APEHUB::STHILAIRE | | Tue Apr 21 1987 18:13 | 26 |
| Re .29, let me just clarify the Madonna, fighter pilot scenario
by saying that yes I would hate to have my daughter decide to go
to war, and yes, I would hate to have my daughter give the impression
that I think Madonna gives of being a sex-object, sleazy appearing
woman. But, if she COULD sing or play an instrument I would never
object to her being a rock star! As I mentioned before, there are
plenty of rock stars who don't appear as sleazy as Madonna (I really
don't care for her music either, if I did, I'd buy it no matter
what image she has, but I just don't) - but, Cyndi Lauper, Chrissie
Hynes, Joan Jett, Stevie Nicks, Pat Benatar - they're all rock
stars and they don't appear sleazy to me. (Just saw Billy Idol
last week at the Centrum. He'd make a nice adopted son :-) )
Re .30, I have no objection to teenagers using birth control or
having abortions. In fact, they're both excellent ideas. I just
want my 13 yr. old daughter to keep getting good grades in school,
get a college education, and a high paying job so she doesn't have
to depend on a man to support her, and I want her and I to keep
getting along and having good times together like we did last week
at the Billy Idol concert. I don't think I would totally reject
her no matter what she did. As .29 said, she is the one who has
to live her life, not me. But, I do have some hopes for her and
there are some fates I hope she avoids.
Lorna
|
| 89.32 | Desires not demands | SNEAKY::SULLIVAN | El Cajon de los Puercos | Tue Apr 21 1987 21:49 | 9 |
|
Yeah, Lorna, I think some of the respondents are mistaking desires
for demands. We may desire certain things from our children (or
possible children), but no one has said that they demand those things.
We are very likely to accept many things which are not 'ideal' in
our eyes, but are unchangeable. Such is life.
Bubba
|
| 89.33 | desires can be worse | DEBIT::RANDALL | Bonnie Randall Schutzman | Wed Apr 22 1987 08:58 | 29 |
| The distinction between desires and demands is, from the child's
point of view, very close to meaningless. In fact, failing your
parents' wishes can be worse than refusing their demands. Unless
the parent-child relationship is sick, children WANT to please their
parents. Kids want to give them 'things' (used in the most abstract,
nonmaterial, sense here) that make them happy.
Even worse, children tend to assume that if they've disappointed
their parents, it's because of something wrong inside them, not
because the parents' wishes are not reasonable. It has taken me
years, literally, to live down my mother's disappointment that I
didn't choose a nice secure comfortable home and conventional life
(see the self-esteem note for details), and she has never once demanded
that I do anything with my life. In fact, she has never once actually
told me in so many words that she is disappointed with me. But we
both know.
I suspect that if you are open about your desires for your children
of either sex, so the kids know where you stand, it's less a problem.
They know you're going to be reasonable.
But the hidden wishes -- whew! That's murder.
--bonnie
p.s. An aside here -- Billy Idol would have been my definition of
male sleaze in music . . . I drool, but he's sleazy.
|
| 89.34 | Au contraire. | SNEAKY::SULLIVAN | El Perro de la Luna | Wed Apr 22 1987 19:31 | 9 |
|
Oh, I think demands are definitely the worse of the two. As some
of the recent comments made clear, demands (by definition) mean
you're not going to accept the child any other way. Desires, on
the other hand, mean you wanted some other traits to be shown, but
accept whatever comes. Plain and simple.
Bubba
|
| 89.35 | I give up | DEBIT::RANDALL | Bonnie Randall Schutzman | Thu Apr 23 1987 09:15 | 13 |
| OH NO IT'S NOT PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
Sorry to shout, but when you've spent all of your adult life trying
to live down and recover from your guilt, shame, and pain of having
DISAPPOINTED your parents' WISHES, you don't take it anywhere near
this lightly.
This is obviously one of those issues that people who haven't suffered
through don't understand, and I don't intend to psychoanalyze myself
and my family history in public any more than I already have, so
I will simply leave it at this . . .
--bonnie
|
| 89.36 | | SNEAKY::SULLIVAN | Beware the Night Writer! | Thu Apr 23 1987 19:37 | 8 |
|
No intent to OVERsimplify, but when the option is being toss
out on your keester and/or disowned, the uninitiated layman usually
opts for disappointing Daddy. Sorry to insult, but I'm not accostomed
to carrying guilt for long periods.
Bubba
|
| 89.37 | dad's ok though !!! | SHRBIZ::ESDDEV | | Fri Sep 11 1987 12:24 | 13 |
|
RE: 89.31
Most people have a man support them... their father
and people think that's ok....
$bill
|
| 89.38 | No, not always; that's a generalization | XANADU::COFFLER | Jeff Coffler | Fri Sep 11 1987 13:35 | 20 |
| re: .-1
That's clearly a generalization. Yes, many woman are "supported"
(financially) by men. And many woman are not. Today, a far larger
portion of women want independence (financially and otherwise) than
was so, perhaps, two decades ago. Today, a large portion of woman
have achieved independence.
Do I think it's okay? If a woman wants to be "supported" by a man,
and if the man is willing, then fine, if that's what they want. Is
that what I want? No way.
To say "people think that's okay" (as in .-1) is pushing things a
bit. No, it isn't "wrong" for a man to support a woman. Just as it
isn't "wrong" for a woman to support a man (I know of several
instances where this is the case). If I had a daughter, though, I'd
want her to be independent and financially self-supporting. Not all
fathers think it's okay for their daughters to want to be supported.
-- Jeff
|