Conference quark::mennotes-v1

        Headline - 15 Scotsmen die in road accident!!
        
        Reason - someone dropped a penny and it rolled under a truck.
        
        Ban it??    NO  way - stereotypical jokes are the same as any
        other humo(u)r...meant to  be  laughed  at  (or with) and not
        believed. 
        
        Andy (a Scot).
        

        Please, guys, cut out the examples.
        
        We've gotten a complaint about the ethnic jokes.  I won't
        (at least at this time) hide the notes, because the authors
        were clearly not claiming any truth in the ethnic slurs.
        Still, such "jokes" aren't necessary... even for a discussion
        of ethnic humor.
        
        	/dave

        Humor does basically originate as a response to stress, and
        certainly "humor" has been used to express hostility at least
        as often as its been used to express anything else.
        
        The pleasure one gets from hearing a joke is often a sense
        of superiority over the fools described... or just a sense
        of relief that it was someone else (as in "slipping on a
        banana peel" slapstick).  That's one reason why humor is
        so cultural... different cultures lead to different tensions,
        and a joke which doesn't relate to one of your tensions is
        less likely to be appreciated.  Someone who enjoys falling
        on banana peels is probably less likely to see any humor
        in such a schtick.
        
        As for whether it's healthy to express hostility with humor...
        well, it's more healthy than a direct physical attack... and
        much less healthy than acceptance of others.
        
        And of course, the generic disclaimer: not all men do so,
        nor do *only* men do so.
        
        	/dave 

        Re: .3 
        
        Dave - I'll answer for my response, as I wrote it! :^)
        
        If anyone can object to an ethnic joke told by someone of the
        same ethnic grouping, then they're in need of a sanity check!
        
        I'm a highland  Scot  -  born  in  Kyle  of  Lochalsh, Wester
        Ross-shire,  and we're reputedly  the  second  meanest  group
        (after  Aberdonians!)  Are  you  implying  that  I'm  showing
        hostility to my own people?
        
        Andy (no flames - just shaking head in disbelief!)
        

    I'm  not convinced that ethnic jokes are really based on a perceived 
    ethnic characteristic of the people involved.  Example  Polish jokes 
    are  common  in  America,  Irish  jokes  are  common in England, and 
    Irishmen tell Kerry jokes ...  Indeed as far as I can tell everybody 
    tells  jokes  about  some  other  group.    The jokes are frequently 
    identical, and I  certainly  don't  claim  all  ethnic  groups  have 
    identical  characteristics  --  with  one exception: they are not my 
    ethnic group!
    
    So are ethnic jokes basically xenophobic? 
    
    /. Ian .\                                 
    
    PS: my familly (on my Mother's side) originated in Kerry so I  could 
    I guess answer the question in my title, but won't

    Re: .5
    
    I am not personally offended by the jokes, but they CLEARLY violate
    an explicit corporate policy against such items, so I feel they
    are indeed not appropriate.  It is not necessary to give examples
    of ethnic jokes to discuss the subject raised in .0
    
    					Steve

    
    
    Back to the subject. I do recall reading somewhere that without
    the outlet of humor, laughter we'd all go nuts! 
    
    By being able to laugh and joke about something that could really
    effect yo{ it's like a steam valve. Crying can work in the same
    way. 
    I like to joke, and have fun especially at work, but never to offend
    or hurt anyone.
    I'm here to have fun!
    
    Cal
     

    Objections to Sandys' Andys' joke are clearly absurd.
    
    Others seem to have been deleted.
    
    As to the TOPIC, jokes are a reaction to stress, according to
    trick-cyclists.

I think I read somewhere that laughter is a child's response
to the undercutting of a tension by some anomalous event.  So
the implication is that there is always some threatening
situation that is made non-threatening by the "punch-line"
of the joke.

The anomalous event is supposed to be the juxtaposition (or
superimposition) of a totally distinct and incongruous view
or interpretation of a situation on top of the carefully
built-up introduction that describes the situation initially.
In a pun, an incongruous word is substituted for a similar
sounding word.  In more long-winded types of jokes, the
punch-line defalates an elaborate build-up that has preceded
along a different line of reasoning.

In line with that, many of the ethnic jokes I have heard end
up standing the stereotype on its head, to comic effect!

    I have loved humor all my life.  In fact, in some respects, my life
    IS a joke.  I have found that ALL humor can be offensive to someone
    because it is designed to help us laugh at our short comings, and
    we all have them.
    
    To cope, it is necessary to laugh in the face of adversity.  Humor
    is the preasure release.  
       
    If you can't laugh at yourself, you have no business laughing at
    others.  That is how I feel and I don't mean to force my opinion
    on anyone.  The advice is free (and worth every penny).
    
    Mike

    	Another note which does little more than point out just how
    intolerant and naive many people in the U.S. are.  It is quite sad
    so many of us exert so much enery telling other people how to
    act, dictating our personal values while ignoring the rights of
    others.  Dictating, by the way, should not be confused with educating.
    
    	Is it any wonder there is such a strong movement in the U.S.
    to burn books, dictate behavior between consenting adults in their
    own bedrooms, force prayer into the classrooms, etc.  Why can't
    we live and let live?
           
    	Ethnic jokes are dumb, mostly unoriginal and rather harmless.
    When they are sufficiently crude they should be ignored.
    
    Douglas

>    If you can't laugh at yourself, you have no business laughing at
>    others.  That is how I feel and I don't mean to force my opinion
>    on anyone.  The advice is free (and worth every penny).


Excellent!!!  very true.


Eagle, I'd just like to ask you how you reconcile a desire to BAN ethnic 
jokes with a desire for FREEDOM. I would feel banning and freedom to be 
mutually incompatible concepts?


Jerry

        In an ethical sense, it's wrong to ban anything... the proper
        solution is to educate people so that things like ethnic
        humor fade out of existance quietly on their own.
        
        On the other hand, in the meantime, Digital has to take
        pragmatic action to protect itself from people who might
        consider anything recorded on Digital property (such as bits
        on a disk drive) to be representative of Digital policy,
        and take corresponding steps (e.g., a law suit).  That, of
        course, is only a guess... but it seems likely.
        
        As for requesting that jokes not be entered in this topic...
        it's very simple.  Some people are bothered by their presence,
        and they have nothing whatsoever to contribute to the discussion
        of humor.  It's a matter of simple courtesy to avoid irrelevant
        stabs at someone.
        
        Of course, some ethnic jokes (I stress, "some"!) really are
        funny... but in each such case, there's absolutely no need
        to use any particular nationality/race/whatever.  I recall
        that someone once published a book of "ethnic jokes" based
        on the exploits of two bumbling imaginary species residing
        on some faraway world.  The joke, if any, remains.  The insult
        is gone with the specific human stereotypes.
        
        So if you *really* need to include a joke to examine it...
        why not try it that way?  If it sounds stupid... it was probably
        stupid to begin with.
        
        	/dave

    How can one discuss n offensive topic without examples?
    
    I'd say that it is an impossible dream to think that we inhabit
    academic cirlces and that all our colleagues can share our academic
    interest in offensive material.
    
    When someone takes the negative attitudes, they drag the rest
    of us down into their mire.
    
    Andy
    

	I'm sure I got lost somewhere in this note.......
	however, I shall add my tupence worth! 

	I am not sure where the humour and stress bits are related, I really
	feel quite humourless when under pressure, or feeling stress.
	When feeling hostile (hardly ever) Sarcastic comment would be the
	best I could manage, that should not be mistaken for humour.
	Could it be said that humour is the outpouring of joy from one
	person hoping to inflict that joyous feeling on another?

Richard.

I believe I misunderstood the use of BAN, it struck me as meaning ban as in 
not anywhere, as opposed to a ban in notes.

Jerry

    If you insist on using examples of ethnic-type jokes, you could
    use a fictional name, such as Ruritanian, or whatever.  Let's
    face it, though.  Ethnic jokes almost always have hostility as
    a basis.  For every one person of a certain background who says
    he's comfortable telling jokes about his own ethnic group, there
    are dozens of others of the same background who will be offended.
    
    If you want to tell ethnic (or sexist or whatever) jokes privately, I'd
    be the last to say you shouldn't.  But NOTES is not simply a private
    cocktail party, and DEC has made it VERY clear that ethnic, racial and
    sexist jokes will not be tolerated on its computer systems.  If
    everyone insists on filling up this conference with their favorite
    joke, eventually someone will get offended and the conference will be
    in trouble.
    
    For more on this topic, I'd recommend reading "Isaac Asimov's Treasury
    of Humor", especially his sections on "Ethnic" and "Bawdy" jokes.
    Asimov offers his opinions on why we tell jokes like these, and
    their effects on people.
    					Steve 
    
    

    This response to an ethnic joke got the whole bar laughing.
    
    Ya know what's black & blue and bleeds?
    
    
    The next guy that tells an Italian joke!
    
    	Vinnie_the_bartender
    

Well, I agree with Richard. I would say that laughter and stress don't go 
together. But then again, what do I know about it?...

So, as is customary in this topic Here Is The Joke (today's favourite). Not 
slurring an ethnic minority, but probably still libelous...



What's the difference between a cow and the James Last Orchestra?



Well, a cow has the horns at the front...

...and the arsehole at the back...!

Tarik.

        Laughter and stress don't go together?  Ever seen someone
        who had a close call start laughing?  It's so common it's
        a stereotype.  You've all seen it, in movies, TV... and almost
        certainly in real life.
        
        I know the time I fell out of a tree and busted my toe, in a
        graveyard, my brother and I were giggling and telling "graveyard
        jokes" for hours.  It wasn't because we thought falling out of a
        tree in a graveyard was funny: it was because of the rather
        close call of falling 15 or 20 feet from a tree, with only
        bicycles for transportation, well away from any help.  It was,
        in short, a reaction to stress. 
        
        Don't try to tell me that's uncommon... I've seen it too
        many times.
        
        The stress need not be physical... it could be a subliminal
        discomfort with the surroundings: strange people, a strange
        place, an overdue project... "ghost story" jokes are very
        popular with little kids alone at night.  They relieve the
        stress of being "alone" in the dark by laughing at it.
        
        The telling of ethnic jokes doesn't necessarily betray a
        specific discomfort with the sort of people mentioned in
        the joke (I'm sure to many people they are just jokes, like
        any other), but they almost certainly began that way.
        
        	/dave

I haven't read the base note or the replies.  However, I think I laugh
most often due to stress.  I hate it.  If I want to say something
"difficult" to someone, I very often preface it with a giggle (I suppose
to soften what I think is going to be a "blow") to release pressure.
I once laughed when I found my cat dead at the side of the road and was
horrified at my response because I was with some friends and they thought 
I was a little deranged.  And I know I've had the urge to laugh when I 
hear really _bad_ news, like "so-and-so's been hurt" (or sick, or near 
death).  It's extremely embarrassing because it's so inappropriate.

CQ

>        Laughter and stress don't go together?  Ever seen someone
>        who had a close call start laughing?  It's so common it's
>        a stereotype.  You've all seen it, in movies, TV... and almost
>        certainly in real life.


Stress is *a* reason for laughter, not the *only* reason for laughter,
humour is another reason for laughter.



Jerry

           
>    	Ethnic jokes are dumb, mostly unoriginal and rather harmless.
>    When they are sufficiently crude they should be ignored.
    

No.  You shouldn't ignore oppression and oppression is very harmful. 
Jokes can be and often are used to harm people and to perpetuate
stereotypes.  Every time I hear a "fag" joke, I cringe.  If nobody
speaks out against such "jokes," then people will continue to tell
them, and they will reinforce a lot of hurtful lies about people of
color, gays and lesbians, and people of different races and religions.

I might add that if you hear someone telling an offensive joke and if
you do not speak up, you are just as much at fault for perpetuating
that hatred and prejudice; the people telling/hearing that joke
interpret your silence as implicit approval. You have to take some of
the responsibility too. 

As far as I can tell, no one has brought up the point that you don't 
need to cut someone else down in order to be funny.  Resisting ethnic 
jokes is not an attempt to do away with humor; it's an attempt to do 
away with prejudice.  I think that the idea is to laugh WITH someone 
not AT anyone.

Another question: has anyone tackled the idea that men use offensive 
jokes more than women (this is MENNOTES)?  Do men respond to stress by 
joking about serious situations more than women do?

Just looking at various NOTES files, it seems as if it is the men who 
undermine serious conversations by making inappropriate jokes and 
remarks, moreso than the woman.  Any comments?



						--Gerry

    When "some men" joke about subjects I know they find painful to
    them, I wonder if they feel weakened (less "masculine") by
    acknowledging their pain.  "Women" are often subtly trained that
    they are weak, so perhaps we are more willing to say out loud, "this
    hurts", as they have less of a need to put out a "strong" image.
    
    The quotemarks are there to signify that I do not in any way feel
    this is universally true of all men and women, and that I do NOT
    equate the inability to acknowledge pain with what is masculine
    or strong.
    
    Lee

    
    	RE:.34
    
    	EXCELLENT!
    
    	Todd

    Re .34
    I gotta show that to my wife!  She'll love it.
    
    Spence

pshaw. David Letterman is my hero...

Bahama Mama

re:.34
    Are you SURE that it shouldn't have been labeled "�19xx Dave Barry"?
    
    Nah, it was better than his normal standards!

    Well, whoever originated it did a fantastic job!!  I'm still chuckling,
    especially about men veing vaguely aware of short people...
    
    Lee

    re .34
    
    I read it twice just to see if I could find anything false.  Well,
    I didn't.
    
    For a moment, there, I thought you were writing about my wife and
    me.

    RE; .34
    
    	All prejudice.
    
    	When it comes to Male/Female relationships, I am disappointed to
    find that DEC men are no better than working class men I meet in my
    local bar.
    
    	Hi-tech = Lo-brow?
    
    							- Karl
    

>    	When it comes to Male/Female relationships, I am disappointed to
>    find that DEC men are no better than working class men I meet in my
>    local bar.
    
As a working class man from a working class family I resent that remark.
I also feel that you are making sweeping generalisations on the basis of a 
single reply (.34).

Dave.

    I'm offended, too. My auto-mechanic father and his friends would walk
    out on many of the male/female jokes and cracks that are routinely
    offered in the name of humor at some DEC meetings I've been to. 
    
    --bonnie

    Yo Karl, what makes you think there are no working class
    men here ?  there is life outside the neat little cubicles.
    
    Dana_who_gets_his_hands_dirty_every_day_and_is_proud_of_it >:-)

    Re; .44
    
    	So, perhaps Dec men are *less* enlightened than working class
    folk? 
    
    	My intent was not to offend (though I apologize - to working class
    folk), but rather to express my dismay over the number of notes
    dealing with serious male/female issues that degenerate into
    wisecracks about 'women drivers'.
    
							- Karl    

    Re: .47
    
    All this demonstrates is that you can find jerks anywhere.  There's
    no question on the employment application to screen out such
    tendencies.  (Nor should there be!)  Perhaps also the serious people
    who don't have anything specifically worthwhile to contribute to
    the discussion stay silent.
    
    Being a DEC employee doesn't automatically make you better than
    anyone else, and we shouldn't expect it.
    
    				Steve

    re: .47 => re: .44 => re: .34
    
    "Enlightenment" doesn't have any connection to profession or
    occupation. There are sensitive, considerate, perceptive men who
    treat women as equals running multibillion-dollar corporations,
    sleeping on park benches, and everywhere in between, just as there
    are jerks in all the same places. 
    
    You can't make blanket statements about men in any economic or ethnic
    or any other group being more or less enlightened than men in any
    other group. Or women, for that matter. 
    
    There are many sensitive, considerate, perceptive men who treat 
    women as equals, who love their children, and who are nothing 
    like the stereotype portrayed in note .34. Thank God I'm married 
    to one of them. 
    
    What does this have to do with humor? Mainly that though .34 was
    very creative, witty, and well written, it wasn't funny at all. 
    I was saddened by the blindness and narrowness it illustrated. The 
    man and woman portrayed in that joke are missing out on so much
    of the richness each has to offer the other. They aren't seeing
    each other as human beings at all but as a couple of cardboard 
    cutouts dancing on the screen of what they think society expects
    them to think and feel. 
    
    And most of the people participating in this discussion think it's
    TRUE?  We're farther from enlightenment than I thought.
    
    --bonnie, who doesn't mean to step on toes but feels rather passionate
    on the subject

    
    	BOY, LIGHTEN UP FOLKS.....
    
    	This was just a little humor...after all it broke up my night
    	of doing work.......take it with a grain of salt....or pepper
    	or whatever......
    
    	RE STAR::MALIK
    
    	If all men are less then whatever your buddies at your local
    	bar, I guess you don't think to much of yourself 8*).....
    
    				Mike.....who_was_being_nice_for_a_change
    

    How can someone take the contents of .34 and think that it says
    anything serious about anything or anybody?  Someone mentioned 
    Dave Barry.  There is a conference on Dave Barry.  You can take
    any of his articles this way.  They are written for humor, not to
    be taken as fact.  I remember one of his articles about how stupid
    dogs are and then went into details about a dog that he knew.  I
    have dogs that are nothing like he mentioned, but I laughed until
    my sides hurt because of his humorous way of pointing out what he
    thought was stupid.  Of course, we all know that he doesn't really
    feel the way he writes.  The same applies to Andy Roonie.
     
    re .49
>    And most of the people participating in this discussion think it's
>    TRUE?  We're farther from enlightenment than I thought.
    
    I remember seeing one reply that stated that the author thought
    it was true and I suspect that the author was joking.
    
    Finally, Karl, what is your definition of 'working class' and why
    is it assumed that DEC isn't included in the working class?  Since
    I work at DEC am I assumed to be more than human?
    
    Spence

    Sorry, Spence, I jumped to the perhaps unjustified conclusion that
    one couldn't find the 'joke' funny if one didn't think there was
    at least a certain amount of truth to it.  
    
    I started a lengthy defense of my position, but I think I explained
    myself adequately earlier. If you think it is merely funny, not at all
    serious, and doesn't even implicitly comment on the condition of
    male/female relations in this country, nothing I can say is going to
    convince you otherwise. I won't waste my 'breath' and my keyboard
    arguing about it. 

    Perhaps the most offensive thing about it was the crack that "men
    are vaguely aware of some short people in the house."  If you think
    that is merely funny . . . 
    
    --bonnie, throwing up her hands in dismay and walking away
    

>    	When it comes to Male/Female relationships, I am disappointed to
>    find that DEC men are no better than working class men I meet in my
>    local bar.
 
	Working at DEC, makes you working class, to assume anything else is
	pretentious in the extreme.   

>    	Hi-tech = Lo-brow?
    
 	Furrowed-Brow in this case.


Richard.

    
    	My comment, while hardly scientific, was based on ten years
    association with Dec programmers and writers.
    
    	IN GENERAL, these people *seem* to be more intelligent, aware,
    and literate than people I meet outside of Dec.  I am not surprized
    to overhear a discussion of Bergman films at lunch, or time/space
    physics at the coffee station.  Such conversations, while not
    impossible, *would* be surprizing at the local bar.
    
    	My problem is the hard-to-give-up notion that intelligent, aware,
    literate people are not racist/sexist/etc.  I need to remind myself
    that there are some highly intelligent axe-murderers out there.
    
    	To get back to the subject (humor and hostility), Bonnie hit
    the nail right on the head - people (and I am speaking generally
    here; not picking on anyone in particular) often don't even know
    when they're being offensive.  Saying that 'it's just a joke' or
    (god, I hate this one) 'It's just my opinion' does not soften the
    effect.
    
    	QUESTION:  Someone tells you a very funny but very cruel racist
    joke.  You can't help but laughing (even though you may groan and
    say 'God, that's terrible').  Would you retell it?
    							- Karl

    
	re. 54
    
    	retell joke:
    
        	I have before, I will again......
    
    			Mike
    

    
      Re: .55
    
                          Grrrrrr!!!
    
                            Bubba
    

    re:54
    
    Even if I wanted to retell it and remembered it (usually forget
    everything but the punchlines anyway), I can't make the words come
    out of my mouth (you know the bad n-word, the bad p-word, the bad
    k-word, ad nauseum).
    
    Now a good, sexist MCP joke is easier, but no men EVER laugh at
    those :)
    
    Lee

    Re: .57  Men not laughing at MCP jokes
    
    Oh yeah?
    
    The average woman would rather have beauty than brains because
    the average man can see better than he can think.
    
    Now how many guys out there think this is funny?  (I do)
    
    Rich
    

    re .60  -----> 8-)
    
    Spence

    
    
    	Male Chauvinist Pig.
    
    							mike

  re .60 Funny, But TRUE!
    

    i find .64 to be offensive and should be deleted.

    re: .-1
    
    I don't, and I'm a man (judging by the fact that I wear contact
    lenses, I *HOPE* I can think better than I can see).  People are
    welcome to state their opinions in this file as long is it isn't
    insulting or overly threatening.
    
    If you have a problem with the contents of this file, you should
    send MAIL to one of the moderators, as the introduction states.
    If you truly feel that .64 was offensive and should be deleted,
    please state your reasons why in MAIL to me or another moderator.
    
    	-- Jeff (Co-moderator of MENNOTES)

    Gads, dredging this old thing up to chase a rathole.
    Consider yourself warned ;-).
    
    Re 67.42, .51, .53, .54:
    
    Wanted to comment on some cultural blinders, here, folks.
    I think our British-English-speakers use the phrase "working
    class" in a different sense than us American-English speakers.
    Spence noticed this but got ignored.
    
 .51>   GENRAL::FRASHER "Disguised Colorado mountain man"  
 .51>   Finally, Karl, what is your definition of 'working class' and why
 .51>   is it assumed that DEC isn't included in the working class?  Since
 .51>   I work at DEC am I assumed to be more than human?
    
    Richard even got a bit bent about it.
    
 .53>   ROYCE::RKE "RKE, News at ten, Reading"
 .53>   Working at DEC, makes you working class, to assume anything else is
 .53>   pretentious in the extreme.   
        
    Karl did respond...
    
 .54>   STAR::MALIK "Karl Malik"
 .54>   	My comment, while hardly scientific, was based on ten years
 .54>   association with Dec programmers and writers.
 .54>   
 .54>   	IN GENERAL, these people *seem* to be more intelligent, aware,
 .54>   and literate than people I meet outside of Dec.  I am not surprized
 .54>   to overhear a discussion of Bergman films at lunch, or time/space
 .54>   physics at the coffee station.  Such conversations, while not
 .54>   impossible, *would* be surprizing at the local bar.

    ========================================================================
    Very minor point of course.  My personal (American, as it happens)
    thought is that the British are much more aware of allusions
    to aristocracy (or the lack thereof) than we are, hence, "working
    class" is a hot button.  Americans tend to use that word to describe
    manual laborers, welders, fitters, longshoremen (persons;-), etc.
    Karl doesn't consider himself to be in the "working class", he's
    probably more comfortable describing himself as a "professional".
    To Richard, that smacks of lesse majeste'.
    
    At least thats how I read it.  
    
    DougO 

    Hope this doesnt break any rules....
        
    Have just been reading some of the Feminist jokes in WOMANNOTES
    and I am reminded of a couple of famous Oscar Wilde sayings to that
    effect.

    Since some of the feminist humour is pretty "down-tredding" towards
    men - I thought it was about time to launch a minor counter-offensive
        
    <warning - the following may be considered offensive to women>

    Oscar Wilde often told of his experience walking home late one
    evening, completely intoxicated. He was confronted
    by an old and rather well known local woman who he
    considered a complete pain in the *ss.
    
    Any way she shouted at him "MR WILDE - YOU ARE DRUNK!!!!!)
    
    to which he replied...
    
    "And madam - you are extremely UGLY!!! - and tommorow - I'll be
    Sober!!!"
    
    One of Oscars most popular sayings was:
    
    Men have MANY faults
    Women only TWO
    EVERYTHING THEY SAY
    AND EVERYTHING THEY DO!!
    
    
    And finally there is a story about Oscar Wilde sitting in parliment
    falling asleep whilst a local feminist MP had the chair. Seeing
    him dozing contently she cried...
    
    "MR WILDE - DO YOU HAVE TO SLEEP WHILST I AM SPEAKING?"
    
    and he replied
    
    "NO MADAM - I DO IT PURELY BY CHOICE!"
    
    hope this doesn't offend anyone - cheers
    
    
    
    

    RE .68 - JUST A LITTLE NOTE....
    
    The second statement in this reply was stolen by some feminist who
    made a fortune, swapping the words MEN and WOMEN and making bumper
    stickers and posters and selling the result to other feminists.
    
    Oscar - where are you when we need you???

    more Oscar Wilde sayings (from memory, excuse if they are inexact):
    
    "I can resist anything except temptation..."
    
    "The only way to get rid of temptation is to yield to it"
    
    (both, I believe, from Lady Windermere's Fan, a play he wrote)