Conference quark::mennotes-v1

99.999% of the time, I'm very offended by the use of the word "broad".  I 
leave that .001% open because (for reasons unbeknownst to me) occasionally 
I meet a person who strikes me as outrageously funny even when using language 
that I'd normally find offensive.  It's not possible to imagine myself 
laughing at the use of the word broad, but I suppose stranger things have 
happened.  I was raised in a medium-sized city in western Massachusetts.  

"Old lady" I think of as kind of quaint.  I associate it with the late 60's 
and early '70's peace-and-love hippie days.  But it's also slightly derogatory, 
to my ear.  I wouldn't want to be referred to as such.  I don't think I've heard
anyone use that expression for years (and years).

CQ

    Being a musician, I always used to hear men refer to women as 'Chicks'.
    A couple of times I found myself using the same term in casual
    conversation, in which the women present did not find it pleasant
    or amusing (can't blame them). I've since broken myself of such
    offensive 'habits', yet, I don't think chick sounds as sleazy as
    broad does. BTW, this commonly used term by male musicians has since
    changed...the women of the world are now being refered to as 'Mamas'...
    certainly not any better than its predecessor!
    
    Bj

    
    Most of the "woman words" are used by teen-agers. I learned all
    those terms -- broad, babe, chick, 'lady,' mama, old-lady, etc --
    in high school, & used them there. When I reached college (71-72) 
    the woman's movement had started & being an "enlightend kinda' guy"
    I used the word "woman" almost to a fault (even for kids! -- a
    girl was a 'little woman' in my more insane days...).
                                                        
    After a time the vocabulary for "women" disappeared, with the 
    exception of "bitch," which I reserved for women who gave me
    a hard time. (My vocabulary for men of a similar ilk is much
    broader, including "bastard" and various adjectives both 
    preceeding & following it -- is this sexist of me?)
    
    I rarely correct adults when they use words that offend me
    because it usually does no good. If someone over 21 uses word
    'old lady' they will probably always use it. I do form a quick
    & possibly prejudiced opinion of them based on those words, & 
    view them with suspicion. Like .0, I assume they have little
    respect for their partner. Men who use the other words only
    demonstrate that they haven't grown up, & I doubt a tongue
    lashing from me will do much good. Occasionally I will admit
    to finding some terms funny in context -- Bruce Willis reeling
    off a line "Spending a nice quiet evening at home with the
    old ball-n-chain" on "Moonlighting" for example -- but in
    general I am rarely amused by sexist/racist humor. Undoubtedly
    as my children grow older & I become "the old man" I will
    have another opinion.
    
                                                              
    

In a strong Liverpudlian accent....    "Birds"



;-)

Jerry

    ....and then there's the old favourite, "bit of stuff" and "bit
    of fluff" the former being in admiration, tha latter, denigration.

	Tart, brass, trout, flusey, bird, wife, dame, crumpet, dog, missus
	broad, cow, little woman, her indoors, maam, butterfly, whore, hooker
	sir, lady, woman, female, and there are others.......

Richard.

And that's not mentioning borrowed ones like 'bint'...
...and one that really irritates me, 'skirt'...

...and finally one that always makes my old mum chuckle (as it means 'mother')

'the old dear'!!

Tarik.

< Note 65.7 by RDGE43::KEW "Can you imanige??" >


�   In a strong Liverpudlian accent....    "Birds"
    
    The correct scouse word for a [young] woman is 'judy', ...  (used in 
    such phrases as "I'd like to get that judy up a jigger..." ;-)
    
    When   I  was  growing  up  my  Grandfather  always  refered  to  my 
    Grandmother as 'wench' (he never used her name). The term used to be 
    very  common  in  Northern  Britain, and is still heard in places. I 
    occasionally forget and refer to a woman as 'hinny' (a geordie word) 
    or 'lass'
    
    
    /. Ian .\
    
    PS  "geordie"  is  not  really colloquial English.  it is a discreet 
    language derived from old  English  and  Norse  with  strong  gaelic 
    influences, spoken in Northumbria (North East England)

> �   In a strong Liverpudlian accent....    "Birds"

That was meant to be a jab at the 60's and the mersey influences   :-)



>    When   I  was  growing  up  my  Grandfather  always  refered  to  my 
>    Grandmother as 'wench' (he never used her name). The term used to be 
>    very  common  in  Northern  Britain, and is still heard in places. I 
>    occasionally forget and refer to a woman as 'hinny' (a geordie word) 
>    or 'lass'

Reminds me , the Aberdonians refer to Jocks and Quinies  (pronounced 
QWINEY) for men and women. It seems fairly close to hinny, although it is 
said to come from queen from Victoria's time when Balmoral was built.


Jerry

I don't mind:

Mom, mother, mummy, mum, sweetie, angel, luv, love, honey, girl friend, wife, 
missus, lady, daughter, grand-daughter, niece, cousin, sister, friend, best 
friend, and any number of acceptable terms..  a very good friend of mine in
the office calls me chick and sweetie.. he is an older man and very fatherly
toward me so he gets away with it...  but he is the *only* person in the 
office I can think of that could!

I *do* mind:

Broad, skirt, hey lady, ma, old lady, young lady (when used in a patronizing
way), and most slang expressions used in my direction... if I don't like what
I am called I always say so..

course there are a *few* exceptions to the people allowed to call me just about
anything and get away with it..  
  

    I once worked for a manager who used to refer to secretaries as
    "SWEETUM's".  I thought that was so derogatory.  He was also a class
    "A" jerk.  He often refered to women as "BROAD'S" but not to my face.
    The sad thing is he often talked to his direct reports (women) with
    such flattery and as soon as they were out of his office, they were
    "Stupid, worthless broads".   
    
    One time he did say to me (In front of 5 other men) "Hey Woman,
    get me a pad of paper".  Well, I replied "Don't you WOMAN me". 
    Of course, I ended up in the dog house because of that statement
    but I refused to let this person belittle me like that.  It was
    a long 6 months before I was able to get out of that job, to say
    the least.
    
    It is a shame that there are people who just haven't accepted the fact
    that women are more than just a piece of flesh and we do have
    functional brains. (OK Guys, I am not accusing all men, just some of
    them.)  I'm sure his wife would have told him where to shove it had he
    talked to her like that.  I hope someday he runs into a woman that will
    punch his lights out for some of the rotten things he can say. 

    On the other hand I have meet many wonderful, thoughful men who
    would never think of refering to women in a derogatory way.  Those
    men are very confident, sincere, caring people who don't have to
    "PROVE" they are manlihood by trying to make themselves look good at
    another person's expense.
    

    
    Call me anything you want, but don't call me later for dinner.
    
    Or Ma'am!  
    
    Jeanne
    

    Well, I thought I was in the minority, but I guess I'm not.  Women
    don't like to be called 'broad' or 'old lady'.  I haven't seen any
    replies from men or women who think its OK.  Yet, men whom I know
    use it freely.  Interesting.
    
    re .11
>        Jim, this is _MY_ _WIFE_, Carol ...  vs. ... Jim, this is Carol.
>    or _MY_ _GIRL-FRIEND_ Sue  vs. Sue or Susan. 
    
    My wife's name is Kris.  If I introduce her as "This is Kris", the
    recipient won't know if she's my wife, sister, daughter (she looks
    a lot younger than I do), or just a friend.  So I introduce her
    as "This is my wife, Kris" and there's no doubt about our relationship.
    I have gotten "YOUR WIFE, my god, I thought she was your daughter."
    I once had a female friend who introduced me to another guy.  At
    the end of the evening, we both realized that we each thought that
    the other was her brother.  No problem, just comical.
    
    Spence

    
    I will occasionally refer to close female friends by a number of
    colloquialisms such as "kiddo" and "babe", but only because I know
    they don't mind it coming from me.  If they had objected, I would
    have stopped.
    
    For women I don't know, I usually use "Ma'am," as I've found that's
    the safest one to use.  Long years in a mill town never cultivated
    the use of "Madam" although I suppose that's more correct.
                                                 
    Otheriwse, I use the name, with an applicable honorifics.
    
    DFW

< Note 65.16 by PSYCHE::DECAROLIS >
    
�    Or Ma'am!  
 
    What's  wrong with "ma'am"? Incidentally it is the correct, protocol 
    required, form of address when speaking to the Queen of England.  It 
    always  seemed  that if it were good enough for the  Queen it should 
    be good enough for ANYBODY.                          
             
    Or is this another word with some  qierd  unstated  cultural  stigma 
    attached to it?
    
    /. Ian .\

            
>    Or is this another word with some  qierd  unstated  cultural  stigma 
>    attached to it?


Yes - a Ma'am or Madam is the name commonly given to a woman that run an 
establishment of ill-repute.  Foiled by the language again!  ;-)

Angeline

    Since I wear a uniorm 40 hours a week, I'm quite used to be called
    ma'am...seems quite acceptable to me, but then I'm a military brat.
    
    The one name I can't stand is the most popular one with American
    truck drivers. It reers to a small mammal that has a flat fatty
    tail and builds dams.
    
    I'm too old to be a "chick", can't stand the words broad or BAW,
    my husband refers to me as Babe, and occassionally in private,"old
    lady",<<but he does it with affection so it isn't a bone of
    contention>>.
                                  -sunny-                          

    
    
    
    
    
                             young female = girl
    
    
    
    
                            mature female = woman
    
    
    
    
    

>                             young female = girl
    
 	How young?...the "girls" in our department range from late 20's
	to, well tact doesn't permit me to say, but not young!

Richard.

    re .25
    Do they call themselves girls or do you and others call them girls?
    

    The girls call themselves, the girls, other groups of friendly women,
    girls.....ie "the girls are going for a drink", probibly something
    to do with the way they act when together, like girls I supose!
    
    Richard.
    

	Having gotten an enormous amount of abuse for this I'd
	suggest woman or lady. Girl isn't advised, goddess is
	a personal favorite but the occasion to use it is becoming
	less frequent. 

	John    

    re: .24
    
    Actually, no he doesn't. If he uses a proper name at all, he uses
    my Christian name. The rest of the world uses my nick-name.
    
                                          -sunny-

Re .21:

�   Yes  -  a  Ma'am or Madam is the name commonly given to a woman that 
�   run an establishment of ill-repute.  
 
    So a schoolma'am runs ... a School for Scandal?    :-)

Re .28
    
�   Having gotten an enormous amount of abuse for this I'd suggest woman 
�   or lady.  Girl isn't advised ...
 
    This  has  been done to death in womannotes.  Suffice it to say that 
    several of the noters here (RKE, Kew,  Sadat,  and  Leslie)  are  on 
    nodes  in  Britain,  and  that I am an ex-pat (I can't speak for the 
    nationalities of other noters...).  The  fact  is  that  the British 
    collectively  are  more  relaxed about accepting words with multiple 
    meanings and placing them by context.  Also even without that caveat 
    it is I believe true to say that "girl" has far less negative aspect 
    in English, than it has in American (a discrete language as  we  all 
    know :-)
    
    /. Ian .\
    

{RE .20} - I personally don't care that something's "good enough for the queen."
 <_Jym_>

    In California there are *no* adjectives acceptable to women.
    Men aren't supposed to talk to females in Calif. I think
    it was outlawed during the Brown Administration.
    If it becomes necessary to address a female (fire, accident,
    question on X server, etc.) we have to use notes and deaddrops.

    
       Hey you, Hey, Yo....
    
    
               JUST KIDDING!!!!!!!!
    
    
       prc

    .32, what are 'deaddrops'?
    

>    .32, what are 'deaddrops'?



What spies use to 'drop' information to each other without meeting, or 
discovering each others identity.


Jerry    

    re: .32
    
       Well, if that's the case, I"m staying out here!  8)
    
    					Phil
    

    I find "lady" usually suffices. Most females take it as
    a compliment. A few take it as an insult. Some even take
    it as irony, though unintended. I prefer to use first names
    but lousy memory often makes that impractical. (there was
    a time when it seemed like every female I knew was named
    Diane - pure bliss ! :-)  )   Young lady sounds a bit stilted
    when used on anyone past menarche. 

	Lady, in Britain could be used in two contexts, the first would
	be a titled female, Lady Jane Grey, for instance so if used whilst
	addressing her you would call her Lady Jane, but not Lady.
	The other context is as a dogs name, it is very popular since
	Walt Disney's "101 Dalmations" To call dogs (or rather bitches), 
	by the name Lady. Now it is true that some Dogs are called lady,
	but it would be quite out of order to call a Lady a dog, However
	some "Ladies", of a certain persuation, are almost exclusively dogs.
	
Richard.

    RE: .38  "Lady Jane"
    
    Would Lady Jane Grey have been addressed as Lady Jane, or Lady Grey?
    Isn't a Lord addressed and referred to by his last name, as in Lord
    Grey?
    
    
    

    re .37
    In Britain then, would it be an insult to refer to a woman on the
    street as a 'lady'?  Not to be confused with a 'lady of the street'
    or a 'street lady'.
    
    In America, it refers to "a woman of refinement and gentle manners".
    Also, "WOMAN, FEMALE - often used in a courteous reference".
    	re Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary
    
    Sorry, I don't speak English very well, only American.  ;-)
    
    Spence

>    Would Lady Jane Grey have been addressed as Lady Jane, or Lady Grey?
     
>	be a titled female, Lady Jane Grey, for instance so if used whilst
>	addressing her you would call her Lady Jane, but not Lady.
				 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^	

	OK?

Richard.

    In Britain one may refer to a lady in the third person, usually when
    not present, as a form of politeness or compliment.
    
    To use it in direct address, except when followed by her christian name,
    and when required by protocol, is an insult.
    
    So I would address Lady Jane Grey as: " ... , Lady Jane, ..."
    
    I might speak of a female of my acquaintance thusly: "... is a fine
    lady,..."
    
    but if I am speaking to a female and say " ..., Lady, ..." I may well
    get my face slapped.
    
    /. Ian .\
    
    (PS the use of "girl" is similarly differentiated between first person
    and third person usage - to use it in the third person is mildly
    complimentary, but to use it in direct address is insulting)


    (PPS, re: Lady Jane v. Lady Grey: the title usually refers to the wife
    of a baronet (though not always - it can also be the title of the daughter
    of a higher member of the aristocracy) such as (say) Sir John Grey,
    who would be refered to in conversation as "Sir John", or in the third
    person as "Lord Grey" ... however going off into the detailed protocol
    of manners of address in first and third person for various levels of
    the British aristocracy is probably a rathole.)

    RE: .16 .21
    
>   Yes - a Ma'am or Madam is the name commonly given to a woman that run an 
>   establishment of ill-repute.  Foiled by the language again!  ;-)
 
    What a load of, er,  rot!  (not that Madam is not used in that context).
    
    I was taught that the RESPECTFUL way to address a woman (especially
    when one doesn't know her marital status) was "ma'am" (i.e. "Yes,
    ma'am").  I have yet to have ANYONE [female that is :-)] I have
    addressed as "ma'am" take offense and or construe that I was insinuating
    that she ran an establishment of ill-repute or was a less than virtuous
    woman. 
    
    Anything said in the wrong tone can be offensive, but could you (.16
    -sorry, I don't remember who you are) explain to me what is wrong with
    being address as "ma'am"?  What would you consider to be an acceptable
    alternative?  (Please don't take this as an attack, I'd just like to
    know your point of view.) 
    
    -Bob

    Being called "ma'am" makes me feel like an old crone; not easy to do to
    a 24-year old.  Call an old woman "miss" sometime and you'll see the
    inverse is also true.  Irrational and probably not very liberated,
    but there it is.
    
    Lee 

    My dictionary has nothing but good things to say about 'madam'.
    It doesn't mention the attachment to the brothel.  Just throwing
    some fuel on the fire.
    
    In the American Air Force, it is required to call a female commissioned
    officer "Ma'am", not "Madam".  As in, "Yes, Ma'am, I am scum, Ma'am".
    This is similar to "Yes, Sir, I eat worms, Sir".
    
    Never, NEVER call a female officer "Sir".  
    
    Sepcne  (that's Spence in Skiddish)

    	In the US Army, if you call a female officer "Sir" you will
    probably find yourself "Pushing away Georgia" (ie. doing punishment
    pushups) very quickly.  It is also customary to refer to the wives
    of male officers as Ma'am.  I believe that it is in the regulations
    to refer to these groups by these titles and that is what they are,
    just titles, nothing more.  Enlisted women are refered to officially
    by rank.  (The term Wacs was as bad as broad when I was in.)
    	The use of certain words when refering to a group of people
    can be a touch and go affair.  Obviously some words are to be avoided,
    others may take on completely different conotations (sp?).  For
    instance some women object to Ma'am.  Others get upset when not
    referred to as Ma'am.  I personnaly think that in both cases the
    "Ma'am" should at least attempt to realize where the person who
    used the word is coming from.  There is nothing to be gained by jumping
    down a persons throat when that person meant no harm.  A request
    that the word be avoided should be sufficient.  If it's use continues
    then one has reason to get mad.  It just seems that it's very difficult
    to go through life today as a male, constantly having to adjust
    your vocabulary so your not p**sing people off all the time, especially
    when you are not even trying to p**s them off at all.  I guess the
    best thing is to invite them all to a party throw a couple of well
    chosen words like Ma'am and lady and whatever else out and let them
    fight it out amongst themselves.  Whoever walks out alive, well
    then they can establish which terms are acceptable and which are
    not.  :-) :-).
    
    	As a final line I enter my favorite term I use affectionatly
    for my wife (but works equally well in reverse) which is "organic
    bed warmer".
    
    Rich
                                     

    As a woman, I don't really get offended when someone calls me Ma'am.
    I like Miss, I like Cathy, Cath, Cat but I don't like "hey you"
    I am 26 and one time in Bradlees, the checker said, "will that be
    all Ma'am" and I just laughed to myself.  I didn't jump down this
    15 year-old's throat because she didn't mean any harm and I didn't
    take it badly.   I really just laughed.
    
    Turning this around, Sunday, I didn't know what to call this guy
    who had left his drink on a dock box (that I needed to get into)
    and he was talking to another couple and so I said, "excuse me Sir,
    is this your drink"?  I didn't know what else to say but sometimes,
    when I think about it, I will say, "excuse me, I didn't get your
    name, ah, Jim, is this your drink?  I do this because one time I
    called a gentleman Sir and he said, "Don't call me Sir".
    
    Confusing, isn't it???

    re .47
    
    He could have been an 'ole sarge'. "Don't call me sir, I work for
    a living". Straight from basic trainin 8-). Army DI's don't like
    being called sir, that's reserved for officers. The longer that
    you are an NCO in the Army, the more you understand the "don't call
    me sir" line. Want some fun? Ask a sailor and a soldier whom they
    adress as MR.
    
    Bob Mc
    PS Being 20 and having a 15yr old call you ma'm or sir is the first
    sign of advancing age 8-) )-8.
    

    
    Hi!
    
    Down South, (at least in the Deep South - Louisiana) - Ma'am and
    Sir are even used when addressing your mother and father.  I think
    this only prevails in small towns, now.  Places like Atlanta, where
    I live now - are getting pretty "Yankeefied" (just teasing!), so
    you don't hear Sir, or Ma'am as much anymore.
    
    It is used a a term of respect for people.
    
    I use those terms alot, and get teased for it almost as much.
                                                                 
    Didn't learn it from my mom and dad - their both Yankees, but when
    everyone around you uses it, you pick it up - specially when you
    are young.
    
    Bye, Y'all!
    
    Corinne
    
                                          
                                          

    
    
    Howdy!
    
    Just adding emphasis to .49. I'm from Texas and there too "Sir"
    and "Ma'am" are/were respectful addresses.  I take no offense at
    anyone refering to me as "Ma'am" ..... It just makes me feel OLD!
    
    Bye Now!
    
    LaDonna

    Actual Address SIMVAX::WHITE,  just borrowing this account.
    
    This is one of the best notes confs I've seen.  The Brits have a
    way with words, esp. slang ("I bloody would", I'd like to get that
    Judy up a jigger--made me laugh out loud)
    
    Sir or Ma'am should offend no one--except in case of gender mismatch.
    
    The ex-military folks forgot my pet peeve:
    
      The official announcements by the U.S. Armed Forces always include
    refs. to "The Officers and their Ladies and the Enlisted Men and
    their Wives."  This is the subliminal form of Yo' Momma.  
    
                                              JW:

    
    RE: .51
    
    I hate to seem dumb, but living up here in Maine I don't hear
    "Yo Mamma" used every day...what does it mean ?

    Thanks,
    
    Gary
    

In Michigan [where I spent 10 days of living boring hell in Albion for an 
installation], it is the same as Mo-Fo, or an abbreviation of 
mother-f*****.

In New England, it's usually a joke.  [Well, in Nashua anyway]

    Thanks for the translation..we don't get much jive up here..ayuh!

    Is that like "Yo, Adrian?"
    
    Cathy

    
    Greetings,
    
      The term 'Broad', I think, comes from Broad St. in Philadelphia,
    Which used to be the popular red light district. So it is a derogatory
    term.   
    
                      Regards,
    
                      JDS