Conference quark::mennotes-v1

	Right again Suzanne. The problem is not with men or women trying to 
put the other sex down but with the stereotypes that we expect us all to
conform to and also with our rebellion to those same stereotypes. This
creates situations where it is impossible to do the right thing. This is a
stupid example but a true one. I was always brought up to "hold the door
for the lady" and often still will get out the car and walk round and open
the door, especially if I'm taking a girl out (these days my wife) but,
with one woman I worked with, I just habitually walked round and opened the
door for her the first time I gave her a lift. She blew her top and accused
me of being a MCP, putting women down etc. I was just doing what I had been
taught through my "formative years" was the polite thing to do. 

	We all have our stereotypes and treat others according to how they 
fit in with our views on how they should be. Different people have 
different views. For some there is something not quite right about a woman 
who is too dedicated to her career - "Someday your want to settle down and 
have a family". For others the very concept of a woman wanting to stay at 
home, run the house and raise a family is totally abhorant - "Oh you poor 
brainwashed thing, you". Both the above are real quotes and make me squirm.

This is not a question of tolerence but of fully accepting others goals in 
life.

Peter.

    Hello,
    
    I have a few comments about all this :
    
    o I agree that it if a man and a woman have equal competence,
    experience etc.., they should have the same pay. All women's lib
    demands along the same line are ok, so long as they don't go too
    far and start working AGAINST men rather than FOR women. What I
    have in mind is : At one stage, if a man and a woman with equal
    qualifications applied for a job, the employer was virtually forced
    to employ the woman, even if he had a personal subjective preference
    for the man, because if he chose the man, he was certain of being
    sued on the grounds of "sexual discrimination". I believe this sort
    of reaction happens with all sorts of laws aiming to avoid any form
    of discrimination.
    
    o I agree with Suzanne as far as "stereotypes" being pushed down
    our throats is concerned. My father, who was brought up as "Man
    of the house" still blows his top when he has dinner at our house,
    because I get up to clear the table / prepare the dinner. 
    
    o Re .2 : I think a woman who blows her top because a man opens
    her cardoor for her is... well, "stupid" is the polite word that comes
    to my mind. Men and women have a right to equality, ok, but that
    will never stop them being different. Looking at both MEN and WOMEN
    notes, in particular things like "wishlist", it seems to me that
    most women enjoy a man being "Gallant" with them. Opening the door
    for my wife is *not* putting her down; to me, it feels a though
    I am putting her on a pedestal!
                                                           
    				Philippe.

    
    RE: .1-.4 Thank you all for your comments and I personally agree
    with most of them.
    
    In particular, thanks for the thought and effort you put into your
    reply, Suzanne.  Somehow I think I got a little misunderstood or
    didn't word myself as well as I might have.  I agree with you that
    SEXISM is the enemy of both men and women.  The purpose of this
    NOTE is to bring to the surface the fact that men are discriminated
    against also, and in what ways.  The examples I gave are a couple
    of the more obvious ones that came to mind at the time.  I will
    restate that I definitely support the women's movement for equality
    of the sexes - what I am taking issue with is the fact that there
    is also discrimination against and negativwe stereotyping of males
    as well as females.  You are fortunate in that you have realized
    this via your son.  This NOTE is intended to help bring to the
    surface and discuss (for the benefit of females and males) the ways
    men are "put down" - and to point out to some of the more militant
    feminists (of which most of you I know are NOT) who don't bother
    to look at both sides of the coin that abolishing SEXISM is a
    preferable goal.
    
    					Joe

I think the sexism which gripes me the most is in the case of auto insurance.
It really burns me to think that there are females the same age as I who are
paying hundreds of dollars less simply because they're female!  Aarrgghh!!

I blame the state of NH for this one; Mass was not nearly so bad.  But I find
it interesting that I have been in 4 accidents ( none of which were deemed my
fault ), and 3 of those were caused by females!  Don't get me wrong, I know one
case is not statistically significant, but at least it points out that it's
probably true that females are just as likely to cause accidents as males,
right?  So why the preference??!!


Thanks for the chance to get this off my chest!


Brian

Re .0, .1: 

	I agree, but find myself reacting to and applying the traditional
stereotype anyway.  There is often value in tradition but it is more valuable
to understand why a tradition exists and act in accordance to the reasons
behind the tradition than its particular embodiment.  The stereotype family
with the man as the bread winner and the woman as the homemaker had a number
of good reasons for its existence.  Quite a few of those reasons no longer
apply to the majority of the people reading this file and other family
organizations and social relations must be allowed as a result. 

Re .2: 

	If she didn't want you to open the door for her, why wasn't she at
least part way out of the car by the time you got around to opening the door?
She was more than stupid.  She was consciously and deceitfully vicious! 

Re .6: 

	Unfortunately, the insurance companies have a point even if they do
not know reasons for what they do.  They only do what the statistics tell
them.  They have found a strong correlation between sex and accident rates
and they use it to make a profit.  The question is why is there a
correlation? 

	You almost answer the question when you observe that 3 out of 4
encounters you had on the road were with women.  Women drive more than men
do!  They may not drive as far but they drive more hours on the average than
any but a professional driver does. 

	An average male driver will go to work in the morning, maybe drive a
short distance to lunch and then go home.  He will take the same route every
day, at the same time of day.  He does not get much experience driving.  On
the other hand, an average housewife with a car will be driving from place to
place at low speed at almost any time of day, 'doing errands'.  She will get
a lot of practice driving under a wide variety of conditions.  She will be
more skilled and thus a better driver.  This shows up in the accident
statistics. 

	If you are married, and have kids, it is a good bet that your wife
spends more money on gasoline than you do.  I find it cheaper to let my wife
drive the new, high MPG car and drive the old gas guzzler to work. 

RE:< Note 53.4>-< equal parenting rights >-

>I think one area of discrimination against men that is improving
>is their right of parenting.      
    
 
    Marge,
    
    	If I were to make an entry in WOMANNOTES suggesting that women
    should be pleased that discriminatory pay practices were not as
    bad as they used to be, I would expect to be able to heat my house
    with the resulting flames.  You didn't say men should be pleased
    that with the reduction in discrimination, but that was the feeling
    your response elicited in me.
    
	A secondary question about sexual discrimination in parenting
    - Are the needs of the children for an optimal home either superior
    or subordinate to the rights of the parents to sexual equality?
    More generally, is my right to a non-discriminatory environment
    more or less important than other issues, like the needs for protection
    of the weak, or the right to equal access to education without regard
    to economic situation, or the protection of other life forms on
    the planet, or the prevention of WWIII?
    
    Bob

    re .7(re .6)
    
    Max, I think your falling into another stereotype regarding driving
    habits. Back 10 years or so, young women usually didn't purchase
    new cars as soon as they were eligible for their drivers license.
    They usually drove the family car until they got married and then
    there usually wasn't a second car in the new family and the husband
    drove that to work. Most women drove relatively little and had a
    lower accident rate as a result. Today, the picture is quite different
    and I fully expect the insurance rates to change accordingly. My
    opinion is that Mass is already experiencing this due to the population
    concentration and the number of young women that are getting jobs
    in industry, but NH is lagging behind because the inverse is still
    true for the largest part of the state.
    
    In my previous marriage, we had two cars for the entire 18 years.
    My car was used primarily to get me to work and hers for errands
    and weekend/vacation trips. My car averaged 16K mi/yr and hers
    6K a year. Almost all my driving was highway and almost all hers
    were short trips around town. Her parents situation was a little
    different, in that he worked closer to home than I, but any trips
    were driven by him. As a result of this, any long trips that were
    made jointly, were driven by my father-inlaw and myself.
    
    Last year, I drove 40K miles to and from work, my wife 20K miles.
    She had four accidents, three on the highway and one in a parking
    lot, and was costing me $200 dollars in points for this coming year.
    I skidded on the highway in the last big storm and broke a headlight
    on the guard rail. What does that do to the statistics. True, I
    tempted fate and made out but, in 23 years of driving, I have hit
    another vehicle twice, damaged my own six times and been hit twice.
    This in an estimated 460K miles. My wife, estimated 40K miles in
    four years and three involved striking another vehicle.
    
    The US lifestyle is changing and the insurance statistics are showing
    the trends. They just haven't had the proper number of years to
    reflect those trends in the rates and even then they are tailored
    to the geographical realities.
    
    Bob Mc
    

Re .10:

	You may be right, but you missed at least one point I was trying to 
make.  Women may not drive as FAR, but may actually spend more TIME driving 
because the type of driving they do is different.  You are right about the 
insurance companies.  They follow the accident rates very carefully and will
request rate changes as the driving pattern changes. 

re: .12

Okay, I'll take on some hisses and boos--I think your explanation
is creative, Max, but baloney nonetheless.  I'd be willing to bet
that the insurance statistics are the result of male drivers (in
particular, young male drivers) being both more bad-tempered and
more daring (AKA reckless) than their female counterparts.
	I know that sounds like a sexist stereotype, but it does
seem to correspond to reality as far as I can see.  Give me a
situation where a car off to the side could maybe just barely pull
out into the flow of traffic "safely" and I have observed that: if
the driver pulls out, 9 of 10 it's a male; if the driver stays put,
9 out of 10 it's a female.  I don't know how much of it is cultural
conditioning and how much of it has some biological root in spatial
perception differences, but men seem to drive crazier and take more
unnecessary chances.

						paul c.

Re .13:

	(This is fun.  (~/~) )

	It could also be that the young man doesn't know any better and the 
woman has had more practice and does know better.

	Seriously, there are likely to be multiple factors.  Personality, 
social expectation and experience are all likely to be significant.  The only 
thing I find annoying is that so many men seem to think that women are 
inexperienced.  They are not.  They get about as much practice as any other 
average driver when you realize that it is the time spent driving, not the 
distance driven that is important.

    Hello, Happy New year,
    
    Well, this note on equality has turned into a traffic Jam! I tend
    to agree with Suzanne as far as men being more agressive at the
    wheel...
    
    I once read that there are two things men will not admit being bad
    at :
    
   
    
    1. Driving
    
    2. Making Love.
    
    I talked about this to a friend who's psychologist, she did say
    that a lot of men relate driving to their "virility".

			Regards,    
    
    			Philippe.
    

{RE .0} - I've not been victimized by sexism in any way that could be considered
 a loss of control of my life, so my gripes are limited to the sexism rampant in
  feminist theory.  I think this is a major hindrance to building an egalitarian
   society.

{RE .16} - I would recommend that you avoid driving in Eastern Massachusetts and
 Southern New Hampshire.  I wish I could avoid it!
  <_Jym_>

    Men have a larger 'proprietary area' around them than women.
    This is a biological fact. This area is claimed in queues,
    traffic, on the sidewalk, etc. Its origins are rooted in the
    territorial behavior of the other higher mammals. This is a
    partial reason for the aggressiveness of some male drivers.
    Self control is used to counter this reaction.
    Unfortunately, in the SF Bay area the cause for much of the 
    contentiousness of drivers is competition for pavement and
    desperation to get to ___ (place) by ___ (time). Sure we'd 
    all be as polite as they are in Iowa or the Isle of Man if
    we had their traffic density. I put 50k miles on my truck last
    year (kind that is good for darting about and being opportunistic
    in) just getting to ordinary places. I don't have time to suffer
    twits who diddle about in MY way. The fast lane is for the aggressive
    drivers. If you can't handle it don't be there. On the other hand
    I don't deliberately get into peoples way when I'm not in a hurry
    and they are (like I've noticed a lot of F drivers doing - just
    to be bitches...more than likely). 

    No. I am not generalizing. I suspect you think I am.
    This tends to happen from time to time, however. In
    Calif,slower traffic keeps to the right. Of course I
    am aware that it takes time to react, and that one
    would not want to back into a truck, etc. etc. 
    Courtesy is a two way street. I should not have to 
    beg others not to blunder into the fast lane, nor should
    anyone (M or F) have to put up with twisted minds who like
    to cut 'em off because they don't like their looks or because
    they experience excitement when creating danger. 
    Finally, owning the road is a function of skill, not agression,
    and the best drivers aren't necessarily the slowest. The best 
    ones are those who create the least dislocation to their fellows
    while getting to their destination.

    Susan,
    
    Have you been playing in the road again??  B^)
    
      Mikie?

This has turned into SOAPBOX on driving! I can't resist! My experience has
been that the majority of women drive much slower on any given road than
the majority of men. This gives the appearence of inexperience and slow
reactions to other faster drivers. I am very tolerant of the difference in
styles because my own particular style of driving is very different from
the norm, I have had my accelerator pedal replaced with an on/off switch
and my headlights and horn are connected to a proxomity detector at the
front to warn cars ahead. If I come across a slower car blocking a lane
I move in real close so as to save fuel by slip streaming. When waiting to
pull out onto a main road I always wait for a tight gap so as to practice
my skill and tune my timing. I have had at least 25 accidents (including
parking incidents), 23 were not my fault and most of these involved women
drivers but not because they were women but because of our 'driving style'
differences.

	:-) Now can we get back on the subject?

		Dave (ex-Taxi Driver) 

{RE .19} - Biological fact?  I doubt this in the extreme.  References?
 <_Jym_>

    Driving is a major arena of m-f interactions. Much power play
    can be observed.
    
    re .24
    Was that true about the pedal?

    
    	"Driving is a major arena of m-f interactions."
    
    	Oh poop!  How come I've never seen the topic of driving come
    up in a discussion of racial equality?
    
    	You have shifted the subject to an area with which you are
    comfortable; men *love* to talk about women drivers. You might
    as well discuss our differing attitudes towards the Superbowl.
    
    	Jym (.18) - What is this 'sexism in Feminist theory' stuff?
    Nothing I've read seems to support that.  Unless you're talking
    about ultra-radical 'death to men' fringe groups, I don't understand
    what you're talking about.
    
    							- Karl