Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    A few years back when I turned 18 I refused to register for the
    draft....Then it came time for me to pay for college...Financial
    Aid now requires men 18 or over who want to recieve financial aid
    to sign a form stating you have signed up. If you don't register
    you don't recieve anything! So eithier you or he shells out every
    dollar or he signs up.8*}
    
    Tom
    

    
    That doesn't seem fair since it "catches" only those who need aid.
     Wealthy people who could afford college without aid can still avoid
    the draft in this way.  It reminds of reading in history books about
    past wars, such as the Civil War, where rich people could buy their
    way out of having to go in the service.  I guess money still can
    buy just about anything.
    
    Lorna
    

    If the reason for considering not registering is a question of
    conscience, a better statement would be to register, but as a
    conscientious objector. That's legal, while still expressing the
    feelings with regard to killing/war/etc. (I'm assuming that CO
    status is still available.)
    
    If the reason, on the other hand, is that he'd prefer not to be
    bothered, you might ask him what other laws he'd rather not be
    bothered by.

    As a certified Massacusaattts flaming liberal.... I say, register
    it is extreamly painless, Matter of fact I was on my way to a real
    kick A** 'road trip' when I did (about 6� years ago now). I know,
    the situations in the world are different, but it is the law.. and
    better be on the 'right' side to start to bitch... 
    
    dd;

Another trick is to register, and register, and register, in several
different names, and several different post offices.  If enough
people do this and the compliance rate goes _above_ 100%, they might
catch the hint!

I'm not advising this (heh heh), just pointing out what somebody
once said on the radio or someplace.

	I don't know if this is a possibility in the U.S. but when my 
grandfather was called up in 1914 he volunteered for the medical corp. He 
was and is still very much a C.O. but felt that he could help people 
without having to compromise his principles. He lost his leg whilst trying 
carrying a stretcher in France and should have died according to the 
doctors.

Peter

    A few words of advise from a fairly recent Registrant (3 years ago):
    
    Persuade your son to register (he will be 18, you can't "legally"
    make him, but you are a parent...).  This will make any dealings
    with the goverment in the future a lot easier (ie. federal grants,
    civil service jobs, etc...).
    
    If he is a C.O. (and it sounds like he is), have him get involved
    with a recognized CO group.  I do not know where they are, but I
    do know they exist.  One place to ask is your minister/rabbi/priest.
    If they do not know ask another one.  Another place to look is in
    the advisors office at school.  Most of these people were/are bleeding
    hearts and should be able to help.  
    
    The point of the above exercise is to establish your son as a known
    C.O. as early as possible so that when and if the draft comes you
    will have hard long term proof of your sons personal beliefs.
    This will be the best thing short of physical disability to keep
    your son off the firing line.
    
    Good luck,
    
    Clark.
   

For as long as there has been conscription in this country the Society of
Friends (Quakers) has been resisting in their own non-violent way. I doubt
they've changed their tradition in the 18 years since I needed draft
counseling. A good place to start if you want to pursue Conscientious
Objector status.

Don.

    When Carter started draft registration, he required all people born
    after January 1, 1960 to register.  Lucky me, I was born on January
    13, 1960.  What I know about draft registration was true in 1980,
    so bear in mind that some of the draft laws may have changed since
    then.
    
    First, there was no such thing as registering as a C.O.  I did write
    on my registration form that I was registering as a conscientious
    objector, but that was actually just a moral statement, and had no
    legal significance.  There was no place on the form for this; I
    had to write it in the margin.  You should make a photocopy of the
    form before you turn it in.  In the event you are drafted, you can
    then include this with any other materials to make your case for
    C.O. status.  You only become a C.O after you are drafted, not when
    you register, and it is up to the selective service board to make
    that decision.
    
    If one did not register, he theoretically could get sent to prison for
    up to 5 years and fined up to $10,000.  I say theoretically, because in
    practice the Reagan administration has engaged in selective prosecution
    against only those who have been vocal about their refusal to register.
    If your son keeps quiet about it, his odds of being prosecuted may not
    be as high.  However, recent court cases have backed the Reagan
    administration's use of selective prosecution, and as a result the
    Justice department may be stepping up its prosecution efforts. Your son
    should be aware that the possible consequences of not registering could
    be very serious (although it is unlikely that he would get the
    maximum penalty, were he convicted).
    
    When Carter started draft registration, his administration flagrantly
    inflated the compliance figures.  Non-compliance was at about 25%,
    but they claimed it was less than 10%.  It is possible that more
    men register now.  I have not been in touch with this issue for
    some time.
    
    I might add that those who urge others not to register for the draft
    can be prosecuted, and the penalties are the same as for those who do
    not register.  When it comes to "national security", it seems that the
    first amendment is always the first to go. 
    
    My feeling at the time was that the potential price of not registering
    was simply not worth it.  I made my moral statement of opposition
    to the draft when I wrote in the margin that I was a conscientious
    objector.  If I was eventually drafted, I could fight it in a number
    of legal ways.  Of course, your son has to work this out with his
    own conscience.
    
    Good luck,
    Mike

    The thing to do seems to register.  No sweat.  If a person gets drafted
    there is a very _simple_ action that requires internal strength but
    will get you sent back home on the bus.
    
    Being a vet and a C.O. I can tell you from experience that what puts
    you in the service is the _raising_of_the_hand_and_swearing_that_you_
    _will_do_"X"_things.  So don't sweat the small stuff, just don't raise
    your hand and don't swear, period. 
    
    This is *amazingly* simple thing to do and no amount of govermental
    power can force you to swear (although the military personel can sure
    intimidate you into such an action by telling you lies about how
    their going to give you a B.C.D. and sic the lawyers on you).
    
      Mikie?
    
    

    If your son does get drafted he can get out easily if he works in
    the computer field. A friend of ours (when we were stationed at
    SAC headquarters) said he would work on any system the Air Force
    wanted except anything to do with nuclear war. He was out of the
    service in less than a month with an honorable discharge. He did
    not even ask to get out! Liesl

I don't have any facts, but I imagine that it'd be harder to get out if one 
is drafted.  I'm a vet, and when I was in it would've been relatively easy to
get out just by telling the appropriate people that I was extremely unhappy.
But, I'd volunteered to go in, and I guess the Air Force wasn't having much 
trouble filling its quotas.  From what I've seen, the Air Force doesn't 
usually have problems filling its quotas, especially when there's a draft -- 
many of my fellow "airmen" joined the Air Force to escape being drafted into
the Army or Marines, during the Vietnam era.  I think if they draft you, they 
want you, and they're not going to give you up with a fight.

CQ

re: .1 (Tom Hennessey)
>    A few years back when I turned 18 I refused to register for the
>    draft....Then it came time for me to pay for college...Financial
>    Aid now requires men 18 or over who want to recieve financial aid
>    to sign a form stating you have signed up. 

wasn't this challenged in court a couple of years ago?  If so, does anyone
remember the result?  I thought it was struck down.

					-- hal

    I am disturbed by the trend of virtually all the responses so far to
    this topic's base note.  Maybe I'm reading too much into some of the
    responses, but it seems like nearly all are at least sympathetic to not
    registering with the draft in order to make a moral 'statement'. 
    
    What's the 'statement' being made?  It's wrong to protect ourselves
    as a nation?  Wrong to ask a certain segment of the population to
    do it?
    
    Everyone would agree that "war" is not inherently "good".  People die,
    get maimed, etc.  National resources are squandered.  OK, absolutely
    true.  But to me, the alternative (domination by a foreign power) isn't
    real tasty either.  This argues that a certain level of preparation is
    justified, depending upon the perceived external threat. If there's a
    high threat, then we should mobilize.  If there's absolutely no threat,
    then maybe we should completely eliminate our armed forces.  (I'm not
    being sarcastic --- that is the range of possibilities, depending upon
    the current situation.) 
    
    Is it perhaps that there is a moral objection to being prepared for
    war?  There are different levels of preparation  (standing armies ready
    to move, people in training, people on 7-day notice, etc.). If you
    agree that there are SOME conditions which justify war, wouldn't you
    agree that having names registered on a few magtapes somewhere is about
    the lowest level of preparation we can have, short of having none at
    all? 


        jdr

    	The only "problem" with your idea is, that in all likelyhood
    the next war will only allow the military about 20 minutes to pull
    names.
    
    	Larry
    

    The next time there's a war, let the first to be drafted be the
    President, members of congress, and anyone else who started it.
    					Steve

< Note 37.16 by QUARK::LIONEL "Reality is frequently inaccurate" >


�   The  next  time  there's  a  war, let the first to be drafted be the 
�   President, members of congress, and anyone else who started it.
 
    Unfortunately most of these people are above the maximum age for the 
    draft! 
    
    Let  me add my comments: I personally (note I said personally) am in 
    favor of conscriptive service.  I feel however that it should follow 
    the  model  of  �universal�  conscription.  The concept of holding a 
    lottery is insane, and probably unfair.  I also  suspect  that there 
    should  be  no  sexual  discrimination  in this matter.  The current 
    American thinking I know is that  women  in  the  services  must  be 
    withdrawn  from  combat  (which presents a major problem for capital 
    ships that often have a substantial  female  representation  in  the 
    crew  in  peace  time  -- in the event of the "4 minute warning" are 
    these to be thrown overboard to get them  out  of  combat?)  however 
    this  degree  of sexism is not universal (the Israeli Defence Forces 
    for example conscript women as well as men, and the women  serve  in 
    combat units as well)
    
    However  the  question  at  issue  here is not the draft: we are not 
    talking about whether the youngster in question should go if  called 
    (and  all  systems  make some allowance for conscientious objection, 
    even if like the Russian system that  allowance  is  that  they  can 
    choose  jail  instead  of  the  army),  rather  we are talking about 
    whether he should �register� for the draft. This is not optional, it 
    is  legally  required:  there  is no provision for �not registering� 
    because of conscientious objection.  The only legal  way  he  can do 
    that is to formally renounce his US citizenship!
    
    /. Ian .\

    
    Surely this debate belongs in 2B::SOAPBOX?
    
    Press KP7/Select etc etc

    re: .15 and .16:
    
    I'm really looking for a serious answer.  Both of your assertions (the
    next war will be 20 minutes long, send the congressmen first) are nice
    for parties and the lunchtable.  How about giving me a glimpse of the
    logic that says that it is OK to not register for the draft when
    you are supposed to?

    This debate is closed in this file.
    
    Please go to SOAPBOX, as I asked in .18

    

From:	STUBBI::B_REINKE     "There once was a road through these woods"  9-DEC-1986 03:16
To:	RDGENG::LESLIE,B_REINKE    
Subj:	mensnotes-draft registration note

I'm sorry you had to close down the draft registration note before
I had a chance to thank the people who contributed answers to my question.
However, given the direction the discussion was heading in, I understand
why you did so. I had no intention of getting into a debate on the validity
of what I feel is entirely my son's decision. I do feel that the information
that was given on the consequences of such a decision was helpful.
If you want to add this letter to the end of the discussion please feel
free to do so.
Bonnie

    I WOULD TELL YOUR SON THAT HE HAS AN OBLIGATION TO HIS COUNTRY AS
    WELL AS HIS FAMILY TO REGISTER FOR THE DRAFT.  I WAS AMONG THOSE
    WHO WERE REQUIRED TO REGISTER THE FIRST YEAR THE DRAFT WAS REINSTATED.
    THERE WERE ALOT OF MY PEERS WHO SAID THEY WEREN'T GOING TO REGISTER.
    I HATE, AND AM AFRAID OF GOING TO WAR AS MUCH AS ANYONE ELSE, HOWEVER
    I AM WILLING TO FACE THAT FEAR TO ASSURE A BETTER WAY OF LIFE FOR
    MY CHILDREN AND FOR GENERATIONS TO COME.  I FEEL THAT ALOT OF KIDS
    USE THIS "DON'T BELIEVE IN WAR" AS AN ESCUSE FOR BEING AFRAID AND
    THE SOONER THEY REALIZE THAT THE FEAR IS NATURAL THEY WILL BE BETTER
    OFF.
                                                        MIKE 

    There is a difference between not being willing to serve his country
    or being afraid of going to war, and having a deep seated moral
    conviction that war is wrong. I have raised my children to follow
    their consciences.
    
    Bonnie
    
    p.s. .22 are you aware that typing in all caps is considered shouting?

I'm with .22 - war, as disagreeable as it can be, has its place. Pacifism
is just as dangerous as warmongering. 

Fighting for your country *is* a duty - just as paying taxes.

TANSTAAFL - there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

    Serving your country *is* a duty...but the law allows for
    persons who do not wish to fight for reasons of conscience.
    
    Bonnie

    	I agree with .24 that pacifism can be dangerous, and I might be
    prepared to die for it.
    
    	Incidentally, how do you choose a country? There is no country in
    which I have a vote (though I pay taxes in two), and there are several
    countries that I like.
    
    		Dave