Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    I don't give a second thought to males with earrings. (Unless they
    are the clip on type me grand-mum used to wear.)
    
    If I could deal with needles, I'd have a pierced ear.
    
    Edd

    I like 'em!
    
    However it would take a bit to see "my" son with one.  But I would
    let him keep it.
    
    Angel

    
    
    Ear rings ?
    
    No problem there. Of course it depends on who you're with too!
    It's like long hair, tattoos, strange dress, who is s/he hurting
    no one.
    A very long time ago I made up my mind that I would never condemn
    anyone for the way they wanted to dress.
    But long hair, earrings, chains, leather, and tattoos was my norm
    for years.
     Now it's sneakers, 3 piece suits, and much shorter hair, but my
    beliefs are the same.
    
     You only go round once in life so go for it!
    
    Cal.
              
    

    re: .1
    
    You'd better be careful who you call effeminate these days!  I
    certainly would think twice about calling ANYBODY who's 6" 5"
    ANYTHING derogatory!  Besides, "effeminate" is the worst form
    of sexism, as though it was a face worse than death to be
    anything like a woman.  Keep your value judgments to yourself,
    please. (Excuse my tone; it may be an over-reaction; if you meant
    it facetiously, I apologize).
    
    I think the idea of fashion as a statement is the right one;
    to the parent of the 16 year old: don't be upset about the
    earring; it appears to be a very accepted form of jewelry, with
    very little negative connotation associated with it.  Let him
    wear it if he wants to; he'll feel "cool" and appreciate your
    understanding.  As I said, no one is going to give him
    grief about it!  He'll get tired of it, and you'll feel better
    about yourself by being a bit tolerant.  It's a pretty harmless
    statement, don't you think?
    
    Re: .2
    
    The ear lobe has practically no nerve endings, so don't be afraid
    of the pain.  If you want an earring, wear one!  "Real men
    have the guts to get their ear pierced."
 
    Richard
    

        It's certainly no worse than a woman making holes in *her*
        ears and hanging things in them (almost sounds grotesque
        when you put it that way, huh?  :-))
        
        As for .0... well, not to try to lay a guilt trip on you or
        anything, but... would you have reacted the same way if it was
        your *daughter* who'd come home with pierced ear[s]?  And if
        not, why should there be a difference? 
        
        Anyway, men may have been wearing pierced earrings longer than
        women have... the old merchant marine "ring in the ear for
        crossing the equator", pirates, etc., are grande old traditions
        (even stereotypes), although not really widely practised. 
        
        I don't have [an] earring[s], mind you, but I've considered
        it from time to time.  Might look nice...
        
        	/dave

    Really - what do you think earrings are "saying" that a male must
    absolutely not say?  "Calling all men" or something?
    
    George Michael of Wham! has an earring in each ear and he looks
    quite fine to me.
    
    Could it be you think "people" will assume your son is homosexual and
    that assumption would kill you?
    
    I doubt the "people" in your son's world look to jewelry to determine
    someone's sexual orientation.  Most people couldn't care less and
    the ones who are interested won't rely on jewelry to tell them what
    they want to know! 
    
    Your son will probably wear the earring when he's away from you
    anyway.  The demons in this are your own because an earring on
    a male may be a symbol of something in your world but not at all
    the same symbol in his.  Relax!

    
    	Well an earring isn't that uncommon on guys nowadays,  but if it
    	really bothers you,  you should let him know.  However if you ever
    	catch him in panty hose don't hesitate to break his legs!
                                    
    	Jake

    Isn't there some sort of de-facto rule that says that an earring in one
    ear (left?) is a straight-male fashion, while an earring in the other
    ear (right?) is an "I'm gay" statement?? 
    
    I know this was true at some point, but maybe this is outdated by
    now.  (In which case, I'd be wet behind the ears.)

I think an earring looks nice in a man's ear.

CQ

    Re .11:
    
    I'd say that the left/right may fall more into the roumor department.
    It's like grade school where the story was if you wore green on
    Tuesdays it meant you were queer.
    
    That conecept may have been invented by some macho nerd that thinks
    he is good at playing "Spot the Poofter".
    
    My brother-in-law wears an earring. I don't remember if it's left
    or right. He's 6'3" and a Golden Gloves boxer. Perhaps I can introduce
    you and you can ask him. I personally have grown attached to my
    teeth.
    
    Jim

    To whom it may concern.
    This is 1986.
    in 1966 "we" cared about fashion statements.
    20 years later we recocognize that minds are the only things worth
    worrying about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    
    
    	If I wasn't in the Air Nat'l Guard at the moment, I'd have a
    	earring in my left ear. The reason I don't have it now is because
    	I don't feel like putting up with the crap I'd have to go thru
    	in the military.. But come April of 1990, I'm growing a beard
    	and getting my ear pierced. 
    
    	My sister pierced my brother Dennis ear at age 15. Mom almost
    	ripped it off him right then and their. But that's the way
    	Mom is.. :-)  I'd say let him wear it.. It's only a phase..
    
    							mike

    Re: .15
    
    The fact is, the "we" may be the readers of this note, but not the
    general population, or the regional or local populations.  An earring
    in the ear can make a statement to a customer or corporate executive
    (inside or outside of DEC or any other company you might wish to
    mention) which may very well be negative.  The relative value seems
    to be loosely inverted from the individual's corporate standing.
    
    I don't have a value judgement to make; I think whatever someone
    wants to do to his/her appearance is ok with me.  Many of us, however,
    are forced to anticipate others reactions in such matters.  At age
    16, I don't think it makes a bit of difference, but would it make
    a difference to the admission review board at Princeton?  I'm not
    sure if they'd be as enlightened as we think we are...
    

    I WILL MAKE A STATEMENT WHICH IS NOT MEANT TO BE TAKEN PERSONALLY...
    
    FOR GOD'S SAKE...GROW UP!!!!
    
    The earring is irrelavent. 
    
    Is your son a good person?
    Does he live by the golden rule?
    Is his self expression a vehicle to him defining himself and therefore
    being a well-rounded person?
    Do you communicate clearly with him?
    Are you open minded enough that your kids feel comfortable to come
    and talk to you at anytime about anything.
    Its a different world in 1986...you may not like it but thats the
    reality. 
    
    You should be proud of yourself for raising a kid that has the guts
    to make his OWN statement.
    
    Besides...an earring means nothing today, right or left ear.

Since I wear an earring, I took the trouble to  read  all  of  the
replies  in  real  time.   (I  usually  save them and read them on
paper at a later time.)  I was surprised to find no  replies  from
other men who wear one.

I had thought about piercing an ear often over the years.  I like
jewelry  ...  I  wear 5 rings as well.  (It used to be 6, but the
band of one  of  them  broke  and  I  haven't  found  a  suitable
replacement  yet.)   After  my  wife  had  her  ears pierced, she
encouraged me to do the same.   When  a  dear  friend  added  her
encouragement, I decided to go ahead.

My younger daughter was somewhat  concerned  (my  older  daughter
hasn't  seen  it  yet),  my  mother  said  she didn't like it, my
mother-in-law (who lives with us) and my father  didn't  comment,
my  friends and colleagues have either complimented me or ignored
it.  I like wearing an  earring  ...  especially  since  my  wife
bought  me  one  made  of  Moldavite ... but that's another story
(more suitable for the DEJAVU conference than here).

Terry

        I have had a peirced ear for 15 years but no longer wear
    an ear ring. 10 years ago an ear ring got a man instantly tagged
    as gay or some sort of outlaw. I took immesurable heat for wearing
    one. Gays have always set the fashion trends in this country. Ig-
    norant braindead rednecks have always hollered taunts at men that
    look different, then a few years later look flamier than the objects
    of their hatred, 5 years past. Next het men will be sleeping together,
    but no, we ain't queer! It's all rather amusing, for gay men ya
    can't tell the trade from the competition without a program anymore...
    well once they open their mouths (duuhhhh Hey Frank, let's suck
    down a few brews, then kill a few queers and rape some nuns, duuh)
    :-) :-) :-)

    Somewhere I got the notion that punching holes in my body was a
    bad thing to do.  Early images of primatives with bones in their
    noses and ears still relate to pierced ears on men or women. On
    the other hand, my daughter wears three pierced errings in each
    ear.  If thats the worst thing she ever does, I will be proud.

    As someone else already pointed out, earrings for men is not
    new. My father had one 40 years ago. When my brother got one
    it was hard for him to say anything. Of course saying anything
    would have made my brother more determined to keep it anyway.
    
    My brother got his hear pierced for the same reason he wore a
    pacifier to high school for a year once. Someone told him he
    did not have the nerve to. My brother is confident in himself
    that he really doesn't usually care about what people think of
    him. Thus taking those kind of challenges 'costs' him very little.
    He also finds it fun to be different.
    
    The main reason I wouldn't wear one is that I don't like jewelry
    on me. I don't wear any except sometimes my wedding ring and/or a watch
    or cuff links. I do like cuff links though.
    
    		Alfred

    As a parent, I don't think the issue here is my opinion,
    your opinion, or anyone else's opinion about your son
    wearing an earring.  It's his ear-let him do what he 
    wants with it (yes, you're getting a lecture), as long
    as what he does is not harmful to himself or others.
    
    Frankly, I don't see how you can "make" a person of that
    age and stature do anything...sounds like there is a little
    power struggle going on here.
    
    Based on others past experiences, if you tolerate the earring,
    it will disappear shortly.  Believe me there are worse things
    he could be doing!!
    
    My 7 year old has free rein over his general appearance.  That
    includes his hair cut.  It's HIS hair...I may voice my personal
    opinion, but he has the final say.  Right now he has a nice 
    little tail.  At one point it was red, which eventually faded to
    pink.  He also has blonde streaks-when mom highlighted her hair,
    she offered to "do" his also....it was FUN!  At one point he
    wanted a mohawk.  I told him, hey it's your hair.  But you need
    to be aware that 1)your head will be shaved   2)it will itch 
    when it grows back  3) it will be cold.  He changed his mind very
    quickly.  
    
    

    
    
    >Us over 40 folks.<
    
     What's that got to do with the price of bread?
    Don't feel any different now then I did when I graduated in "64".
    
    Hey this could be another topic huh?
    
    Later,
    Cal.
    

    
    I think an earring in one ear looks very attractive on a man.  (Didn't
    anybody see Rob Lowe in "St. Elmo's Fire"?  The earring certainly
    didn't detract from his looks any.)
    
    I agree with the person who said that a 16 yr. old has the right
    to decide that type of thing for himself/herself.  
    
    I think it's good for people to try to be individuals in some way
    (not that wearing an earring is as individual as it used to be).
     Why should all men look alike - clean shaven, with suits, ties
    and short hair??  Yuck.  I like variety and I'm glad there are people
    who are determined to dress the way they want.  It makes for a more
    scenic world.
    
    Re .20, "Gays have always set the fashion trends in this country."
     I think that's probably true.  The best dressed men I've ever seen
    have been in Provincetown, and I'm serious about that.
    
    Lorna
    
    P.S.  .2, go for it Edd, it doesn't hurt that much!!  A lot of women,
    including me, wear 4 or 6 earrings!
    

< Note 30.0 by NIMBUS::OHERN >
                            -< A ring in your ear? >-

    
>    I'm curious, how many of you [men] wear an earring?  What do you
>    think of this new fashion statement for men?
     
     Well I don't...
     
     I once  taught in a school where the rule was that no pupil (boy or 
     girl) could wear "pierced ear" type earrings, but they  could  wear 
     clip  on  types.    This was a safety rule, since clip ons could be 
     pulled off in an accident, whereas the pierced style would rip  the 
     earlobe. 
     
     I personally  would  not wear an earring, but have no problems with 
     other people wearing them as a fashion accesory.  That said however 
     I have one problem: where I come from wearing two (one on each ear) 
     or more is acceptable, but wearing one has a message: in  the  case 
     of  a  woman  it  says "I am a prostitute", in the case of a man it 
     says "I am gay" (it doesn't matter which ear it is on by  the  way, 
     and  another  way of passing the same message is to wear a chain on 
     the ankle). 
     
     /. Ian .\

    
    Re .26, oh, no, and I was thinking of getting an ankle bracelet!
     Well, we'll see what happens.  God knows I could use the money
    what with Xmas coming up! :-)
    
    But, seriously *why* do interesting fashion styles have to have
    such stupid, dumb connotations????
    
    Lorna
    

    sometimes fashion statements are used as codes; such as in the gay
    culture. I have heard that a blue or red bandana worn hanging out
    of a certain pocket advertises that person's particularly favorite
    form of (uhhh) "recreational" behavior. This code facilitates meeting
    people of the preferred persuasion.
    
    And what's the code for the flower behind the ear?
    
    These codes are adopted by groups for their own purposes. The problem
    comes when the code has been dropped but some people still apply
    it anyway.
    
    A man wearing an earring used to identify him as a sailor (or pirate).
    one ear for luck, the other for vision (but never both).
    
    (ramble ramble ramble....)
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /
    

    re:.30
    
    		dat flour behind de ear is explained in the movie 
    mutant on a boundry
    
    	oops I mean mutiny on the bounty
    white in left ear available virgin female
    red in right ear passionate woman who has set her sights (poor slob!)
    any color in middle ear.............run like heck !
    

    
    	I heard that when a man wears a gold chain around his neck he
	is usually very interested in "what sign" women are, and whether
    	or not they ski.

    	Jake

    Well, it may be his ear and he's free to do with it what he wishes,
    but let me interject an unpleasant point ...
    
    I deal with customers daily, in the South, which is admittedly not
    the most avant guard place in the ole USA.  If I were to wear an
    ear ring, I think that (1) it would be counter-productive to my
    success in selling DIGITAL and (2) my management would frown on
    it (to put it mildly!) for the same reasons.
    
    Now I've no problem if anyone wants to do it.  I don't care to,
    not the the aforementioned reasons, but simply because it doesn't
    appeal to me.
    
    But, where does this cultural "reality" come into play?  There are
    cases where it is harmful to go against the status quo.
    
    Steve

    Re .26: 
    
    Major Yawn!!! Do you support the concept that a man is not allowed
    to be non-conformist in his appearance? Is this to say that only
    gay men in our society are allowed to be self-expressive? Is this
    the kind of thing tha keeps you awake at night? I tend toward global
    thermo-nuclear halocausts and whether or not my dog is getting enough
    cheese.
    
    Jim
   

    RE: .30
    
         The bandana code is kinda obsolete, since....yes again...young
    heterosexuals (more urbane types) have adopted it as their advert-
    isment for frollic of choice. Of course Orange meant "open to anything"
         Course one could ask how many men have worn or wear C*** rings.
    Now even het males are wearing them, but they can be embarassing,
    the metal ones, when one passes through airport metal detectors,
    blush! caught in the act :-)
    
    r

Whilst I cannot explain why earrings have "meanings" in my cultural background,
I can explain why ankle chains do. This is quite simple and dates back to
the British occupation of Egypt earlier this century. It was (and may still
be) the practice of Egyptian prostitutes to advertise their trade by wearing
an ankle chain. 

The connotation was brought back to England by the returning troops, and
so the wearing of ankle chains is still (though to a lesser extent than
before) frowned on ...

/. Ian .\

I've wanted to get my ear pierced for years, and I finally did it last week
(shortly before I found this note). So far the reactions have been
overwhelmingly positive. My supervisor doesn't seem to care, and since I'm
an engineer I don't see what bearing it has on the performance of my job.
The people who have commented seem to think it's either cute, sexy or both.
I like it. I'm thinking about having the other one done, and then, who
knows, maybe I'll get a tattoo.

Regarding sailors wearing earrings: the way I heard it is that if a sailor
wears an earring it indicates that s/he has survived a shipwreck. Probably
just another one of those myths.

Don.

    
    RE: .37  "shipwrecked"
    
    My understanding of the sailor's gold earring is that if his body
    were to wash ashore it was meant to pay for a decent burial.
    
                      

    
    Re .29, if I wore an ankle bracelet it would just be for a change
    since I've never worn one before.  It would just be something
    different, a little variety, instead of the same old thing everyday.
     I wish I had the courage to dress in a more nonconformist way than
    I do, but I get nervous when I notice strangers gawking at me. 
    That's whats so great about place like P-town, anything goes in
    dress.
    
    Re .32, that was a cute comment.  I figured that since I can't usually
    say that about your contributions, I'd say it when I could! :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    re: .33
    
    Unlike a tatoo, if the kid in question decides that it impacts his
    job performance, he can stop wearing the earring, and let the hole
    close up. In fact, when not wearing the earring, the hole is hardly
    noticable.
    
    In general.
    I'm currently in a community theater production with about a dozen
    high school kids. One has a pierced ear, and wore a wicked awsome
    earring with a dagger on a chain the other day. This kid is a real
    sweetie, a practicing Christian, and flirting with some of the girls.
    The earring was appreciated by all, much as any interesting pin
    would be. And it was in character (he's playing a bad guy). So,
    it certainly doesn't bother his peer group any.
    
    	Mez

I'm curious, NIMBUS::OHERN... are you a Mom or a Dad?  Are you worried
about your son's appearance or your perception of him?

Not a loaded question, I'm just curious... Moms and Dads mean different
things to different issues, and I guess I'd like a little clarity.

Oh, and Lorna, about your ankle bracelet.  Beware!!  If you wear it
INSIDE your nylons and it becomes unclasped, you'll end up walking on
it and it'll drive your CRAZY until you can get to the bathroom.

If you wear it OUTSIDE, you'll risk losing it. 

The best compromise is to get one with a safety chain and wear it
outside.

Have fun -- I loved those things!

Bugsy

>        < Note 30.40 by ULTRA::ZURKO "Security is not pretty" >
>                         -< The future and peer group >-

>    re: .33
    
>    Unlike a tatoo, if the kid in question decides that it impacts his
>    job performance, he can stop wearing the earring, .........
        
        Why should a tattoo affect anyones' job performance?
        
        Andy.
        

    Re: .43
    
    Looks to me like the reference reads ( between the lines ), "You
    can't take off a tatoo if you get tired of it. But then, you can,
    but who wants to scrape off that much skin with a Brillo pad?
    
    Not_into_pain,
    Jim

        Re: .44 [.43]
        
        I interpreted  the  reference in the same way, but it brought
        up the question  of a tattoo being a sign of ?individuality?,
        as is the earring, neither of which affect job performance in
        any way, but could affect  attitudes  of  others  in  certain
        situations.
        
        In the US., is a tattoo  (assuming  a  tastefully  decorative
        one) generally acceptable in the same way as  an  earring, or
        not?
        
        Andy.
        

    re .31
    I would think any one with a flower or anything else in their
    "middle ear" would have a real serious hearing/balance problem.
    :-}
    Re tatoos and job performance - my sample may be too small to be
    valid, but I don't know any managers with tatoos (or at least that
    show tatoos) but I do know a fair number of men in lower level jobs
    that show arm tatoos. Does this mean that guys with tatoos are less
    apt to be promoted up the ladder, or that they roll their shirt
    sleeves down after they get a promotion?

    Bonnie

    I wear an earring.
    
    Re: Earrings and work
    
        I don't think a person (even in sales :-) should be judged on
        appearance, they should be judged on performance. If the job were
        such that someone's appearance could seriously affect the
        corporation, and not just themselves, there would be justification
        for dress restrictions. If I were in such a job, I would simply
        leave my earring off at work. The whole thing about earrings and
        work is a red herring.
    
    Re: Tattoos
    
        Are tatoos generally acceptable? I think so, but perhaps more
        so for men than women. Do people have strong feelings about
        tattoos on women? Isn't it just another matter of taste?
    
    Regarding the original note (you remember, 30.0?) my initial reaction
    was one of puzzlement. WHY could you have killed him? What was the
    problem, such a serious problem that you were that angry? Is it
    really because earrings are viewed as effeminate, and effeminate
    men are suspected of being homosexual, and being homosexual is
    something awful? Or is there some other reason? This is pretty weird
    folks. Is wearing an earring different from wearing brown shoes?
    
    If a 6'5" 16 year old realizes that some folks will think he's gay
    because he wears an earring, and is willing to do it anyway, what's
    the problem? Now, I don't know your son or you, so please don't
    kill *me* for this, but what's the problem if he *is* gay? Is it
    a reflection on you as a parent? your masculinity? have you "failed"
    him in some way? Perhaps he would face difficulties as a gay male
    in our culture, but that's *society's* fault not his. If you are
    acting out of a genuine desire to shelter him from unpleasantness,
    I can sympathize with, but do not support your decision.
    
    I get the feeling that there is a lot of nudge-nudge-wink-wink going
    on in this discussion. I'd like to see it out in the open.
    
    For example, in the note (.39) a valid point was raised. I *do* wear my
    earring to get attention. I *like* attention. It doesn't bother me if
    people think I'm gay, it doesn't bother me if people think I'm
    straight. My earring acts like a low-pass filter, I don't want to talk
    to people who won't talk to men who wear earrings. It saves time. It's
    also a lot of fun. When I go out, it's another thing I can vary to suit
    my mood. To tell other people how I'm feeling. Sometimes I wear makeup,
    eyeliner, eyeshadow, sometimes lipstick.
    
    Am I gay? You guess, I'm not saying.
    Am I closeted? Hell no.
    
    	-- Charles
    
    P.S. I'd probably get labeled as one of those "neo-sensitive" males
    who tries to be "sooo understanding". Tough. I'm not going to become
    insensitive and uncaring just because Cosmo makes fun of me.
    
    P.P.S. I don't think my supervisor cares if I wear an earring. He
    has one too. He's married, with four kids.

    
    
    RE: .36
    
    	Out in the middle of another desert, Colonel, the ladies of
    	the evening wear their hair tied back. Sorta reminds me of
    	an old Irish song called "Black Ribbon Band". 
    
    	I'm refering to that adult playground called Las Vegas.
    
    
    	C.
    
    
    

     re .48:
     
     > an old Irish song called "Black Ribbon Band".
     
     It's called "Black Velvet Band".
     
     --Mr Topaz 

    
    
    RE: .50
    
    
    	Oops, sorry, you are correct. "Black Velvet Band" it is.
    
    
    
    	C.
    
    
    

    In discussing this topic with friends, one person pointed out
    that earrings on men used to connote being gay, but now it may
    be more likely a symbol of the drug/rock culture.  Earrings on
    men in rock groups may have contributed to more non-gay men
    wearing them now.   Any thoughts on this?  Are parents of boys with
    earrings more afraid (or equally afraid) that their sons are using 
    drugs with all those other earring wearers, rather than they might
    be gay?
    
    Richard

    I wrote the original note.....
    
    The reason I didn't want my son to have an earring was because I
    saw his piercing his ear as a permanent alteration to his body 
    (granted that it is a TINY hole!) and I wasn't sure he had put enough
    thought into the decision process.  He had come home with the
    earring...and had apparently decided at the spur of the moment to
    get his ear pierced while he was out with his buddies.  (Incidently,
    I didn't even know there could be issues regarding a pierced ear as a
    statement of sexual preference.)  In fact when we discussed it later,
    after everyone had cooled down, he admitted that he couldn't picture
    himself at 40 or even at 25 with an earring; and that somehow the
    picture of himself as an adult in a business suit, 
    briefcase, short hair etc etc didn't seem to work with an earring
    or even with the 'vacant' hole in his ear.  He's really a very 
    conservative kid.  
    
    I was more concerned with the rashness of a decision that would
    have a permanent (although minor) effect...than I was with his decision
    to wear an earring.  In fact, we have discussed 'glueing' a little
    ball to his ear so he can check out how he looks and feels with
    an earring...or finding some appropriate clip types for him to
    try.  He currently uses his hair style as a means of expression;
    one time he got a very very very short Burr...another time he
    experimented with spray (non-permanent) blue dye...and currently
    he is letting his hair grow looong!  I have no problems with this
    experimenting because he is making no permanent, irreversable
    decisions.  
    
    Incidently, I feel the same way about his having a tatoo
    as I do about the pierced ear.  I feel that it is my responsibility
    as a parent to give him as much freedom as possible to learn and
    experiment and to discover what is important to him...BUT also to
    make sure that his experimenting while growing up doesn't end up
    as a permanent decision which he would not be able to undo later
    if he chose to as an adult.   
     

    RE: . 52  (earrings = drugs?)
    
    Could you define exactly what you mean by "drug/rock culture"?
    
    My immediate impression is that your note connotates the two as
    being inextricably linked.
    
    And no, I don't think an earring on a male is a symbol or a clue
    as to whether this person is a drug user anymore than owning a 
    long knife indicates a person to be a slasher.
    
    If I had a 16 year old, I'd be concerned over drug use regardless
    of whether he had an earring and blue hair or a necktie and a 
    briefcase. 
    
    I do agree with you though, that rock stars with (an) earring(s) 
    undoubtedly influenced many young men into emulation.
    
    Edd

    I will personally sacrifice my time to inspect all female
    managers for tatoo's.
    
    call anytime :^)
    

    Re: .53
    
    Ok, sorry I jumped to conclusions. You sound like a reasonable person,
    and your concerns certainly sound reasonable. In which case you should
    know that an earring hole will almost always close of it's own after a
    time, usually proportional to how long you've worn earrings. Even if it
    doesn't, the hole is pretty small and not very noticable, unless
    someone is carefully examining your ears. 
    
    Is your son circumsized?
    
    As for wearing an earring at forty, my manager (you remember, the
    one with the earring, and four kids) turns fifty this year.
    
    You sound like you're trying to be reasonable, so I'll stop picking
    on you, however mildly. But it seems to me that you do indeed think
    he shouldn't wear an earring, and are looking for justifications,
    while I clearly think he should be able to, and am
    being defensive about it. I guess we're even.
    
    	-- Charles
    
    P.S. As for earrings = rock/drugs, are parents of "boys" with earrings
    more afraid that their sons are using drugs? How about parents of
    children who *listen* to rock music? Or parents of children who want to
    be rock stars. Or parents of young girls who put up posters of rock
    stars in their bedrooms?
    
    The ideas that earrings = rock stars = drugs is so full of fallacious
    assumptions I don't know where to start.

	I agree with the previous note.

    
      Humm!
    
    I'm a Manager of Information Systems.
    
    I'm over Forty
    
    Don't have a "Pot Belly"!
    
    And do have tattoos...And don't regret one of them.
    
    Cal
    

        
        I've heard  that  tattoos  can  be  removed  easily  now using
        lasers.  Anyone else hear that or have more info on it??
        
        Not that anyone I know should remove any tattoos!! :^}
        
        

    I love my tatoo, it's a butterfly on my hip. It was quite the rage
    for Janis Joplin fans. I enjoy being in conversations where people
    start making derogotory (sp?) comments about people with tatoos.
    It always upsets them when I mention mine. Maybe I like the thought
    that now they consider me wicked :-))))) Besides my husband, then
    my boyfriend encouraged me to do it cause he thought it was sexy.
                                            
    
    It is easy for me to say though since mine only shows in private!
    
    Liesl

    Re: -1
    
    	The small tatoos by themselves aren't bad,  its the giant landscape
    	scenes that really turn me off.  I can't imagine being with a lady
	whose chest looks like the side of one of those recreational vans.

    	Jake

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the whole idea of a stud earring was 
because the hole heals over if there isn't an earring in it for any length 
of time. If that is the case, and I believe it is, then there is no problem 
with your child having an earring now and giving up the idea later?

Jerry

The Peabody Museum in Salem, MA currently has an exhibit on tatoos.
From what I've heard its pretty complete and graphic.

I plan to see it.

Don't know if any of the people there also have earrings.  :-)

	Mike

Isn't this called tinnitis??? when you get a ring in your ear?

    *Of course* earrings = drugs is a fallacious statement, the same
    as earrings [in men] = being gay.  I just wanted to ask if anyone
    *thought* earrings = drug user or being gay.  I don't think so,
    necessarily, though I do think that a male who has a pierced ear
    has defined himself as being one to try something different
    (against the norm?), and therefore *may* be more likely to
    experiment with drugs (or whatever you want to define as
    non-traditional social behavior--I know, I'm wide open for
    attack on this).  But my note was a question about attitudes,
    not a statement of belief.
    
    Re: .54   Edd, I should have put "drug/rock culture" in
    quotes as you did.  Again, my statement was an attempt
    at defining attitudes.  My guess is that if you asked the
    average "person-in-the-street" if s/he thought rock stars
    commonly used drugs, the majority of those asked would
    say yes.  

    Apologies to earring wearers/rock music listeners who are
    not drug users.
    
    Richard
    

     Ah but, what about earring wearers/rock music listeners who 
    ARE drug users???:-)

    what about 'em?

    
    	They must be gay!!!

    This has become a garbage note.

    Re .0: My viewpoint. If your son wants to wear an earring, let him.
    Earrings in men implys nothing...esp. such issues as mentioned (being
    gay, using drugs, cross-dressing, whatever!). I'm 6'3" and
    your average football-player type...I plan to get an earring. I
    don't use drugs and I'm not gay! Personally, I don't give a sh*t
    if I get one and everyone thinks so anyway. If you go through life
    worrying about how society is judgeing you, you should just hang
    it up right now and save yourself the hassle.
    
    -WjB
    

    I think there is nothing wrong with a man wearing an earring.  My
    husband has two holes in the same ear.  The only problem I have
    with him is he is always wearing my studs.  I solved that problem
    by buying him his own diamond.
    
    He was very concerned about people's reactions when he first had
    it done.  Especially since he is an electrician in Boston.  But
    he had absolutely no problems.  At 6 foot, 190 lbs. (and extremely
    strong) not too many people would have started bothering him anyways.
    
    Let your son have his earring.  If he gets sick of it he can always
    just remove the earring.  It's not like he is having his face tattooed
    or anything drastic.
    
    F.Y.I. I have three holes in one ear and two in the other.  I am
    sure many people think that's too many but it's my ears.....
    
    
    

    
       I once got an earing, when my parents came back from their vacation
    they said, "It's out or you're out." My parents are... well...
    conservative and old.
    
       As soon as I move I'm going to get another.
    
       BTW, If you don't keep it in for a long time after getting it,
       it will close up.
    
    Supernaut

    Gee, Bill, what happens if he is gay? Will you throw him out, never
    to be seen again?
    
    As a fellow parent, I urge you to reconsider your attitudes. 

    If it ever happens, I doubt you'll pursue your avowed path.
    
    Life just isn't that easy.

    RE: bill
    
    	Please don't be upset when I say that I'm glad I don't live
    	under your roof. Personally, if I had a son who came up to me
    	with an earring but wasn't on drugs I'd feel relieved.  I'm
    	getting out of the Air Nat'l Guard soon and I'm going to 
    	reconsider getting an earring..
    
    						mike

re :30.74 and 30.76 by GENRAL::BSTEWART

Bill,

 the attitude that comes across in your note will not help you in dealing with
a teenager who is going through a rebellious peiod of their life. By being
totally inflexible you are giving the teenager something to rebel against, the
more you threaten the more determined the teenager becomes.

Any human being must grow and discover their own values, you have a great chance
as a parent to influence that growing person, if you alienate them over trivial
issues such as appearence then what chance have you got when it comes to hard
drugs and crime?

I speak from experience, my father (who has since changed dramatically) took
too hard a line with me, for several years I took no notice of his views and
did the opposite wherever possible, it took me years to get out of an "authority
hating attitude".

Thanks for listening,
Dave.

    RE .80:
    
    > I hope to instill in his mind that an earring in his ear does not
    > make him a better person. 
    
    How do you propose to present a credible, consistent argument to your
    son that wearing the earring does not make him a better person without
    acknowledging that NOT wearing the earring does not make him, you, or
    anyone else a better person, thus blowing your argument on the matter
    altogether? 
    
    - M (who doesn't wear an earring, but knows a faulty argument when
         he sees it.)

    Ear rings come in two varieties right? thoses that require that you
    drill a hole in your flesh to wear them, and those that do not.
    
    Whilst wearing an ear ring does not make you a better person, drilling
    holes in your flesh self evidentally damages your body.
    
    If I had a son and he wished to wear a ring, then my feeling is that
    whilst he was still a minor I could and would forbid him drilling holes
    in himself for cosmetic purposes. If he was prepared to wear a clip-on
    ring then that would be a different magnitude of problem, and one with
    which I believe I could come to terms...
    
    /. Ian .\

    Holes in an ear heal up in a few weeks of not wearing anything in
    them.

	A slight change of drift here.......

	How would estranged fathers feel about their young (3 years old) 
	daughter's ears being pierced, against their (remote) will?

Richard. 

    RE: .82
    
    	Then I hope that you do the same for your daughter Ian.
    
    RE: .80
    
    	Geez Bill, based on your arguement (?), what are the people
    who know me but have prejiduces (sp?) against earrings going to
    think if I walk in someday with a diamond stud in my ear? The point
    is that I don't give a flying fig what they think.  And if I
    interviewed for a job and was turned down because I had an earring
    then I wouldn't want to work for them in the 1st place! (then I'd
    consider a EEO suit. :-))  Teach him to respect others opinions
    and ways of life. Teach him to respect himself. But PLEASE don't
    teach him to be a bigoted child. (ie: "My Dad said earrings are
    for sissys!")
    
    	Let your son make mistakes. My parents tried to shield me from
    the world by not letting me be myself. I've since rebelled and am
    now fiercely independent. Granted, you do have to "be a parent"
    sometimes but try not to protect him from that world out there.
    The sooner he knows about it the better.  He'll thank you for it
    later.  
    
    	God, I wonder what I'm gonna be like when I'm in the same shoes..
    	:-)
    
    							mike

    I'm agin children growing up before their time. 3 years old is probably
    too young to have pierced ears in my opinion.
    
    Depends on the local culture, though.

>    I'm agin children growing up before their time. 3 years old is probably
>    too young to have pierced ears in my opinion.
    
Agreed. Bare in mind young children are very active and may catch the ring
on a solid object that could (depending on the strength of earing) rip the
ear.

Dave.

re:.84>> Then I hope that you do the same for your daughter Ian.
        
    Certainly: I thought we were only discussing BOYS wearing ear rings.
    However to set the record straight I am opposed to either boys or girls
    doing themselves physical damage. I object to ear studs/rings, tattoos,
    even the consequences of smoking/drinking/drugs etc; all on the grounds
    that they physically abuse the body.
    
    /. Ian .\

    	Bill does not need me to come to his support.  However, I believe
    a number of the responses to his notes deserve comment.  Bill has
    taken a stand which is quite simple, in my opinion, and valid. 
    As one of the boy's parents he has certain responsibilities and
    authority which he assumes.  Bill has qualified certain rules of
    behavior for his son, one of which is concerned with earrings. 
    Why is this wrong?  Where is it written that parents are suppose
    to suggest rather than dictate modes of behavior?  I suggest many
    of the responses against Bill indicate their authors lack the courage
    of their convictions or, worse, have no convictions.
    
    	A 'hard' father (whatever the hell that means) should not make
    for a 'bad' child.  Authority is a day to day reality.  Minimizing
    authority in the home will not assist a child's development.  Neither
    will maximizing it.  (Extremes are rarely any good.)  Teaching a
    child the reality of authority (there are rules which you must conform
    to or suffer the consequences) will assist in preparing the child
    for life.
    
    	My parents had a lot of rules which they enforced with an iron
    hand (though no spankings).  I had my years as a rebel, which we
    all survived.  Were my years of rebelion a result of my parents'
    rules?  If yes, then why were none of their other children rebels?
    
    	Teach children to understand authority.  Such knowledge will
    serve them well in life.  (Note the word *understand*.)
    
    Douglas

>                             -< Bill is correct! >-

Maybe, however, I think it is in *your* opinion that he is correct.


>    	Teach children to understand authority.  Such knowledge will
>    serve them well in life.  (Note the word *understand*.)


ie, understanding means understanding that any boy who wears one is a sissy

great!

Bill, just suppose, being completely hypothetical, that your son rejected 
your authority on this one. He would, to quote you, sleep on the porch, 
just how far would you take this, would you be prepared to lose your son 
rather than lose this piece of authority?? People leave home for all sorts 
of reasons, I don't think it *completely* absurd that this sort of thing 
could do this to a child going through puberty. 

He would have the chance if he chose to wear a ring to assess for *himself* 
other peoples reactions before the time came for him to job hunt. If, at 
that point, he chose to give up an earing, the hole would close in a matter 
of weeks. Advise your child, but let him gain experience. It's no good just 
telling a child not to touch something hot, they never understand until 
they first burn themselves. 

Jerry

    
    RE: Everyone who thinks earrings are fine for girls and not okay
    for boys.
    
    Doesn't it bother you that you are a blatant *sexist* in this matter?
    It should.  Furthermore, if you claim to be non-sexist (as most men do
    these days, especially at DEC :-)) but still hold to this one belief,
    then you are a *hypocrite* as well.  Doesn't that bother you?  It darn
    well should.
    
    	-Ellen

    re:.88
    
        >> I object to ear studs/rings ... on the grounds that they
        >> physically abuse the body.
    
    I must disagree with that statement.  I don't understand how putting
    a hole in an ear for an ear ring is a physical abuse of the body.
    If done responsibly, it causes no pain, and will not become infected.
    What qualifies as a physical abuse?  Any alteration of the body?
    Or alterations done for cosmetic reasons?  If it's the cosmetic
    reasons you object to, does that mean you would not let you son
    or daughter have their teeth pulled while having braces installed.
    Or that you will never let you son be circumsized, or that you 
    would never allow yourself or you children to wear contact lenses.
    
    If you would not object to one of these "abuses", it would seem
    to me that you are not objecting to the use of ear rings because
    of the "physical abuse" they cause, rather because of some prejudice
    you yourself have against them.
    
    Rich.
    
    BTW - I had had my ear pierced and had worn a stud in it.  I never
    considered it to be an abuse of my body.  I stopped wearing the
    stud, the hole closed up and no one would ever know that it had
    been pierced.
    

        Speaking of "physical abuses"... do you smoke?  Do you sit in
        the sun to get a tan?  These are generally accepted activities
        which many people do without even thinking: yet both are far
        more serious physical abuses than a little hole in one's ear.
        Will you prevent your son from going to the beach to avoid
        abusing his body?  If not, I suggest you reexamine that
        particular excuse carefully... 
        
        	/dave

    re:.94
    
�   What qualifies as a physical abuse?  Any alteration of the body?
�   Or alterations done for cosmetic reasons?  
    
    Cosmetic mutilation.
    
�   If it's the cosmetic reasons you object to, does that mean you would 
�   not let you son or daughter have their  teeth  pulled  while  having 
�   braces installed.
 
    I've  never  encountered  the  concept of pulling teeth in this way: 
    since you mention it, no, I don't believe  in  having  teeth  pulled 
    purely  for  cosmetic purpose.  If they cannot be repaired then they 
    could be removed, but my initial thought  on  this  is  that  it  is 
    unecesary. 
    
�   Or that you will never let you son be circumsized,
 
    If he wished to adopt a religious faith that required it it would be 
    OK, but  then  that  wouldn't  be  cosmetic.    For  that  matter is 
    circumsion  a  cosmetic  operation?  I  admit  it  might be elective 
    surgery, but hardly cosmetic, surely?
    
�   you would never allow yourself  or  you  children  to  wear  contact 
�   lenses.
 
    Irrelevant,  since  this  involves no sort of physical change to the 
    body.  If they need corrective lenses and wish to wear  contacts, or 
    even if they just want to change eye color for cosmetic resaons that 
    is hardly a mutilation.
    
    re .95
    
�   Do I smoke?
    
    I smoke the occasional cigar (very occasional).  However  I  did not 
    start to smoke as a minor (I was 24 when I started). My parents (who 
    both  smoke)  did  not  wish me to smoke as a child, and I respected 
    their wishes.  I repeat I did not start  to  smoke  until  I  was no 
    longer a minor, and no longer living in their house.
    
�   Do I sunbathe?
    
    No.
    
    Look  folks: I do not object to kids (of either sex) wearing jewelry 
    that can be removed without the body being damaged.  If they want to 
    wear ear rings then they should wear the clip on kind.  If they want 
    to get their ears (or any other part of their anatomy) pierced  when 
    they  are  no  longer  minor children then that is their decision. I 
    don't object to cosmetics that can be washed off, but  I  object  to 
    tattoos  that  require  surgical removal.  Again if when they are no 
    longer minors they wish to have their entire body covered in tattoos 
    they  may  do  so.  Indeed when they are adults they may do anything 
    [legal] that they choose.
    

    /. Ian .\

    Each of us raises our children differently.  I tended to make issues
    out of important things like drugs, marijuana and speeding. 
    
    #2 son had an earring for 3 days.  I guess it itched, but it is
    gone.
    
    Joyce
    

    
    Interesting topic.  I am a father, daughter 3 1/2, son almost 6
    months.  Ask me this question before I was a father and my views
    were very "liberal".  Not anymore....does parenthood make you a
    conservative?  My daughter will not have pierced ears as a child.
    It's that simple.  When she can discuss the issue of pierced ears, say
    teenage years, we will discuss it.  Not until.  As for my son, I
    plan to bring him up in my light.  As all parents do, we look out
    for our children's "best" interest.  Really, its our opinion and
    our interest.  If Christopher (or Kerry for that matter) decides he/she
    wants to do something *against* my "best" interest then it a matter
    for discussion and compromise.  But, I set down the rules and if
    one is to be broken, changed, etc., there will be a discussion on
    the issue.  One thing I learned very quickly as a parent, you don't
    control, you influence a great deal.
    
    As for the comment about learning by getting burnt...that was my
    dad's attitude and it worked.  No, dad didn't let me get physically
    burned, it more of a I_told_you_so lesson.  I learnt respect for
    authority as they are experienced and not out to hurt you, and I
    learnt respect for material items, the toys, cars, etc.  A good
    example:
    
    	My dad said don't drink.  He knew as a teenager I was going
    off in the woods and getting drunk.  He let me off a couple of times,
    but the third time, if I came home drunk on friday or saturday
    night guess who mowed the lawn the next day?  Did you ever try to
    walk behind a power mower with a hangover?  I never came home
    rip-roaring drunk after that.  And when I got to drive I never need
    that thrill of getting drunk....I always was aware of the next days
    suffering!  This is a example of "burning one's self".
       
    hope to be a good parent forever.....
    
    GOG

    Re Bill & Doug:
       I realize that how one brings up their children is their own
    business, but in my opinion the "I'm the All-Knowing, All-Powerful
    Father and you'll do what I tell you to" standard authoritative
    line just doesn't wash anymore. There *is* some weight in the fact
    that the society on a whole is a lot more liberal in their views
    & thinking than it was just a few years ago. Peer presure is incredible
    on the youth of today, and what they need is support from their
    parents, not orders! 
       Fact is, I don't have kids, but I'm young enough to know and
    see what happens on the `other' end of the spectrum...the side the
    parents don't see (and often can't understand). You think that your
    kid won't try Crack, Pot, Ecstasy, Mesc, Speed and all the other
    sh*t that frequents them at scholl because YOU told them not too??
    WRONG! This is where the `Brun' issue prevails...Esp if you as a
    parent are firm on other issues (such as earrings, staying out late,
    drinking), the kids thinking is `well, he gets pissed off at whatever
    I do, so what does it matter if I do try (whatever)...whats it gonna
    matter.' I've seen this happen SO many times to friends whos parents
    tried to be firm and set good examples for their children, well, it
    doesn't always work out their way. My parents, while not condoning drugs,
    pre-marital sex, drinking and driving, etc, realized what society
    had to offer to a young man like myself, so they opted to take a
    different approach to the issues at hand. They knew I'd probably
    try a few things, but moreso they always reinforced that I could
    *talk* to them about what was going down and what I was doing.
    There they would make suggestions about what was wise and smart
    to do. I think it worked great, and thank them for being so open.
       Again, my opinion says that a more open relationship with your
    children works better than a dictatorship. All I can say is "good
    Luck"....
    
    -WjB   
    

>     Understanding means understanding that any boy that wears one
>      is a sissy.
>    
>     Douglas was talking about authority.  Where in the he** did you
>    get sissy from.  I don't remember this coming up at any time since
>    I entered my original note.

If your son wants to wear one but you won't let him, I suspect this is how he 
will rationalize it to his friends.

    >  It's no good telling your child not to touch something hot, they
       never learn until they first burn themselves.
       
>       First off, I would like to say "HORSEPUCKY!".  Lets take for
>    instance your child wants to try "Crack, Cocaine, Heroin, Acid,"
>    any of the drugs.  What you are telling me to do is say nothing and
>    let him go and do it.  

No, when a child *first* learns to understand and *respect* advice given 
by a parent, this is an area where they use *experience*, because at that 
stage in the learning process they cannot understand rational argument. After 
this you can build on such experience so that the child learns to respect your
rational advice, particularly where it *is* important. I do not think 
your opinion is *important* re earrings, it *is* important re crack, coke etc.
If you waste the respect your son has for your advice by blowing it over 
something like an earring you could well lose him to the true evils.
    
    >  How far would I push my statement of "Sleeping on the porch?"
    
>       Come on, I do love my children, earring or not.  I use that as
>    a figure of speech.  It would be handled simply and quickly.  My
>    son would remove the earring and I would throw it out in Fridays
>    garbage.  Actually my feeling right now, is that I will never have
>    to face my son coming home with an earring.


And, to repeat my question, would you be prepared to lose your son over it 
if he stood up to you??



Jerry

    As you ask, I have two sons and a daughter. I am not a conservative.

    Why get het up about earrings? What about long hair, short hair,
    a mohican? What about blue shorts? What about your son having the
    same rights as anyone else in regard to controlling his body?
    
    Children are lent to us for a few years by nature. If they are to
    continue to be our friends after puberty, we should let them learn
    from our experiences, not from our "rules".
    
    It is absolutely useless to take firm attitudes toward matters like
    this. Being inflexible on such a truly trivial matter would surely give
    your son pause for thought if he wanted to discuss something *serious*
    with you - like drugs, or what career he should pursue, or if he should
    marry the girl he just went to bed with. 
    
    How could a reasonable hearing be *possible* in such a household.
    
    One thing I am learning as I grow older, I have to *grow* to *survive*.
    Once I get entrenched in unenforcable "rules" for my kids, I'll be lost
    to them forever as an advisor and a friend and will only remain as the
    "man who fathered me". 

    So as to avoid the charge, may I say that we are discussing the
    topic, not harrasing those who do not share opinions.

    
     My parents were very liberal. I come from a family of 4 boys and
    2 foster sisters. My older brothers and sisters grew up in the sixties
    thus forcing my parents liberal attitudes. By the time my younger
    brother and myself became teenagers my parents were leniant by
    experiance.(or shell shock) My father had the attitude that if any
    of us wanted to play like men/woman we had to work like men/woman.
    He carried this philosophy to just about all aspects of our
    developement.(with the exception of drugs)
    I tend to have the same attitudes with my three sons. I of course
    have certain rules in my home but these are for the preservation
    of peace. No hitting, excessive name calling, back talk etc...
    I personally don't like ear-rings or most cosmetic applications
    people are in to. I don't even like make-up on my wife. (How can
    she improve perfection?) It's not even a matter of my tolerating
    it. It ain't my body. I don't like growing a beard, it itches too
    much. My wife would prefer me with long hair in a pony-tail and
    a full beard. We both make concessions. I have longish hair (no
    beard). She tones down her make-up. My oldest son is seven and just
    starting to express preferences regarding his attire and hair style.
    (He dresses like G.I. Joe and has short hair.) 
    When my sons are intheir teens they'll probably experiment with
    their apperiances but I hope not to rebel or spite me. Because of
    my and my wifes attitudes on such things our children may not even
    want to. I hope they find more important issues to invovle themselves
    in. Like doing well in school, sports, pursuit of girls (or being
    pursued by girls), using my car (or attaining their own).
    Whatever their interests I feel they need my support and advice
    on too many other issues than to be concerned with cosmetics.
    It's good to voice your opinions. That's called honesty. But to
    enforce your ideals on others, that's dictatorship. 
    
    
                                        Rob
    

Re: .93

"It would be handled simply and quickly.  My son would remove the earring 
and I would throw it out in Fridays garbage."

Your fantasy version of the situation says that this issue will be handled 
simply and quickly.  I doubt it.  This issue is not simple.  A battle between 
wills is never simple or quick, it's usually very complex, long and drawn out.

My question is: what if your son refused to remove the earring?  Flatly 
refused. Imagine a dialogue wherein your son said "No."  What do you do then?

As a teenager, my reaction to blind, unreasoning, authority was to do exactly
what I was told not to do, even when I really did not want to do it!  My 
determination to do what was forbidden matched my mother's determination to 
prevent me.  It became a power struggle, and I "won."  Of course, I didn't
really win.  And neither did she.  We both lost something special which has
never been recovered.

CQ

    Ah! teenage rebellion...
    
    I remember  when  I  was  about 12 doing something I wasn't supposed 
    to...  it wasn't particularly heinous by todays standards I suppose. 
    I went  to  a  party and not only did I stay after my curfew time, I 
    had a drink (one, so no I wasn't drunk).  When I  arrived  home both 
    parents  were waiting (well it was only about 1030PM) and I was sent 
    to bed.
    
    The following day I got a carpeting from Father. It was explained in 
    no uncertain terms that if I did not obey the house rules they would 
    not be willing to bear the expenses of keeping me  at  school  after 
    the legal school leaving age (then 15).  The consequence of this was 
    simple,  I  would  be  unable  to  complete  my  education,  go   to 
    university,  and consequently all acceptable careers would be closed 
    to me.
    
    Nothing  further  was  said about it from that day on, but each half 
    term's school report served as a reminder of the state of affairs. I 
    never  rebelled  again.   It is indicative however, of how strong an 
    impression this incident made on me that I still vividly remember it 
    today, decades later.
    
    Incidentally  this was considered a serious but not severe breach of 
    household discipline: I was expected to know when to be in. Had they 
    explicitly  told  me  to  return by a certain time then I would have 
    received a tawsing.
    
    Strict as my upbringing was,  I  certainly  never  held  it  against 
    either of my parents, and we remain on good terms to this day.
    
    /. Ian .\

    
    
    	You are so uptight about your kid coming home
    	with an earring?
    
    	Be happy that he is not coming home drunk, stoned
    	or missing an appendage for g-d's sake.
    
    	
    	

    Perhaps if those fathers who wish to discourage their son from wearing
    an earring would offer to have their own ear pierced "to share the
    expense of the earrings"??? 
    
    grins,
    Marge
    

    I finally muddled through this mess and now its my turn to invoke
    the wrath of the masses.  I'll start by admitting two things:
    
    1) I have no children, never will, I don't like children.
    2) Bill is my best friend, so you can't throw that in my face later.
    
    I do not intend to try to tell anyone how to raise their children,
    but I do intend to share with you some experiences that I have.
    How many of you can honestly claim to be an expert in child raising
    by simply having raised a couple of children or from being raised
    as a child?  I personally know an expert, he is a child psychologist.
    He cannot control his own son.  The kid is constantly in trouble
    and all he gets is "Don't do that" about 3 times and then he is
    ignored.  Now, if an 'expert' in the field can't control his own
    son, what makes you think that you can tell anyone how he/she should
    raise their child?  In my opinion, Bill has done one hell of a job
    raising his daughter.  Other than relatives, his kids are the ONLY
    kids welcome in my house.  In fact, his daughter is so well behaved
    that I volunteered to baby sit her.  I'm sure that when his son
    is old enough to get around, he will be equally as well behaved.
    I really wish that everyone with children would take notes from
    what Bill has to say, instead of letting your children run rampant
    in supermarkets and restaurants.
    
    re .86
    >	Depends on the local culture, though.
        
    This is a very valid statement.  We live in Colorado, the West.
    If people here acted like they do back east, they'd be laughed out
    of town.  We have a lot of farmers and cowboys, and I'll be the
    first to admit that I'm a hick.  What I see in the paper about the
    way people act and dress back east and in California, I'm damned
    proud to be a hick.  Punk hair styles and earrings on men's ears
    receive a lot of stares here.  I personally would not want to be
    wearing an earring and mistakenly walk into a country bar full of
    cowboys, or walk past a group of cowboys on the street.  You talk
    about an earring not being of physical harm, trying justifying that
    after a meeting of that sort.  You'll be lucky to have your teeth.
    Colorado may be a bit backwards and behind the times, but if you
    choose to live here, you'd better plan on living accordingly.  If
    I had a son, I'd feel EXACTLY like Bill does.  If I lived in Boston,
    I might feel differently.  As we get more influx of people from
    Massachusetts, etc., attitudes are changing in the cities, but in
    the outlying towns, mountain folk don't cotton to that stuff.
    
    re .100
    >	...would you be prepared to lose your son over it if he stood 
    >	up to you??    
    
    My sister has two children, both teenagers.  We were raised in a
    family in which we couldn't afford to have everything we wanted,
    so she decided to raise her children to have everything they wanted.
    
    My nephew wears an earring, has a computer to play games with, wears his
    hair however he wants to.  He had everything that a boy could want.
    He decided to give his mother the 'finger' and moved to Alabama
    because he didn't like the weather here.  He was 14.  She let him.
    After all, she never raised a hand to him before and now that he
    is big enough, he scares her and he knows it.  She believes that
    it is his life to do with what he wants.  Last I heard, he had been
    arrested for shop lifting, frequenting a whorehouse, and child
    molesting while baby sitting.  He has done a lot with his life.
    
    Her daughter, 16, is pregnant, moved to Alabama to be with the father,
    sold her car, which her mother gave to her, to buy food, and is 
    now living on welfare.  She's done wonders with her life, too.
    
    How would you like for these to be YOUR children?
             
    re .103
    >    It's good to voice your opinions. That's called honesty. But to
    >	enforce your ideals on others, that's dictatorship. 
    To enforce your ideals on your offspring may be dictatorship, but
    isn't it necessary to raise them to be decent adults.  No one is
    enforcing their ideals on adults here.  I can't stand for someone
    to tell me how to live, like Jerry Falwell does.  I'm an adult,
    I make my own living, I own my own house, and I'll do as I wish,
    within legal limits.  The military didn't allow this and that's
    why I'm now a civilian.  Dictatorship wouldn't allow an adult to have
    the freedoms that we do.  The intent isn't to tell an adult participant
    not to wear an earring, but rather disciplining a child.  There
    isn't enough discipline anymore.  One of my favorite quips is that
    if ever I want children, I can simply go to the store and see how
    the children there act.  That cures the desire.  The best behaved
    children are the ones who are disciplined.  If you don't discipline
    your children, you won't be invited to my house and I'll be busy
    if you call.
                
    If I ever had a son, I would look to Bill for advice, he should
    be, and I'm sure he is, very proud of the way his daughter is growing
    up.
    
    Spence

>		I personally know an expert, he is a child psychologist.
>    He cannot control his own son.  The kid is constantly in trouble
>    and all he gets is "Don't do that" about 3 times and then he is
>    ignored.  Now, if an 'expert' in the field can't control his own
>    son, what makes you think that you can tell anyone how he/she should
>    raise their child?

I am not saying you are wrong in your conclusions about badly behaved and
well behaved children but have you considered the following;

Children go through different stages of development in which they behave
extremly badly in order to test 'how far they can go'. Children also
go through stages were they are so well behaved it makes the hair stand
up on the back of your neck, they are getting smart, be carefull :^)

A child that is perfectly behaved is just as likely to be maladjusted to
society as a child that behaves very badly at the other end of the spectrum.

I have no children but working with children was my first career and I have
trained in child psychology.

Dave.

	Knowing the nationalities of the various people who have
responded to this topic would, I feel, be quite interesting.  Not
nationalities in the U.S. sense (it seems most of us in the U.S.
state we are Italian, English, Welsh, Greek, Irish, etc. even though
we are fourth generation citizens of the U.S. and have never traveled
outside the U.S.).  But nationalities in the true sense of the word; 
where we were born and the country of our current citizenship.  
Heritage plays an important role in our lives but does tend to 
thin out as time and generations pass.

	Going a bit out on a limb, I suggest a majority of the 
responders to this topic which attacked Bill's personal rule against
his son wearing an earring by drawing vague comparisons to:

	.  sunbathing

	.  smoking

	.  Bill deciding wearing an earring is sissy

	.  etc.

or by supporting such twaddle are second or earlier generation U.S.
citizen who live on the east coast and are suburbanites or live on
    the west coast.

	Bill has simply stated there are rules which his children will
be responsible to observe.  He doesn't say the rules will not be
explained or discussed.  He doesn't say his rules should be adopted
by other parents.  He also refrains from explaining his stance against
a son wearing earrings, which is fully his right.  It is not written 
that personal opinions expressed in Notes must be explained or defended
(Bill has defended his opinion to my satisfaction).

	There is a topic in Womannotes which asks if readers like
children.  Currently lacking the energy necessary to respond to the
attacks I am certain my response to that topic would generate I have
been putting off same.  But some of that future response screams to
be voiced here.  Many children (= ages 4 through 17 or so) in the U.S.
act without respect for other people or personal property.  They appear
to be guided by nothing more than a very self serving opinion of their
own importance.  Is this a result of their parents not having the courage
to assume the rightful role of authority figure?  I don't hear as many
children yelling at their parents in countries outside the U.S.  Nor do
I see many parents in the countries outside the U.S. allowing their
children to act without respect for authority.  

	The sexes in the U.S. are being homogenized.  The line between
male and female becomes less clear each year.  Some of this is good
but not all of it.  The roles of parent and child are also being
homogenized.  Some of this is also good but some of it is very
negative.  The U.S., by most standards, is fast becoming a lawless
society.  Why?  In part because we are not teaching our children self
discipline.  Also, because we are not supplying them with good direction
or good role models.  By not establishing or enforcing proper rules
of conduct we are telling our children they are free to do just about
whatever they wish.

	I am a recent suburban homeowner who was raised in Boston.  The
conduct of my suburban neighbors, and their children, would not be
at all acceptable in the neighborhood where I was raised.  For example,
there is no respect of private property.  I have a small pond behind
my house which draws kids and their parents in the warmer weather for
fishing and in the winter as a place to ice skate.  This pond is private
property but no family ever asks permission to use it, they assume
the owner will not mind.  Of course, if someone is hurt playing around
the pond then the family wants to sue.  I have come home to find
people 'relaxing' on my back deck after a long afternoon of ice 
skating!  One family was having a picnic in my back yard!  Now,
I don't have a large piece of land (1/2 acre).  The property is
fenced on three sides (the pond is jointly owned and not fenced).
Anyone who saw the pond and my yard would know they are private
property.  One evening (July 3rd) some local teenagers were playing
with fire crackers around the pond.  I was sitting out on the deck
and asked them not to play with the fire crackers (I did not demand
that they get the hell off my property), explaining I was trying to
get some work done and the noise was very distracting.  The wonderful
children cursed me and later in the evening threw rocks at the house.
I did not call the police.  Instead I chased the kids until one of 
them entered his house.  A talk with his father almost resulted in 
a fight (the father and me) as a result of the wonderful role model
telling me to mind my own business (!), to stop harassing his son
(!), etc.  What values has this child been taught?  I suggest his
parents have failed to teach their child how to act in a civilized
society.  He certainly hasn't been taught discipline or respect for
others.  

Douglas

     re .110:
     
     It would be helpful, I'm sure, if you stopped trying to characterize
     people by the category in which you place them.  (E.g., "most of us in
     the U.S. state we are Italian, English, Welsh, Greek, Irish, etc. even
     though we are fourth generation citizens of the U.S. and have never
     traveled outside the U.S.")  People are individuals, and your
     consistent efforts to ascribe different learned traits to individuals
     based on the country in which they were reared denies such
     individuality.
     
     The only thing that fits in a pigeonhole, Mr Williams, is a pigeon.
     
     --Mr Topaz 

re .110:                        

Are you basing your views on the state of American society on your own
inability to communicate with teenagers and their fathers or have you taken
part in a broader study of social conditions?

Dave.

        .110: This is almost an aside, but since you insist on the
        attack, a defense is in order... the comparisons to sunbathing
        and smoking (mine) were not vague, nor were they in any sense
        "twaddle" ("foolish, trivial" - American Heritage Dictionary).
        
        Someone (and I don't recall who, nor shall I bother to look
        through the replies to find it) decided to excuse a rule
        against earrings on the basis of "physical damage".  Concern
        about physical damage to one's children is fine, but such
        an excuse in this case is absurd, as any number of things our
        society (even---or especially---"traditional" society) takes
        for granted are significantly more physically hazardous...
        
        Quite simply, any child who is not allowed to do anything more
        dangerous than piercing his or her ears is going to grow up to
        be unbelievably handicapped in any modern society... because
        such activities include not only sunbathing and smoking, but
        crossing the street, driving, and even taking a bath (people
        *have* been known to drown in bathtubs, you know). 
        
        If you want to argue authoritarianism versus intelligent
        discussion, anarchy, or anything else, that's fine... offering
        vague, irrelevant, and hypocritical excuses such as "physical
        damage" is, in your words, "twaddle".
        
        	/dave

    Re: .111
    
    	It might make you uncomfortable for someone to use genaralities
    but your discomfort doesn't make the generalities incorrect.  Fact
    - most citizens of the U.S. have never travelled outside the
    continental limits of the U.S. (the number decreases even more if
    you include Canada).  Fact - most citizens of the U.S. when asked
    their nationality will not respond U.S. or American (although, in my
    experience, citizens of Canada will say they are Canadian).
    
    	As a test, have a third party ask after the nationalities of
    the people in your office (assuming your office is in the U.S.).
    
    Re: .112
    
    	I did not state any views on American society.  I did sate some
    views on U.S. society.  Said views were not based on my ability
    to communicate with teenagers or their parents.  An example of a
    problem did reference *one* experience I had with some teenagers
    and the father of a specific teenager.
    
    	Are you suggesting our society is not growing increasingly lawless?
    I am, based, if on nothing else, how dangerous it is to walk the
    street of many major urban areas in the U.S.  Crime rates comparing
    the major industrial countries are published a number of times each
    year (even in many local newspapers).  Do you know more people are
    murdered during an 'average' day in New York than during an 'average'
    year in Great Britain?  Do you know there are more people mugged
    every week in Boston (a city which is not concidered 'unsafe') than
    in all European countries combined in any given month?  Do you know
    the U.S. is the only developed country in the free world where capital
    punishment is being practiced (suggesting that the U.S. condones
    murder under specified circumstances)?
    
    Douglas

    re 108:
    
    >This is a very valid statement.  We live in Colorado, the West.
    >If people here acted like they do back east, they'd be laughed out
    >of town.  We have a lot of farmers and cowboys, and I'll be the
    >first to admit that I'm a hick.  What I see in the paper about the
    >way people act and dress back east and in California, I'm damned
    >proud to be a hick.  Punk hair styles and earrings on men's ears
    >receive a lot of stares here.  I personally would not want to be
    >wearing an earring and mistakenly walk into a country bar full of
    >cowboys, or walk past a group of cowboys on the street.  You talk
    >about an earring not being of physical harm, trying justifying that
    >after a meeting of that sort.  You'll be lucky to have your teeth.
    >Colorado may be a bit backwards and behind the times, but if you
    >choose to live here, you'd better plan on living accordingly.

    All I can say is am I ever glad I live in a place where folks are less
    narrow-minded than in Reagan-loving Colorado!  Is it still okay
    to beat your wives out there, too?
    
    >My nephew wears an earring, has a computer to play games with, wears his
    >hair however he wants to.  He had everything that a boy could want.
    >He decided to give his mother the 'finger' and moved to Alabama
    >because he didn't like the weather here.  He was 14.  She let him.
    >After all, she never raised a hand to him before and now that he
    >is big enough, he scares her and he knows it.  She believes that
    >it is his life to do with what he wants.  Last I heard, he had been
    >arrested for shop lifting, frequenting a whorehouse, and child
    >molesting while baby sitting.  He has done a lot with his life.
    
    I resent your implication that wearing an earring has anything to do 
    with the rest of what this kid's been up to.  My male cousin works
    fulltime, goes to school parttime, is a courteous and wonderful
    person and wears an earring.  My boyfriend who is a consulting software
    engineer and earns 60K wears an earring from time to time.  Your
    stereotype doth not fit.
    
    >The intent isn't to tell an adult participant
    >not to wear an earring, but rather disciplining a child.  There
    >isn't enough discipline anymore.  One of my favorite quips is that
    >if ever I want children, I can simply go to the store and see how
    >the children there act.  That cures the desire.  The best behaved
    >children are the ones who are disciplined.  If you don't discipline
    >your children, you won't be invited to my house and I'll be busy
    >if you call.

    I fail to see how forbidding your son from wearing an earring has
    any bearing on whether your son will be disciplined, respectful,
    etc.  As I stated, I have two *extreme* counterexamples in men I
    of whom I am quite fond.

    	-Ellen

    P.S. Spence, I understand why you have to defend Bill's parenting.
    I'm not taking issue with you about that.  Sounds like he's a fine
    father alright.  I just find some of your connections (whether
    intentional or unintentional) between boys/young men who wear earrings
    and their behavior/discipline to be objectionable.

    
    	Yes, Suzanne is quite right. Believe me, not everyone that lives
    in Colorado is a hick. Gezzz. I thought most hick were in Texass.
    |^)
    
    Todd

    re .115
    >    All I can say is am I ever glad I live in a place where folks are less
    >narrow-minded than in Reagan-loving Colorado!  Is it still okay
    >to beat your wives out there, too?
     
    I'm glad to live in a place where people don't dress like Boy George.
    Your ignorance in the second sentence doesn't deserve a comment.
    
    >    I resent your implication that wearing an earring has anything to do 
    >with the rest of what this kid's been up to.  My male cousin works
    >fulltime, goes to school parttime, is a courteous and wonderful
    >person and wears an earring.  My boyfriend who is a consulting software
    >engineer and earns 60K wears an earring from time to time.  Your
    >stereotype doth not fit.
     
    Are these 2 people adults or children?  There is a huge difference
    between disciplining a child and allowing an adult to make his own
    choice.
    
    >    I fail to see how forbidding your son from wearing an earring has
    >any bearing on whether your son will be disciplined, respectful,
    >etc.  As I stated, I have two *extreme* counterexamples in men I
    >of whom I am quite fond.
    
    If its acceptable in your area, then so be it.  How long did these
    2 men wear earrings as children?
    

    >P.S. Spence, I understand why you have to defend Bill's parenting.
    >I'm not taking issue with you about that.  Sounds like he's a fine
    >father alright.  I just find some of your connections (whether
    >intentional or unintentional) between boys/young men who wear earrings
    >and their behavior/discipline to be objectionable.
    
    I don't have to defend Bill, he's doing pretty good by himself.
    I simply use Bill because I am familiar with his situation.  Had
    I not said anything, he would never have known the difference, in
    fact, he didn't even know my feelings about it until this morning.
    
    In an attempt to clarify the 'connections', if the father says 'no'
    to earrings, then the earrings won't be worn.  That is discipline.
    All boys who wear earrings are not necessarily bad boys.
    
    
    
    I just remembered that the intent of the base note, somewhere WAY
    back there, was how people felt about the issue, not to convince
    anyone that they are a total jerk, whether or not they would allow
    it to happen, or to try and persuade everyone to do it your way.
    Different strokes...  
    
    Summary: I don't like it.  And I'm sorry if it offends you.  I'm
    just glad I don't have to cope with it.  I'm going skiing.
    
    Spence

    The place to enter nationalities is surely the "intro" note.
    
    Moderator

{RE .108} - Pardon me, but I've been to Colorado, and I've noticed punks, hip-
 pies, and - yes - even men wearing earrings walking around.  Neither them nor
  I (in my summer-leisure neo-hippie-with-short-hair garb) nor my SO (with
   her neo-feminist unshaven legs) drew any stares.
    <_Jym_>

    re .119
    
    We agree on one thing - skiing (well, maybe two things - we both
    work for DEC).
    
    I didn't know that the issue was *boys* wearing earrings.  I thought
    this topic was about *males* (boys and men) wearing earrings.  I
    still fail to see how boys wearing earrings has any effect on their
    behavior.  It has still not been proven to me.

    So, an example of a "boy" who wore and earring when I knew him:    
    In high school, I knew a boy who had an earring and he was not part
    of the "rowdy" crowd, he studied, did his homework, made good grades,
    and went on to college.  I think the kid was ahead of his time (it was
    1976) and showed an enormous amount of class and individuality to do
    his own thing when this was not popular (and in a Catholic school!).
    I admired him for it!

       	-Ellen

    re .0
>        I'm curious, how many of you [men] wear an earring?  What do you
>   think of this new fashion statement for men?
  
    These are the original questions.  You are right, the original intent
    was about men wearing earrings.  But, people started attacking male
    parents who wouldn't allow their son to wear them.  In .0, he didn't
    allow his 16 year old BOY to wear one.  My intent was that its wrong
    for a boy to wear one AGAINST HIS PARENTS WILL.  I admit that I
    didn't state that too clearly.  A boy is too young to handle his
    own life responsibly and needs the guidance of a parent.  Whatever
    the parent deems to be responsible will be instilled in the child.
    If the parent thinks that an earring is alright, then its not against
    his will and, therefore, doesn't enter into a discipline problem.
    But, if the parent doesn't like it, then the child shouldn't wear
    it.  In the town that I went to college in, Alamosa, Colorado, the
    cowboys would fight with anyone who was different.  This was a common
    occurance with long hair.  Eventually, it was accepted and now 
    some of the cowboys have long hair.  The same thing happened with
    blacks in Kansas, not with cowboys, but the general population.
    They didn't want blacks in Kansas and didn't allow them to settle
    for more than a day.  Now, there are many blacks in Kansas.  Some
    day, earrings will be accepted, but for now, many of us fight it.
    The 2 big cities, CS and Denver, have a large influx of outsiders,
    especially from Mass., who have a major role in the advancement
    of the culture.  Personally, I grew up in a town where nothing ever
    changes, and I like it that way.  You'll see things in CS and Denver
    that you won't see anywhere else in Colorado, except for some colleges
    that get students from other states.  I may be narrow-minded, but
    that's the way I am.  Men can wear earrings if they wish, but I
    won't accept it.

    Spence

    
    This is the interesting note I've seen yet.  We've gone from men
    wearing earrings to boys wearing earrings to parenthood to
    nationalities.  great note!!! (I mean that).
    
    I stated early that I felt since being a parent I have lost some
    of those liberal views.  I'm thirty now, maybe that has something
    to do with it :-).  But, I find that I've also become a strong critic
    of other parents.  I believe children should be seen, not heard.
    I believe there is still a division of sexes.  Boys do this, girls
    do that.  Notice, I said boys and girls.  Also, in my prior note,
    I said when they can discuss it, we will.  Bill has every right
    to make the roles.  Kids need authority, disclipline (sp?).  If
    you teach the kids right/wrong at an early age then the consequences
    of there discissions later in life should be a thoughtful discission,
    not a rebelling one.
    
    so, where does that leave this 124 reply note?  Well I won't let
    either child, female and male have an earring.  Hey, equal; you
    know!  The tradition is female has earrings, not males.  If my son
    decides he wants an earring, I'll say no.  Will that stop him. 
    If he's like his dad, nope.  He'll go get it.  Will he be in trouble?
    Nope.  But, I haven't talked to his mother about it......(I think
    I'll ask Linda this question when I get home tonight, I'l let you
    all know what's her attitude).
    
    It sure seems that the world is getting more conservative....hey,
    maybe that's what the next generation needs, a little authority.
    What they don't need is dictaorship, just a better role model. 
    Think we'll do alright?  I do.
    
    GOG
    
    ps.  Suzanne....I hope you didn't see the second half!
    

    re .121
>    Pardon me, but I've been to Colorado, and I've noticed punks, hip-
>  pies, and - yes - even men wearing earrings walking around.  Neither them nor
>  I (in my summer-leisure neo-hippie-with-short-hair garb) nor my SO (with
>  her neo-feminist unshaven legs) drew any stares.
 
    In the Air Force, we had a mixture of people from all over the U.S.
    One of our favorite pastimes on night shift was talking about how
    people thought of people from other states, stereo-types and such.
    Some people thought that Coloradoans all ride horses and indians
    still attack trains.  Well, one night, I talked to 2 blacks and
    found that they prefered the South and the East because you didn't
    have to guess what they were thinking, they would come right out
    and tell you what they thought.  They didn't like the West because
    we hide our thoughts and they never knew how we really felt about
    them.  We tend to stare without being obvious about it.  And, unless
    you were raised here, you probably won't understand it.  I don't
    see how some can openly tell someone how you feel.  I was raised
    to hide my feelings.  Because of my military life (10 years), I
    have changed somewhat, but I still hide most of my feelings.  I
    let loose a lot more in NOTES because we aren't face to face.  If
    we ever met face to face, this conversation wouldn't happen.  People
    are very different depending on the culture we are raised in.  I
    am left handed, which is strange in Germany, and I got a lot of
    stares in Germany.  In Japan, men hold hands.  How many of you men
    would hold hands in the U.S. if it became popular?  We in Colorado
    wear cowboy boots.  How many of you in the east wear cowboy boots?
    (Yes, I know, we don't ALL wear cowboy boots)  I think that trends
    start on the coasts and move inland, not vice versa.
    
    There I go, rambling again.
    
    You can't visit a place and make a judgement on it.  And you can't
    judge the feelings of a Coloradoan unless you were raised as one.
    I'm probably just as guilty judging easterners, come to think of
    it.
    
    Next.
    
    Spence
    

{RE .125} - One wonders, then, why somebody wearing an earring would have to
 worry about being beaten up by the locals, since beating somebody up is surely
  expressing one's thoughts and feelings.
   <_Jym_>

    Well, its been one week since my last reply.  During that week,
    I have been sensitized to men wearing earrings and I've been looking
    for them around Colorado Springs.  Please bear in mind that I haven't
    gone out of my way to find them, just observing men during my normal
    routine.  I didn't find a single one in or around the plant where
    I work.  In fact, I didn't see any until Saturday when we went to
    a mall.  I saw 2 teenagers who were dressed in the typical punk
    style and both were wearing earrings.  My thought was that they
    appeared to be rebelling against society, much the same way we did
    when we were teenagers, except that we had tighter reins.  Inside
    the mall, it was pretty crowded.  We saw many teenagers, kids, adults,
    and NONE of them, that I noticed, had earrings on.  Not that it
    was a comprehensive survey, but I would say that the vast majority
    of males that I saw don't wear earrings.  That night, we went to
    a play, a requirement for my wife's class, and I noticed 2 men in
    a corner together, both wearing earrings.  They were obviously gay.
    At least, they seemed obvious to me, they were holding hands and
    making goo-goo eyes at each other, and that seems kinda gay to me.
    Please don't start about gays, I will comment on that in another
    existing note.  Their being gay doesn't bother me, its just an
    observation that they were gay and wearing earrings.  I also noticed
    2 other men wearing earrings, at the play.  They were together and
    each was with his own woman.  I noticed one of them first, in a
    crowd, and I could only see him from the shoulders up.  My first
    impression was that here is a mature man, with a good bit of grey
    hair, roughly about early 30's, moderately long hair but well kept, 
    wearing a small conservative gold ?ball? earring in his right ear lobe.  
    It really didn't look that bad.  I was honestly surprised at my own 
    feelings, it didn't look bad.  It was conservative, not gawdy and I 
    accepted it as nothing.  The man appeared to be a gentleman, well 
    groomed, and easy going.  When his friend arrived, I noticed that he
    	(the first man)
    was dressed a little wierd, by my standards, probably conservative 
    for the coastal areas.  His friend was definitely dressed wierd,
    as was his 'girlfriend' (an assumption).  My wife recognized him
    as being a member of her college class and he normally has his hair
    spiked, punk style.  He did not strike me as being a responsible
    individual.  Again, this is my own personal thought.  He appeared
    to be in his mid to late 20's.  His earring was also a conservative
    style, small ball type, but on his ear, it repulsed me, because
    of the other statements he made with clothing and hair style.  
    
    By these observations (survey?) of mine, I have changed my feelings
    about men wearing earrings.  If the man is otherwise conservative
    and responsible looking, I can overlook the earring as possibly
    just a minor statement.  However, if the man is otherwise repulsive,
    and I consider punk styles to be repulsive, much as our parents
    considered long hair to be, then I find the earring repulsive because
    it is a piece of the total make up of the repulsiveness.  When I
    see a boy wearing an earring, I wonder about his discipline at home.
    
    If you wish to attack my feelings about punk styles, please do it
    in another note.  If it appears here, it won't be answered.
    
    Over the last week, I have seen previews of a movie (I can't remember
    the title) in which Micheal J. Fox wears an earring.  He is neat,
    his hair is conservative and the earring doesn't look bad.  If it
    looked like a fishing lure, then it would be a different story.
    I don't like fishing lures on women's ears either.
    
    One observation I made was that an ear lobe that is pierced but
    doesn't have an earring in it, just the hole, looks funny.
    
    re .126
>  {RE .125} - One wonders, then, why somebody wearing an earring would have to
>worry about being beaten up by the locals, since beating somebody up is surely
>expressing one's thoughts and feelings.

    I didn't mean to say that I condone this behaviour, but if I had
    a son, I would want to protect him from it.  When long hair was
    trying to become popular, how many men received unwanted hair cuts
    on the street?  It wasn't right, but it happened.
    
    I like this note and other notes because they make me think about
    my feelings.  This note, in particular, made me go out and observe
    and, thereby, causing me to realize a side of my feelings that I
    didn't notice before.  If I saw a conservative man wearing an earring,
    I guess I just ignored it because it didn't really mean anything
    to me.  This note caused me to notice all of them, not just the
    repulsive ones that stick in my mind.  I now feel that I have a
    broader sense of the issue.  Someday, the punk styles might grab
    hold and I won't notice them either.  And it still makes me mad
    to be admiring a beautiful blond woman walking away from me to find
    out that the beautiful hair style is on a man with a beard.  Its
    kind of like "Oh god, I've been aroused by a man!!!"
    
    I hope you aren't being bored with my long winded replies and I
    hope I'm not beating a dead horse (or note).  I'm not trying to
    add fuel to the fire, rather to use the fire for a constructive
    purpose.
    
    Spence

        .127: not at all bored by your "long winded" answer.
        Personally, I'd say the best possible goal for a conference
        like this one is to educate people about themselves.  This
        note caused you to look around and consider your feelings
        about the issue.  As far as I'm concerned, you've proved
        that this conference is worthwhile... and I'm glad you told
        us about it.
        
        I could rag you about your perception of "conservative" as being
        good and otherwise being bad... but that would be
        counterproductive, and has nothing to do with this topic, so I
        won't.  A willingness to accept that it is not intrinsically
        bad for a man to wear an earring is about all that can be
        expected here...
        
        	/dave

    >        I could rag you about your perception of "conservative" as being
    >    good and otherwise being bad... 
     
    Very good point, I will ponder this for awhile.  Short, concise,
    and drove the point home.  I like that.
    
    Back to the brain wringer. ;-)
    
    Spence

    
     I looked you up in the intro, Spence. You claim to be old fashioned,
    (did you say narrow minded?). I don't agree with your own perceptions
    of your self. You share many of the same values that I do. I've
    read all your responses since .108 and I see an open minded person.
    You don't accept things cause they're trendy! Neither do I! You
    obviously read the other responses and went on to re-evaluate some
    of your "pre-conceptions". 
     I live in a backwards area of Massachussettes (That's right, there
    ARE rednecks in Mass.) If my son were to announce his desire to
    get an earring, my wife and I would not allow it. Not because of
    our dislike of earrings, rather my son's age. I wouldn't allow a
    daughter of mine to get one at 7 years old either. I would, however
    allow him at the age of 12 or so. I also would tell him what to
    expect from his schoolmates. In my area an earring would be an excuse
    for a fight but If my son was willing to deal with that, fine.
    I would make sure his martial arts skills were adequate or at least
    point out the need for him to get a little more serious about it
    than he is now.
      I not a dictator with my sons but I do demand proper behaviour.
    I control or prohibit certain types of behaviour with my kids in
    regard to age. All my kids have tried the temper tantrum routine
    in stores but never without severe punishment. Yes, I spank!
    Before my wife and I had kids we decided that we would reason with
    them and never raise a hand. We've changed this philosophy a little.
    We never raise a hand in anger, we wait a moment to control our
    anger, then hit! Otherwise we'd have beaten the kids to death on
    a few occasions. We do use reason too. When it works, great! 
      We give our kids freedoms as they prove they can handle them.
    This makes both of us very proud of our sons from time to time.
    It also makes our sons very self-assured. Their not affraid to 
    question my descisions and give their inputs, but not as whinny,
    smart asses. Rather more like little adults sometimes. I have the
    final word and they obey. 
     I could go on and on and probably will in another reply, but for
    now I have to get some work done. I just wanted to let you know
    how I stand as a Dad and as and "eastoner"(actually I'm a New
    Englander)
    
    Rob

I am 6'5", have had an earring for 3 years, am 25 years old, and have 
never had a major problem with it.  In fact, several women have 
approached me and asked that I speak with their boyfriends to try to 
convince them to get an earring also.

Someone told me that earrings are more common on the East coast then 
they are on the West coast.  So, I suppose that it would be more 
daring on the West coast.

All in all, RE: .0, it seems as if you over-reacted to the earring.


						--Gerry

    Re .133, re .8
    
     a lot of football palyers wear nylons (pantyhose) for added warmth
    and for support.
    
    Just ask Broadway Joe!

    
    I suppose the attitude may be different back east.  Maybe not. 
    There are people who wear earrings out here too.  I'm from 
    Tennessee.  I was brought up different.  I don't like to see males
    wear earrings.  It's seems that most of the people that I know
    that do wear earrings, ARE the one's that are into hard rock music,
    and smoking pot.  Some just think it's "cool."
    
    I couldn't see John Wayne or Clint Eastwood, or Muhammad Ali, Bruce
    Jenner, Micky Mantle, John Kennedy, Abe Lincoln, George Washington,
    Daniel Boone, Davy Crockett, Superman, Bruce Lee, or even Elvis
    wear an earring !!!   
    
    That's good enough for me!  If you want your kids to "experiment,"
    fine.  That's up to you.  I don't think it's cool or hip.  I don't
    care in Broadway Joe wears pantyhose or not....
    
    Some of my friends at work wear earrings.  I think they are still
    wondering "who they are" too.  Many men have never grown up past
    their "teen" years either.  This is "my" opinion.  I don't pretend
    to be "so liberated" that I am neutral to everything else.  I believe
    we DO NEED boundaries. A person that don't stand for something,
    will fall for anything.
    
    Please don't flame..... this is just the way I feel.  I'm expressing
    my opinion like you folks did yours.
    
    DB

    I have no problem with *you* not wearing earrings. I think that's
    fine, a matter of taste. What I don't understand is why you don't
    think it's ok for *other* men to wear earrings.
    
    Granted that John Wayne et al. didn't wear earrings, but then not
    every man looks up to John Wayne as a role model. I really don't
    understand what it is you're trying to say, it seems to be partly
    the reasons you don't wear an earring, and that's fine, but it also
    seems to be partly why you don't think *others* should wear them,
    and that's the part I don't understand.
    
    Please do explain further.
    
    	-- Charles

    
    Charlie,
    
    I have no problem with a guy wearing one if HE wants to.  If he
    doesn't mind looking "funny," that is.  I used more than John 
    Wayne as an example.  I know everyone won't look up to Mr. Wayne.
    I do, however, feel we need more "John Wayne" types around. 
    
    I also believe we need boundaries.  We have to draw the line some
    where.  Women are looking more like men, and men are looking more
    like women.  As a parent, I will try and teach my son "his own
    attitude," until he's old enough to tell me to mind my own business.
    
    I just can't see a "man" riding tall in the saddle, with an earring
    dangling from his ear!  To each his own.  This is MY opinion.  I
    exercise my right to express it in these replies....that's all.
    
    Everyone in these replies, for the most part, is trying to be Mr/Ms
    Openmindedness...  Come on people... everybody has some prejudice
    in them.  The person that say's they don't, just ain't telling
    the truth.  No.... that dog won't hunt....
    
    What's next, skirts?  Undies?  Hi-heels?  Lip-stick?
    
    Concerned, but not losing sleep...
    Dwight

    um Dwight, why would a man with a ring in his ear look "funny"?
    I've seen a few, and usually find it quite appropriate to the
    person in question. (One of whom is a Black police officer.)

    re: .135, .137
    
        Please don't take this as a personal attack, I'm just asking
    a few questions to try to understand your point of view.
    
        How does it affect you if other men wear earrings, skirts,
    high-heels, etc?
    
        How would it affect you if there were no boundaries?
    
        Why do we need societal boundaries dictating the way people
    dress?
    
    ASP

Personally, there are styles I don't care for (punk hair cuts, for example),
but that doesn't mean I don't think the person wearing one shouldn't wear
one.  It also doesn't mean that the person wearing one should expect me to
like it or refrain from laughing because I think they look so silly.

I don't understand this talk about "boundaries".  We are talking about 
*style*, not ethics or morals or anything else big and controversial.
We can't legislate style and furthermore, we can't even *talk seriously*
about legislating style (unlike the abortion issue, for example).  You
just can't put "bounds" on style.

To any of you who think today's styles (punk, earrings, whatever) are
so bad, I have to say:  what goes around comes around.  How soon we have
forgotten how our own parents' generation reacted to long hair and beards.
We (and I) are doing the same thing that they did!  But it helps to have
some perspective on this.

And that old argument of "women and men looking more like each other"
was used *20 years ago* when beards and long hair came into style for men.

	-Ellen

    Re: .137
    
    I don't mind if you think I look funny. I do however, prefer to
    be called Charles, I think "Charlie" sounds funny... :-)
    
    Why is important that woman and men not "look like" each other?
    
    	"Everyone in these replies, for the most part, is trying to
	 be Mr/Ms Openmindedness..."
    
    You assume that we aren't *actually* openminded, that we are being
    false or hypocritical? Is it that the attitudes expressed are so
    far from your experience/beliefs that you have a hard time accepting
    that anyone *really* believes all this stuff? Guess what... we do.
    
    	"What's next, skirts?  Undies?  Hi-heels?  Lip-stick?"
    
    Sure, why not?
    
    I don't mind you expressing your opinion and viewpoint here, I like
    it. I hope you don't mind me replying...
    
    	-- Charles

    
    RE:  .138   Reinke
    A black police officer having one doesn't change my mind.
    
    RE:  139  Purmal
    
    Hi.  Of course it doesn't affect me personally.  I think we need
    boundaries to better understand ourselves.  We need discipline.
    
    RE: .140  Ellen
    Hi Ellen.  I certainly understand your point. I have just never
    been one to "rebel" that way.  You know, it has been said that some
    times we have to dress a certain way to gain the respect of some
    of our peers, business associates, etc, and that's how I feel, really.
    It just isn't for me.  I just like that ole, "All American Boy"
    image.  It's important to me.  I accept that other guys might wear
    an earring, or whatever, but "I choose" not to.
    
    RE:  141  Charles
    Hello Charles.  I guess the above replies answered the questions
    you held for me.  I'm just an "old fashioned guy."  But remember,
    now more than ever,..... "it's hip to be square!"
    
    >Why do I think it's important that women and men not "look like"
    >each other ??? 
     
    I think when you see a "person" walk down the street, that you should
    be able to tell, easily, if it's a man or a woman, and not, "it
    looks like a man, no with the long hair and the earring, I think
    it's a girl, but a real ugly girl; nope, I was wrong it's a man,
    but golly, that makeup almost fooled me..  ;-)
                                              
    Dwight

    re: .142
    
        Thanks for the answers to my questions, I do understand your
    point of view better.  I think that we have different 'basic truth'
    sets, and that's why our points of view differ.
    
        I try to view people as people first.  It doesn't matter what
    sex, race, religion, political leaning, they are, they are all people.
    Granted I have trouble doing that, but I do try.
    
        I don't feel that boundaries help me better understand myself.
    I feel that they might make others think they understand me by seeing
    what I look like.  What they understand is the preconception of
    what they think I am like based on my appearance.  To know me and
    understand me is to talk to me.
    
    ASP

    I think a man with an earing is attractive.  I saw a man with 2
    earings, one in each ear, and he looked twice as attractive.  But
    I realize that it's frowned upon in the professional world.  I have
    3 holes in my left ear, 2 in my right, but I don't wear my earings
    to work because I don't think it looks professional.

    

    Re: .142
    
    I have no problem with boundaries as long as there is a good and
    just reason for them.  The problem with a lot of boundaries are they
    are used as barriers to keep certain people in line or out of
    something.
    
    
    JEF

    And there are those of us who feel an androgynous way of dressing
    (cutting your hair, making up your face) makes the person all he
    more attractive and interesting; "I like _you_ and think _you_ are
    attractive.  Your being male (or female, depending on the speaker)
    is nice, your body is nice, But I'm interested in _you_."
    
    Lee

    Some further feelings on the subject:
    
    I think that today, in many regards, we have become to "free," to
    "liberal," and I think it's unhealthy.  We can be so liberal and
    open that anything goes, and while that sounds like a good way to
    be, it can breed some bad results.  We need some structure in our
    lives, some discipline.  We need to have some things defined.  We
    need some boundaries.  If we say to our youth, "go ahead, experiment,
    find yourself, anything goes," then we are asking for trouble.
    
    Some people can't be their on "leaders."  Some people have to be
    told, even forced, to follow certain guidelines.  Children need
    this guidance.  Many teenagers and adults do also.  Without guidelines,
    or boundaries, we are a weak people, and the changes that have taken
    place for the past 20 years are kinda scary.  We can become so liberal,
    that we become socialistic, and then we are easy prey, and we will
    eventually fall.  
    
    What does this have to do with an earring?  This is just one example.
    Our liberal attitudes can be dangerous.  You do have to draw a line
    somewhere.  I'm opposed to guys dressing like women, women dressing
    like men, etc.  I'm opposed to "any attitude," no matter how liberal
    and "just" that it may seem, if I see it as a potential threat to
    ourselves, our nation, and our freedom.
                      
    Old fashioned?  Yea.  Sexist?  Maybe.  Square?  Probably.  Concerned?
    You bet.  Liberal?  Hell No!  
    
    Dwight
    

    I would appreciate enlightenment regarding the previous reply.
    
    Why do you believe that men wearing womens clothes, women wearing
    mens clothes, men wearing earings etc. is sign of being "too liberal"
    or "too free"?   How will this cause a country to "fall"?  
    
    How would you prevent an individual from expressing his/her
    individuality in a way which may be objectionable to you?  Would you
    introduce new laws to ensure people conform to your ideal?
    
    How many times within this conference have people said "It's not
    what's on the outside that counts".   Perhaps you need to learn
    to hold less fear in your world.
    
    

    Why is it that a man who wears an earing crosses the female boundaries?
    The pirates wore them, and nobody thought they were effeminate (or
    at least told them to their face).  An earing is jewelry, just like
    a gold chain around the neck, gold decals on the teeth, it's all
    an enhancement.  Just because we in the USA are used to only women
    wearing earings does not mean it is that way around the world. 
    
    Women wear pants now, cut their hair short, things that used to be 
    considered male are accepted now.  In time we'll forget that the
    earing is just for women.
    

    
    RE: .148
    
    We need restrictions.  That's why we have laws.  We shouldn't need
    laws.  Everyone "should" have their act together, like yourself.
    We shouldn't need a goverment restricting us.  The whole world should
    have "your" point of view.  It's a nice thought.  Maybe heaven will
    be like that.  We shouldn't make people in the military wear those
    silly uniforms, or cut their hair, and polish their shoes.  An army
    without discipline will fail.  A business without discipline will
    fail.  A family without discipline will fail.  An individual without
    discipline will fail. A country without discipline, WILL HAVE
    discipline, dictated by  communists....
    
    What's on the inside, certainly counts.  What's on the outside,
    can't be ignored.
    
    It has nothing to do with "fear."  I certainly don't fear any man,
    especially, one with an earring or wearing other womens fashions.
    
    Perhaps you need to learn some "discipline" in your world.
    
    RE:  149
    I never met any pirates.  They may have been involved in homosexual
    acts on those ships too, but that doesn't make it acceptable.  And,
    I would have told them to their face!  
    
    Some women may wear pants now, cut their hair short, and look like men.
    Not to appealing, I must say.  But, that's another story.
    
    Dwight
    

	Discipline is never an end in itself, only a means to an end.

    re .150:

    I won't be the one to flame you on your attitude about homosexuals,
    but I sure do hope that someone does. 
    
    I just *knew* EARRINGS were the cause of ....
    
    	... COMMUNISM !!
    
    :-) :-) :-)  (shorthand for much laughter)
    
    	-Ellen

    Re: .150
    
    Let me see if I understand what you're trying to say.
    
       Antisocial behaviour must be regulated for the good of the people,
       as a whole. That if antisocial behaviour is tolerated or encouraged
       then that society is doomed to be replaced with one that DOES
       regulate antisocial behaviour. The actions of the few can and must
       be regulated for the good of the many. 
    
    Guess what. We're in violent agreement about this part.
    
    It seems to me that you are some further things.
    
       Effeminate dress and behaviour by men, and masculine dress and
       behaviour by women is antisocial (not in the best interest of
       society as a whole) and should be discouraged, perhaps regulated.
       
    I disagree, but you seem to be saying some more.
    
       Effeminate dress and behaviour in men is a sign of weakness,
       and of inability or unwillingness to use force to defend those
       things that deserve defending, that effeminate or androgynous
       men are cowards.
    
    You imply that homosexuality is not acceptable.
    
    You find that women that wear pants, have short hair, and "look
    like men" are not appealing.
    
    Do I understand you correctly?
    
    	-- Charles

    
    RE: .150 (Dwight)

    >  Some women may wear pants now, cut their hair short, and look like
    men. Not to appealing, I must say.  But, that's another story.  < 


Oh I see.  Men in women's' clothing is totally unacceptable, but women in
men's clothing is only "not too appealing."

That hound don't hunt.


Frankly, I think nothing looks worse than a man in a dress; a dress just
doesn't "fall" right on a man's body.  It nearly always looks absurd.  The
same is true for make-up: it takes away the angularity of a man's face and
he just winds up looking silly.  But hey, this is America and people should
be free to wear whatever they want.

BTW: I don't like women in pants for the same reason....I think it looks
awful.  

And there isn't a woman on this planet that a little make-up can't improve.
~/~


I'd really like you to elaborate on your opinion of homosexuality.  But
if you do, I hope you like barbecue!

John M.

    re: .154
    
    > Frankly, I think nothing looks worse than a man in a dress; a dress just
    > doesn't "fall" right on a man's body.  It nearly always looks absurd.
    
    You just don't know where to shop ;-)

    
    RE: .152
    Hi Ellen.  Glad you had a good laugh.  Sorry you lack foresight.
    
    RE: .153
    Hello Charles.  I don't believe we can or will regulate the way
    people dress, after all, that's one of our freedoms.  But yes, you
    understand my points, very well.  I'm just worried about where we
    are headed.  
    
    RE: 154
    What's happening, John?!?  John, I don't like women in men's wear
    either, that is, pants.  I won't comment on your statement about
    makeup.  :-o)
    
    Dwight

    re .156:
    
    You think I lack foresight?  Could you quote me exactly what I have
    written here that leads you to believe I lack foresight?  And when
    you have done that, please go on to PROVE it.  If you can't, then
    stop the personal insults, or at least qualify them with "my opinion
    is..." or "I believe that..."

    	-Ellen

    Re: .156 (ref .153)
    
    Sigh. I'll try to keep the flames mild. At least we understand the
    basis of our disagreement.
    
    *Why* is effeminate behaviour by men or masculine behaviour by women
    anti-social? What is the *social* cost? What is the harm? The only
    tangible claim you've made is that effeminate men are weak and
    cowardly. I challenge you to prove, or even support this wild
    assertion. Futhermore, how do "masculine" woment undermine society?
    If anything, by your reasoning, they should strengthen it. If society
    is losing something valuable by the actions of these women, is it
    not balanced by the actions of the effeminate men? Is the sex of
    the person with the attribute really essential? If so, why?
    
    Digital Equipment Corporation (a "society" in my view) has an official
    position on homosexuality. It is part of it's "Valuing Differences
    Policy" (I suggest you look it up.) Your statements and positions
    on this subject are explicitly against corporate policy, and thus
    are anti-social. Rejection of homosexuality is by no means universal
    in our society, and acceptance of androgyny is widespread. I would
    suggest that your attitude is parochial and uninformed, and that
    you are out of touch with the true wants and needs of the society
    you belong to.
    
    The kind of automatic and unthinking agression you've exhibited
    ("I'm not afraid of any man") are classic symptoms of "macho". The
    "macho" attitude, if left unchecked, causes irrational agression,
    mob violence, and eventually war. Our society can no longer afford
    such displays, your attitude is archaic, irrational, and yes,
    anti-social. Your behaviour and expression should be regulated,
    for your own good.
    
    You should learn to discipline your thoughts and mouth. It'd get
    you into less trouble. One component of discipline is self control...
    
    	-- Charles

    
    RE: .156
    Ellen, go back and read your note, .150.  I think you understand.
    ;-)
    
    RE: .156
    My good friend, Charles.  I expressed "my views" on this topic,
    just as everyone else has expressed "theirs."  YOU jumped on me
    for doing that, which I reguard as anti-social.  No big deal.  I
    expected that.  ;-)  
    
    I explained my reasons rather well.  I'm sure most readers know
    what I was saying.  I know how most of the people discussing this topic
    feels, and I know that this is not the opinion of the entire
    United States, thank God.  You are opposed to me and put me down
    for my beliefs.  That too, is a "form" of discrimating.  Again,
    it was expected.  
    
    I'm not saying that "this is this" or "that is that" in reguards
    to effeminate men, I know how it is preceived though, after all,
    Michael Jackson is a good looking guy, and he can sing, but he ain't
    the most masculine guy in the world !!!  Being masculine or being
    feminine DOES, and SHOULD mean something.  What's your problem with
    being "macho" anyway.  Why are you getting so upset?  Have you ever
    noticed there ain't many butterflies any more?  
    You should be in politics, really.
                                                    
    Have a nice day charles....
    * Dwight *
    

    re .159
    
    >RE: .156
    >Ellen, go back and read your note, .150.  I think you understand.
    >;-)
    
    Your thinking that I understand does not make me understand.  I do
    not understand.  I will ask again.  Could you quote me exactly
    what I have written here that leads you to believe I lack foresight?
    And when you have done that, please go on to PROVE it.  I'm not
    going to let you get out of making wild generalizations about me
    and then brushing them aside when I ask for an explanation.
    
    I really prefer to leave personal backgrounds out of disagreements
    like this, and out of NOTES in general, but just for the record --
    my boyfriend wears an earring once in a while (special occasions).
    He's had his ears pierced for > 10 years.  It's *real* news to *me*
    that he's not masculine.  Perhaps you'd like to tell him that youself,
    but be forewarned - he was 1982 Massachusetts state pistol champion.
    
    re .160:
    
    Hi, Bob :-)

    	-Ellen
    

    re: .159  Dwight,
    
        I think that the reason that you are getting so many notes that
    you feel to be attacks on you or your beliefs is because people
    are trying to understand your beliefs.  Charles has been asking
    for arguements to prove the validity  of your beliefs.  I'm also
    interested in why you believe what you believe.
    
        I'm one of the people that believes that the way people choose
    to present themselves doesn't affect the stability of a society.
    I'm trying to find out how you think people cross dressing would
    make the society weaker.
    
        You answered a question I had by stating that men derssing like
    women didn't affect you directly, I appreciate your answer.  I'd
    like to hear some of the reasons for your opinions.
    
        You stated that you are opposed to any attitude no matter how
    liberal and just that it may seem if you see it as a potential threat
    to ourselves, our nation, and our freedom.  Why do men wearing
    earrings, or wearing women's clothing pose a threat?
    
    ASP

    Re (regulating dress)
    
    But we as a society *do* regulate dress, and the regulations are
    different for men and women.  You would be arrested for walking
    down the street au natural, and women cannot go without a shirt,
    but men can for very informal events (backyard barbequeues, and
    such).  At times in the past there were other dress codes.  Schools
    can mandate dress codes for their students, as any Catholic school
    graduate can tell you.  I suppose that it could be made illegal
    to cross-dress, although I disagree that a woman in pants is
    cross-dressing - I think she is being practical.
    
    Elizabeth

    Dwight,
    
    I wanted to take time to compose this reply carefully and thoughtfully
    and not flame at you. Some of your beliefs make me angry, angry
    because they frighten me. Unlike you, I *am* afraid of some men,
    men that would hurt or kill me because I wear an earring, or wear
    makeup, or show my love for my male friends by hugging them in public.
    I don't understand why some people want to hurt or kill me for such
    things, and if something I don't understand threatens me, yes I'm
    afraid.
    
    *I* think it's ok to be afraid. I'm afraid of those who will not
    admit their fear, because rather than admit to being afraid they
    will strike out.
    
    When you say that "What's on the outside, can't be ignored." I 
    hear that you place a great deal of importance on appearances. That
    how something or someone appears reflects some essential thing about
    how they really are. I agree, but I ask you, what does an earring
    say about someone? I personally know a great many earring wearing
    men that don't fit the image you are describing. I believe that
    an earring on a man shows a certain rebelliousness against cultural
    norms, and in me, a desire to be judged for what I *am* rather than
    how I *seem*.
    
    I believe in the value of discipline, but discipline comes in many many
    forms. Zen Buddhists for example are some of the most disciplined
    people I know. The "communists" you seem to fear are also very
    disciplined. There is nothing inherently good or evil in discipline,
    but I suspect it because I see a the risk of a certain relinquishing of
    pesonal responsibility in any discipline. To me discipline always
    requires a certain dimishment of "self". When I look at the lesson
    of history about what happens when a society gives up individualism
    to achieve uniformity of collective action I shudder. I treasure
    liberty and personal freedom, and I rejoice that the founders of
    our society worked so hard to guarantee so much personal freedom.
    
    [As for the attrativeness of "mannish" women, well that's a matter
    of personal taste. I personally find plump, strong, women attractive.
    I also like the color blue.]
    
    [I have to go now. I'll try to continue this in a bit.]
    
    	In sisterhood,
    	-- Charles

    
    RE: .161
    
    Ellen, maybe you should re-read my statements.  I don't know how
    to make things much plainer.....
    
    As for threatening me with your "boyfriend" and his being a state
    pistol champion, that is the kind of stuff that should scare Charles,
    and hey Charles, this guy wears an earring....
    
    In response to him possibly shooting me, Ellen, I hope his pistol
    doesn't mis-fire.  I'm a 2nd degree black belt, and I have boxed
    for several years.  I was the #1 middleweight karate champion in
    the Rocky Mountain Region, when I was competing.  I can't stop a
    bullet, but I can stop what squeezes the triger.... 8-)
    
    RE:  .162   PURMAL
    
    Other people stated that they didn't mind the earring wearing, by
    males....I simply stated that I do and I did explain why.  It's
    the symbol, like many others, the type of protest, that I object
    to.  My opinions are "mine."  I don't like people that beat on little
    kids, or people that kick puppies, or short summers..... Me not
    liking for males to wear earrings is just one of the things that
    I don't care for.  8-)
    
    RE:  .164
    
    Charles, I don't know of any one that has been killed for wearing
    an earring or makeup.  I might laugh at such a sight, but I would
    never kill for such a silly act!!!!  8-)
    
    Yea, it's fine to be afraid.  No problem with that.  I'm afraid
    of where this nation might be heading, but not males wearing earrings.
    Again, it's the "act" of expressing a rebelling attitude that scares
    me.  Some say, let me shoot up my veins with drugs, it's my body.
    It's my right.  As long as I don't hurt someone else, back off.
    I still believe someone should step in and stop this individual
    from doing this, even if it's a friend, the police, or the government,
    using whatever force is needed.  We can't always run around like
    a bunch of wild animals, out of control, doing our own thing....
    
    I do put a lot of importance on appearances.  The way a person looks
    does tell a story, with some people, a hell of a story.  An earring
    on males won't bother everybody.  I know that.  But it will carry
    negative feelings to a lot of other folks.  Maybe that's good, maybe
    not.  But if a person wears an earring, he has to expect some of
    that.  Maybe a lot in some areas, like the old south, which is where
    I am from.
    
    We both agree that freedom is a great thing.  But even freedom has
    it's boundaries, even here at home.  We can't ever be "totally"
    free.  We enjoy limited freedom, but I can live with that.  I still
    consider "us" head and shoulders above the rest.....
    
    Sincerely, Dwight

    re: .163
    
        I know that we do regulate the way people dress, but why do
    people think that it is necessary to do so?  I can find no reason
    for regulating what people wear unless there is a danger to others
    because of the clothing.  I wouldn't allow the wearing of clothing
    decorated by long sharp spikes in public due to the potential danger
    to others.
    
    re: .166
    
        O.K., let me tell you what I think that you are saying.  I think
    that you are saying that men wearing earrings is just one symptom
    of a trend which you feel is dangerous to society.  Is that right?
    
        If so, then assume that you exist in a perfect society (your
    definition of perfect).  Now assume that men start wearing earrings.
    How does this act threaten your society?
    
        Of course the question above has no value if what I think that
    you are saying is incorrect.  If so please try to get through to
    me and explain what you are saying.  I'm afraid that I've missed
    your message.
    
    P.S.  Please don't consider this goading, I am honestly trying to
    understand your opinion.
    
    ASP

	re .166:
		
>    Again, it's the "act" of expressing a rebelling attitude that scares
>    me.

	Why? You express concern about preserving our freedoms and
	stopping Communism, but a "rebellious attitude" is much more
	consistent with American history and culture than it is with
	Communism. Our Founding Fathers certainly expressed a
	rebelling attitude towards the prevailing attitudes of their
	time.
	
	As far as discipline and fear of Communism go, your brand of
	"discipline" (blind adherance to prevailing social attitudes,
	"do what you're told" mentality) would prepare America for
	subjugation a lot quicker than a "do your own thing"
	mentality. Rebelliousness is a fundamental part of the
	vitality that makes the United States such a great nation. You
	shouldn't fear it - although it may sometimes take forms that
	disturb you, it is the most reliable sign that our freedoms
	are still being preserved.
	
	Mike

    re .166:
    
    The only reason I brought my boyfriend's background into this
    discussion is to try to prove to you that men who wear earrings
    do not always match the stereotype you have in your mind.  Far
    from looking effeminate, he looks very masculine and I am sure
    that you would think so too if you saw him.  I did not really wish
    to bring this in here because I think you should just as readily
    tolerate (note that "tolerate" does mean you have to personally LIKE
    it) men who *do* fit your stereotype.
    
    I would still appreciate an explanation or an apology from you for
    calling me short-sighted.  I have re-read your statements.  Perhaps
    you could qualify this?  Do you think I short-sighted about everything?
    That would be a very stupid comment since you do not know me.  Do
    you think I am short-sighted about men wearing earrings?  That is
    not true since I seem to have more direct experience with males
    who wear earrings than you seem to (a male cousin of mine also wears
    one).  So, I am trying to understand what you mean by my being
    shortsighted in terms of men wearing earrings.

    FLAME ON!
    
    So, I'll ask a third time: *WHY* am I shortsighted, Dwight?  Telling
    me that you can't "make things much plainer" does *not* make it plain.
    All you are doing is using a tactic that places the "blame" for my
    not understanding you on me.  You have to communicate to me if you
    want me to know.  But what I really suspect is that you made that
    statement in order to deflect us from the real discussion.  Namecalling
    is another tactic designed to do that.  I'm calling your tactics for
    what they are - it's called *bullying*.
    
    Maybe you won't explain yourself because you *have* no proof that
    I am short-sighted.  In that case, you OWE me an apology!
    
    C'mon - what's the deal and why won't you answer my question?
    
    	-Ellen

    <--(.166)
    
    Hi Dwight...
    
    I probably shouldn't chime in like this out of the blue, but your
    position and arguments intrigue me.
    
    Before I get started, though, I would wish to chide you gently for
    "misunderstanding" Ellen's comment about her friend being a former
    pistol champion:  it seems disingenuous of you.  I'm sure you're very
    aware that skill with firearms is traditionally regarded as a measure
    of masculinity, and I'm also sure that Ellen meant her comment in that
    light, not as a jesting threat that her friend might shoot you.
    
    What *I* hear you saying is that your beliefs are *your* beliefs, that
    you are as entitled to them as anyone else is to their own, and you
    don't see the need for justifying them to anyone.  If I've
    characterised your position correctly, then I can only say that I fully
    agree:  they are, you are, and you needn't. 
    
    But even so, I wonder what you would say about the masculinity or lack
    thereof displayed by the men of, for example, Scotland. 
    
    How do you evaluate someone who, when in traditional formal attire,
    wears lace at throat and wrists, various jewelled pins and brooches, a
    nether garment very like a skirt, a purse and a broadsword slung from
    his belt, and carries a dagger in his stocking?  Men like that play
    games where they see how accurately they can lift-and-toss an 18-foot
    length of telephone pole end-over-end. Their grandfathers were called
    "The Ladies From Hell" by the German troops in WWI (who were no sissies
    themselves), and _their_ ancestors were cheered by the american troops
    defending New Orleans during the War of 1812 because they never wavered
    as they marched behind the war-pipes right up to the fortifications
    and, when they found they couldn't take the american positions because
    there weren't enough of them left alive, turned around and marched away
    again to the music of the one piper left alive. 
    
    So: lace and broadswords, jewellery and physical prowess.  How do you
    evaluate that?  Sounds to me as though maybe there's something else
    going on that can't be accounted for in any simple way. 
    
    						=maggie

    Hah!  I didn't realise Ellen was writing too.
    
    Ellen's right, Dwight, you haven't explained.  And I agree with
    her that you need to.  I'd rather you got that out of the way before
    you attempt to respond to my preceding note; it'll clear the air.
    
    						=maggie

    
    GREETINGS
    
    RE: .163  Purmal
    
    Right.  It's just one example.  As for pretending to live in a
    perfect society, I can't pretend that.  I know that it will never
    happen.
    
    It's a "nice thought" that we should all live and let live, and
    let everybody go "bananas," but that's totally unrealistic.  Why
    don't we do away with Mens and Womens departments and just mix all
    clothes in the stores, have the bras with what use to be, guys pants,
    put panty hose with what use to be, men's oxfords, etc.  Put all
    women's makeup with the guys stuff too.  We don't care what our
    neighbors are doing next door, even though they think they are
    vampires, and they suck a pint of blood out of each other's neck
    every other day, that's ok, cuz they are behind closed doors and
    it ain't our business.  Besides, they "get off" on it.  
    
    I don't won't to live in that kind of a "perfect world."  
    
    You can set a trend, and reinforce it by pretending it's ok, and
    it gradually catches on, starting with the youth, teenagers, and
    then young adults, and the weak minded, after all, some people will
    buy off on anything, and need special guidance.  
    
    Thus, society, which set the standards and guidelines in which we
    have been living, gradually loses hold, because if you let a trend
    start and suggest that it's ok, at least for others, it catches
    on and the young and weak crowd are sucked into the trend.  Society,
    which was strong, now becomes weak, and gradually will fall.  A
    bull is a strong animal, certainly.  A coyote is small and much
    weaker.  But, put a pack of coyotes around the bull, and they will
    eventually bring him down.  
    
    People with earrings, alone, showing their rebellious anger and
    attitudes, will not do this by themselves.  But couple these "acts"
    with others and it will happen.  The Russians, according to my Air
    Force classes, claim that American will fall from within.  No need
    to worry about a physical attack.  It will never happen.  They want
    our youth, and eventually, as the youth grow into adults, and pass
    on their beliefs to their young, with drugs, discontent, etc, the
    soviets will take us without firing a shot.  With all our "liberal"
    attitudes, we are already destroying ourselves.  The divorce rate
    is 53%... that's every other house you drive by in any city in America.
    We don't know who we are.... We have to "find" ourselves... 
    
    Yea, I worry about our future.  In a world where "anything" goes,
    we'll have no future.  It is a nice thought, but unrealistic...
    
    RE: .170
    
    Hi Maggie...
    You're right.  I was originally just giving "my" opinion, just as
    everyone else was,  and I don't see what I have to break it down
    for Tom, Dick, and Harry.  No one else was asked to.  
    
    I don't evaluate the Scottish, or other cultures.  That's a different
    story.  I won't take on the world at this point.  I'm concerned
    with "home."
    
    Some people where bones thru their nose, and I'm opposed to that
    too....
    
    Dwight

        RE: .back a couple...
        
        Brings back  a long-standing question I have - why is it that
        whenever I wear  my  kilt  anywhere  outside  Scotland  I get
        harassed by women wanting  to  know  what's  worn  (or isn't)
        underneath?
        
        Andy.
        
        PS.

        Nothing's worn - it's all  in good working order - ask Sandy!
        ;*)

    re: Andy
    
    You call that harassment?  For my part it would be "welcome curiosity".
    I'd just tell the kind ladies to 'ave a look themselves. :^)
    
    re: Dwight
    
    Shame on you Dwight, causing all this ruckus in here.  A good macho
    spanking is in order. |^) |^) |^)
    

    Sherm_ex_earing_wearer_ex_Tae_Kwon_Do_practitioner_ex_Air_Force_up-to-date_

    lady_chaser_and_your_current_working_partner_sharing_the_night_together_
    
    har_har_har.
    
    Come to think of it, I got you for more nights than your fiancee.
     :^) :^) :^) :^) :^) :^) :^) :^) :^) :^) :^) :^) :^) :^) :^) :^)
   
    
    
    
    

    Nice dodge, Dwight :-)
    
    						=maggie

    
    RE:  .175  maggie
    
    Is this what you are *interested* in???
    (the below commets)
    
    RE: .169   Ellen
    
    When I said I was sorry you lacked foresight, it was to you response
    from your note, (.152).  I had entered "my" opinion on the subject
    like many others.  You, sarcastically, made fun of my opinions,
    and you have only been responding to the single topic, "earrings",
    referring to a cop wearing one, your boyfriend, the pistol champion,
    wearing one, etc, and failing to see, that which I have commented
    on so much, "the act" and what it represents, and where these acts
    and attitudes will take us in the future.  I don't care so much
    about "your boyfriend" wearing earrings, pantyhose, makeup, etc,
    but it's the reasons involved, being anti-social, fighting society,
    rebelling, etc.
    
    I was making a statement of facts, (my opinions), and you came back
    making light of them, and me.  If anyone is deserving of an apology,
    it's me.  I really hope that you can understand, FINALLY, what I
    am saying.  You have a right to express your feelings Ellen, but
    so do the rest of us, and we should be able to do this without 
    someone putting us down for "our feelings" and laughing at us for
    "our" beliefs.
    
    Sincerely, Dwight

    <--(.176)
    
    In part, Dwight, yes.  I was also ribbing you for dodging my
    question about evaluating the putative connection between dress and
    certain character traits.  Your latest answer also clarifies for me
    part of your thinking on that issue, too. 
    
    If I understand you correctly, then, you object to (for example) men
    wearing earrings because of what it says to you about their social
    attitude.  You consider that any man who will wear an earring is
    someone who really doesn't care about our society and its
    traditional values.  Or at least doesn't care enough about them to
    resist other changes (maybe imposed from the outside) that will
    cause our social system to vanish. 
    
    Is that a fair and accurate summary of your views, do you think?
    
    						=maggie

	Dwight, you've said it's not the earrings per se but
	"rebellious attitudes" that concern you. Can you explain why
	you think conformity is better than individuality? Do you
	really believe that an unrebellious nation of conformers can
	resist the dangers of Communism better than a nation of
	individuals who know how to think for themselves, act for
	themselves, and fight against those who would take their
	freedom to do so away?
	
	And you've avoided addressing my note .168. To paraphrase my
	point there, how do you reconcile your strong belief in
	conformity and desire for freedom with the history of the
	United States, a hotbed of rebelliousness and non-conformity
	(and not coincidentally a hotbed of freedom as well) if there
	ever was one?
	
	Mike

    re: .172
    
    Dwight,
    
        Thank you for the explaination, that is what I was after.  I
    now understand your views, even if I don't agree with them.  We
    just have a different set of basic beliefs and those lead us to
    disagree on various issues.
    
    ASP

        I just entered a basenote in the PHILOSOPHY conference asking
    for notes on the importance of boundaries and roles in a society.
    If you wish to take part in the discussion you can hit KP7 to add
    the conference to your notebook.  The basenote is 73.0.
    
    ASP

    re .176:
    
    Well, Dwight, you're right.  I kind of regretted entering such a
    flaming reply last night because I did remember afterwards that the
    original reply I entered was making light of your reply, nothing very
    serious there and I guess there was not much of a reason to take
    offense at your reply to it.  Anyway, I appreciate your answer.
    
    I, too, like someone else has asked would like to know this - do
    you *really* think that every man who wears an earring has a rebellious
    attitude and pent-up anger?  If so, you are *wrong*, *wrong*, *wrong*!
    As I have stated before, my boyfriend does not fit your stereotype!
    *Please* learn not to apply stereotypes to everyone!  They don't
    always fit and they can offend people, like me, in this case.
    
    It's also not that I disagree with your quite serious assessment
    that "a nation weakening from within can fall prey to communism".
    It's the "what" that it takes to weaken a nation that we disagree
    on.
    
    As I also pointed out before, these *same* arguments were made
    20 years ago about long-haired men.  And what has happened since
    then?  The hippies have all grown up into engineers, lawyers, doctors,
    accountants, and other professionals.  In short, they have accepted
    the principles of their parents and this nation, as a whole.  I predict
    that the same thing will happen to today's kids sporting punk styles
    in the years to come.  It seems we're both saying "history repeats
    itself", but we are each seeing different outcomes.

    	-Ellen

    Gee, I think earrings are pretty (tho I don't have any due to an
    aversion to making new holes in _my_ bod).  They look pretty on
    men (with or without yummy bulging muscles), they look pretty on
    women.  They are merely an adornment.
    
    I like long hair on some people: it looks and feels wonderful. 
    FYI, Charles Haynes has probably the nicest hair I've ever seen
    on a man, and I am jealous that _my_ hair doesn't look that pretty
    when it gets long.  What's wrong with that?  Is it an "abomination"?
    Both men and women's hair grows.  Why is it right/natural for men
    to cut it off and women to keep it?  Why is it right/natural for
    women to remove the hair from the rest of their bodies and not men?
    If I think my legs look prettier with hair on them, is it an act
    of rebellion for me to leave the hair on them?  If I think the hair
    feels much nicer than razor stubble, am I rejecting societal values
    and thus undermining our society by not shaving?
    
    I think for all the flak I get about it, that it is not worth using
    hairy legs to "object" to _anything_; it just is too much effort
    about a stupid thing.  The why's of not shaving, I listed above:
    I think my legs are nicer with hair than without, and it's not worth
    the effort to keep them shaved, looking and feeling icky.
    
    I like short hair on some people.  Mine is sort of crew-cut right
    now.  My head looks a little like a Q-tip when I get out of the
    hair dresser.  It looks nicer that way than it does long, as the
    hair on my head is nothing to brag about.  The short hair is easier
    to take care of, and it is SOOOOO soft: I love to have my head rubbed,
    and there seem to be plenty of people who like to oblige me.
    
    You might look at me and think I wish I was a man, but that is not
    true.  I think my bod's great, thanks, and I wouldn't be one of
    youse guys for all the tea in China.
    
    Diff'rent strokes I guess, but I find it rather hurtful to be accused
    (indirectly of course) of being one of those responsible for the
    future downfall of America and morality.  I have my morals, thanks,
    and I doubt that they are any less absolute or "right" than yours.
    I live my beliefs, and like you, feel that someone who does what
    I consider to be morally wrong is doing a shameful thing.  I would
    suggest that the priorities you set in deciding for yourself whether
    someone's actions render them immoral/amoral are a little messed
    up.
    
    Yes, opinions are opinions, morals are morals, both of these are
    personal, but most of those who seem to you to say "live and let
    live" feel that way up to a point, the point where their morals
    kick in.  Is a person who is a living communist worse off than a
    dead republican?  I don't think so.  Is a society which represses
    beauty (an earring on a man) better off than one which
    allows/encourages it?  I think not.  
    
    For me, freedom of expression is more important than uniformity
    if that uniformity must be enforced with oppressive tactics.  However
    living is better than being dead even if that means I must live
    in an oppressive society where I am not free.  Some morals are more
    important than others, so I set priorities.
    
    Lee

    re .182:
    
    >re .181
    >Next time *you* make a blanket assumption that offends...
    
    Bob, please show me where I have done this.  Post it here.
    I am willing to learn from past mistakes if you point them out.
    But I have no chance to respond to a general accusation without
    an example.
    
    But maybe is this just another one of your tactics at blanket,
    general character defamation?  Good try, but I'm not falling for it
    this time.  Yawn.  Maybe you can come up with something better next time.
    
    (Actually, Bob, it's just *you* I like to dredge up dirt on, but
    if it makes you feel better to consider it an evil-minded plot
    against all men on my part, then go ahead and think so.
        
    	-Ellen

 RE 30.158

    I like Dwight am what you would refer to as a traditional type person.
    This has come to be based on my upbringing, environment and experience
    during my lifetime up until now. It disturbs me greatly to see you 
    attack a person that has views that differ from yours, but then again 
    this is soapbox. Dwight has just as much right to object to and view as
    wrong, as the person has that wears a earring or is a homosexual.
    So where do you get off telling him or anyone else for that matter
    that they dont have that right. FWIW no I dont beleave men should
    ware earrings nor do I beleave that homosexualty is right eather,
    but each person does have the right to do and be what they wish,
    as long as its not shoved down the throuht of another.
    
     FLAME ON 
    
>    Digital Equipment Corporation (a "society" in my view) has an official
>    position on homosexuality. It is part of it's "Valuing Differences
>    Policy" (I suggest you look it up.) Your statements and positions
>    on this subject are explicitly against corporate policy, and thus
>    are anti-social.
   
     By your definition !!! Digital embodied by all its employees does not
     represent society as a whole. What your implying here is that it is
     necessary for one to openly accept homosexuality as right and 
     accecptable in order to work for DEC.  WRONG !!!!  What the policy
     calls for is that you be tolerant of anothers feelings and beliefs
     and not be prejudice in dealings with them on account of it. 
     Tolerating is a lot different from accecpting. 

     I can be tolerant of another person, work and deal with that person 
     on a professional level at work and other functions. What they do outside 
     of work and in private is their own business, as long as that person(s)
     docent infringe their beliefs on me or others.  BUT to be regulated
     into accecpting that persons private lifestyle and personal beliefs
     is wrong and I wont do it. Neither you or any company has the right to
     force me to accept what I believe to be wrong as right. Society and DEC 
     does however, have the right to ask that we all be tolerant of each other.
  

>                   Rejection of homosexuality is by no means universal
>    in our society, and acceptance of androgyny is widespread. I would
>    suggest that your attitude is parochial and uninformed, and that
>    you are out of touch with the true wants and needs of the society
>    you belong to.

     Again WRONG, People in society will gravitate into social circles
     of people that think and believe in the same values and ideas. 
     What you are saying is that unless he or anyone like him believes
     in what you say is right, he (they) are not socially acceptable.
     I am quite willing to believe that there is an awfully lot of people
     in this world that dont see it the way you do. Because you wish to be 
     more open and accecpting of things in this world DOES NOT mean that
     I or anyone else has to accept these things. By your standards you
     could go out and start shooting people and because you believe it to be
     right all the rest of us are expected to go along with it.
    
  >  The kind of automatic and unthinking aggression you've exhibited
  >  ("I'm not afraid of any man") are classic symptoms of "macho". The
  >  "macho" attitude, if left unchecked, causes irrational aggression,
  >  mob violence, and eventually war. Our society can no longer afford
  >  such displays, your attitude is archaic, irrational, and yes,
  >  anti-social. Your behavior and expression should be regulated,
  >  for your own good.

    Again we have "your standards" based on "your interpatation". A "macho"
    statement ? debatable.  Ill make the same statement, Iam not afraid of any 
    man. Now Ill define it for you and your narrow viewpoint of understanding.
    It means that I dont worry about anyones color, creed, religious 
    or sexual preference. None of these things are by themselves or 
    combined causes me reason to fear physical or mental harm. BUT
    When any one person or group of persons try to force down my through 
    to accept what I believe to be wrong your rights just stopped and mine 
    begin. It equates to your right to swing at me ends short of my nose
    unless you willing to receive the same in return.
 
    The second definition is that I will not allow myself to be bullied,
    coerced nor intimatated by anyone. If you wish to change my opinion
    you do so by presenting me with the facts and not just opinion.
    If you wish my respect you must earn it not just expect it.
    
   > You should learn to discipline your thoughts and mouth. It'd get
   > you into less trouble. One component of discipline is self control...
    
   >  	-- Charles

     Well excuse me I didn't know that DEC suddenly became Russia and that
     freedom of thought and speech were now prohibited by company policy.
     Its going to take a lot more than you or any company policy to get me to
     stop thinking about what I believe to be right and wrong. On the other
     side, what I have to say and when I say it, may not be done in the best 
     time and place but it still is my RIGHT to do it. If someone flaunts some
     thing that I consider to be objectional in my face you can be assured 
     that I will tell them to get out of my face.

     Considering your stand and words it would appear that YOU are far more
     intolerant of others that have a different opinion or viewpoint than
     yours. YOU sir are the one with a severe case of tunnelvision, and 
     delusions of how the world should be. Get off your high horse before you 
     fall off.

                                Bob B 
    

re:  earrings as a sign of hostility, etc.

What tends to get ludicrous is the perpetual tendency to mistake a minor
peccadillo or small social change for "end of civilization as we know it".
I don't know how many times in my life I've seen some style of clothing,
dance, politics, etc. decried as a symbol of (rapidly) encroaching DOOM.

Funny, after 36 years (my life span to date) Western civilization is still 
clanking along.  Not only not dead, but hardly appearing wounded.  From
my readings in history, it appears that crying doom is a well favored and
long lived entertainment of mankind.  Hard to keep track of the number of
times Western civilization and/or U.S. society has been declared dead over
the past years.  Oh well, it keeps some people happy.

Sometimes though, a fashion is ..... just a fashion.  Maybe some people
are using it to indicate disagreement with society at large, but to assume
that every man wearing an earring is disagreeing with society is a rather
considerable leap of judgement.  Some people in my generation grew long
hair as a true and sincere protest against societal rules about male
appearance, most did it because it became fashionable.  Most of them are
doing quite nicely as bankers, brokers, engineers, whatever - and society
has survived quite nicely, despite the predictions that long hair on males
would lead to doom too.

Also, I think the relationship between decadence and the downfall of a
civilization has been turned around.  In my opinion, decadence is not a
cause of downfall, downfall is a cause of decadence.  When the ruling order,
be it the nobility, clergy, party or party system has lost its legitimacy
in the eyes of the populace, then decadent behavior starts to surface, 
usually among the members of the ruling order first.  (After all, who has
first access to all the goodies that allow you to be properly decadent?)

/Dave

    'The country has gone to the dogs' is what I have heard people say.
    They then usually supply a whole host of things that apparently
    supply the answer.
    
    When Punk hit the UK, I thought, YUK! All that spikey hair, all that
    spitting they do at gigs, Johnny Rotten et al. Now the latest fashion
    is [was? have I gotten out of touch?] gender-benders like Boy George.
    All that ridiculous dressing up! (my opinion!) Yet, like any other
    fashion they have settled down and become 'fashionable'. As .187 says,
    society still clanks along, the end of the world isn't visible
    yet...it's just that society is *changing*. Whether for the good or
    bad, we have yet to see. 

    Re: .186: You're right, you're entitled to your opinion, and your
    views. And to not have others views rammed down your throat. Let's
    agree to disagree and leave it at that.

    As for rings in the ear, I don't wear any. I thought about it a
    few times, but, I don't wear ANY kind of `ornament' (my words!).
    I prefer to appear to the world `unmarked', quite simply 'cos I
    can see no pratical purpose for them. However, I reserve the
    right to change my mind!

    Pete.

re .188:

Where have you BEEN!  Boy George is ANCIENT.  There has been time since for AT
LEAST a dozen trends absolutely CERTAIN to destroy civilization to have come
through and had their day.  It's rough being in the doom business these days!

to ramble on:

The problem with taking every change in society as a sign of impending chaos
is that after a while, the noise level gets to the point that when the REAL
dangerous problems occur, nobody can tell the difference.  Besides, from
my experience, combined with the near-inevitable workings of Murphy's laws,
what will actually destroy Western society, if/when it comes, is unlikely to 
be one of the currently obvious problems.  In fact, if Murphy is fully in
operation, the fall will probably come AS A RESULT of an ill-considered
attempt to scotch some OVIOUSLY certain danger like WOMEN IN PANTS!

/Dave

p.s. But the headlines would almost be worth the onset of collapse, don't 
     you think?

		"WOMAN WEARS PANTS - U.N. Security Council Meets"

		"MAN SEEN IN EARRINGS - Paris Evacuated"

		"NATO and WARSAW PACT MEET IN MAJOR FASHION CLASH
		 	    AT GERMAN BORDER"

    
    RE:  .187 & .188
    
    No, my friends.  The civilization is not just clanking along as
    you put it.  There have been some "serious" changes in the last
    few years...... and the "final results" are NOT in !!!
    
    *Dwight*

    Re: -< some people never look down the road >-

    Uh, does that mean you have some knowledge of the future I don't? Or is
    what you mean so obvious that it's not worth pointing out? I could
    say...'some people look down the road and see disaster everywhere'.
    
    I'm curious to know what these "serious changes" are, and what the
    "final results" are. Surely not from men wearing earrings?
    
    Pete.

    I think an earring in a mans ear looks sexy.
    

�    I think an earring in a mans ear looks sexy.
    
     The problem is that some men think so too, which gives it an unfortunate
     connotation...
     
     /. Ian .\

    
    
    	Only if it's in the wrong ear Ian. (Left is right and Right is
    wrong, right?)
    
    	Now that my hair is longer and I have the beard, I'm getting
    told more often by (women) friends that I should get one.. I'm
    waiting for someone to give me a diamond stud first.. :-)
    
    							mike

    I was hoping this would this diversion would die quickly, but Mike
    continued beating the horse.
    
.193    The problem is that some men think so too, which gives it an
.193    unfortunate connotation... 

    Why is the connotation unfortunate?  Sounds like a value judgement.
    
.194    Only if it's in the wrong ear Ian. (Left is right and Right is wrong,
.194    right?) 

    Again, what's wrong with being "wrong"?
    
    In any case, the presence/absence of an earring is a very poor
    predictor of a guy's sexual orientation.  It may have been reliable at
    one particular time and in certain communities, but no more. 
    
    As for left versus right meaning anything, that's even less reliable.
    Half the world has it backwards.
    
    These kind of "secret membership codes" are only useful when the
    non-members don't know what they mean.  Once enquiring minds find out,
    they're useless, perhaps even dangerous. 
    
    Steveg

    I just visited my 19 year old son at college this weekend.  He has
    added an ear ring to his new image.  He asked me what I felt about
    this addition.  My reply went something like this.  Well, personally,
    I don't care for ear rings on men.  It's your ear and if you want
    to wear an ear ring, go right ahead.  You must know that some people,
    mostly men, will question your sexuality.  If you are comfortable
    with wearing an ear ring, OK with me.  I admire your courage for
    asking me, your narrow minded, dark ages pop for my feelings and
    opnions.  
    
    Marty

    re .196
    
    Nice response, Marty -- your son is lucky.
    
    Lee

    
    Seems to me that one of the few characteristics ALL vanished
    civilizations have in common is that they no longer exist. (QED)
    
    Take ancient Rome--why did it decay? There's a lot of hypotheses,
    but no firm answers. Lead in the dishes and water? Delegating defense
    to barbarian tribes? Rise of Christianity?
    
    From what I've read of history, there's no one cause for the fall
    of a civilization. (And, incidently, I doubt that most people in
    the civilization noticed the "fall" when it happened) The cause
    of the "fall" is overdetermined-- a multitude of "causes" come
    together, any one of which the civilization could withstand. The
    "fall" is a synergistic effect, not the result of any single event.
    
    Therefore, blaming "permissiveness" or "the size of the national
    debt" or "International Banking" or any other single cause for the
    decline of a nation is oversimplistic.
    
    Second issue: IS the US "degenerating?" If so, in what way? Or is
    it just changing? Is what some people see as a "degeneration" (in
    this case, men wearing earrings, I guess) merely a fad? How is it
    symptomatic of a decline? Does it contribute to a (postulated) decline,
    or is it a symptom of it? (If the "decline" does, indeed, exist)
   
    (It may be a while before I can get back to this...)
    
    Ed E.

    Re .198  Sounds to me like this might be off the original topic?
     Maybe you should create a new topic?  What did you say?
    
    Cheers,
    Marty

    My SO wears an ear ring.  Much to my own surprise I really like
    it.  He does'nt wear it to work or when we visit my folks.  Personally
    I don't care for most jewelry on men, gold chains tend to make me
    think of "macho" symbolism.  
    
    BUT - I think there's a time and place for everything.  People are
    always gonna see it in a different light.  Thats just the way it
    is, so sometimes you just don't need to push the issue.
    

    Well I have been wearing a pierced earring now for about 5 years
    here at Digital. My first supervisor in the first group I worked
    for at DEC asked me the what's the meaning of the earring?
    
    I told him it was just Men's Jewelry.  I don't like wearing gold
    chains and rings etc, but I have a nice small dot of an earring,
    that is hardly visible, I like the size of it, not being emabarrassed
    by the lack of scale.
    
    I think this process of men and earrings and fashion is always
    being constantly evolving into new designs. The cycle does repeat
    itself from say men wearing wigs and frilly lace and high stockings,
    (French Revovlution Era) to the plaid workshirt and jeans and
    work boots. It seems like a broad spectrum of fashion statements
    going around and around. Mostly I feel the "Men" at DEC don't
    really put that much vision into their clothes and fashion.
    
    I see the "Suits" of the sales force and jeans and sneakers of the
    the "techies". I could appreciate more expression in mens fashion in
    dress and jewelry at DEC tastefully and elegantly speaking. 

    
    Its all very well to dump on the suits. The fact remains that
    customers expect the costume to fit the role. 
    
    Sales has a tough job. It wouldn't be a bad thing if everyone
    had to visit a customer occaisionally.

    RE: .202
    
    Say, Bob, lighten up, will ya?
    
    Of course, if DEC is trying to make a sale to a chapter of Hell's
    Angels (so they can efficiently keep track of their membership),
    I guess the salesperson should be appropriately attired: torn jeans,
    scruffy leather jacket, storm trooper boots, and a swastika tatooed 
    on forehead would be stylish. :-)
    
      Alan
          

       
       
       	RE: .202
       
       	Some customers don't believe a DEC engineer unless he shows
       up in jeans.  My kinda customers.. :-)
       
       						mike

    
    re -.1
    
    No, they expect dec engineers to be badly dressed and
    smell worse...

    re: 30.205
    
    I'm going on site in a few days. Do you want to come ? I'll  explain
    your presencse by stating  "you'r our token engineer". Ok ?
    
    All kidding aside, being able to smell can only be truly appreciated
    by those who have lost it, and then had it returned (by surgery).
    
    I'm not sure what is meant by ".. badly dressed ...".
    
    Is there another standard beyond ".. clean, neat, and shaven ..."?
    
    Bob
    
    
    

    RE .203  Umm, Alan, those boots are called "Engineer boots".
    And the fashionable barbarian wears the swastika on the left 
    shoulder ;-)

    I don't understand what being 6'5 or 6'3 has to do with wearing
    a ring in your ear! Does that imply that short men are more apt
    to be gay, and tall men are heterosexuals?  Ridiculous!

    RE: .208
    
    At what reply are you directing your comment?
    
      Alan

    in re .209 in re .208
    
    Alan, it sounds like a reaction to an earlier self description
    by Charles - but it would have to have been way back there in this
    note.
    
    Bonnie

    re: .208
    
    And (to repeat a point), what does having a ring in your ear have
    to do with being gay?
    
    Steveg

    Re: 30.212
    
    That's why I wear an earring....to look queer.
    
    Deviating from the Normal and Expected........
    
    -Arthur

    Last time I went to a customer site I didn't wear a suit, but I
    didn't wear Levis and a T-Shirt either.
    
    I did, however, wear my earring, and I had bathed.
    
    So?
    
    Re: .210 re .209 re .208
    
    Couldn't be a self description by me, I'm only 6' :-) By the way,
    I know more gay men that DON'T wear an earring than do, and most
    of the men I know who wear earrings are quite straight.
    
    What's the world coming to? Can't tell the players without a score
    card!
    
    A possibly interesting anecdote. I recently returned from ten days
    in England. I'd say that on the order of 25% of the men under 21
    were wearing earrings. On the other hand, my waist length hair got
    A LOT of attention...
    
    	... and not just from men!
    
    	-- Charles

    	I've always found a small gold earring in a man's ear quite
    	attractive.  Shows he's got a bit of spunk, individuality,
    	and is slightly (if not very) contrarian.
    
    re:	.213 (Arthur)
    
    	I noticed it right off, thought it looked *great*!  =8*)
    
    						Carla
    

    I think it's a shame when some people can't be objective enough
    to *appreciate* a little originality!
    
    My SO is of Gypsy-Romanian heritage, and his mother pierced his
    ear at birth.  He's always worn a small earring and suffered many
    comments through the years.  I admire him for not buckling under
    and conforming to someone else's standards.  
                                           
    My brother liked the look and pierced his ear too.  Of course, my
    other brothers tease him unmercifully. <:v)
    
    theresa.

    RE .214   "What's the world coming to?  Can't tell the players
               without a score card!"
    
               I wonder about this myself a lot.  If a man has strong
               values external "extras" - earrings included do not
               mean a thing.
    
               Some men feel uncomfortable about earrings on men due
               to the homophobia that is still rampant in the U.S.
               
               A true threat of course would be very long hair in
               machine shops and such.  Companies and insurers have
               justifiable fears in matters like that. 
    
    
                                                   Russ

    Re: .217
    
        A true threat of course would be very long hair in machine shops
        and such.  Companies and insurers have justifiable fears in matters
        like that.
    
    Exactly right, that's why I don't wear loose floppy clothes when
    working on my car, and I wear a hair net. I also take off my watch
    when working near large magnets, such as found in disk drives.
    
    	-- Charles

    
    You also use the net when building widgets on your lathes up
    there, right -;?

    Hairnet when building widgets?!
    
    Hell no! I'm a put the top down, let your hair loose, pedal to
    the metal INTRINSICS developer. We don't let sissy practical
    considerations like bugs in our teeth (or code)slow US down.
    
    I don't write no stinkin widgets.
    
    Besides you construct widgets with tweezers, toothpicks, and miniature
    marshmallows, not a lathe...
    
    Anyway, REAL X implementors code directly to the protocol.
    
    	-- Charles

    I was once told there was a "convention", vis-a-vis, what ear a
    man wore his earring on.
    
    If a man wore one on his left ear, it signified he was heterosexual.
    
    If he wore one on his right ear, it meant he was gay.
    
    Does anybody know if this is a myth?
    
    And what about a guy who wears earrings on both ears? Does this
    mean he's bi-sexual?
    
      Alan

    re .221
    
    Yep, it's a myth.
    
    If I put an earring in my right ear, I'd still be heterosexual.
    
    geesh ... ;-)
    
    -dave

    
    > Anyway, REAL X implementors code directly to the protocol.
      
      Protocol? Who needs that? 
    
      REAL developers code against the ether...

    Re: .221
    
    I don't think it was always a myth (per .222).  I know when I was
    growing up, and a male wanted his ear pierced he sexualy preference
    did constitute which ear was pierced.  Left for hets and right for
    gays.
    
    Of course, with the different styles of dress etc. today, I'm sure
    either/or is excepted.
    
    CC
    

    When *I* was growing up, lo these many years ago, no straight would
    be caught dead wearing an earring, and left meant active while right
    meant passive.
    
    These days, I don't think there is any established "convention"
    either straight/gay, active/passive, or anything else.
    
    Now, what do cuffs signify? How about large cuffs with huge pendant
    pearls?
    
    	:-)
    
    	-- Charles

    
    I think they indicate that
    
    a) the wearer is a wealthy stockbroker
    b) the wearer owns a pearl farm
    c) the wearer is in need of fashion advise
    
    I see some brokers there wear them at Schwabs, in MP.

    Well, I have it from an authoritative source, Ann Landers.  She
    says, and I quote, "Left is right and right is ...."
    
    I did not complete the sentence in deference to offending any gay
    readers.
    
    I recently got my left ear pierced and I'm still heterosexual, so
    I guess that just goes to show ya.
    
    However I have noticed that women in the 30+ category seem to have a
    distinct preference for the decoration while women younger than that
    seem to find it distasteful. I've noticed a similar cut for other
    issues.  This is not universal of course, just another gross, unfounded
    generalization.
    
    No one rags me, but I'm also 6' tall 185 pound runner/weight lifter.
    
    I also wear bow ties.

    Here in the sunny south of England, I've seen men wear earrings
    in either, both ears, multiple earrings... and none of it means
    anything.
    
    Just a fashion.
        
    Pete (who doesn't wear earrings).

    Hi all,
    I'm 5-10" 190 married 1 4yr old boy been w DEC 8yrs and have 4 in
    my left ear,I also own a black leather 3 peice suit...so
    
    .215 what do you call someone like that?
    .222 it only count depending what color hankie you have in which
    back pocket....(I'm just like a kids Harley shirt I saw,"future
    harley rider already out of line"
    
    
    P.S I'm 32
    
    
                               Kevin

    RE: 30.229
    
    < "I also own a black leather 3 piece suit.."
    < ".215 what do you call someone like that?"
    
    
    	I call someone like that insensitive to the plight of animals.
    	How many animals died to make that leather suit and in what
    	agony did it suffer. Are you aware of that? Do you care? I
    	don't care how many earrings you wear, just don't buy anymore
    	leather suits. Ok?
    
    							Art
    

�    Here in the sunny south of England, I've seen men wear earrings
�    in either, both ears, multiple earrings... and none of it means
�    anything.

       Really? as a person from more Northern climes I would say that it
       only underlines my native suspicion of all Southerners... :-)

          

       /. Ian .\

    
    I'm 6'6" and 250 lbs.  I have one earring (stud) in my left ear, 
    and soon to get my second.
    
    I wear it in the office, and have had nothing but compliments (of
    course I don't know or care what's said behind my back).
    
    
    Oh yes, I forgot to mention, I'm gay.
    
    "jackin' the house", Bob

    Re: .232
    
    6'6" 250 lbs two earrings and a taste for house?!
    
    I may have to fly out just to see this!
    
    	-- Charles

    
         That's gonna be one interesting BN party!
    
                          Greg
    

    re: .221
    
    Lets see if I got this right. Left ear pierced is het, right ear
    is gay, both ears pierced is ... ah .. maybe bi, and ... the tough
    part. 
    
    What is "neither ear pierced" ?  non-sexual ??
    
    RWE

    No no no Bob, You left out the "final exam" question.
    
    	What does having your nose pierced signify? Which nostril? What
    	does wearing a bone in your septum mean? Is which nipple you
    	have pierced significant? Are two earrings twice as significant?
    	Is the relationship arithmetic or... geometric? What about tattoos?
    	Is there a correlation between the length of...
    
    never mind. My silliness circuit breaker just tripped. 'scuse me, I see
    a rat hole that I just *have* to investigate. 
    
    	Bye now,
    	-- Charles

    re .238

re: .232, et al
    
I'm 5'10" and 160 lbs.  I don't have an earing in either ear, and don't
intend to get one, ever, never mind a second one.
    
I don't wear foolish jewelry, especially at the office, and have had
nothing but compliments (of course, I don't know or care what's said
behind my back).
    
    
Oh yes, I forgot to mention, I'm not queer.
    
"smakin' the louse",

Kip

re: 30.237                    A ring in your ear?                    237 of 242

    
    What does having your nose pierced signify?
     Hmm two approaches here: Either they are engaged, in the case of
    far eastern women, or enraged if out to pasture.
    

     Which nostril?
    
    'tween the septum, i think.

    What does wearing a bone in your septum mean? Generally a aborigine
    cultutural oddity clone.
    
     Is which nipple you have pierced significant? Left.
    
     Are two earrings twice as significant?
    
    Prohaps .. two SO's ??

    Is the relationship arithmetic or... geometric? Progressively debilitive.
    
     What about tattoos?  Depends on shape, size, coverage, placement.
    Be more specific, please.
    
    	Is there a correlation between the length of... 
    and the earlobes ? Rumour is that its true, but then rumours generally
    are except when not, is it not the converse ?
    
    
    never mind. My silliness circuit breaker just tripped. 'scuse me, I see
    a rat hole that I just *have* to investigate.  Ditto !!
    
>    	Bye now,
>    	-- Charles
    Saynora, Monsieur
    
    Bob

    re:  30.242   (was that Betsy, or Watson?)
        
    >>	Oh yes, I forgot to mention, I'm not queer.
    >>
    >>	"smakin' the louse",

    It's a good thing you aren't.  If the best you can do is kiss a
    'louse' as a strate man, you'd probably be a very lonely gay person.
    
    "jackin' the house", Bob 
    (and that's being a damn good d.j. in Chicago)
    

    Re: .245
    
    Mike,
    
    The chances are good that Kip is completely clueless.
    
    	Give it a rest,
    	-- Chalrles

    After two hundered and forty six replies, let's give this entire
    topic an enforced rest for a while!
    
    				Steve