Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    re .0
    
    Please elaborate.  What is your intent?
    
    - M

re -1
		and whats wrong with that then............

		...............I stumbled on both in my search for a woman!


@ @
 ^ )
\_/

Richard.

There are exceptions, but it sounds pretty accurate to me (at least in 
the male description).  I've had the notion that if I chase men to 
whom I'm attracted, some day I'll fall in love with one of them.

					--Gerry

Oh, I know what you mean!!!

"A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle!"
				- Anonymous

Like that?

Bugs

    
    Re .3, well, I'm the person (extreme loony feminist in your book
    I guess) who quoted this in Womannotes (real author unknown).  I
    quoted this as an example of ways that men and women are different
    - not necessarily inherently but still different.  I quoted this
    because in my experience it is the truth.  I happen to think that
    most little girls dream of falling in love long before they discover
    the delights of sex; and that most little boys dream about having
    sex long before they discover the delights of love.  I don't even
    think this is a statement against men.  I just think that if we
    understand ways in which men and women are different we may be able
    to get along better, and have more realistic expectations of each
    other.
    
    Why does this make me loony?
    
    Lorna
    

    re: .7
    
    Dear Lorna,
    
    It doesn't.
    
    Bruce
    

    i've fallen in love before.....
    
                                     with men i wouldn't want to meet....
    
    angeline

        You may notice that 22.0 and .2 are missing.
        
        A reader objected to a phrase used by the author of those notes.
        On being informed of this, the author deleted the notes.  I wish
        he would consider re-entering this discussion in a more neutral
        fashion, but that's up to him.
        
        	/dave (why'd I let myself get talked into moderating,
        	anyway :-))

    After some research, I have decided that this was not a bad idea
    for a topic.  Unfortunately, it was not presented in a manner that
    would allow readers to draw the same conclusion.
    
    The intent of the original author was to parallel a newspaper column
    that appears regularly in a newspaper published in the UK.  The idea is
    to present material that represents sexism against men by feminist
    organizations or individuals.  The intent was not to say that the
    feminist movement OVERALL is bad or sexist, only that there are
    extremists in any movement, and that sexism against men by feminists
    is ironic.
    
    Unfortunately, to readers in the US who have never seen the above
    mentioned newspaper column, "Loony Feminists" is somewhat vague. "Loony
    Feminists" could mean "The particular feminists who are loony" or
    "Feminists in general are loony."  I guess this problem comes in two
    parts: first, US readers did not understand the context. If the
    mentioned column regularly appeared in _Newsweek_ I suspect we would
    have no problem.  Second, the English language gets [mis?:-)]used
    somewhat differently in the US than it does in the UK.  A simple single
    word can mean entirely different things depending on who you are
    talking to. [A good example is the term "wench": a not particularly
    offensive term in the UK- try using this word in a bar in the US! Let
    us know if you survive. :-) ]
    
    This is an international notes file.  We need to be 1) more sensitive
    to our wide and varied audience and 2) less sensitive of criticism that
    may result in the event we might have been [just] misunderstood.
    
    As I notice we are missing more than just the base note from this topic
    [all of which were deleted by the authors], I would also like to take
    this opportunity to ask that people refrain from deleting material
    unless absolutely necessary.  The potential for subsequent replies to
    be misinterpreted or taken out of context goes up significantly, and
    raises the question of censorship- something we're working very hard to
    avoid. 
    
    Thank you,
    
    - M
    

    The column is called "Wimmin" and appears in "Private Eye".

    
    Re .3 & .7, the phrase I quoted in Womannotes and that was re-quoted
    in .3 was, "Men stumble on love in their quest for sex, women stumble
    on sex in their quest for love."  
    
    I'm putting it back in so that my reply in .7 makes sense.
    
    This phrase was used in .3 as an example of sexism against men,
    which was not my original intent in Womannotes at all.  The discussion
    there (between Dave Butenhof and myself) was about differences between
    men and women.   But, this was not meant to be a put down of men.
    
    Actually it's probably more sensible to look for sex before love.
     It's easier to find, right?
    
    Lorna
    

    Women who expect *their* men to be the complete male sterotype commit
    a certain form of sexism against men. I know I appreciate not having
    to be strong *all the time*. While I feel women suffer a little more
    than men in a sexist society (of course I could be predjudiced)
    I have to believe the strong silent type male image has harmed many
    men who did not fit it. 
    
    It seems that in our society men are punished more for having womanly
    traits than women for having manly traits. I could dress in man's
    clothing and not create much fuss but if my husband put on one of
    my 'feminine' sweaters watch out! Women don't beat up lesbians either.
    
    Liesl 

    
    	Just a nit here -
    
    	I often hear phrases to the effect that men shouldn't be
    afraid to show their 'feminine' traits.  Same for women and
    their 'masculine/agressive' traits.
    
    	All this does is give support to the notion that much
    traits actually have some sexual basis in the first place.
    It is sexist in itself, no matter how well intentioned.
    
    	The traditional masculine/feminine dichotomy is a limiting
    and harmful stereotype.
    						- Karl

    Consider:
    
    A female engineer or secretary going to a man to lift something
    heavy or do something dirty.  Is this sexist?
    
    I believe that women can be as strong as men, but they are taught
    not to be.  Because men do the 'tough' stuff, they maintain stronger
    muscles.  They have to maintain the image of being the man of the
    house.  A single woman is probably stronger than a married woman
    because the single woman must do things for herself.  If I'm
    wrong, please inform me, don't flame.
    
    After 16 years with my wife, I have noticed that she doesn't put
    as much effort into doing something as I do.  Opening a jar comes
    to mind.  She tried and failed, then handed me the jar.  I handed
    it back and told her to try harder.  She tried and failed.  I explained
    that I believe that men are taught to use every ounce of power and
    then a little bit more, but women are taught to conserve their power
    and don't push too hard.  If you can't do it with reasonable power,
    give it to a man who will pull a muscle before giving up.  I told
    her to twist that lid until she felt that she might pull a muscle,
    and she got the jar open.
    
    Have you ever seen a group of men with a jar that's impossible to
    open?  They will try until the muscles ripple with fatigue.  Then
    they try with the other hand.  This is intensified if there is a
    woman present.  Every man must pull all of his tendons loose trying
    to be the most macho.  Its pretty comical to watch.  It becomes
    a game.  I'm just as guilty as all of the rest, too.  My father
    was built like a brick outhouse and he always made me do things
    because a 'man' must be able to do it in order to help the women.
    The worst insult in the world was to let a woman do it for you.
    
    I don't mind helping women because they think something is too heavy
    or the don't have the strength to do something.  I was taught to
    "be the man".  Sometimes I tell my wife to "be a man".
                                                                   
    Spence

    There are several nice tools to open jars but they are not
    easy to find in the stores. I have one that is worth it's
    weight in gold that is shaped sort of like this () there is
                                                    /\
    a hinge at the top of the two curved pieces and the interior
    surfaces have teeth.
    
    there is also something that my mother used to have which was two
    pieces of metal that would slide apart that were controlled by
    a handle.
    
    what's the point of popping a tendon when a tool can be used :-)
    
    But I think that one of the biological differences between the average
    man and the average woman is that the man has greater upper body
    strength so it is not entirely cultural .....

    re.19
    steve i just opened a jar that my MALE roommate could not.
    do i look muscle bound??????
    					kelly

    re .21:
    
    Not from where I sit, but noone looks muscle-bound via a VT220.
    
    - M

    Good grief - if you take away from men the job of opening
    jars and bottles, women will have no further use for us!
    
    					Steve

There's a secret to opening jars I learned from my mom -- run the jar's lid
( hopefully it's metal! ) under hot water, and the heat will cause the lid
to expand thus freeing it from the jar.  Works every time.  Of course, being
a "man" I only do this when no one else is around to see it!!!!    ;-)   ;-)


Brian

    Re .20
>    But I think that one of the biological differences between the average
>    man and the average woman is that the man has greater upper body
>    strength so it is not entirely cultural .....

    So you are saying that an average man is stronger than an average
    woman biologically, rather than being developed through exersize.
    If a man and a woman of the same dimensions did exactly the same 
    things, wouldn't they both be equally strong or is there a biological 
    difference that would prevent the woman from being as strong as a man?
    I have seen muscular women, but none are as muscular as muscular
    men.
    
    The above sounds sarcastic to me but its not intended that way.  
    
    Spence

    Re: .25
    
    The biological difference is real.  If you take the "average" woman
    and have her exercise her body to the same extent as the "average"
    man, the man would end up with greater upper body strength.  This
    is perhaps meaningful for people who spend their lives opening
    jam jars and crushing beer cans, but otherwise isn't too important.
    
    There are all sorts of tips for opening jars, but this isn't
    a household hints conference, last I checked.  (Is there one?  I
    wonder...)  The hot water trick works often, but not always.  Better
    is to find some way to break the vacuum seal.  The gadgets work
    well indeed.
    
    It can be somewhat humiliating for a man who has tried to open
    a jar and failed to have a woman then easily open it.  The usual
    excuse is then "I loosened it for you"!  :-)   It's all a game.
    
    				Steve
    
    
    

    re: .20, .21, .26
    
    Are you _sure_ of that?  My mom (the electrician/farmer) is 6' tall,
    and still the strongest person I know.  When my old ('71) Mustang
    had to have a headlight replaced, the bolts had basically rusted
    shut.  I tried, my male and female friends tried (some of them were
    pretty strong), and then I drove the thing up to Maine.  Her boyfriend
    couldn't get it undone (plumber/electrician/construction worker),
    Mom broke a screwdriver on it, got out a better quality screwdriver,
    and the thing was out in one grunt.
    
    I have a hard time believing that any man is _innately_ stronger
    than my mom.  Yes, she works/excercises (has to), but I still find
    it hard to believe that any man who worked the same amount as she
    does would be significantly stronger.    
    
    BTW, I think women/girls should be trained to use tools and learn
    more about how to be a fix-it, handy-person.  But then again, this
    is an engineer speaking (smile).
    
    Lee

    re .25 and .26
    The difference is due to the male hormones which promote muscle
    development. Plus the fact that women have a higher percentage
    of body fat than men - which means less muscle per pound of body
    weight. 
    
    re house hold hints - as long as it doesn't take over the conference
    what's the harm? 
    
    and as Steve alspointed out the real secret is breaking the 
    vacuum between the lid and the liquid, which can even be done by
    rapping the jar lid on the floor. Which is why the "you loosened
    it for me" incident happens so often - the first person allowed
    a small air leak to start and when the second person tried to
    open it the vacuum had broken. (This is actually physics not
    house hold hints anyway :^> ).
    
    Bonnie 

    Re: .27
    
    Lee - that you know of a woman who is stronger than all the men
    you know doesn't change things - the AVERAGE woman is muscularly
    weaker (in upper body strength - I have no information on other
    parts of the body) than the AVERAGE man.  I am certain that there
    are women stronger than I am, but most are not (and I am not
    particularly muscular).
    				Steve

        Male and female muscle tissues grow differently... or rather,
        they grow the same, but have different specialties.  Male muscle
        tissue more easily increases in bulk, giving the mass and brute
        strength needed for hoisting a bar bell.  Female muscle tissue
        more easily increases in density, giving the quick strength
        needed for athletics and dancing.
        
        However, both sexes have both types of muscle tissue, and both
        can be developed.  A male athlete or dancer needs to be a little
        more careful than a similarly inclined woman to avoid becoming
        muscle-bound (and losing flexibility/agility); on the other hand,
        a woman weight lifter needs to work a little harder to *get* the
        necessary muscle bulk for heavy lifting, and to show off all
        those muscle lumps demonstrated in body building competitions. 
        
        The important thing is that, in both cases, either sex is
        perfectly capable of developing the appropriate types of muscle
        tissue, and of "getting the job done".  As in most such issues,
        the real difference is cultural: women (in most "civilized"
        cultures) don't tend to exercise as heavily or regularly, and in
        general simply aren't encouraged to build strength. 
        
        	/dave

    eagle,
    i think the stress comes in when the woman tries to drive the mans
    car while he is in it!!!!!! we(women)never seem to drive it just
    right!
    					kelly

    Re: .25 and .26
    

	Where I do my grocery shopping, they have these green plastic
	gadgets used for opening jars.  They are commonly refered to 
	as "Rubber Husbands".    
    
	Kathy    

    re: .31
    
    I get pretty upset when _anyone_ else drives my car.  Be they male
    or female, makes me nervous.
    
    My $.02 -- Lee

    .31, good point, and why???  I dunno.
    
    I have my truck that always has my fishing gear in it and I can
    use it to haul lumber, dirt and such things.  My wife
    has her truck that will carry passengers if needed.  Mon-Fri, I
    drive the truck, she drives the 4-Runner.  BUT, on weekends, I drive
    the 4-Runner and she rides.  The 4-Runner is better for shopping,
    going to restaurants, etc., but I ALWAYS drive.  But, I can't come
    up with a reason for it except that its always been that way.
    
    Very intriguing thought. )-)
    
    Spence

Well I hate to drive so if someone wants to do the driving I don't 
usually complain..

I also hate nervous drivers, one of which I am, so I try and spare 
most people having to contend with me at the wheel.  I am the "old
lady" type driver that practically eats the steering wheel as I clutch
it so tightly... I stuff my purse down behind me to keep my back 
straight and I am a very comical sight at the wheel.. I don't have
a problem with it but I do with someone watching me! ;-)

Next time you are driving behind a Sunday driver going 43.2 in a 
55 mile per hour zone.. take pity... it is most likely me!!!!!

;-)   bruuuuuuuum bruuuuuuuuum
gailann 

    It seems she always wants me to drive,even though we've both
    had some racing experience and she's a most capable driver.
    She once explained that 'Id rather sightsee'.
    I like to drive  so it seems to work out.
    
    On the debate of male and female strength ,has anyone seen 
    any research on the relative speed of reflexes between males and
    females ? I for one am a great admirer(sp) of the greater flexibility
    which women seem to retain so easily ,and which men lose as easily
    as we all age.
    
    --Robin

    re .39
    
    It may be male sexism here but  I also do the creative cooking
    ...she does the dishes. But I see the point ,yes men do assume the
    burdens in many cases, In our marriage she does the yard work,
    I maintain any thing mechanical. This gets complex ...is this now
    female sexism? . (she likes gardening,I like machines)
    
    My rastafarian friends in Jamaica have a saying "ISM..SCHISM"
    

Re: .39
    
 >  Men seem to take on the dirty and difficult or less fun tasks
 >  because for some reason we all accept that as "proper" !!!
    
  There's a sucker born every minute...


Bahama Mama

re: .42

	You know I'm only picking on you Eagloid..I kinda like being helped
myself...especially when changing headlights since I can never get the screws
out, and Dad didn't give me the right tool when he bought me my toolbox.

Bahama Mama

    re .40
    
    That's not sexism that's personal taste.

    
    
    	I don't see what's so hard about driving in London.. Driving
    	on the "wrong" side is actually easier than on the "right" side.
    
    	Sorry to go off on a tangent.. Back to our regularly scheduled
    	topic.
    
    							mike

	Driving on the wrong side is no problem, every one is doing it.
	One way streets are not even a challenge, you can only go one way.
	Two way streets are a problem.........


Richard.

    	I brought in a pie I made one time and one of the ladies at
    work (who was into womans' lib) ask me if my wife made it.  I thought
    that was kind of sexist since I wasn't even married at the time.
    	As far as the female body being weaker than the male body, you
    have to remember that men have been taking the lead in "strength"
    tasks for such a long time that it may be that women have evolved
    "weaker" bodies.  That being said I should also say that I don't
    believe it one bit.
    	Women do have stronger bodies when it comes to resisting disease
    and other effects of the environment.  So who's to say who's stronger?
    Many of the earlier notes seem to refer to strength only in terms
    of being able to lift weights (ie. muscle power) however there are
    many other areas where women are stronger than men.  Disease resistance
    and resistance to cold are two that come to mind.  (Am I being sexist
    now?  Sorry if I am, I'm new to this notes file.)
    	As far as women letting the hard tasks fall to the men I must
    have a very unusual wife.  When we were clearing land for our house
    she was right out there swinging a machete and de-limbing trees
    I had cut down.  One week later she gave birth to our first child
    Kate who happenned to be a week and a half late.  MY WIFE! STRONG
    LIKE OX, WORKS IN FIELD!!!  Ruff! Ruff!  :-)
    
    Rich Z
          

    Feminine weakness is a middle/upper-class luxury. When you're
    scrambling to make ends meet, to wrest a living from uncooperative
    fields or uncaring cities, you don't have time to say "oh, that's
    just l'il ol' me, I can't possibly lift that big bale of hay for
    the horse."  You feed the horse. 
    
    I grew up chopping and stacking wood, heaving car parts around the
    garage, and generally not being very feminine in that regard.  Even
    now I can do more work around the yard and house than my husband
    can -- lift more, move more, last longer.  Oddly enough, though,
    when we were tested at a fitness center a couple of years ago, they
    measured him as considerably stronger. 
    
    --bonnie

    re .49  Don't confuse strength with endurance - most marathon
    runners aren't heavy lifters and most bodybuilders can't run
    26+ miles. (Maybe he's just clever :-)  )

    Well, he is a marathoner . . .  and he certainly is clever! :)
    
    But I was talking about around-the-house tasks that would seem to
    involve mostly strength, like who lifts the storm door and holds
    it in place while the other one screws in the hinges.  He could
    barely lift it, while I found it easy to lift and hold steady. Yet
    he can bench press almost twice what I can. 
    
    --bonnie
    

        .51: I suspect a larger part of the difference might be that
        you *know how to lift* better than he does.  Experience in
        lifting does that.  Lifting a door in front of you is
        substantially different from bench pressing a bar bell. 
        While some of the raw muscle power would transfer (not all,
        since the leverage is different, and some different muscles
        will come into play), the *skill* won't transfer well at
        all.
        
        As for health club "strength measurements", I wouldn't put too
        much value on that... it depends on exactly what they measure,
        how they measure it, etc.  It's like the saw about IQ tests: all
        IQ tests really measure is how good the person is at taking IQ
        tests.
        
        In short... obviously he's stronger at lifting bar bells over
        his chest.  Just as obviously, you're stronger at lifting storm
        doors. 
        
        	/dave

    I think this may be the only reply actually on the topic....
    
    I recently bought a newly-introduced food product, and enclosed
    in the box was a survey card to be mailed in.  After asking the
    standard questions about the product itself, and who bought the
    product ("Male head of household", "Female head of household",
    "Other") it asks "Is the Female Head of Household employed?"
    and "What is the age of the Female Head of Household?".
    
    Now these last two questions are unanswerable, because there are
    NO females in my household, and I am offended that they don't
    give a damn about my opinion because I'm male.  (If I were a female,
    I'd be equally incensed about the first question, as it's unlikely
    I'd be looking at this survey card if I wasn't at least employed
    in the home as a homemaker.)
    
    I will return the card (their stamp), and note my displeasure. 
    The product (Nestle Toll House Ready to Bake Cookies) wasn't
    that good either.
    				Steve

    Re:-1
    Steve,I laughed when I read your note ,it reminded me of 
    a form of sexism I get subjected to often.
    I am the cook in our house,my wife does not like to cook,
    and a long time ago ,we made a deal.
    I do most of the cooking ,and definitely all the major meals,
    guests,family dinners ,etc are my responsibility.
    I constantly watch to hear and see the reaction of her friends
    and acquaintances (female) when they find out that I did or do
    the cooking ,some comments:
    
    'My you've trained him well'
    'How did you ever swing that ?'
    'Was it easy to teach him'
     etc,etc.
    
    It's been an source of amusement to us .
    
    ...Robin 
    

    Dans mon ecole (Ecole Superieure de Commerce), on trouve deux sections
    principales : Secretariat et Gestion
    
    Il y a de plus en plus de filles qui vont en Gestion, bien que les
    employeurs fassent parfois (souvent) la grimace. Mais tenez-vous
    bien, il n'y a pas UN garcon en Secretariat !
    
    Pourquoi ? Deja parce que le secretariat est considere comme un
    travail de fille (meme s'il n'y a que des secretaires d'Etat
    masculins), ce qui constituerait plutot une forme de sexisme envers
    les femmes; mais surtout, aucun garcon n'oserait aller en secretariat,
    ce serait quelque chose de tellement enorme, un garcon qui
    manifesterait ce desir serait immediatement traite d'homosexuel,
    de fille, il serait moque, et de toutes facons, il ne trouverait
    jamais un employeur qui veuille de lui !
    
    Le sexisme est a double sens : Lorsque j'etais enfant, les filles
    etaient obligees de faire de la couture, les garcons faisaient des
    travaux manuels. Impossibilite pour les filles de faire du bricolage
    (ce n'etait pas une activite feminisante, nous devions apprendre
    a repasser et repriser les chemises de notre futur mari.. il y 8
    ans seulement de ca), impossibilite pour les garcons d'apprendre
    a recoudre un bouton (puisque les filles allaient etre la pour ca..)
    
    A present, les garcons comme les filles font de la couture, du
    repassage, du tricot, du raccommodage. Ceci n'est plus considere
    comme une activite avilissante, et feminine, mais bien comme un
    atout fort utile pour la suite, une connaissance pratique quasiment
    indispensable.

    
    Zoziau

               -< Sexism is always double-edged ...>-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    In my school ([a good business school]), there are two major sections:
    secretariat [the discipline of being a secretary...] and management

    There are more and more girls going into management, even though
    employers aren't always (ever) thrilled about it.  But consider,
    there is not ONE boy in the secretariat !

    Why?  Already because being a secretary is considered girl's work
    (even though there are only male Secretaries of State), which
    would be more a form of reverse sexism ; but especially, no boy
    would dare to go into the secretariat, that would be something so
    huge, a boy who wanted to do this would be immediately treated as
    a homosexual, a girl, he would be mocked, and in any cas, he would
    never find an employer who would want him!
    
    The sexism is an a double sense: when I was a chid, girls were obliged
    to do sewing [literally, but I think she is referring to a broader
    sense of couture...], and the boys did manual work.  It was impossible
    for the girls to do odd jobs (not an activity which would make good
    women out of us, we should have been learning to iron and mend the
    shirts of our future husband... there are only eaight years of that).
    Impossible for the boys to learn how t put a button back on (since
    girls were going to be there for that..)
    
    Now, both boys and girls do sewing, ironing, knitting,
    repairing/mending.  This is no longer considered degrading and
    feminine, but very like a trump card extremely useful for later,
    a practical knowledge almost indespensible.

    
    Zoziau

re: Steve's cookies

"Dear Mrs. Connelly" is right up there with "YOU may have
already won!!!" as one of those red flags indicating that
what I am starting to read should go immediately into the
trash (do not pass Go, do not collect (my) $200) without
any further mental effort being expended.  Amazing how I
managed to get this far without my 1.1 wives and 2.2 rug
rats...:-)

    RE: .52
    
    	Sound like the one that goes like 
    
    	"All diagnostics tells you is that diagnostics runs."
    
    						:-)
    
    							mike

    We square dance.  My wife needed a green skirt for the St. Patricks
    Day dance and she didn't have one.  She doesn't sew, so I made her
    a skirt.  When we got to the dance, all of the women she knew came
    over and said "Oh, that's a nice skirt, did you make it?".  When
    she told them that *I* made it, I got some weird looks.  Then they
    all had to look at the hems to see how good of a job it was.
    
    I'm known in the local craft store as 'the man who knits'.
    
    Spence

    RE: .58
    
    I love answering the phone to hear "Is Mrs. Lockridge there?"  Seems
    that if you own a home, one automatically HAS to be married.  Instead of
    replying that the is NO Mrs. Lockridge, I should reply that she lives
    in Tucson, AZ (where my sister-in-law lives) or that she is dead (my
    mother). 
    
    I have also noted that most cookbooks deny the fact that men DO cook
    (but then again I have some old cookbooks when, that was "the woman's
    job"!)
    
    -Bob  

    re .61
    I love to have a salesman call and ask for 'the lady of the house'
    or Mrs. Frasher.  I hand her the phone and she starts listening
    to the sales pitch.  After a couple of minutes of boredom, she says
    something like "I have no idea, you'll have to talk to my husband"
    or "I'm sorry, my husband already has a sewing machine".
    
    BTW, we have his and hers lawnmowers.  Hers is new.
    
        Spence

                                   
    Re:  About women being as strong as men.  I think that they can
    be, if they are about the same size.             
                                                     
    But... How many men do you know that are 5.0, and 95.5lbs?
                                                     
    When there is something heavy to lift or move, I will try my best,
    and then get my SO to do it.                     
                                                     
    And then there are those stupid jar lids.  I've got itsy bitsy hands.
    It's impossible for me to get a good grip on big jar lids.  My SO
    rescues me again.                                                
                                                                     
    I've never played the po' lil' ol' me routine - it makes me wanna
    puke when I see women do that.                                   
                                                                     
    Of course being little like me can have its advantages.  Quite a 
    few times, I've helped my SO reach for things while fixing his car
    - his big ol' hands can't reach in little places.
                        
                                      
    Bye, Y'all!
    
    Corinne
                        
    
                                                 
                                                                     
                                                     
                                                     
                                                     
                                                     
                                                     
                                                     
                                                     
                                                     
                                                     
                                                     
                                                     
                                                     

    re .59:
    
    I resemble that remark!!  (-:
    
    
     - John, Low End Diagnostics

re: .66

The truth hurts, eh?