Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    With 3 children and a stable (10 years) marriage, it's on my list
    of to-do for next year.
    
    �30 in Basingstoke as far as I know, for a quickie in a dentist
    chair.

    I had the Big V about two years ago, when my second child was about
    two years old. my wife and I are happy that I did it. (It was pretty
    much joint decision.)
    
    Having babies is a really wonderful experience but we don't really
    want to do it again.
    
    As to the pain, it's long gone. Having an ingrown toenail removed
    hurt a lot more!
           
    It makes birth control really easy. no more creams,pills, etc.
    
    Joe
    
    

>    Have had one.
    
    As I mentioned in the "other" men notes (which seems to have
    disappeared) I had one 2.5 weeks ago.  Took 13 minutes under local.
    I won't call it pain, I'd classify it under discomfort.  Easy stuff.
    Going to the dentist hurts more!
    
>    May need information on one.
    
    Like what?  Doctors?  Insurance?  JH covered 100%.  Do you need
    a referral?  Where do you live?
    
>    Would like to share information about one.
    
    If you want more details about the surgery, feel free to call me.
    DTN 234-4514 or drop mail to above enet address.
    
>    Have a LEGITIMATE AND CONSTRUCTIVE  opinion about one.
    
    Opinion: Go for it.  It seems that this operation is easier and
    less risky your wife having her tubes tied.  Lighter side: I constantly
    remind Linda (my wife) that I now can go out and have all the
    meaningless affairs I want and not leave any "evidence" behind.
    She, on the other hand, has to be careful!! ;-}
    
    GOG
    

	Had mine 6 1/2 years ago.
	We have only 1 child, a boy of almost 10 now, but my wife is
	prone to high blood pressure (runs in her family, called 'Essential
	Hypertension') and didn't want any more kids anyway.
	So, rather than put her through the ordeal of a general anaesthetic
	and several days in hospital, we decided that it was best for me to
	have a vasectomy.
	It was arranged through our family doctor of that time who ran a small
	clinic for such things. After a couple of counselling sessions (one
	on my own and one joint sesseion with my wife) it was arranged that
	I would have the op. on a Saturday afternoon so I wouldn't need to
	miss any worktime.
	Hence, for �35 one cold March Saturday, I savoured the ?delights? of
	the surgeon's knife and, later, the itch as the hair grew back :-} :-}

	I can tell you this : it really does make for a *relaxed* loving
	relationship when another pregnancy is not desired. Performance is, if
	anything, enhanced by the lack of worry and anxiety.

	My verdict.......worth every penny; don't regret it one bit;
			 recommended for peace of mind as well as body

	Hope this may be of use to anyone considering it.

	Bob 

    
    A little humor....the diagnosis for the vascectomy as written by
    the doctor:
    
                       "Acute anxiety of causing pregnancy"
                              
    ...and my wife's response: "...especially if it isn't mine..."
    

    My SO has a button which reads
    
    "Vasectomy
    
    Juice without seeds"
    
    
    
    It's a wonderful feeling living with someone who has had a vasectomy.
    If I were monogamous, it would be even better ;-). However, I still am
    on the Pill, because I will not trust MY reproductive capability to
    anyone else's precautions. 
    
    I know quite a few men who have chosen this option and I don't know
    any who are dissatisfied or unhappy with their decision. But, in
    all fairness, the majority of them didn't want any children at all,
    they weren't just limiting their family.
    
    Tamzen

        A friend of mine works for a MIcro-surgeon. His (the surgeon)
        comment about Vasectomies is that, given that they are properly
        done in the first place, they are 100% reversible by a competent
        microsurgeon. Which makes me happy about having one, but I
        think I should really have some kid(s) first...
        
        q
        

    

>        I think I should really have some kid(s) first...
                 ^
                 |
    
 	That MIcro-surgeon must be better than any in the States!!!
    :-)
    
    GOG

    Re .10:
    
    If you had your vasectomy done 3-1/2 weeks ago, I hope it hasn't
    improved your sex life too much yet, since some live sperm may
    linger for a month or two!
    
	-Neil

    I won't recommend this to anyone, just pointing out an alternative.
    
    Partial hysterectomy.
    
    No more monthly menstrual cycles to contend with.  100% NON reversible.
    She doesn't need to take hormone pills, as in a full hysterectomy.
    Greatly reduces the chance of cervical cancer because there is no 
    cervix.  Female exams only once every 5 years.
    
    More complex than a vas, requiring surgery and a few days downtime.
    Some men can't accept the fact the their wife is 'hacked up' and
    part of her is missing.  It can be a mental trip that needs to be
    considered.
    
    If this sounds acceptable, do a lot of research and talk to your
    doctor.  It is final, no going back if you change your mind.  
    
    
    
    Spence

    .15
    
    A little more than a few days downtime.  
    
    I am sure you are aware of the operation to prevent prostrate cancer!
    
    ;-)

    No cancer is good, but I'm sure prostrate cancer is better than
    *prostate* cancer.
    
    :-)

    re .15:
    
    Tubal ligation is a simpler operation than partial hysterectomy,
    less damaging, with fewer side effects.  It doesn't mess up monthly
    cycles either - a woman who had one would still menstruate each month.
    So obviously this procedure won't affect hormones either.  I *think*
    it can be done as an outpatient procedure, depending on which type
    of tubal ligation procedure is chosen.
    
    	-Ellen

    re .18
    
    Very interesting. Please expand as to what actually is involved
    with this procedure.

re: 19

Tubal Ligation is a procedure where an incision is made below the 
bellybutton into which the doctor inserts a microscope of some medical type 
and does a small incision thru each of the fallopian tubes therefore 
preventing the egg from reach the uterus to be fertilized.  I had one done in 
1974 and it is wonderful!  Maybe someone can come up with a more medical 
explaination.  All I can say is it's great because there is nothing *ever* 
to worry about.

Angeline

    Tubal ligation is  the same as a woman "having her tubes
    tied". It can be done through an abdominal incision - i.e. after
    a C-section, or it can be done by the belly button operation.
    The belly-button operation uses a fiber optic tube for the doctor
    to view the fallopian tubes. The doctor either removes a portion
    of the fallopian tubes and sutures the free ends, or cauterizes
    (burns) the tubes in the middle. The latter method is considered
    more reliable. The woman can be awake for the operation and can
    go home the same day. I also had one done in 1974 and I agree it
    is wonderful. (I even got to look down the fiber optic tube at
    my insides which I found quite fascinating!)
    
    Bonnie

    All I have seen is positive responses on the subject of a Vas. 
    I would like to contribute some to the "other side."
    
    I had a vasectomy 7 years ago after having 4 children. All in all,
    I would do it again, but I do wish I had known a little better what
    I was in for.  It would have made it easier to take.  
    
    	1.  There is little pain - In my case, this is Garbage.  There
    certainly was pain, and a lot more than going to the dentist.  If
    you walk in expecting little pain, you can't back out in the middle
    when it starts to hurt, so don't set yourself up to think there
    won't be.  I don't know about you, but I am very sensitive in that
    part of my body, and anasetic or no, I felt the cutting, and it
    HURT!  Now you might say it was my doctors fault, I don't know,
    but I do know you don't get up suddently and leave.  Your there
    for the whole nine yards.  When I was through, I was expected to
    get up and walk out.  Ha.  Hobble is about the best I could do,
    and it hurt too.  I would suggest having someone waiting to help
    you out, and by all means do things like drive the car up to the
    door.  You are not going to want to walk any more than you have
    to.  For that matter, I think you should leave in a wheelchair,
    so if this can be arranged in advance, I would advise it.
    	2.  I had mine done on a Friday, believing I would be fine to
    work again next monday.  If you can avoid doing this, I would advise
    that too.  I was not in good shape the next monday, and could barely
    get around.  I went to work anyway, but moving was slow, and to
    make matters worse, I worked on the second floor in Bedford, and
    going up the stairs were MURDER.  It is also awkward when people
    notice you are having trouble moving around and ask what's wrong.
    In a working environment, I tend to collect a lot of aquaintances
    who are not close enough for me to be comfortable telling them whats
    wrong, and who I also don't want to offend or act stuffy to.  Your
    better plan what to say in advance.
    	3.  It won't take long to get over - WRONG.  It will take longer
    than you think.  For the first month, even thinking about sex would
    hurt.  I don't know how long it was before the pain completely went
    away during sex, but it was a while, so don't expect differently.
    	4.  It won't feel any different when you have sex - Don't believe
    it.  I have no idea how it feels for others, but it felt different
    for me.  Eventually this goes away, but I don't know whether it
    is because things return to normal, or because you forget the way
    it use to feel.  Don't get me wrong, I am not saying sex will not
    still be fun, but don't be surprised if it feels different and say
    to yourself "nobody every told me this."  I am telling you now.
    For those of you who would say it is all in my mind, I would disagree,
    because I did not expect it to feel different.
    	5.  There will be no complications.- Hopefully, and I can
    truthfully say there weren't in my case.  That was not true for
    one of the people I use to work with, so take care of yourself,
    and if you notice anything funny like swelling where there is not
    suppose to be swelling, go to your doctor fast.  He tried to ingnore
    it thinking it would go away, with painful consequences.
    
    As I said originally, if I had it to do all over again, I would
    still do it.  The benefits are great.  But know what the possible
    consequences are, and you can get yourself mentally prepared and
    avoid an rude shock.
    
    DRC

    
    drc:  Who was you doctor?
    
    dr. hackandsaw?
    
    or dr. cutandpaste?
    
    :-))))
    
    Seriously, you are the miniority.  matter of fact, you are only
    the second one I have heard that regretted the vas.  So far, there's
    14 friends who has had this done and one had problems.  Include
    the count from this note and thats about 20.  2 bad in 20, that's still
    pretty good.

    GOG
    

    Well here's 3 in 20!
    
    I had mine done by a Doctor my own Doctor recommended. I didn't
    have all the pain the DRC had but You do feel the needle. Oh Boy
    do you!
    I could walk, dance, whatever no problem. Followed the Doctors advice
    to a "T" and still I'm borthered by pain. Will see another Doctor
    tomorrow. I've had all sorts of pills and nothing works. The Doctor
    said "This is something you hear about but is never written up!"
    Also said might have to reverse the operation. Ho Ho! Once is enough.
    
    But I'd do it all over again! Better me under a local than the wife
    under a complete operation, Bandaid or not!
    
    I don't feel anything different still as great as ever, except for
    the pain like a good swift kick to the groin!
    
    Still the best thing I feel, no more worries. The best part was
    just as I had this done, 4 months ago, the pill went to $16. We
    were paying $3 for a while.
    
    For all the grief and whatever I'd still say it's the way to go.                                                                  
                                     
    Cal.
    

    definition of a macho man......
    
    jogging home from your vasectomy :-)
    
    Fra

    
    
    
    	Without going into the gorey detail. What is the procedure for
    one??
    

    The Vas Deferens is the tube that the sperm have to pass through
    to get from the testicles to some place where they can actually
    do something.  A vasectomy severs the vas deferens (permamently,
    in theory, though it can sometimes be reversed surgically, and
    VERY rarely it heals spontaneously).
    
    The scrotum and the vas are an�sthetized with a local an�sthetic
    (the injection into the vas is moderately painful, for the minute
    or so until it takes effect).  A small incision is cut in the
    skin of the scrotum.  A loop of the vas is fished out and cut;
    the ends are then sealed (methods include suturing, metal clips,
    and electro-cautery).  This process isn't painful, but you're
    constantly aware that *something* is going on; it certainly isn't
    pleasant.)  The vas is tucked back in and the incision is stitched
    up.  This has to been done twice--once for each side; the entire
    process should take under half an hour.  An ice pack is recommended
    for the next six hours or so, and total (flat) bed rest for the
    next day, to minimize the chance of internal bleeding and other
    complications.
    
    Things are pretty much normal after a week or so; sex is allowed
    after two weeks.  Sex without any other contraception is possible
    after two consecutive sperm counts have shown NO sperm present;
    this can take several months.
    
	-Neil

    How does the shot compare to the novacaine shot at the dentist?
    
    Spence

    My ex, when he had his, said it made his toes curl (hum, I wonder
    if that is why he was walking funny???)

    Well, my toes curl when I have sex, but I wouldn't call it
    uncomfortable. ;-)
    
    Spence

    Re .29:
    
    Worse than the novocaine shot at the dentist, but not as bad
    as stubbing your toe on a piece of furniture.
    
	-Neil

    As a new DEC person, I just found notes and thought I would comment
    on this.
    
    I had a VAS in 1976 at a US Naval Hospital,(Navy Doctors not noted
    for being the most caring or adept), however, have never had any
    problems.
    
    It is true that the anesthetic injection is painful, but, nothing
    you can't tolerate.
    
    A friend of mine had his done at aproximately the same time and
    did have some problems, due to his own making.  His little girl
    fell off her bike and he had only been home one day at the time.
    Anyway, he took off running to find out if she was okay.  She was
    but, he did have some problems for a while (maybe a couple of weeks)
    and because of the exertion he had expended, he had quite a bit
    of swelling and pain.
    
    My father had a VAS in 1955 and was sold on it then, as I am now.
    I can't imagine not having one, if you are sure you don't want any
    more children.  I was told mine was not reversible and had to sign
    papers that indicated I understood that.

    Even I can translate .35:
    	"No possibility of artificial insemination?"
    
    This is a possible solution if a couple wants to have children and
    the mother is able to bear children, but the husband would not be
    the biological father.
    
    I have read that vasectomies done today have a good chance of being
    reversed, if care is taken at the start to allow for this
    possibility.  However, one cannot count on this.
    				Steve

	I had a vasectomy several days ago and will describe it in the 
following paragraphs.  Those who are upset by literal descriptions of body 
parts probably would do better to go to the next note.  Those who are 
thinking about having a vasectomy done,  these are my first impressions.

	Mine was performed on 21 May, Thursday, at 3:30 in the afternoon.  
This first entry is being made on Sunday 24 May.  For the sake of those who 
don't want to read this I'll now skip forward a page.  Anyone who would be 
upset by graphic descriptions of what my impressions are would be wise to 
not view the rest of this note.  For those who are comtemplating a 
vasectomy, I hope that this will help you understand better what you are in 
for.  I must say though that my experiance is just a solitary experiance 
and your's may be quite different.



















	I worked half a day Thursday and then went home to prepare for the 
vasectomy with several jibes from the guys at work.  Before I even went to 
the clinic I had to shower and shave the area around my testicles.  I 
hadn't anticipated the razor burn which seemed unavoidable.  One thing I 
did not expect at all.  The razor burn made me walk funny even before I had 
the operation.  And it did burn alot too.
	On the way to the clinic we stopped and picked up a jock strap 
since I was told to do this by the doctor before hand.  (We refers to my 
wife and I.)  When I arrived and my turn was up I was escorted to a room in 
the rear of the clinic by (what I assumed to be) a nurse.  The Physician's 
Assistant (PA) was already in the room.  The nurse told me to take all my 
clothes off except for my socks (!) and then she left the room.  The PA 
turned to me and said that he didn't understand why they always told 
people to do that, I agreed and took off all my clothes including my socks 
(somehow the idea of being completly naked except for my socks seemed to be 
"indecent").  The PA had me lay down on a surgical table with a couple of 
those surgury lights overhead.  He then washed my entire groin with that 
dark orange antiseptic soap or somthing (it looks like macurachrome (sp?) 
though it's more of a burnt orange color).  Then he took a paper sheet and 
covered my entire body up to my neck with it, positioned 2 trays on wheels 
over me (one over my belly and one over my thighs).  He then opened the 
door that the nurse went through and called out "Okay you guys we're 
ready".  The nurse re-appeared as did the doctor.  I might add that this 
entire time the PA and I were carrying on with a continual conversation.
	The doctor went to my right side and the PA went to the left side.  
The nurse went towards my feet and I didn't see her again until after the 
deed was done.  I couldn't see the doctor's face due to the tray and he 
being somewhat short.  The PA was over 6' and I could see his face.  I 
looked up and saw a LARGE needle (the kind they take blood with when you 
donate) in the doctors hand, he assured me that he wasn't going to stick me 
with that.  The PA said they use a very small needle (which he had in his 
hand).  He put that down (he was arranging things on the table) and picked 
up some sizzors which he then used to cut a small hole in the paper sheet 
right over my groin.  Then he lifted out my testicles so that they were the 
only thing showing.  (I don't know why but I always had the idea that would 
have been on a table with my feet in a set of stirrups.)  By this time he 
(the PA) had my complete attention.
	The PA told me to relax and stop looking down to see what was 
happening.  So I tried to do just that and then he picked up that needle 
again and I stiffened right up again.  Although it was very cool in the 
room I was warming due to all my muscles being tense.  He said I'd feel a 
prick and a kick.  That's what it felt like too though the sensation was 
not anywhere near as bad as being kicked.  All in all the pain was on the 
level of moderatly stubbing your toe though it only lasted a few seconds.

	He then cut the skin and started on his work.  I was not in pain.  
I was aware he was doing somthing.  The feelings were slightly uncomfortable 
due to the pulling, etc.  The entire time I was able to talk without 
effort.  If I felt pain when he did somthing then he bathed that area with 
the Novacain and the pain went away.  The most uncomfortable aspect of it 
was the sensation of the hemostats tugging on the tubes.  After he had cut 
out a section he used an electrical probe to cauterize the ends of the 
tubes.  (Funny to look down and see yourself "smoking in bed".)  I didn't 
even feel that though it does stink.  Then he sewed me up with 2 stiches.  
I didn't feel that either.
	Next it was the doctor's turn.  It was pretty much the same thing 
though each action hurt about 30-50% more since my body had been 
sensitized.  One thing though,  I don't know if he didn't put any Novacain 
on the skin or he just missed the spot but I sure did feel the cut.  I 
yelled OUCH! and he quickly asked what the problem was.  I told him and he 
immediately gave me another shot.  The pain went away in a second or two.
	The whole procedure took 15 minutes.  After they were done the 
nurse and the doctor again left the room and the the sheet was removed.  I 
was told to stay put and the PA got the jock strap and helped me get it on 
(even to the point of supporting my testicles as he lifted the strap into 
place (if you're modest before this operation you're not by the time it's 
done)).  I got dressed by myself and the PA showed me the 2 sections they 
had cut out.  Looks just like spagetti.  He told me several things (no sex 
for 2 weeks, no showers or baths for 24 hours, I was to stay in bed for the 
next 24 hours with an ice pack on my groin for the first 4 or 5 hours and
not to remove the jock strap for two days).
	I was given a chemical cold pack for the trip home which happened
to be about 30 minutes and off we went.  I must say that at this point I 
was feeling pretty good as the anesthesia hadn't worn off yet.
	When I got home I went right to bed with an ice pack and stayed 
there until late next morning.  I hit the bed about 4:30pm and took the ice 
pack off about 9:30pm.  I didn't remove the jock strp at all.  The next day 
(Friday) I stayed in bed until late morning at which time I figured that
anything was better than this boredom.  So I started to move about.  I was
stiff from laying in bed so long and I moved slow since when I moved suddenly 
or fast I pulled my stiches and it hurt.  I took it easy (my wife was a saint 
and my 3 kids were great).  We even went to the store late in the 
afternoon.  My testicles were very tender though.  I tried sleeping without 
the jock strap that night and gave up after about 5 minutes. (Guess he 
really meant 48 hours.)
	The following day (Saturday) I started to feel alot better though my 
Scrotum was having spasems that moved my testicles around alot and it hurt. 
 That night I looked and saw that the areas where they had cut in were 
black and blue (no wonder it hurt!).  I slept Saturday night without the 
jock strap.
	Sunday I feel much better though I still am tender in the 
testicles.  The iching of the hair growing back is starting to bother me.  
The black and blue has faded a great deal.
	Tuesday 26 May -  Monday morning I got up and felt great at first.  
When my oldest daughter got up and came downstairs (she's 4 years old) she 
rushed at me and caught me right in the groin with her head.
She rushed at me yelling "DADDY I LOVE YOU!!!".  Too bad she yelled that or 
I would have felt more justified in decking her (after I recovered...).  
(I didn't deck her, I just told her to be careful.  I did WANT to deck her.)
Anyway things slowly went down hill after that as I was constantly picking 
up kids and going up and down the stairs, etc.  By bedtime I was feeling 
very sore.  I took a look and one of the sites (the one where Kate hit me) 
was a very beautiful purple, magenta and blue color about the same size as 
my big toe.  I ached.
	Tuesday morning (26 May):  I am sore, first day back to work after 
the Memorial Day weekend.  Beautiful spot on me, colors are very vivid.  
Hair growing back itches alot too.  Hopfully today will be a day of 
recovery since I don't have to pick up any kids and I can spend most of the
day sitting.  I describe the procedure to some of the guys I work with.  
Barry bites his fingernails as I tell my tale.  Tuesday night I noticed that 
some of my stitches have fallen out.
	Wednesday morning (27 May):  I woke up for the first time and wasn't 
sore at all.  After walking around for about 5 minutes I started to get sore 
again.  The soreness was way down from yesterday though.  Iching is 
increasing.  I better get alot better before Saturday, my wife wants to 
start on a rock wall I supposed to build (not to mention the 3 chords of 
wood that need to be stacked).
	Thursday afternoon (28 May):  I woke up today feeling somwhat sore 
but not much.  My testicles have been very tender all day so far, but they 
aren't sore.  Seems that I'm going in cycles where I feel ok after a nights 
rest and then slowly go down hill all day.  Each day it gets better though. 
I noticed that all the stitches have fallen out on one side and that the 
black & blue areas on both sides are decreasing in size.  All things 
considered, this is the first day I've had where I don't have a constant 
ache.
	Friday morning (29 May):  Today is pure pleasure.  While my testicles 
are still tender I have no soreness.  I can walk with very little discomfort.
The only concern I do have is that the cut which the stitches fell out of 
already doesn't seem to be completly healed.  I get the impression that 
with very little effort I could rip the hole open again.  I've put a band 
aid on it to protect it.  The black and blue marks are continuing to 
decrease in size.  They are now about the size of my thumbnail.
	Monday morning (1 June):  As of Sunday morning I've had no soreness at
all, even forgeting that I had the operation at long periods of time.  The 
amount of tenderness had gone done greatly too and the black and blue marks 
are now fading whereas before they were just shrinking in size.  By this 
morning the black and blue marks had all but disappeared.  The itching from 
the hair has decreased to a large extent too.  The only itching I have now 
is from the cuts every now and then due to their healing.  I can even race 
up the stairs without discomfort now.  My wife looks better every day!  
Come on Friday!!!!

We have a go for SEX!!!!
	Monday morning (June 8):  I had my 2 week checkup on Friday 
afternoon.  The PA had me drop my draws for about 5 seconds so he could 
feel the areas that were cut.  Then he told me to bring in my first sperm 
sample in 6 weeks (8 weeks from the operation).  That was it.  I felt fine 
all last week with little tenderness.  This weekend my wife and I stacked 
almost 3 chord of wood so I guess this is the end of the tale.  Bye bye!

Rich

    Rich,
    Thanks for sharing this account with us.  Although I don't plan
    on ever having it done, I've often wondered exactly what it involves.
    Very informative.  I admire your courage and time spent to write
    it all out.
    
    Spence

    Yes, Rich, that was very detailed and it kept me interested.  Although
    I will never need this operation, someday, when married, with kids
    and I don't desire to have anymore, I will be more sensitive to
    this process in the event that this is the chosen form of permanent
    conception control.
    
    Cathy

    Geez, all this talk makes me want to run right out and get snipped.
    One problem though... I sure could use a recommendation for a Dr.
    in the Worcester/northboro/marlboro area. Being new to this part
    of the country I want to make a careful selection. I want to find
    a Dr. who has done LOTS of V's, not some one who's gonna say ....
    " Golleee I always wanted to work on one of those foreign job.."
    know what I mean Vern...?

	Greetings.  I looked into MENNOTES for the first time with the hope of
finding a discussion like this.  I am relieved that many replies have found this
procedure to be nowhere's near as frightful an operation as I would have 
thought.

	But there is an absense of discussion concerning my greater concerns
about vasectomies - the long-term affect.  With this in mind, I pose the 
following questions;

	1)  What happens to the sperm produced after the operation?  I have 
always assumed the testicles continue to produce throughout life.  Are there
any inherent problems implied by excess sperm build-up?

	2)  Some time ago, I was instructed how to detect the presence of
testicular cancer, and recall it usually residing in the vas deferens.
Has there ever been studies done that relate the effect and probabilities of
testicular cancer for males having had a vasectomy?  Are there any long-term 
side-effects like increased possibility of cancer or other serious illness?

	Thanks for any help regarding these issues.  I have always been
hesitant to consider vasectomy as a viable alternative due to the fear of
kick-back later in life.  But as my wife would rather not take permanent
measures on her body, (and we have all the children I think I can handle!)
it is left to me to research this as a possibility.

	Dan Eaton

>    	1)  What happens to the sperm produced after the operation?  I have 
>always assumed the testicles continue to produce throughout life.  Are there
>any inherent problems implied by excess sperm build-up?

    It doesn't build up. It's absorbed back into the body (recycled
    I guess). That process takes place even with out a vasectomy if
    you go a few days without having sex.
    
    			Alfred

    re: .42
    
    This process is called DSB (deadly sperm build-up) and has been
    known to cause males to do some extremely strange, uncharacteristic
    things like apologize to their girlfriend/wife even when they know
    they are right. ;-) In some obscure cases, the DSB has gotten so
    severe that it has entered the brain and caused insanity. 8-)
    
    Mike

RE < Note 10.42 by VCQUAL::THOMPSON "Noter at large" >

	(Realizing my reply to VCQUAL::THOMPSON may have been taken the wrong 
	way, I have deleted it and posted a re-wording of the reply.)

>>    	1)  What happens to the sperm produced after the operation?  I have 
>>always assumed the testicles continue to produce throughout life.  Are there
>>any inherent problems implied by excess sperm build-up?

>    It doesn't build up. It's absorbed back into the body (recycled
>    I guess). That process takes place even with out a vasectomy if
>    you go a few days without having sex.

	I take exception.  If I go without sex for a few days, my body will
expell the excess build-up automatically through a nocturnal emmission.  I
assume sperm are included in this, but I can't speak authoritatively.  When
a vascectomy has been performed, this natural expulsion process is defeated.
How does the body then react?
    
	Dan

    RE: .44
    
    That happens *every* time you go with out sex for a few days? Has
    this been the case since puberty? I doubt it. If so, you may have
    a medical problem. That is *not* the normal way the body handles
    un used sperm.
    
    			Alfred

RE < Note 10.45 by VCQUAL::THOMPSON "Noter at large" >

>    If so, you may have
>    a medical problem. That is *not* the normal way the body handles
>    un used sperm.

	Would anyone else care to offer comment on this statement?  Admittedly,
the last time I heard any authoritative word on this phenomenon was in a health
class in college, but I assumed it was not something limited to puberty.

	Dan

    Everything I have read agrees with Alfred, as well as my own
    experience.
    				Steve

    The occurrence of nocturnal emissions in adult males is something
    on the order of less than one per year. At least this is what I
    was taught in Biology of Sex. I also just read (sorry, I have no
    idea where) that the frequency of women having orgasm during sleep
    is much smaller, like 1 out of some-very-large-number(hundreds or
    thousands) and only maybe once or twice in a lifetime.
    
    Tamzen

    re.48
    i like to know what you were reading!!!!!!!!!!
    
    kelly
    (one in a thousand i guess)

    Re: .49
    
    Your wife's gynecologist is correct - sperm is a miniscule contribution
    to the fluid volume of semen.  Your doctor perhaps should be in
    another business....
    				Steve

    Last night I checked in my Biology reference books.  The seminal
    fluid is manufactured by the prostate, the Cowper's glands and 
    the seminal vesicles. The amount emitted is normally between 3 and
    5 ml. The cells produced by the testes make up a very small amount
    of this volume. After a vasectomy, the spermatozoa are reabsorbed
    in the epididymus. The only long term effects that were mentioned
    were that a man could begin developing antibodies to his own
    spermatozoa as a result of this break down. This would only be a
    problem if he later attempted to reverse the operation. Even with
    the vas deferens reconnected the antibodies would prevent the
    manufacture of viable sperm cells.
    
    And as to checking for testicular cancer...I am not familiar with
    this, but the vas deferens is cut away from the testes...so that
    any structures on the organs themselves (such as the epididymus)
    would not be changed by the operation.

RE .45 & .48

	It has been my understanding that the frequency of nocturnal emmissions
is based almost entirely on amount of sexual activity.  Thus, someone very
sexually active will be less likely, if ever, to have one.  Someone who is
sexually non-active will be a prime candidate for this as it is the body's way
of dealing with excess seminal fluid and/or sperm.  So to make a general 
statement on the frequency of nocturnal emmissions without taking sexual
activity into account would be contrary to the nature of the biological
function.  Again, I claim no expertise on the subject, and I am interested in
any evidence to prove this otherwise.

	Perhaps another question that this discussion poses is to ask what 
material build-up do nocturnal emmissions seek to alleviate?  Is it the seminal
fluid alone?  The spermatozoa?  Both?  An answer to this question may better
lead to answering the questions I originally asked, and resolve the confusion.

RE .52

	Thank you for checking into this.  A very thorough answer.

	Now, I would say the logical next question would be 'have there been 
statistics drawn up based on the number of serious illnesses or complications
that have occured in males that have had a vasectomy?'.  How many years have 
vasectomies been performed?  Has there been enough time to draw reasonable
conclusions as to the long-term effects of the procedure?

	Dan

    Re: .50
    
    I'm with you! Hey, with all this nonsense about nocturnal emissions
    being related to how much sex you have, I wonder if nocturnal orgasms
    are related to how many orgasms you're having! Yow! Another thing
    to be insecure about!
    
    ;-)
    
    	-- Charles

RE < Note 10.54 by OPHION::HAYNES "Charles Haynes" >

	Is it possible to carry on this conversation a little more seriously?
I have some honest questions and concerns, and it bothers me more than a little
to see this kind of statement.  If you have an opinion on the subject (which 
seems apparent), would you mind elaborating rather than simply calling something
nonsense?

	I have not been around this conference much, so I am not aware if this
is or is not a place to express valid concerns, or a place for men to joke 
around about topics that would not be appropriate elsewhere.  I was hoping it
to be the former.  If it's not, would someone please let me know so that I won't
waste time and cause myself unneeded embarassment?
    
	Dan Eaton

    I'm sorry you were bothered. Are you aware of the "smiley face"
    convention? I was making a joke. If it seemed to be at your expense,
    I apologize, that wasn't at all what I intended.
    
    I thought it was clear from previous notes that nocturnal emissions
    were normal, usually stopped after puberty, and were not normally
    related to how much sex you were having. If you are concerned about
    nocturnal emissions, I would contact your doctor and talk to him
    or her about it. Personally, if I had nocturnal emissions two or
    three times a week, I wouldn't worry about it. However, if your
    nocturnal emissions are not associated with erotic dreams or fantasies,
    or orgasm, then they *might* be associated with some condition of
    the prostate. I'm truly NOT an expert on the subject, and again
    would suggest talking about this with your doctor.
    
    As I understand it, this notes file is a place to express concerns
    (valid or not), a place to joke around with topics (appropriate
    elswhere or not), and, like most notes files, a place where
    misunderstandings are commonplace, and flames often result.
    
    I think you were being oversensitive, but then I may just have
    misunderstood your reaction. People often have misconceptions,
    especially about sexual topics, and are often embarrassed and defensive
    about them. Sometimes this can be alleviated with a touch of humor,
    sometimes the humor just makes things worse.
    
    Please don't go away mad, please don't just go away. Please do continue
    to raise your concerns, but also relax a little, eh?
    
    	Life's too short,
    	-- Charles

RE < Note 10.56 by OPHION::HAYNES "Charles Haynes" >


	Thanks, Charles for the explanation.  I did see the smiley face, and 
am aware of the convention.  I just felt particularly put down by the humor.
Apology accepted and appreciated.

	I have never heard of the notion that nocturnal emmissions 
(w/accompanying erotic fantasies) stopped after puberty (and apparently my body
hasn't heard that either).  I'd be interested in researching this idea further.

	Dan

    Re: .57
    
    I think Charles' point was that nocturnal emissions that DO accompany
    erotic fantasies ARE normal and DO continue into adulthood, but
    such emissions WITHOUT accompanying erotic fantasies are not
    normal and if this is common for you, perhaps a visit to your doctor
    is in order.
    				Steve

                <<< TAMARA::SYS$VTXLIB:[NOTES]MENNOTES.NOTE;1 >>>
                         -< Topics of Interest to Men >-
================================================================================
Note 193.0                     A word to the wise                     No replies
VOLGA::D_DUVERGER                                     6 lines   1-DEC-1987 12:28
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I had one Im still living but the doctor died...
    the bad part is during my recent divorce after 16 years of marriage
    It cost me thousands of dollars to fight to keep my two loving kids.
    my x still can have more I cant...... a word to the wise.......
    
                                                    Doug

    For those who havent experienced a vasectomy and are afraid
    of pain during the process.  My doctor (Tripathi) gave me
    a shot of Levrprome (or whatever the stuff is).  during the
    operation I felt pain only one during a zylocain injection.
    
    I dont know if one can request this, but it sure worked great
    for me.
    
    Thanks
    
    Jim 
    

    I believe that means that 1 in 1000 vasectomies don't work for some
    reason (doctor ties the wrong tube, doesn't tie it, it finds a way to
    repair itself).  If it doesn't work, it can result in any number of
    pregnancies, unless other measures are taken.  BTW, the 1 in 1000
    figure is "over a lifetime".  By comparison, the pill has a failure
    rate of about 4 in 100 per YEAR (depends on the exact type of pill).
    Female sterilization has a failure rate of about 2 in 100 over a
    lifetime.  Vasectomy is probably the method of birth control least
    likely to fail that is available to date. 
    
    Elizabeth
    
    

                FWIW, I told my Dr.  that I had a *very* low pain 
                threshold and was  nervious  about  the novacaine 
                injection.  He gave me 10 cc's of Valium IV and I 
                never had more fun in  surgery.   Try it - you'll 
                like it.
                
                Nine years later and no additional kids....
                
                Warren

    There seems to be another source of failure that most people forget
    about. After a vas the gland (Cowpers?) has to be fully drained of
    sperm. We used to kid the guys who had this done in the service that
    we'd post an observer outside the shower to verify that he drained his
    glands. We supported this threat by saying that Navy vasectomys were
    guarrenteed only by observing that the man did infact drain his gland.
    This got to be a fun joke to play on the guys... 

    I have read a lot of testimonials about the wonderfulness of
    vasectomies.  Yet, I wonder.
    
    I have had 2 close friends who had them done, after having the number
    of kids they wanted. Then they either divorced or lost a child,
    and were bitterly remorseful for having had it done.  It is so
    permanent and life is full of uncertainties.
                         
    We lost a child and the greatest therapy for my wife and me was
    having another child soon after.  
    
    On another note - did any of you clipped men feel a loss of manhood,
    not being able to father a child?  I think about how some women
    feel after menopause or sterilizations.  
    
    One comment about nocturnal emissions - I have heard that they are
    a response to stress.

Very interesting inputs from various sources here.  Odd how many differ in
opinion (or observation) as to the pain involved, the procedure, the after-
effects, etc.  Here's my experience.

After our second child was born we gave it (the big Vas) considerable thought
and decided it was a viable alternative to pills, creams, et al.  I had mine
done over ten years ago.  No noticable side effects.  No sense of loss of
manhood - either physical or psychological.

The doctor didn't give me a shot of anything before the operation, just a
surface application of a local anesthetic.  He warned me just prior to his
snipping each tube that it would "pinch a bit", which it did.  Maybe it was
more than just a pinch, but I thought that closely described the sensation.

I left within a few minutes.  No jock strap.  No prescribed ice pack or staying
in bed for 48 hours.  Granted, it is highly recommended to take it easy for a
few days.  I drove myself home (approximately 12 miles, but automatic trans!)
This was a Friday and I went to work the following Monday, but still had to
move about v e r y   s l o w l y.  I can't remember now how long after, but
within a couple of weeks I went back and had the stitches removed, and if I
recall, they were mostly out anyway.  Yes, it itched while the hair grew back.

Regarding not being able to have any more children:
This is a tough decision to make when that realization hits you.  There is (for
us, at least) considerable counceling with your doctor to ensure you are happy
with your [number-of-] children-status.  With two or more they seem less likely
to try to talk you out of it but they insist that you understand the hard
implications.  My wife and I are at the age(s) now where we simply wouldn't
want another diaper to change, but it was a tad difficult at the time knowing
that "two was it" because we were both still relatively young.  As all parents
do, we tried not to dwell on the thought of losing either child.

Regarding nocturnal emissions:
Sex is a great reliever of stress, therefore it stands to reason that nocturnal
emissions could render the equivalent (though I'm not suggesting that stress
causes the emissions).  However, to suggest that they stop after puberty is to
suggest that one stops thinking of sex after puberty.  Absurd!  A lack of any
type of sexual release would appear to be the main cause of 'wet dreams', with
relief from stress being a beneficial side-effect.

Kip

    Re: -2
    
    They are not ALWAYS permanent...  I know one who got it reversed..
    so, if those men who got divorced REALLY wanted more kids.... they
    COULD have it undone....

    We have a friend who had his "V" reversed.  He had 3 sons from a 
    previous marriage.  After getting married the second time, they 
    decided to have a kid between them.  It took them a few years and 
    wearing boxer shorts, and now have a darling daughter.
                  
    Judy

    RE: Boxer shorts..
    
    That one is easy to explain (thanks Ann Landers).. Jockey shorts
    keeps mens testicles close to their body, heated, so they don't
    create as many sperm as they do hanging lower in boxer shorts,
    away from their body (and the heat that kills them off).

    Well let us say if a couple is having problems conceiving,
    when all other things seem normal, swtching to boxer shorts 
    and elminating tub baths in favor of showers, has been followed
    by a baby in a good sized sample of couples.

    RE: .71
    
    That is what Annn Landers is preaching (and she has all the experts
    at her fingertips)...

RE: .73
	
	Oh really Gale? (mike says with a raised eyebrow and a thought
	of Ann holding onto the family jewels..)

							mike

    My husband had a vascetomy 9 years ago. I had lost 3 babies had
    and had two healthy ones.  After our last child was born my doctor
    talk to us both and recommended that my husband have the surgery
    due to me having had so many problems with my last preg. and having
    had so many cyst on my ovaries. We talked it over and decided that
    since he had a child by another marriage he was sure he would never
    want another child but he felt strongly that if we divorced I might
    want to have another baby.  He had his surgery in my doctors office
    and when it was over instead of going home to bed he decide we should
    drive to the coast and go fishing.  He carried serveral heavy objects
    to our boat and so forth.  I guess he was not to bright because
    that night he was in a lot of pain but was fine after a good night
    sleep.  It has never seemed to affect his manhood, in fact our sex
    life has been better then ever. Two years ago I had to have a 
    hysterctomy, I was in a great deal of pain for 4 weeks and moderate
    pain for 2 more, I could not drive or hardly move for the first
    4 weeks, I returned to work after 6 weeks but was still very 
    uncomfortable with tight clothing.  In all I think the vast. was
    easier on him, which he agrees!
        
	    

    	Is there any method for collecting semen without reversing the
    	vasectomy.  If so how complicated/costly would that be?  Does 
    	anyone know the success rate on the reversal operation?

    Well, with a vasectomy, there is semen, just no sperm.  I can't quite
    see how one could collect the sperm separately and have never heard
    of it being done.  I HAVE heard of men "banking" their sperm in
    advance of having a vasectomy.
    
    The success rate of reversal varies dramatically depending on the
    method used and the skill of the respective doctors.  If you are
    thinking about getting a vasectomy but worry that you may want it
    reversed sometime, discuss this with your doctor (who will probably
    tell you to forget it - reversal isn't guranteed no matter what
    you do.)
    
    If it were me, I'd probably go for the sperm bank method.
    
    					Steve

    To my knowledge efforts to go into the testes to harvest sperm
    cells in the cases of men with vasectomies has been unsuccessful.
    Apparently the process of moving through the vas and the various
    bodily chemicals that the cells are exposed to are necessary for
    the sperm to become 'viable' i.e. able to swim and fertilize an
    ovum.
    
    It has been a long time since I read much in this area, however,
    and would be interested to find if anyone has more recent information.
    
    Bonnie

    	  Well, I am a woman, so I wasn't really thinking of getting
    	a vasectomy, hah,hah, I was just curious.  Theoretically, a
    	woman's ovum can be collected even if her tubes are tied
    	I believe.  Maybe some day everyone will get their tubes
    	disconnected, and all babies will be made in a test tube.
    	Future shock.  Then all pregnancies would be planned.
    	  I just read an article that men who are paralyzed and
    	do not have a sexual response can become fathers.  They
    	use electrical stimulation to bring about ejaculation.
 	  Linda

    I had a vasectomy in 1972, it seemed most appropriate at the time.
    I was subsequently divorced and remarried after several years. 
    My new spouse had a son by her first marriage but wanted more children
    so we looked into a reversal.  In 1979 there were but few places
    that did reversals, if I remember correctly one on the west coast,
    one in Notrh Caorlina and one in the mid west.  Fortunately for
    us a new doctor had come to our area from one of these clinic that
    had been performing reversals.
    
    I had the operation and my wife became pregnant approximately 14
    months after.  That pregnancy resulted in a tubular pregnacy and
    was terminated.  I am happy to report that there were two subsequent
    pregnancies that resulted in a girl and then a boy.
    
    The doctor that did the reversal is in Greenfield Mass and his name
    is Dr. Swanson.  I do not remember his first name.  His success
    rate was 100% at the time when I had my operation.

    I also had a vas after my second child was born, in 1986. The doctor
    explained that reversal of a vas is quite possible. The tubes can
    be reconnected with a success rate of almost 100%. The problem of
    fertility is a separate issue. Over time the body's ability to produce
    a sufficient number of viable sperm decreases (see reply .52). 
    
    My recollection of the doctor's explanation is that after approximately
    10 years the reduction in amount of viable sperm is about 50%.
    This is a very fuzzy number - the variability is great in the amount of 
    viable sperm that can be produced. 
    
    My doctor explained in detail the procedures and probabilities of
    successful reversal in two separate counseling sessions before
    performing the operation. Better statistics than my two year old
    recollections are available. 
    
                      - Joe     
    

A recent conversation with someone on a related subject prompted me to refer
back to this note. I thought I had entered a reply previously but my perusals
just now indicated otherwise, so I'll add my two cents now.

(Next reply if you don't necessarily want details)



We had agreed that two was going to be the limit for us even before we got
married so after my youngest was born in late '73 I began preparing myself
for the big "V". I spoke only to one doctor, an old fashioned GP on the
south side of Syracuse, NY, where I grew up. He consulted with me (only, not
my wife) over the phone and explained the procedure he was going to use.
I made an appointment for the following Saturday AM at 9.

The day before the appointment his RN called me to inform me that "regulations"
required that my wife be present. I explained that that was impossible as we
had a baby and a two year old with no one to watch them. She ruefully allowed
that a written note of recognition of intent ( i.e. consent form?) would be
acceptable under the circumstances. Wondering why the Doc hadn't told me about
this earlier, I called the office back later and asked to speak to him. He
laughed and told me that she was "from the old school". I had my wife write
such a note that night - in crayon!

Anyway, the next day I got up early and drove 35 miles to Syracuse for the
surgery. No shaving or other prep was requested. Lay down on the table with
my trousers and shorts dropped to my ankles, legs hanging over the end. I
got doused with some betadine and then he warned me that there would be a sting
from the novacaine (twice). A few minutes later he began cutting and I never
felt a thing until he tugged on the vas - that was generally like a pull or
a squeeze. Didn't feel the clipping or the stitching. Twenty minutes later
I was sitting up with some absorbant pads in my shorts and a general numbness
down there. By 9:45 I was in the car driving home with a stop on the way at
a drug store to have the percodan prescription he'd given me filled.

It was after I was home (probably 1 PM or so) before the novacaine wore off.
There wasn't really any pain at first, just a dull ache. It got a little
worse (I recall describing it as if someone had hold of me with a nutcracker)
but those lovely little percodans did a good job of alleviating it. By Sunday
evening the only sensitivity that remained was if I wasn't careful to avoid
undue contact with that part of my bod. Stairs, walking, sitting, etc. were
no problem at all. (Oh yes, I do recall that sitting was somehow preferable
to lying down and I did not use any ice packs - tried once but it seemed to
make it worse. One other hint if you're contemplating it - make sure to take
a laxative or otherwise avoid undue strains to the abdominal muscles.)

Went back to work on Monday with no problems. Normal relations about a week
and a half later. Sperm count was at zero a month after that. Never any
physical or psychological problems of any type since. 

I've got no complaints and I'd highly recommend it to anyone in preference to
any female surgery.

-Jack

    me too...my experience was just like -.1 
    
    i'd recommend this as the best way to prevent unwanted pregnancies.
    
    tony

    I got my vas a month ago. No real pain, just lot's of real concern
    about seeing my scrotum impaled upon a needle several times. (I didn't
    look. B^)
    
    Pain was minor. Xylocane does wonders.
    
    Now for the emotional aspects.
    
    I thought about getting a vas for about a year and a half. Picked up a
    book (The Vasectomy Book) that gave me all the medical details so I
    could make an educated decision.
    
    It seems that I don't like children running around, screaming for my
    attention, making me spend all my money on them, etc. I'd like to see a
    lover of mine pregnant but I won't take care of the child. I have a
    child of my own, ME! No 20 year stints of snot nosed kiddies trashing
    my house, scratching all my old albums and doing other irresponsible
    things. I can and do like to be around children for about 1 or 2 days,
    after that, get me the hell outta' there. 
    
    I agree with Tamazen, way back around .2 or .3. Reproduction is
    a personal responsibility and if a woman thinks that she will be
    with other men she should take responsibility for her body.
    
    That was my fear. When with fertile lovers I kept thinking that "I just
    can't do this. What if she falls deeply in love and get's pregnant just
    to keep me?" I must express my sexuality and utilize my reproductive
    options myself. I can't depend upon another to do that for me.
    
    Vasectomy is a great option. However, it doesn't replace safe sex
    practices.  
    
     

    Does anyone know the name of a doctor that has a great success rate
    of reversals in the Colorado Springs area??  How much does it cost?
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    I don't know how much it costs. My guess is in the $6,000 to $8,000
    range.
    
    There are other concerns too. Like how much of each vas removed.
    
    A vas can be reversed. But what is reversed? It doesn't take much
    surgery to reconnect the two vases. Fertility is another matter.
                                      
    You might try asking your doctor to recommend a good vascular surgeon.

    Dr. Vinne Boombatts!!

>    <<< Note 10.2 by RDGENG::LESLIE "Andy `{o}^{o}' Leslie, ECSSE, OSI." >>>
>    With 3 children and a stable (10 years) marriage, it's on my list
>    of to-do for next year.
>    �30 in Basingstoke as far as I know, for a quickie in a dentist
>    chair.
    
    Well, tomorrow's the day. Only its gone up to �95
    
    - Andy

    Well that was fun - trousers and pants around my knees, shirt pulled up
    a tad, then laid back on a dentists chair for 20 minutes.
    
    As the anaesthetic wears off, I'll know more about whether it hurts or
    not! :-)
    
    A

    heheheh are you in for a treat Andy....
    
    :-)
    
    JES DO WHAT THE DOC SAYS!!!  if you dont...that treat will turn
    into a full course meal!!!
    
    Al

    Well, it doesn't hurt, a dull ache and keep on quaffing the tylenol.
    
    - Andy

    love the P_N pal... :-)
    
    I nevr said it hurt... ges sore... :-)
    
    Hint...
    
    Keep the excitement level to a dull roar.... Dig??
    
    :-)
    
    al

    Well, everything seems almost back to normal - I played a game of
    squash on Wednesday with no ill feelings. I'll have to wait 3-4 months
    to ensure that I'm firing blanks, but all seems to have succeeded.
    
    Anyhow, my experience was as follows. (Form feed inserted here for
    the sqeamish).
    
    
    
    It's not for the squeamish, remember?
    
    
    
    Wendy and I arrived at the doctors surgery at 3pm. Had a quick
    interview as to "were we sure?" etc etc. I almost broke cover and ran
    like stink, but "courage mon brave" I said to myself....and Wendy was
    sent to a waiting room whilst I went into another room with a dentists
    chair in the middle. We were disappointed by this.
    
    No shaving was requested or performed.
    
    I was told by the nurse to drop trousers and knickers to my knees and
    sit on the chair and raise my shirt to the bottom of my ribcage. This
    was then reclined and raised.
    
    The Doctor then placed a paper sheet over me from abdomen and to knees
    with a strategically placed hole. Instruments then got strewn on this
    "tablecloth". 
    
    A hypodermic syringe was produced and I received an injection in the
    scrotum adjacent to the left testicle. I became rapidly numb and the
    Doctor then palpated to find the vas deferens. He then cut a small hole
    (no I wasn't watching - but I've examined the evidence!) and puled the
    tube out. This pulling hurt inside the pelvic girdle. I did my
    "breathing" learnt with Wendy in parents pre-childbirth classes and was
    okay. 
    
    Snip snip and a one inch length of red spaghetti was displayed for my
    amusement. I wasn't all that amused. He then sewed up both ends and
    sewed up the scrotum.
    
    This was then repeated on the right.
    
    I then got cleaned up somewhat and donned my clothes again.
    
    Total elapsed time: 20 minutes.
    
    Cost: �90, plus I'll have to pay �22 for the fertility tests later on.
    (�90=~US$170, �22=~US$40)
    
    We then went home (I drove okay). Some soreness became apparent after
    about an hour and I took Tylenol regularly for the next week. I also
    wore an athletic support as well as knickers for the next 10 days.
    
    One interesting effect was that I suffered a degree of clinical shock
    the evening of the op - no warning had been given. Symtptoms were close
    to those felt when I had concussion, hazy thoughts etc, light sleep
    that evening and a good LONG nights sleep that night and I was
    more-or-less okay. (Don't plan on going out the evening after!)
    
    Normal "relations" (lovely euphemism, eh?) were resumed within 48
    hours, albeit rather carefully. No impairment was obvious then or
    since.
    
    All in all, more pleasant than childbirth - and far cheaper in the long
    run.
    
    If you're think of having the kindest cut of all, feel free to mail me
    if you have any queries.
    
    - Andy ��� Leslie
    
    

	My experience was somewhat similar to Andy's but with a 
	couple of significant differences (this was '82).

		I was on a table, the normal table that the family 
		doctor does examinations on.

		The vas did not have a large section removed.  It
		was just cut and then the exposed ends tied.  This 
		also meant less pulling and no pain whatsoever.  
		The reason for tying the vas was that it had a good
		chance of being reversible if we changed our minds,
		or remarried or whatever.

		There were no aftereffects from the operation.  At 
		least not related to the vasectomy.

	At the same time as the vasectomy I had a piece of skin
	removed.  I was/am not circumsised and had a piece of skin
	that could get stretched real tight and give me pain.  From 
	that, a few days later, a blood vessel burst.  Can you image 
	sitting in emergency expalining to a nurse why you're bleeding
	profusely from your penis.  I even laughed about it at the time.

Bob

    Such memories....
    
    I had my vasectomy done last july. The major difference from the
    previous couple replys was that my vas was stapled on both ends
    and then tied. The reason, accoording to the surgeon, for the
    precaution was due, in part, to me. I was instructed to shave myself
    the morning of the surgery. Not having ever shaved myself before,
    I knicked myself. This caused bleeding that lasted for 2 hours.
    He had to cauterize the cut inorder to continue. I have always had
    difficulty in stopping the bleeding. He said that if I had internal
    bleeding, it could be a big problem. 
    
    
    Rick

    Having read through all of the "manuscriptal" references to the
    kindest snip of all, I would like to add my little bit.
     
    I had mine done on the 5th of May this year, having put it off
    and off for over two years. Last year my wife gave birth to
    a daughter( our fourth child ), so it was time to do the doings.
    
    I was to get it done shortly after her birth, but I delayed and
    delayed and delayed. The inevitable happened, baby number five.
    
    We discussed it in detail withour doc, and he arranged everything.
    
    I had the appointment for 6.00p.m. and was out within ( should that
    be without ) 20 minutes. I had to hitch a lift home, as the op was
    done thirty miles from my home place. It was the first time that
    I had ever been picked up by a beautiful young woman.
    I was to go out for a drink with a friend, ahic I had neglected
    to cancel, so before leaving inquired of the doc as to the
    ppossibility of me going for a few beers, his reply "No problem".
    
    I went out that night. I felt no pain. I had a little discomfort
    on the Saturday, but a good lie in took away most of it.
    I must be the exception to the rule as the only pain I had over
    the next couple of weeks was the itching and friction of the
    swelling against my legs, you know just like if you graze 
    your hand off a wall.
    
    If you want birth control, I would say" Go For It ", and have piece
    of mind.
    
    I am awaiting the outcome of the sperm count.
     
    Mart.

    I have a question. Has anyone that has had this done have any feelings
    of fullness in their testacles(sp). Blue Balls is a term I heard
    used one time.

    
    	No!!  This another of one of those "horror stories" that
    	often goes around on this subject. Another false one that
    	makes the rounds is you'll no longer climax. Outside of 
    	not producing sperm, no other effects!!!!
    
    	G_B (no-effect-after-19+-years-yet)
    		ps  no un-wanted babies either ;^}
    

    I would have to agree with the previous entry.  I had it done in
    March of 1980 after our second child.  And I have never felt cheated
    in the area of pleasure.  And I would have to also ditto his comment
    on "NO UNWANTED BABIES".
    
    	-Flash

    
    .100    Ditto   for   me.
    

            I had mine done 12 years ago, when my youngest was 1 year
       old.

            Being a devote coward, whenever the doctor says "this won't
       hurt very much", I take that to mean, it won't hurt him to do it.
       I chose to have it done in the hospital under anesthesia. I went
       in at 8:00 and was out by noon.  I watched some football on TV,
       and I watched Jane shovel snow (I had a great excuse not to).

            I had a sperm count done about 5 weeks after and another one
       done about 5 years after.

            There were no side effects and no babies.  Just as much fun,
       just as often.  When you are sure you're done having babies, I
       highly recommend it. 

            No pills, jells, and no wearing a raincoat in the shower. 

    I've had no problems in the "blue balls" class, even in time of high
    activity.
    
    Andy

    I just got clipped in August.  I had a sperm count done today and
    they found 1 dead sperm.  The nurse in the doctor's office said
    that that was unsafe, which was a surprise to me.  Does anyone have
    any information on what is considered "safe" or the probabilities
    of impregnation relative to other forms of birth control?  Obviously,
    "zero" is safe, yet I was very suprised to learn that one was not.
    
    CJA

    I think it's because there's no such thing as "slightly pregnant".
    
    A successful vasectomy means a zero count.  If any of those little
    squirmers can get through, it's not a successful vasectomy.
    
    Give it a little more time - you're probably still getting rid of
    debris, but why take chances?
    
    Ray

    OK.  There's lots of notes describing in detail the scary part...
    
    how about someone describing the "post" visits... sperm count trips...
    and whatever else is involved???
    
    Do they give you "Playboys" or show slides???  Furnish an assistant??? 
    Hand you a jar and point to the "john?"  Can you bring it in???  Is
    this the best part???  
    
    Seriously....
    
    Anyone care to enlighten us that are seriously considering this???
    
    Dwight

    You know the reply in the condoms note which talked about how much fun
    putting them on can be when you get help?  Well, the same is true of
    the sperm count test. 
    
    You collect the sample yourself (supplying your own assistant if you
    wish) and bring it in for testing - just get there fairly quickly and
    keep it warm.  It's not like a drug test - the clinic will trust you
    not to have collected someone else's ejaculation.
    
    The scary part is the worst part.  The soreness and lack of sex
    following the operation is unpleasant.  Waiting for those last damn
    spermatazoa to die off is tolerable.  And then it gets a whole lot
    better.  (: >,)

    My doctor said, "You have to provide the sample at the hospital."
    So I waltzed into the outpatient lab and declared, "I'm here to
    have a sperm count.  The woman behind the desk says,
    
    "Do you have the specimin?"
    "No."  I say.  "My doctor told me to go to the hospital."  So she
    disappears into another room and brings back a specimin jar and
    says, "You can just bring it in another day."
    
    I repeat, "My doctor insisted that I give the specimin in the
    hospital." (I really have no idea why.)
    
    So she looks at me and says, "We don't help with obtaining the
    specimin."
    
    *****
    
    Which leads me to another thought, have you ever tried to .... never
    mind.
    
    CJA

    THE BIG "V" IS DEFINETLY THE ONLY WAY TO GO
     I HAD IT DONE 2 YEARS AGO AND I HAVE HAD NO
    PROBLEMS AND NO REGRETS...

    I was really considering it, but I found out that it's linked to
    "high blood pressure" and "heart disease."
    
    Any way... "we" have resolved the problem and no longer have "any"
    worries!
    
    Dwight

DEC25::BERRY "OU EST LE SOLEIL"                       7 lines  15-NOV-1989 06:40
    
              -< no pills, no condoms, no ball-cutting parties! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
>    Any way... "we" have resolved the problem and no longer have "any"
>    worries!
    
   
    
    Dwight, so you've broken up???? :-)
    
      Alan

Re: .112

    Naw, maybe he's decided he's gay. Nope, that can't be it, he'd still
    need condoms!

Re: .111

    Seriously, where did you hear that vasectomy was related to high blood
    pressure and or heart disease? I've never heard such a thing and would
    like to follow it up. It sounds fishy to me.

	-- Charles

    re:  .112  Alan
    
    Some women have "birth control" taken care of..... forever!  :^)
    
    Dwight

    re:  .113
    
    >>>>    Seriously, where did you hear that vasectomy was related to
    high blood pressure and or heart disease? 
    
    From a doctor.
    
    Dwight
    

FWIW

I saw a show describing a new procedure for this operation.  The new procedure
reduces the cutting down to 2 holes.  This apparently reduces blood loss and 
improves recovery time.

Stan

Re: previous 2 replies:
(reduces cutting to 2 holes)
(Japanese - tiny 10 mm incision) "Makes me say YEOW"

I didn't realize this was new. (as I have only experienced this procedure
    once ;^) )I had mine done in April at Concord (N.H.)
Hospital by Dr. Green, of Concord Urology He didn't say anything about it being
new, but he made 2 incisions, each just about 10mm (3/8 of an inch). Actually,
he did it as two separate procedures, each taking about 15 mins. The only
negative was that I got 2 separate "novocain" injections, 15 mins apart.
(would have rather gotten it all over at once.) The ONLY thing I felt
during the entire operation was the injections; no pulling sensation or
anything! I was intentionally keeping a continual "intellectual" conversation
going with the nurse as a distraction. that probably helped.

I was very pleasantly surprised at how easy the recovery was. After having
heard several horror stories, I followed their instructions absolutely for the
first 2 days (ice all the time, and don't get up for anything the first day)
They prefer to do them on Friday a.m. to make following the rules easier.

"Makes me say Yeow" - yes, that is what I said at the time but it was much
less than I expected. They only inject the novocain into the skin, not into
anything else. The skin stung a lot for a few secs, but it didn't ache the way
trauma to the testicles does. It was very much like being stung by a wasp.

Bill

> It was very much like being stung by a wasp.

 Sign me up! (Just kidding.) Maybe I'm a wimp, but the mere idea of anything
having to do with needles or blades in that region makes me just a bit antsy.

 Hearing "Now only two holes," doesn't make me feel any better, either. "You 
mean there were MORE???!!"

 Yikes!

 Staying with the condom for now,

 The Doctah

Re: .115

I really would like to follow this up. Can you give me the name of the Doctor,
or anything else that would help?

	Thanks,
	-- Charles

re .119

The "old" procedure involved 2 incisions, healing/recovery time was longer.

I have heard the rumor of high blood pressure as a side effect, but I haven't
seen any documented evidence of it.

Stan

    A bit late in the discussion, but why not.....

I had my vasectomy done 13+ years ago, no shaving, little to no pain, a 
couple of days taking it easy but no real problem getting around. I was 
back at work the following day, enjoying intimate relations with my wife 
within a week, and generally thrilled with the whole thing! Done by a 
Urologist (?) on Rt 85 on Marlboro/hudson line. 20 minutes for procedure, 
doctor only, no nurse to help your embarrassment. Doc and I talked the 
whole time he worked, explained everything as he went.

The funny part was, a guy I worked with had one the next week, fully shaved, 
washed about 10 mins each by his wife and a nurse, and he could hardly move 
for about 48 hours.....He laughed at me because I paid more for mine....I 
still laugh at him for his discomfort! (I don't laugh at the rest of you, 
this jerk just deserved it!)

Would I do it again? Absolutely! (Although I never will have to....) No 
regrets, no second thoughts. Wife and I have been married 23+ years, we have 
two kids 19 and 14, and don't need any more! A great way to tell yourwife 
you really love her!

    Vic H

    	Re .37
    
    	Thanks to .-1 I was moved to read this entire topic.  I must
    	say that the description in .37 really took me back.  I could
    	feel it all over again and it was as real as the day I had it done.
    	That tells me alot.  It tells me that much of what I felt that
    	day was of my own fabrication.  (Actually I knew that was the case
    	already.  This just confirmed it.)
    
    	I do not take very well to foreign metal objects invading my
    	body.  Needles and scalpels are at the top of my unwelcome list.
    	When one of these objects penetrates, my mind and body awaits
    	the pain.  It expects it to the point that if the pain doesn't
    	exist, it fabricates it.
    
    	Of all the things that I really felt, the most uncomfortable was
    	the tugging when they fished out and clipped the vas.  And even
    	that didn't really hurt.  It felt more like someone was tugging
    	on my balls.  (Not yanking, but tugging.)
    
    	Recovery felt like I had on underwear that was two sizes two small.
    
    	And after all that, I never hesitate to recommend the big V as the
    	way to go.
    
    	Joe Oppelt

                         My "V" Experience
    
       Well it's been 9 days since "V"DAY, & I am still a bit
    uncomfortable, mainly because I am afraid of my wounds reopening while 
    I walk, this would not be a problem if the cuts were still stitched up
    but unfortunately most of the stitches have disappeared (should this 
    happen so soon?)
     The operation lasted 20-25 minutes, the novacane gave me pain for a
    few seconds & during those few seconds, I (not thinking) tensed up &
    this I believe was at fault for making my groin muscles sore for two
    days.
     Aside from the novacane shots the operation would have been pain free,
    a little bit O tuggin on the Vas (could barely feel it) & 1/2" section
    of Vas later,& it was all over with.
    
    I paid Kaiser $1.00 for the operation ( a reasonable price ).
    
    The Kaiser people told me to shave the area completely. I haven't had
    an itchy sensation yet, but after reading that most of you noters
    only shaved a little bit or not at all, I feel that if I had a bit more 
    hair down there I would feel more comfortable.
    
    By the way... I actually sat up and watched the Doc. do the operation
    on the second side, it was a strange feeling watching the cut ends of 
    my Vas get electrically burned & tied off.
    
      
     

    Well, I'm thinking about going for it.  Some more ?????.  
    
    Do they give you something for the pain afterwards?
    
    When shaving, is it just the testicals?  This seems to be somewhat of a
    precarious thing to do (even moreso than the operation).
    
    Did anyone have butterflies just thinking about it?
    
    Mike

    A freind told me about his one day while we were driving in
    his car.  I had to ask him to either stop talking about it,
    or pull over so that I could vomit on the pavement instead
    of on his dashboard...
    
    Yeah, butterflies...

    
    	No pain killers........
    
    	& you only have to shave where the insision is going to be or,
    	you can just have the nurse do it for you........I deceided I
    	would do it myself.  I ended up shaveing off way too much and
    	boy was it a pain in the ... when it grew back!  Itch, Itch, Itch!
    
    	It really wasn't that bad...the doc goes, tell me if this hurts,
    	as he's cutting into me with those hedge clippers...Yes! Yes, it
    	hurts.....then I get another shot in the nut....same thing on the
    	other side...then he starts pulling the line up to tie it off,
    	it felt like it was attached to my stomach.
    
    	Other than that....no problem!  hehehe
    
    	hw
    

    Gee thanks, I need all the encouragement I can get.  Dot they use a
    scalpal or those damn siccors which they use on the episiotome with
    women?
    
    Mike 

    
    
    Anytime, anyone sticks a needle in you b*lls, it's gotta hurt!

    I've had scores of dental procedures that were worse than the big V.
    There is some residual pain.  I limped for a day, but was back at work
    the day after the procedure.  Big nothing in the medical scheme of
    things.
    						- Vick
    

    .130
    
    Kind of like wearing bluejeans and no skivies. And you get alittle of
    the (aahems) cought in that zipper part. GEEZE! You could break any and
    all standing records in the standing jump!! I am surpirsed no one has
    tried that yet! :)

    The one thing that keeps me from getting this operation is the thought
    that if anything should ever happen to my wife and I should marry again
    I might want to have a child by that woman. Probably would not happen
    but that "but" keeps coming to mind.
    
    		Alfred

    Good point Alfred.  I have thought of this and it's easy to say now
    that you wouldn't want to have any more kids but things do change
    especially if you marry someone who doesn't have any children of their
    own and wants some. 
    
    
    Mike

    My brother (who had the classic Norman Rockwell Thanksgiving happy
    family) is divorced lo these ten months or so, and has found a woman who
    is perfect in many respects. However, she's a decade younger than his
    wife, and children are still on her agenda. He's now talking of trying
    to reverse his vasectomy (which is possible but not likely... maybe?).
    
    I remember an article at least a decade ago about a procedure which
    would implant reversible valves. I think that would be preferable, and
    would appeal to *we* *real* *men*, too. Instead of "I'm going to the
    doctor to be emasculated" we would brag that

    
    Reguarding getting rehooked up.....it can be done.....my doctor said
    that the success rate is about 50 to 60%.  Be sure its what you want
    to do though.  I'm glad I had it done, but, now I would like to get
    it reversed.  The good, you don't have to worry about getting someone
    pregnate (sp), and your girl frind or wife doesn't have to worry about
    taking the pill.  the first is what relieves alot of pressure off of
    my mind.  There is one other thing, I don't know how you feel about
    this and maybe its not important to some people.  How far you
    squirt.....before.....6ft.....now......3ft.  There is a difference.
    Sence this is a male conference....thats why I mention it.  
    
    	Later,
    		HW
    

    >this and maybe its not important to some people.  How far you
    >squirt.....before.....6ft.....now......3ft.  There is a difference.
    
    Darn!  I never measured the "before".  Now I could only give you the
    "after".  Oh, well.  I wasn't planning to try out for the sexual
    olympics anyway.
    
    					- Vick

Re: .136

I don't know who told you that, but it's just not true.  The difference
in "volume" is almost unmeasurable.

				Steve

    Re: wanting another child...
    
    I think you are CRAZY if you have this operation before first seeing a
    sperm bank (or two).  This way, you can have the benefits, while
    eliminating that 'but'...
    
    Dave

    
    Someone a few notes back mentioned "range of squirting" and that
    reminded me of this... that a guy that had it done told me himself,
    that ... and I quote him, "it's still good, but you don't pack as
    powerful a wad as you used to."
    

    There may be some differnece, but considering that an ejaculation is
    90% seminal fluid and only 10% sperm, the difference shouldn't be that
    great.
    
    Eric

    Yeah, I was going to say that it might just depend on had bad them
    little fellers want to get out.  
    
    Remember Woody Allen as the sperm in "Everything You Always Wanted to 
    Know..."
    					- Vick

It has been about 14 years since my vasectomy, but I doubt there was ever a 
difference between the "before/after" ability or effect.....

I think I said it before, but I'll say it again.....the only difference 
between your sex life after a Vasectomy than before is your ability to 
father a child.......any percieved loss of manliness (whatever you wish to 
define that as), loss of ability to produce or project as much as before, 
or any other change, was, at least in my case, totally unfounded and 
irrelevant. 

    Vic H

PS: A few back....I don't recall the shot of anesthetic as being a big 
deal....a local swabbing first of some anesthetic killed the shot 
completely.

    No changes were reported by my inamorata either.  Believe me, after
    such a long postoperative period of abstinence, there was plenty to go
    around....
    
    Ray

    It's not supposed to go around ...
    
    :-)
    
    ed

re:<<< Note 10.136 by LUDWIG::WHITEHAIR "Don't just sit there.......Do it now!" >>>
 
    
>> .....						How far you
>>  squirt.....before.....6ft.....now......3ft.  There is a difference.

I just have to ask... do you guys actually measure this stuff? :-)

Jenna    

<naughty reply deleted>

 Um, no.

    Some of us don't. Or so that I don't appear to be speaking for anyone
    else I should say:
    
    One of us don't.
    
    ed

A moderator's request - I know that the most recent subtopic here is likely
to inspire all manner of jokes, but please resist the temptation to share
them in this notes conference.  From prior experience, I know that
corporate Personnel takes a very dim view of sexually-oriented jokes in
notes conferences.  Thanks for your understanding.

				Steve

Jenna, 

As a straightforward answer to your question....I doubt it. Most of us have 
better things to worry about.....

    Vic

    
    
    I've seen different references to the amount of time between the actual
    clip job and the point when no trace is left of the little critters
    looking for a nice warm place.
    
    I'd like to get a better idea of how long it take before the count can
    be expected to be at zero.
    
                 V
    
    

    Given that the Vas is cut between the Testicles and the point of exit,
    There shouldn't be an Sperm around, unless of course, you have
    ejaculated recently before the Vasectomy. But this is a question that
    your doctor can probably give the most definitive answer on.
    
    
    q
    

    Peter, sperm actually mature en route to and in the prostate, not the
    testes. It's a continueous process. All the men I know were told
    between 15 and 30 ejaculations and then they test for the presence of
    sperm.

    I've been told between 20 and 40 and between 25 and 50 ejacs..  Which could
    put you into a time period of a week to a cuppla years.  :-)
    
    ed

    Only a week...guaranteed!  ;^)
    
    
    
                                    L.J.

    Well, I just had mine done about three weeks ago and it was painful. 
    Not unbearable pain, but quite a bit more pain than I expected.  The
    doctor said that I had some veins that had formed a sheath around the
    left vas and that it was restricting the tube (he was doing the vas
    through one incision).  The first two days weren't real pleasant but
    after about 5-6 days all systems were go again.  Now I have to get the
    40-50 times in ;'))  Wait til I tell the wife heh, heh, heh, heh.
    
    Mike

    You mean you didn't consult your wife before hand?

    re:.160
    
       Either your *real* bright or you have a decent sense of humor...
    lets all hope it's the latter.  ;^)
    
    
    
                                     L.J.

re:   <<< Note 10.159 by GRANMA::MWANNEMACHER "Daddy=the most rewarding job" >>>

<						Now I have to get the
<    40-50 times in ;'))  Wait til I tell the wife heh, heh, heh, heh.
    
    just take it in hand, Mike.  it'll all come out in the end ok.
    
    t.

    I've just finished reading all replies to this note. I'm scheduled
    for a vasectomy Friday morning and I've been a nervous wreck ever
    since I scheduled it. 
    
    Last Tuesday (Jan 28) I had a consult with a Urologist. He explained
    the proceedure to my satisfaction. I called him on his use of Local
    anesthetic only. He replied that he has performed 1000's of vasectomies
    and "I'm not going to hurt you". Was he lying ?? I'm not into pain !!!!
    I'm considering calling him tomorow to insist he use something else or
    I postpone the procedure and look for a second opinion ?? 
    
    My wife is a registered nurse, and when I espressed my anxiety about
    doing this under local, she called me a baby and reminded me of all
    the pain she experienced giving birth to our two beautiful children.
    My feelings are that elective surgery should be made as painless as
    possible, especially when all this requires is a shot of valium.
    Personlly, I think the idea would be nitrous oxide?  Has anyone ever
    heard of a dr that uses nitrous for vasectomies ?
    
    Mark.......On needles and pins as I write.
    
    

    In my case, the operation itself was not painful.  The administration
    of the local was the worst part of the operation and that didn't
    amount to much.  The soreness afterwards was worse than the operation.
    I doubt you'll find a doctor who wants to put you under.  Ask your
    wife to teach you her breathing techniques.  :^)  I use them at the
    dentist.
    					- Vick
    
    					
    

 Don't blame ya for having anxiety. The idea of anyone with sharp metal
objects down there makes my skin crawl. Yikes!

    My major problem was the bedside manner of the surgeon: "They're ONLY
    TESTICLES!"  Real sensitive New Age guy...
    
    Anyway, yeah, it hurts some.  But so does getting a tooth filled, and
    you don't get to have sex without condoms/diaphragms/Pill after getting
    a tooth filled.
    
    Ray

    Sounds to me as if ACKNOWLEDGEMENT by others as to your concern is half
    the issue.  Having ones' 'lower unit' worked on causes anxiety for most
    guys.. I know it would me.  You might want to remind your wife that
    this is not only a physical issue but also is an emotional one!
    Certainly she can relate to the trauma of a masectomy because she sees
    other women (I assume) who have had them.  While nothing is being
    physically removed from your body..... the emotional impact has some
    similiarities. 
    
    Jeff

    Actually, my main concern is pain, but nervousness is definately
    a factor. Anyways, my doctor called me back and said he was 
    going to prescribe something called "XANAX". I was temporarily
    relieved until I called my wife and had her look up XANAX in
    her drug handbook. It's basically a mild muscle relaxer...Sorry
    Doc, no cigar !!!
    
    My wife called the doctor back herself and has arranged for me 
    to go under general anesthesia. Not only will I not FEEL anything,
    I also won't REMEMBER not feeling anything !!!!! My mind is finally
    at ease. I need a good night sleep.
    
    Mark 

    Xanax was a reasonable prescription for your condition.  I don't have a
    pdr handy, but I don't recall it being described as a muscle relaxer.
    
    - M

    A general for a vasectomy. Now this is getting ridiculous. As several
    of my Doctor friends have pointed out, undergoing a full/general
    anaesthetic introduces a significant extra risk. You whole body will be
    intentionally put into a state of pseudo-sleep. Have you ever wondered
    why the old practice of generals for delivering babies was abandoned.
    (Too many people died) A local, is going to give you all of the
    sensation of being innoculated against flu or the like. Heck, a
    vasectomy hurts less than getting a splinter taken out.
    
    quit the wimping...
    
    q
    

    gee, aren't you sweet!
    
    You coupled some really sensible medical observations with some very
    insensitive editorials.
    
    I don't think the guy is a wimp. I do think you are an insensitive clod
    
    

    Mark:
    
    I am a _baby_. Went to visit my mother once just after surgery, a spot of
    blood on the sheet,  passed out colderna mackerel
    
    When our first baby was born 22 years ago my wife told them not to tell
    me if they decided to do an epesiotomy (sp?). She was sure I would have
    passed out. I would have.
    
    Gave blood ONCE
    
    	passed out colderna mackerel again.
    
    I would want a very liberal dose of valium (at least) before anybody
    went near MY balls with a knife. (I would prefer to be unconscious but
    recognize that is not particularly sensible.)
    
    I once watched -on t.v.- as a (relatively incompetent, i found out
    later) orthopedic surgeon poked around inside my knee with an
    arthroscope. My only medication was Valium. (and remember I'm a coward)
    
    There are two forms of anaethesia that you might be given. One is a
    spinal
    that's the way surgery was done on my knee back in 1970'. I was sick
    for over a week after the surgery. (spinal headaches, happens to about
    three percent of patients) My doctor finally 'cured' me by mainlining
    me with 50% alchohol. Boy was I drunk.
    The other is a general. I have not gotten nauseous as a result of a
    general, but for my last surgery, I had a general for my knee (again)
    was the last patient of the morning but the first one to leave. (we all
    had surgery on our right knees). The rest of them got sick! No fun, I
    hear.
    Valium is enough! I don't blame you for being scared! If you NEED a
    general go with it.
    Once, I went into surgery without Valium. They had forgotten and I was
    too frightened to be aware of it. I was wheeled into surgery without
    anything. They moved me from the gurney to the O.R. table, applied a
    tourniquet to my left arm, and started pumping it up. I broke down 
    crying, was sure I was going to die. The surgeon stopped the
    surgery (the same guy who had successfully arthroscoped my knee)
    I was going to die. 

    For some of us, even unconsciousness is no help. Whenever I get general
    anesthesia, my paranoid fears that the doctor is going to cause me
    great pain yea even unto death just get replaced by paranoid NIGHTMARES
    that the doctors have openly and joyfully admitted they're out to kill
    me.  I always go under thinking "OH NO!" and come out of it yelling the
    same, much to the dismay of those around me.
    
    In the immortal words of Lou "Pharmaceutical" Reed, "Some valium
    would've helped that trip."
    
    Ray

    I was just wondering about after the operation....
    
    Do the guys still experience orgasm the same way as before the
    operation?  Is there still an ejaculation? 

    No, I'm afraid we're biologically incapable of enjoying sex afterwards. 
    Basically (moderators, please advise if this is too explicit), we need
    to carry a bicycle pump with us at all times. 
    
    At least we can sing soprano parts...
    
    Ray
    
    
    
    Feels the same.  And so on.  Too bad, given the mess and all.
    

    That's what I thought!

    Xanax is an anti-anxiety drug that is stronger than Valium.  It really
    is pretty effective and it's highly addictive.  I had to have a colonoscopy
    last  March and the doctor gave me some drug that made me forget the whole 
    procedure.  I was still awake (and some parts of that procedure I will 
    NEVER forget) but most of it I don't remember.  I don't remember the
    name of the drug, but it was effective.
    
    Karen

    The only real problem of any kind I had with my vasectomy was a blood
    clot in the scrotum, due to a slightly leaking vessel.  It was annoying
    but NOT painful, and it went away.  Administration of the local wasn't
    more than a tiny pinprick, and that was it.
    
    One word of advice that I was given, and I think it worth passing
    along: if you wear boxers beforehand, you might want to switch to
    briefs afterward.  There's a little less support for the testes, and I
    found that I got *incredibly* tired afterward if I went around the
    house in a robe or PJs with no briefs under.  It's the effort of trying
    subconsciously and in vain to hold em up where your body thinks they
    belong.
    
    Good luck with your convalescence, Mark - hope it's easy and
    uneventful.
    
    -dick

    re .174, that's a *wonderful* quote!  And, one that I can
    wholeheartedly agree with.  (applicable to many situations!)
    
    Lorna
    

    I didn't die
    
    
    
    				herb

    
    	isn't a large percentage of *after-effects* subconscious?
    	i'm inclined to think that some men work themselves into 
    	such a subconscious state that the pain/uncomfortable-ness
    	is self induced.
    
    	i read this in `phsychology today'...and tend to agree with it.
    	the mind is a powerful thing.

    All pain is just in you head.  
    
    It was uncomfortable to walk for a day or so.  I don't think the pain was
    just in my imagination.
    
    						- Vick

    
    	but my point is....what about now?
    	do you feel you've fully recovered?
    	are you *intact*, so to speak?
    
    	what i'm trying (with any luck whatsoever!) to say...is that
    	yes, i do believe that at the initial operation and recovery 
    	time there is some pain and discomfort....but what is it, say,
    	after a week or so....
    
    	back to business as usual?

    I can't remember how long it took before I sufficiently insensitive in
    the groin area to have sex again.  It was more than three days and less
    than a month, but I just don't remember.  I certainly feel intact.
    In fact, whenever I hear of a woman who wants to get pregnant but her
    husband can't have kids, I smile inwardly and think "I could help you
    out".  But then I remember, "Oh, no I couldn't, that's right."  
    
    :^)  - Vick

    re .174, I'm told it's "some valium would've helped that bash" :-)
    
    re the pain, I'm sure it's different depending on the individual.  One
    close friend of mine was a little bit sore, but definitely not in pain,
    for a couple of days.  Other men may feel more discomfort of varying
    degrees.  (I imagine it's like women when they have tubal ligations,
    abortions or babies.  Some say they suffer almost unbearable pain. 
    Others claim to feel no pain at all.  It's obvious people react
    differently, as far as pain goes.)
    
    Lorna
    

    
    	it's all in the personal pain thresholds of individuals.
    
    	i'm glad you'r fine vick and have to think about....you don't 
    	appear less a man for having done *it*.
    	

>    re .174, I'm told it's "some valium would've helped that bash" :-)
    
    I KNEW I got that line wrong but I couldn't remember how.  Bless
    you, Lorna. 
    
>                                   -< help! >-
    
    ::DENISE, such distress!  I trust these questions are posed purely in
    a scholarly spirit?
    
>    	but my point is....what about now?
>    	do you feel you've fully recovered?
>    	are you *intact*, so to speak?
    
    Yes.  Aside from the gnarly scab and the shaved hair I was fully
    recovered and better than new after 10 days.  I'll admit it was a
    frustrating 10 days, though.
    
    Ray

    
    	yes, of course, ::RDAVIS....how else would they be posed?
    	i'm a glutton for knowledge....
    
    	one more question whilst i have you attention, ::RDAVIS...
    	how are you psychologically, at present?

>    	how are you psychologically, at present?
    
    Shouldn't this be a new base topic?  You know how I am about ratholes.
    
    Ray

    Reading this string always makes me cross my legs and sweat.  Can't
    figure out why.

    Well, this morning at 9:00 I entered into "THE VASECTOMY ZONE".
    
    I may be the only man on record to have a vasectomy under general
    (Anyone have their Guinness book of records handy?) but I'm glad 
    I did it. The last thing I remember was transferring from the gourney
    to the table and then I slowly awoke in the recovery room. 
    
    So far I have experienced little or no pain. Woke up around 10:45
    sitting on an ice bag and been applying ice most of the day. My
    doctor explained that he was using a new method which does not
    involve a scalpal or incision. I believe they use a special instru-
    ment which makes a small pin-hole and hooks onto the vas in one
    motion. 
     
    The sheet of instructions I brought home calls for:
    	ice bag 2 hours,
        daily shower, 
    	Bring specimen to Dr's office after 1 month, 2 months, 6 months.
    
    This summer's camping trips should be exiting and hassle-free !!
    I'd like to mention that having this notes file to turn to for
    information and moral support helped, although I think reading
    some of the personal accounts may have whipped me into a frenzy
    over having this under local. For those of you that had theirs
    under local, Your a better man than me !!
    
    Thanks again,
    Mark

    RE:.192

    >	Bring specimen to Dr's office after 1 month, 2 months, 6 months.

    	I remember 1 month and 2 months, but 6 months I think your doctor
    is trying to run the bill up.  I had mine done in 1976 and at that 
    time I had to bring my wife with me and she had to OK it too.  Oh ya
    I couldn't wait to get home to see if it still worked.  If I remember
    right it was a week later that I found out that the doctor hadn't cut
    anything he wasn't supposed to.

    Joe

    The Dr can run the bill up all he wants. My HMO is paying for
    100% of the cost.
    
    Mark
    
    
    

    So,
    
    	are you feeling better yet? Was the pain all that bad. Dare you
    wear low cut swim brief's in case the scar shows...
    
    
    q :-)
    
    

    I was under the impression that a vasectomy didn't leave a scar.
    
    Or if it did even low cut swim briefs wouldn't show it.

    me too,
    my vision is of an incision through the scrotum. 

    re .last 3 or so.   I was pulling his leg about his concern over the
    "major surgery"....
    
    q
    

    I didn't watch, but the doctor tells me he made a small incision in the
    right testicle, fished around for the vas deferens and severed it.
    No noticeable scar from my vantage point :^)
    
    					- Vick

    Someone just turned the cooler on in my shorts.  Nnngrph.  
    
    "..fished around for the vas deferens and severed it."  I can barely
    type it in.  No way I could go through with it.

    see reply .37 for details
    

    Not this soon after breakfast.

    The fun part is seeing the smoke rising from that part of your body
    when they seal the ends of the vas deferens.  
    
    My V was fairly painful.  I would do it again, the few days of
    discomfort is well worth the years of worry free pleasure.
    
    Mike

    OK, here's an idea for a new holiday. This Sunday's paper had an
    article on no-scalpel vasectomies, and happened to mention that "in
    Thailand, a number of the operations have been performed during the
    king's birthday vasectomy festival..." (I envision a row of men staring
    fixedly into the distance and shouting "Happy Birthday, Your Majesty"
    as the doctors snip. What a spectacle it must be!)
    
    And then there's the intriguing question, if we wanted to implement
    such a festival in this country, which public figure's birthday would
    be the most appropriate date? 
    
    -b

Re: .205

I have an answer to that question, but if the reaction to a recent Szep
cartoon in the Boston Globe is any indication, I'd catch a lot of flak for it
so I'll just leave it to your imagination.

				Steve

    
    I was curious... does anyone know what is involved in a reversal????

    Microsurgery.
    
    It's supposedly becoming fairly commonplace.
    
    Success rates depend on the method originally used to perform the
    vasectomy.

    re: .207
    
    Basically, they have to open up both ends of the Vas deferens, the tube
    that was previously cut and tied back.  They then have to re-attach the
    tubes.
    
    Mike

    There have been a few references to using sperm banks prior to a
    vasectomy, but there has been very little information about.  What are
    the costs?  Where do you go?  What is the shelf life?  How many 
    deposits are enough to have a reasonable number of chances on the 
    other side?
    
    I agree with many of the references that say that it provides a more
    comfortable feeling for all of those "what ifs" that you pray never
    happen.
    
    Thanks,
    jeff