Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    
    When I was 25 I landed a job managing an upholstery shop ..  this
    seemed ok enough to me as the family business had been upholstery
    and I was more than qualified for the job..  I know the ins and
    outs of this particular business quite well..  
    
    Well it was a small company with 5 men doing the labor and actual
    covering of the furniture and 1 woman doing the stitching..  I
    left that job after 6 months a total wreck because of the treatment
    I was receiving from the employees..  the men that worked there
    were all 10+ years older than I was with the exception of 1 and
    the woman doing the stitching was in her 50's... they resented my
    youth and the fact that I was woman.. the woman stitcher heading
    up the list!!!  They came to me several times and told me so point
    blank.. "I have been in this business blank amount of years and
    you are just a "kid" and so forth and so on.. I tried my best to
    get across to them the difference was the fact that they had always
    worked the labor/craft side of the job and I had had 5 years managing
    the family business and graduated from business college on top of
    that..  It did not matter.. in essence I did not stand a chance
    with the whole thing.  I really left that job distraught and swearing
    I would never ever hold a manager's job again.
    
    This of course is only the one experience I have to draw upon as
    in the family business there was never a problem.. I was vital to
    that business and it would have not been successful with out me
    but this one seemed to be hopeless to say the least. 
    
    I really have a lot of respect for women managers and young managers
    that know their stuff and I would hope as a result of this I would
    never presume to think that my age or my sex should prevent me from
    giving them the respect they deserve if indeed they do deserve it!
    
    later, gailann
                                                             

        I have had two women bosses and they were among the best. Both
    were demanding but fair and knew their stuff. I was willing to put
    in my 125% because both were supportive. Gender didn't play a role,
    I didn't look at them as women, just my manager. I've known some
    guys who'll jump ship if they fall under female management, can't
    quite figure out why!
    
    Ray

    Having had a pretty even mix since leaving school (13 years ago),
    I'd say it is the quality of the person doing the job rather than
    the sex of that person.
    
    Jeff

    re:.3
>                       -< Sorry I meant gender not s*x! >-

    No, you meant "sex", not gender.
    
    Words have gender.  People have sex.  My sex is male.
    
    Sex is called "gender" as a euphemism, because in many languages
    (not particularly English), there are genders called "masculine"
    and "feminine".  But in English, words are usually gender-free,
    so "masculine" refers to sex-linked characteristics.  It all gets
    bloodly complex and it's led to major battles over in ::JOYOFLEX,
    but gender and sex are two different concepts only vaguely related.
           fred

    	I've had a number of female bosses, and I have yet to have
    any real problems with them.  I've often heard of how women are
    treated unfairly in executive positions inasmuch as having to 
    perform in excess of their peers to prove that they can cut it.
    This may be true, I've heard too that most women have to try harder
    than their male peers because of those ever present MCP attitudes.
    Transcended, it puts pressure on the female to try harder to break
    those stereotypes.  Personally, I don't feel women should have to
    prove anything...as far as I'm concerned, if they have the
    qualifications for the position, I'm all for it!
    
    						Phil
    

    Of the managers I have had, the worst was a woman. The best was
    also a woman.
    
    Actually I don't give a damn what sex/gender my manager is as long
    as my manager is a GOOD manager.

    
    I've had both male and female bosses.  Never even gave it a thought
    until a professional aquintance about 15+ said to me "What? You
    work for a women?".  I realized, we, the computer professionals,
    are really the first generation and the first white collar industry 
    where you'll find female managers and male managers at almost equal
    numbers.  Thus, its been part of our ways and we've accepted the
    fact the the sex/gender (whatever) does not really matter.
    
    GOG
    

    I've had a couple of woman bosses.  (I've never worked for a "women"
    - siamese twins are kinda rare.)  It never bothered me and I never
    tried attributing any difference between managers to their sex.
    My current supervisor is female - so what?
    					Steve

    
    Gezu, Steve, you goin' pick on my typing, proof reading and/or
    spelling? Ain't nothin' sacred? Gezuuuuuuuuu......
    
    GOG :-)

    Sorry, George, you were just the most recent "offender" - hardly
    the only one in this conference, or elsewhere.  I had begun to wonder
    if some people really didn't know the difference between singular
    and plural, since "a women" showed up so often.  I did not intend
    to single you out - my apologies.
    					Steve

    don't apologize
    
    he screwed up and he should take criticism like a man
    

    	I worked for a woman once before I came to DEC and I agree with
    	most of the others that it isn't really much different than
    	working for a guy.  Yeah, sure there's a lot of little things
    	that you have to get used to, like you gotta keep your desk real
    	neat, and make sure that your clothes are all ironed and that
    	your tie doesn't clash with the office decore, and you can't
    	EVER forget to water your plants.  But once I got used to
    	the routine it turned out to be very pleasant and enjoyable
    	place to work and there was always fresh coffee.  In fact
    	I'd probably be working there right now if i could only have 
    	gotten her to stop goosing me all the time.

    	Jake

    

    re 11.
    
        Watch it, Kerry, or I'll tell Al to take away your silk undies!!!!
    
    :-)))))))))))))))))))))))

    �I'd probably be working there right now if i could only have 
    � 	gotten her to stop goosing me all the time.


    	That's happened to me.. I didn't like it..
    
    							mike

I've worked for both men and women, and had troubles with both.
My favorite managers (two of 'em) are a man and a woman, both here at
DEC.  My least favorite was a man who hated women, also here at DEC.

The only time I've ever noticed a woman being tough to work for
(as in a different way than a man is tough to work for) is when she
feels she has something to prove.  You know, a chip on her shoulder
about being a woman manager.

And as far as I'm concerned, that's merely bad management.

And that's not restricted by sex....

Karen

    Two of you guys refered to being "goosed". I'm aware that sexual
    harassment is not necessarily restricted to men bothering women
    but I am curious to know if you mean sexual harassment or that they
    (the women managers) were just touching you. Women, I think, tend
    to use touch (non-sexual) more than men. I'm wondering if we have
    yet another cultural difference that was mis-interpreted. 
    
    BTW, if it was sexual harassment you have my sympathy. I've worked
    for bosses like that and it's very distrubing. Liesl

    RE: .16
    
    	While standing at a filing cabinet I was goosed on more than
    	one occasion. Unfortunately, I was too young(19) and too nieve
    	to know about sexual harrassment and too scared of losing
    	my job that I didn't do anything about it until just before
    	I started a new job. That's when I told her off and told her
    	that I didn't like it at all.. She apologized but only enough
    	to calm me down..
    
    	She did not "touch" me. I'm one of those touching people and
    	what she did was give me a good goose right on the behind. If
    	I had made the same statement that you made to a women in the
    	same situation I would have been accused of belittling
    	and ignoring the situation. (The same thing that happens to
    	MANY rape victims.)
    	
    	So, I can understand all too well what some women have gone
	thru..
    
    							mike

    When I worked in the stockroom there was a supervisor who
    always walked by me and patted my behind.  Of corse he always
    did this while with other supervisors.  They all thought it 
    was hysterical.  After repeatedly telling him how I felt about
    this, I got a little frustrated.  So one day, he walked by with
    his buddies again and before he could get in the first pat, I patted
    first, said Hmm looking good today.  Believe it or not he was sooooo
    embarased he never did that to me again.  
    
    chirp
    

    Should've sued his butt, not patted it.
    
    Anyway I've worked in companies not noted for making F mgrs
    welcome so in those companies having a F manager could lead
    to political disadvantage. Otherwise its strictly a merit call
    for me.
    Sounds like we're all gonna (gotta?) agree on this.

    I have worked for 6 different women in 8 years at DEC.
    
    Some good, some fair, some poor. Age was not a factor,
    
    nor looks, nor race (the best was 40ish, overweight and
    
    lesbian). In all, about the same as the men I have
    
    worked for. Give me GOOD management and damn the
    
    differences.

    There's a book out called (I think this is the title) "How To Work
    For A Woman Boss, Even If You Don't Want To."  Has anyone read it?
    

My experience has been that the F managers that I have had exposure to 
tend to be more effective and thourough in their jobs... Maybe significant,
maybe coincidence.

ditto .20: Give me GOOD management and damn the differences.

J.

   I have worked for three F bosses in the last 6 years. The first was
    by far the best manager I have ever had - the second and third were
    tied for the WORST MANAGEMENT IN HISTORY award ! looking back on
    the situation(s) now I feel that the problems with the last two
    were personality clashes between the respective management and staff
    (including myself). In both cases the F managers involved were from
    non-technical backgrounds, yet were extremely reluctant to consult
    any male personell with problems they were encountering. One manager
    used to treat our senior-most programmer (who had been with the
    company involved for almost 15 years!!) like a child!! eventually
    he got sick of it and left (shortly before myself and four others resigned
    also) of the five staff members who resigned, it is interesting
    to note the following :-
    
    (a) ALL stated that the F manager involved was the reason for quitting
    (b) Two of the staff who resigned were women.
    
    Onto a brighter note, I mentioned at the beginning of this topic
    that the best manager I have ever had was a woman. She was brilliant.
    Intelligent and very sensitive to her staffs needs. When she finally
    left the company involved, to move overseas with her husband, we
    had the biggest "sorry-your'e-leaving" party you have ever seen!
    Dont think I've ever seen so many tear-stained faces in one place
    before......

    The only woman boss I had (not at this company) was a poor people
    manager and took all the glory for other peoples' work (mostly _my_
    work).
    
    Example: I edited a manuscript for a doctor (I worked for a medical
    publisher), and she suggested that I'd done too much editing. I
    didn't think so. When the doctor called to thank the editor, she
    took the call - and the credit...didn't even mention my name. 
    
    She didn't even have a publishing background but somehow she became
    managing editor for this company.
    
    One day I just quit; left a note on her desk. I found out later
    that two previous people she'd hired quit also, within one year.
    I talked to one of them on the phone - we were in total agreement
    about what an inept manager she was.
    
    What ticked me off about her too was the way she'd put me down in
    conversation when other people were around; this gave me no respect
    from my peers and made me lose respect for her. 
    
    I just hope that wherever she is she's having a lousy time, like
    the one I had working for her.
                                                  

    re: .24
    
    Hmm sounds like the lady bosses suffer from the same problems
    as male bosses !!??!!
    
    (!? is loosely defined as a "rhetorical exclamatory question" sic
    mark).
    
    //rwe