Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    No, it's not "feminine" to consider the impact of our behaviour
    on others, it's considerate.
    
    And emphatically NO it's not "feminine" to seek to be "manipulative"
    instead of quote "natural". Women have no monopoly on
    "manipulativeness", the emotionally loaded way you phrased your note is
    ample evidence of that. It appears to me that there is a hidden agenda
    in your questions. The premises you use (male = natural implies
    feminine = ? [unnatural, manipulative, civilized]) and conclusions you
    draw bother me. Why does "natural" equal "male" in your book?
    
    	-- Charles

        If you can't get along with people by being yourself, then
        perhaps you should consider being someone else? :-)
        
        It's not artificial, much less "feminine", to make an effort
        to adjust your behavior so as to get along with others. It's
        called diplomacy, tact, or just plain common courtesy.
        
        Sexist behavior isn't non-sexist just because it was done
        without thought ("naturally").  A man who tells a woman she
        is ruining her life by pretending to work as an engineer,
        sincerely trying to help her by offering this good advice,
        is being every bit as sexist as one who says the same thing
        with the intent of being obnoxious.
        
        Behavior, however "natural", which consistently offends people,
        is probably just bad manners.  Men are no more intrinsically
        bad mannered than women... but for some reason society has
        always accepted it more readily in men.  Most likely for
        the same reasons that a slave owner could beat a slave to
        death with no reprisal, while a slave could face death merely
        for daring to say "no".
        
        	/dave

    Re: .3
    
    Because we're coming from such different viewpoints, I sometimes
    find it hard to reply to your postings. Please bear with me.
    
    There seems to be an underlying assumption in your note that
    spontaneity and "naturalness" is always good and admirable. I
    completely disagree. If everyone did "what came naturally" there would
    be less regard for the feelings of others, and more unhappiness. On the
    other hand, careful planning of actions to achieve a particular effect
    is just as bad, because it ignores your legitimate wants and needs.
    Instead a balance between your desires, and hers is needed.
    
    I think *all* interpersonal relationships are a give and take, a
    balancing of both parties needs and desires. If you are always trying
    to please someone else, I claim you will eventually come to resent
    them. If, on the other hand, you never consider someone else's desires,
    you will rightly be percieved as selfish, and the result will be
    more unhappiness.
    
    None of this is inherently "male" or "female", it's clear to me
    that there are people at both ends of the spectrum in both sexes.
    Women don't have a monoply on critical analysis of other's behaviour,
    and men have no monopoly on spontaneity and naturalness.
    
    Carefully planning your actions to please someone else is a no-win
    situation. If the person is pleased, you feel badly, either for
    being manipulative, or because it wasn't natural. If the person
    isn't pleased you lose as well. Male and female doesn't enter in
    to it.
    
    Acting "naturally" but with regard for others has a much higher
    potential for a win-win. If the other person is pleased, then you
    feel good because they like the "real" you. If they aren't, you
    can either find someone who is, or decide that you can afford to
    change whatever it is they don't like. Again, it makes no difference
    if it's a male or female you are interacting with, the principle
    is the same.
    
    The second way is more risky, because you can no longer say, "well, it
    was the plan that didn't work out, not me". Instead of a "plan" to
    blame when things go wrong, you have to look at yourself, your habits
    and lifestyle, and decide if changing is worth it.
    
    	-- Charles

>    There seems to be an underlying assumption in your note that
>    spontaneity and "naturalness" is always good and admirable. 

	If there is such an assumption I applaud it!

>   If everyone did "what came naturally" there would be less regard 
    for the feelings of others, and more unhappiness. 

	Not true. Suffering (read unhappiness) is not caused by
    selfishness. The most natural thing for someone is to 
    be compassionate so being selfish and compassionate are
    compatible. 

    Spontaneity (without quoting Nietzche's Birth of Tragedy)
    is the most virtuous of qualities. 

    We have a problem with semantics here. I don't disagree with what
    you say, but I think you are saying something different that what
    I was replying to.
    
    Unfortunately many people (men especially) seem to equate
    "spontaneity" and "naturalness" with "I do whatever I want, without
    regard for others". This is what I was disagreeing with.
    
    I do disagree that compassion, altruism, empathy, and other similar
    emotions are natural. I contend that regard for others is learned
    behavior, not innate, witness the intense selfishness of small
    children. Both of our positions greatly oversimplify the true
    situation, but I think we both agree that suffering results from not
    considering other's feelings, whether we call that "natural" or not.
    
	-- Charles
    
    P.S. Shall we meet in PHILOSOPHY, and discuss Nietzche further?
    
    P.P.S
    		"Do what thou wilt!"
    
    		"Love is the law, love under will."
    
    Shall we discuss that too, while we're at it?

    re .7
    
    >    I do disagree that compassion, altruism, empathy, and other similar
    >emotions are natural. I contend that regard for others is learned
    >behavior, not innate, witness the intense selfishness of small
    >children.
    
    Small children are also capable of altruism.  There was an article
    in "Psychology Today" several years ago (around 1979) that described
    in detail a study of altruistic behavior in infants.  The study
    found remarkable instances of altruism in even the smallest children.
    Parents who participated in the study recorded their children's
    behavior; these parents were amazed, because they, like you, just
    assumed that children are innately selfish.
    
    I would have a very hard time dealing with the world if I thought
    people were as inherently bad as you make them out to be.

    Sigh, I was afraid of this. I *don't* think people are inherently bad,
    on the contrary. I just don't buy the "act naturally" = "good"
    equation. That is, that everyone is naturally good. That's not the same
    as saying everyone is inherently bad. I did say I was oversimplifying to
    make a point, I know that children are *capable* of altruism, of course
    they are, or they could never learn it. 
    
    I would have a hard time dealing with the world if I believed everyone
    was as intolerant, argumentative, and judgemental as their notes
    indicated.
    
    I *like* people, I like being with people, and I even think I like
    you (Michael, I believe it is). I also like myself, and find dealing
    with the world a lot of fun.
    
    	-- Charles

    re .0:
    
    How do I define what it means to be a man?  Beats me.  I have no
    doubt about my being a man, but in the final analysis that is only
    a biological statement.  What I am and what ideals I aspire to are
    really statements about being a person.  I can't define what a man
    is in terms of physical (other than biological) or psychological 
    characteristics, nor in terms of roles in life.
    
    Although I cannot or will not verbalize it, I must have some
    definition, I suppose, of what it means to be a man.  The way I
    live my life is undoubtedly a statement of it.  My wife and our
    children probably know that better than myself.
    
  --Simon
    

    What's this???  Someone actually going back to the original topic???
    I was afraid the original question was lost forever.  I am just
    getting into this file and I am curious what all of you think a
    man is.  
    
    To me, a 'man' is the opposite of a 'woman', biologically.  Even
    gay men are 'men', biologically.  Once they become women, I don't
    know, I haven't pondered that one.  If you want to know if you are
    a man, look at your driver's license.
    
    Now, a "manly man" is a different subject.  I have a beard.  I have
    lots of hair on my chest.  I have a deep voice.  Does this make
    me "manly"?  Arnold Schwarzenegger has no hair on his chest.  Does
    this make him "unmanly".  We all have different ideas of "manly".
    
    How about "macho".  Again, we all have different ideas of "macho".
    The Hell's Angels are "macho".
    
    I am a man.  I am manly and macho enough for my wife's liking and
    she is the only person IN THE WORLD that I have to worry about.
    I think I'm skinny, she doesn't.  I'm not muscular, she doesn't
    like muscular men.  She loves a hairy chest, other women hate hairy
    chests.  I simply don't care what anyone else thinks of me, whether
    or not I'm manly or macho.  My wife likes me and that's all that
    matters.
    
    My stereotype of a "real man", which I think the original question
    was asking is this, not that it really matters:
    
    Muscular
    Hairy (beard and chest)
    6 feet tall or taller
    Manners of a goat
    Always needs to prove that he's a man
    
    
    I quess I lose.  I cry at funerals.  
    
    Spence
                                         
    P.S. I have a beard because I hate to shave.

I'm male and human.  That makes me a boy or a man.  I've passed puberty.
 Ergo, I'm a man.

And that's all there is to it.  Anybody who tries to make rules is just
 making *their* rules.
  <_Jym_>

    
    .12 > Right on!
    
    	When I was in the 5th grade I got a little shook up one day
    when I realized I liked talking to the girls as much as I liked
    playing soccer with the boys. (It wasn't a popular concept at the
    time.)  Later on in high school, I just couldn't understand the
    pleasure some of the guys got out of torturing their fellow man.
    I was shy, didn't have a girlfriend, and even though I was strongly
    attracted to women, worried that I didn't seem to exhibit some of
    the "real man" charateristics.  A friend of mine gave me some good
    advice.  He said anytime I worried about my masculinity I should
    go to the bathroom, pull down my pants, and take a good look.  If
    I had the right equipment, I was a man, and my charateristics were
    therefore "masculine".  Ever since, thats the only definition I'll
    accept.
    
    DRC

    .12, .13  APPLAUSE APPLAUSE!
    
    Some additional comments.  I am a man because I am an adult male
    (defining adult gets tougher).  I am NOT a man because my wife likes
    me or says I am.  I am a little troubled by men accepting anyone
    elses definition of manlyness.  After all, the feminist movement
    is a strugle to throw off the yoke of women living within definitions
    set forth by men, should we pick up that discarded yoke?  Even
    if I agree with my wife's definition of how I should behave "as
    a man", that is not why I behave that way.  I behave the way I do
    because it is how I feel I should behave.  My wife likes the way
    I behave (which may have something to do with her marrying me) and
    I have changed some of my behavior since meeting her because I wanted
    to accomodate her, not because i wanted to fit her "definition of
    a man".  
    
    And finally, in response to those who feel that considering other's
    feelings in dealing with them is an "unselfish" act, I disagree
    (not violently).  I consider others feelings in dealing with them
    because I find it more enjoyable (and productive) for me if I deal
    with people in a "diplomatic", "tactful" manner.  My motivation
    is entirely selfish, selfishness need not be inconsiderate!
    
    Phil
    

    
    
    	I'm a mature boy in a man's body.
    
    						mike

            
    My father said to me, "Be a man!"
    
       be strong, be a leader, be brave,
       work hard, earn your way, save money,
       provide for others, be responsible;
       don't show anger.
    
    
    My mother said to me, "Be a man!"
    
       be smarter, be good, be polite,
       obey, compete, practice, be quiet,
       be alone, be careful;
       don't show sadness.
    
    
    My teachers said to me, "Be a man!"
    
       be punctual, be quiet, be like others,
       study, pay attention, do your homework,
       compete, lose, win, succeed, fail;
       don't show ignorance.
    
    
    My clergy said to me, "Be a man!"
    
       be reverent, be humble, be proud,
       judge, sit still, be superior,
       turn the other cheek, stand up for Jesus;
       don't show hatred.
    
    
    My peers said to me, "Be a man!"
    
       be one-of-the-guys, be cool, be tough,
       make out and score, drink, smoke,
       play ball, hang out, goof off;
       don't show weakness.
    
    My sergeant said to me, "Be a man!"
    
       be a soldier, be strong, be brave,
       be arrogant, stand straight, take orders,
       be a killer, be willing to die;
       don't show fear.
    
    Father, mother, teacher, peer,
    Clergy, sergeant, all that are dear,
    I learned to be what you wanted of me
    In order to gain acceptability.
    To be a man became my goal;
    I struggled and strove to create my role.
    I lived to please; I lived to serve;
    A covert victim of your every word.
    Life, for me, became a trap
    Ensnaring, confusing---a vicious map
    For how to act outside of me
    While filling with rage internally.
    
    
    Then one night in the midst of pain
    A voice whose name I could not name
    Said to me,
    
                       "Be you!"
    
    
    "You are a man and much, much more.
    Though the ground may unharrowed be,
    In you are freedom and responsibility,
    Will, worth, devil, saint,
    Arrogance, humility, stout heart and faint.
    You are the gardener, the choice is yours
    Of what to grow from your abundant stores.
    In you there is life to live creatively,
    If you accept and nurture your immensity."
    
    
    Father, mother, teacher, peer,
    Clergy, sergeant, all that are dear,
    I am a man and much, much more.
    Though I did not know this before
    To be *just* a man is lessening me;
    To be a man is not to be.
    
                                      Jack Marvin

       

    Re: .16
    
    Jack, that is wonderful.  You wrote it?  It is excellent, and oh
    so true....  Thanks for entering it.
    
    				Steve

    re .16
    
    Oh how nice!!  I will be very happy when I meet only men (and women)
    who define themselves that way.
    
    Thanks--         Lee

    re: 16
    You certainly expressed my thoughts better than I could have. You
    also have skill in writing...of which I appreciated your sharing
    with us.
    
    Thanks;
    Bob

    I, a newcomer, think that was put "very nicely".
    Much appreciation for the insight.
    MD.

    I hope you don't mind my inserting a poem here that I wrote back
    in '79.  It has been used in several counseling situations and will
    show you what one woman considers a man to be.
    
    		On Becoming A Man
    
    A man is not measured by feet and inches
    But by the greatness of his heart.
    He is not measured by strength of force
    But by strength of character.
    He cannot be weighed in pounds and ounces
    But by the love and compassion he holds for others.
    His might is not by force of arms;
    Rather, his power lies in his laughter and tears.
    His bravery is not in overwhelming others with violence--
    Crushing all obstacles, real or imagined.
    His courage is in the realization of his manhood
    And of not fearing for others to see him as he really is.
    
    Barb
    

                    Being a man is the continuing battle of
                    one's  life,  and  one  loses  a bit of
                    manhood with every stale compromise  to
                    the  authority  of  any  power in which
                    one does not believe.

                    Norman Mailer

    It seems to me that being a "man" is just biological.  I've noticed
    that some of the definitions of "man" or "manhood" in recent replies
    could be applied to women as well ....
    
    - dave

    Yes to q# 1.
    
    Yes to q# 2.
    
    Mike

    
    Yes to both.
    
    I've found most men tend to socialize primarily with one gender or
    another.  Women fall into this pattern too.
    
    -Jody