Conference quark::human_relations

    Maybe you should give your wife some space. This isn't easy for her
    either. It should be her to decide when to draw the line with her
    sister. Family should be there for each other when they are really
    really needed. I would go and help my sister. I saw once where one
    sister was dying and the other sister gave up everything to come.
    She stayed right to the end. Stay in counseling and don't fight with
    your wife over the time she is spending away. Be happy to see her when
    she does have some time to spend with you. She would never be able to
    live with herself if she didn't step in to help when a major crisis
    like this developed. Life has many ups and downs and strange twists and
    turns. There are many times when you have to walk alone. Spend your
    time alone wisely. Do some other projects that you've been wanting to
    do. Don't do anything that would ruin the marriage if you really want
    to save it. Sounds like your wife is her sisters lifeline right now. It
    doesn't sound as if the sister spend her time developing herself enough
    to become able to take care of herself. Your wife has a very hard task
    of teaching her. This is difficult enough to do without you kicking her
    in the process. If you really love your wife then love her when you are
    together. Don't whine and cry and make all these demands. She doesn't
    need it. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps and get involved in other
    things. Your life and your self esteem is separate from your wife. This
    dosen't mean that she doesn't love you.
    
                                                 

    
    I read once, in a magazine article, something that will stick with me
    forever.  It was an "interview" with an older couple who'd been married
    forever (more than 50 years).  The obvious question;
    
    HOW did you do it?
    
    The answer was something like;
    
    Marriage isn't a day to day, or even week to week or month to month
    thing.  Marriage is for a life time.  As with other things in life, we 
    had good years and we had bad years.  If you can keep it in that
    perspective, it's not so hard.
    
    Not sure if this is helpful, but it's some food for thought.

    
    	Well, it's back to priorities; what they are, what's reasonable to
    expect in the context of a marriage.
    
    	Some people think that a spouse is the highest priority, coming
    second only to "yourself" in a marriage. Topping "the children", "the
    family", "the job", etc. Others have their priorities arranged
    differently, perhaps putting "themself" last in the scheme.
    	
    	My guess is that you feel cheated, because your wife has chosen to
    put her sister above you, in her priorities. Why would she do this?
    My guess would be that she's getting something from that relationship
    and wants to keep herself attached to her source.
    
    	[Oh, and try to let go of all that "turning it around and putting it
    on you" that I heard, what with her saying "*you* have no compassion,
    *you* have psychological problems, *you* shouldnt be suprised". That's
    simply an unfair way to negotiate, it's a denial based *tactic* that 
    inherantly dismisses what is going on with the person pointing the finger]
    
    	IMHO, you likely wont be able to "compete" right now with what
    she's getting by being there. And I'd guess there's a number of things
    going on. Certainly, the grief she must feel over the loss of her
    "father, friend, confidant and just about everything else" is probably
    enormous and maybe all the activity that she's engaging in, in support
    of her stricken sister, is working effectively to shield her from
    feeling as bad as she really feels about it.
    	
    	Point being, _that_ would be quite something to defend and support
    the continuation of. Comparing the two situations hypothetically, in
    her being with you; it's calm, serene, quiet, consistant and there's
    nothing to really "distract" someone from a state of mind, such as
    abject grief, coming up for them. At her sisters, there's five kids
    that need to be taken care of for starters. Then there's trips to the
    hospital, trips to therapy, daily medication to manage, nursing, 
    supporting and running an active household; the picture I see is one 
    where she can stay totally busy, feel justified about it and be one
    step ahead of that big black cloud coming down on her, on an essentially 
    continuous basis.
    
    	The tradgedy of it is, that if this is in fact what she's doing, it
    will eventually run out of gas, and the big black cloud will still be
    there. "Busying ones self" is a common and well known grief avoidance
    technique. 
    
    	Hopefully her counselor will pick up on it. To her credit, I dont
    know anyone who can just "go into it" and "sit with the pain" without
    some form of escape (like "work") but I do know what some books say on
    the subject and that is it's not a particularly healthy behavior.
    
    	It's not a healthy behavior because it can destroy relationships.
    Perhaps there's a chance that you could get her to see how her choices
    around this matter are destroying your marriage.
    
    	I dont know what your part in her decision was, except that you
    gave a clue in that you never raised your voice to her and the
    confrontation ("fight") was the first you ever had with her in five
    years. Fighting, as long as it's done in a fair manner, is something
    that's necessary and healthy in maintaining a relationship between two
    people. Some of what that does is keep two people emotionally
    connected, because you're presenting each other with feelings you have
    about this 'n that on a regular basis. It's a real skill to have and
    is learnable; people like "John Bradshaw" have lectures and workshops
    on exactly this. When I hear a couple say "Oh we never fight" I
    immediately think "...those two are doomed". Because what happens is
    they are actually getting further and further apart - even though it
    might seem like they're the closest two people in the world - and then
    something happens and BOOM!, it doesnt work and everyone's going "'what 
    happened to them!?...You're kidding!"
    
    	I think the best way you can show your wife you love her dearly is
    to keep going to counseling and try to learn about and understand some
    of what I spoke about here. Things like people's ordinary responses to
    grief over loss. Things like "I'm running the entire spectrum of
    emotions over this, because she's running off over that: what can I
    do?" A good counselor will be able to show you how to deal with your
    grief, so that perhaps, if the opportunity comes, you'll be able to
    deal with her's; you'll have something that is "competitive" with her
    working it in the way she's chosen for now.
    
    	Hope this helps, it's all my unqualified and humble opinion.
    
    	Joe

	The following reply is being posted anonymously, by the author of the 
base note. You may contact the author by mail, by sending your communication
to me and I'll be glad to forward it on. Your message will be forwarded with
your name attached, unless you request otherwise. 

	Joe
				*	*	*


	118.1

	I agree, giving my wife space was the correct thing to do. However
	she is filing for the divorce.  I do love my wife, and never had
	the issues with the time spent or the living arrangements until she
 	started purposely picking fights with me.  She and I had many a 
	discussion that she felt she was being squeezed by her sister and I,
 	which is why I usually left her alone.  I didn't complain when she 
	went out with her friends, as opposed to stopping by and seeing me.  
	Because I knew she needed that time with her friends to unwind from
	the both of us. As I didn't want her to feel that I was pulling her
 	for any reason. Please don't get the impression I whined the entire
 	time, it was never like that at all.   When my wife was home we often
 	discussed issues about her sister and her kids.  And the best way to
 	approach them. It was that everything just flowed and produced this 
	end result. 

	The other concern which I also gave my wife was the total dependancy
	of her sister on her, using her as the replacement for the husband.
	I agreed based on the status of her sister she had to take care of a
 	lot of things, but the sister has continually increased the workload 
	as opposed to reducing it, or even learning what is required of her.
	The comment of her not being prepared is definitely an understatement.
	But my wife could not teach someone who doesn't want to learn when
	she can push off what she doesn't want to learn. 

	If I coming across with what appears to be sarcasm, I do apologize.
	And I am not trying to appear as a martyr, if my writing appears
	to indicate it.  I am just trying to gather as much input as I 
	can to get my wife to at least consider putting the divorce on
	hold until we can straighten everything out. I do believe my 
	wife loves me, but for now that love doesn't seem to be enough.

	118.2

	Thanks
	

    
    Well, I'm probably not a great one to be offering advice, but I do know
    the mistakes that I've made, and maybe some of that would help you ?
    
    The first mistake was in "giving up" on my marriage, and not trying
    harder.  Probably, it would have ended anyway, but there's still a lot
    of wondering - mostly wondering if I gave up too soon.
    
    And, being one who tends to "pick fights" with the ones I love, when
    I'm stressed out, here's a possible angle on what your wife is going
    through;
    
    She's stressed to the max.  Period.  She feels too responsible to do
    any different.  She CAN'T just walk out on her sister, regardless of
    how her sister is acting and what she is or isn't doing, or should or
    shouldn't be doing.  If your wife leaves, her sister and those kids are
    doomed, and your wife knows that.
    
    She's also probably getting tired of it all, and feeling her "real"
    life pulling at her.  Feeling her own grief demanding attention. 
    Feeling you "demanding" attention - not that you necessarily ARE, but
    she knows that you SHOULD be, and that you deserve the attention, but
    she simply can't give it.  GUILT is a funky thing.  
    
    If I were in her shoes, I might very well be doing the same thing. 
    You've essentially said that you're having a *REAL* hard time
    tolerating what she's doing.  She can understand that, and probably
    agrees that that's reasonable.  So, in her head, she may be looking at
    it like this;
    
    I have two choices.  I can either stay, and care for my sister and
    nieces and nephews, and they REALLY need me.  OR, I can go back home
    and be with my husband.  AND I *have* to choose (and by this point I'm
    SURE she feels like she has to make an either/or decision).  
    
    If I choose to "go home", then my sister and her family will be ruined. 
    She may even kill herself, and I couldn't bear to lose anyone else. 
    They really need me.
    
    If I don't "go home", what will he do?  Well, he'll be okay - he's done
    find for this long, he really doesn't need me around.  He just calls
    when he gets too horny, and that's all he cares about.  Besides, I
    don't need him screaming at me like that - I shouldn't have to take
    this!  He's completely incompassionate about the whole situation (and
    then it builds on itself).  Yeah!  He's completely incompassionate! 
    Yeah, he's a real jerk!!  What do I need him in my life for anyway?! 
    Why, just last month he didn't offer to carry that thing for me, and he
    KNEW it was too heavy!  And he SCREAMED at me!  And he doesn't even
    care that I'm not around.  And he always leaves the toilet seat up. 
    And ya know, I'm really sick of this.  I want a divorce.
    
    And BING, there's an answer.  Because then she needs a place to stay -
    gee, being at her sister's works perfectly.  And her sister needs her,
    and she won't have you "harping" on her to come home and be the wife
    she can't be right now, and on and on.  
    
    She's under tremendous pressure - not necessarily from you - but you're
    the only one she can "lash out" at.  A divorce eliminates a *PILE* of
    pressure, because it removes that whole other "pull" that she's
    feeling.  And I'll bet she's doing it fast because she doesn't want to
    risk changing her mind.
    
    There is actually a possibility that the Magistrate may not GRANT a
    divorce if you can prove the extremity of the situation.  
    
    If it were me, I'd fight like hell, FOR the marriage.  And that doesn't
    mean fight WITH her.  If there's any chance that you can talk to her at
    all, try to allow her as much time as she needs with her sister.  But
    with some "limit" that you can live with.  Try to understand that SHE
    has no idea when the "end" may be, or when she may be able to return to
    you.  She seems to know that it's no time soon.  And I'm sure she's
    feeling guilty about putting your life "on hold" for so long.
    
    Pick some time.  Maybe 6 mos?  Say to her "Honey, I understand that you
    are under a tremendous amount of pressure right now.  I can't possibly
    understand how difficult it is for you, but I do see that it's there. 
    And I understand that your sister and the kids REALLY need you there
    right now.  I am sorry for any other demands that I may have made on
    you, or that you might be feeling - spoken or otherwise.  I am proud of
    you for all that you've been able to do for them, and it makes me love
    you even more, seeing how compassionate you are.  I understand that
    helping your sister get back on her feet is going to take a good amount
    of time.  But even if it takes 6 months, it's time that I am willing to
    wait.  I love you with all of my heart.  I want to spend forever with
    you, and if I lose 6 months, or a year of that time, it's only a drop
    in the bucket, of the time I hope we are together.  Take the time that
    you need with them.  And don't forget that I'm here, and I do still
    want you, and want to be with you.  In the meantime, if you have any
    spare time that you'd like to get together, it'd be real nice if we
    could go out to dinner or a movie or something once in a while.  I do
    miss you, but I understand that you need to do this now.  I am willing
    to let go enough for you to take care of them, because I really don't
    want to lose US."
    
    .... and if there's anything left at all, or if I'm even close, you
    might just hit something there.  You know your wife better than anyone
    else - you're going to have to decide your best approach.  But, it
    sounds to me like she's just cracking under the stress and taking a
    whack at what will relieve the most amount of stress, in the "fewest
    blows."
    
    Whatever you do, **REFUSE** to fight with her (it will only fuel her
    fire of reasons to divorce).  If things start getting nasty, you can
    even "take the blame" if that helps.  "Look, hon, I'm tired, and I
    think that I'm misinterpreting what you're saying.  I really love you
    and I know you're going through a lot, and I only want to be helpful.  I 
    don't want to fight with you - can we please talk about something else,
    or talk about this later when I'm not so grumpy?"  It's hard to stay
    mad at that .... Remember - when she's trying to pick a fight, she needs 
    someone to fight with - don't get sucked into it.  And trying to "pick
    a fight" is more or less a plea for some support/love .... you can
    either fight, and support her decision that you're a louse, or you can
    refuse to fight, and support her cause, and remind her you care.
    
    It's time to stop caring about who's "right" or "wrong", and think more
    of the end result.  If you're dead right, and she's just being a total
    bitch about the whole thing, that's great, and you can react however
    you want.  But if you react by pissing her off more, you're eventually
    going to be alone.  If you just let her spew a little, and try to keep
    in mind the future, and the "good" things about her and your
    relationship, then it's more likely to be productive.
    
    Lastly - try to help her out, in whatever way possible.  Maybe you
    could pick one night a week where you go out and buy pizza for everyone
    (or cook - that'd REALLY be awesome!), and bring it over.  Then you get
    to visit, and your wife doesn't have to think about feeding everyone. 
    Be a PART of her struggle through this.  And I wouldn't assume that she
    doesn't want you there ... she may just feel like it's not your
    "responsibility" and not feel good about asking.
    
    Good Luck!!
    Patty

    
    I'll probably get beaten up here for saying this but something with
    the wife just doesn't seem right.  How can she give up so easily
    regardless?  If you truely love someone you will do what you can
    to keep your relationship together.  Moving in with someone else no
    matter what the circumstances are isn't keeping it together.  I can
    see for a couple of days here and there but not months.  She's too quick 
    to run out the door instead of facing the problem.  I don't feel as if 
    any man (woman)deserves that kind of treatment.  She sounds selfish to 
    me especially trying to turn the blame around.  Her sister is also
    very selfish by asking her to stay there and rely on her so much. 
    As hard as it is too deal with stress she should still be able to see 
    the other side to a certain point.  From my past experience is that the 
    one picking the fight usually does so trying to get the other person to 
    back out to make their life easier.  If she can say that she didn't do 
    anything wrong and that he had asked for the divorce it would make her look
    better.  Also, it seems that once you've decided to say how you felt is
    when she wanted the divorce.  Sounds to me like she wants it her way
    and her way only.
    
    If she's feeling sorry for the kids and doesn't beleive her sister can
    take care of them then why not have the kids move in with the 2 of you?
    Maybe the sister needs to be admitted for more extensive therapy?  She
    obviously needs more help if she's not capable of taking care of the
    children.  Is the wife just being an enabler at this point?
    
    Sorry for being so much on the negative side but when I read the note
    that's exactly what I saw.
    
    

	The following reply is being posted anonymously, by the author of the 
base note. You may contact the author by mail, by sending your communication
to me and I'll be glad to forward it on. Your message will be forwarded with
your name attached, unless you request otherwise. 

	Joe
				*	*	*


	Patty:

	Thanks for taking the time, you really spent a lot of time and
	effort in this.  I really appreciate it.

	I know that she is trying to justify leaving me in her own mind.
	I even told her four months ago that you can always get another
	hsuband, but you can't get another sister or neices/nephews. This
	was one of the times I was helping her justify going and helping
	her sister.  Little did I know it would come back and bite me.	

	"Bet she is doing it fast so she doesn't risk changing her mind"

	The answer is "yes", I asked for her to go to counseling, mediation,
 	a priest, a rabbi, anyone who would act as an impartial arbitrator. 
 	But she refused, with no reason given. And I have asked her to slow
 	down the process, but she refuses to budge or make any changes to her
 	path. I told the counselor the exact same thing, and he agreed with 
	you on this.  I have continually requested that she tell me or document
	as to exactly why I am getting a divorce, I would still like to know.
	
	"Is there any chance that you can talk to her".
	
	She refuses to speak with me, I get "you know that I don't want to
	discuss this, all I want is a divorce". I thought about contacting
	her therapist, but only know her by her first name.  Within the last
 	week she has taken to using her maiden name on her voice mail message,
 	for what reason I am unsure of. I never got hung on her using my 
	last name anyway 

	"Dinner's"  - I have asked her to go to dinner, she refuses."They" have
	planned activities, scouts, Grocery Shopping, Therapy, baseball, dance
	class, school dances, teacher meetings, lawyer meetings on the funds,
	support groups for the sister, children, Vets, hair appointments,etc, 
	everything was booked for several weeks out.  Her sister is too "tired"
	to do this so she runs around doing it all.  One of there reasons I 
	had no problem with my wife originally going over was to get them into
 	a "normal lifestyle", although not as regimented as this.  I have never
 	volunteered to take them out, as they lived like this for the several 
	weeks in eating out and fast food. One of the reasons my wife 
	went over there was to get them eating normal.  Also, I  cooked for 
	the entire family several times during the first weeks, but in 
	retrospect I was never asked to stay for the meal. Nor have I been
	invited over for dinner, breakfast, or anything during this entire
 	time.

	"Visiting" - Well tried that several times, never worked.  One of the
	younger ones started crying "I was taking her Aunt away, and they
	needed her."  The oldest one, told me you can't take our Aunt away, my
	mother is really F'ed (sorry) up.  So I have even had to take a low 
	profile with this. When she did visit the few times she came home
	all the kids would ask why was she leaving, when would she come 
	back, and didn't she live here (sister's place).  So by the 
	time she got home she was misty eyed.

	Your comments about her taking her time to get her sister straightened
	out sounds like a duplicate of almost every conversation I have had
	with her in the last seven months. I have tried everything that you
 	have documented or recommended, but it still produces the same results.

	
	DBROWN (Thank you as well)

	Your comments will not receive any abuse from me.  It is really a
	payback of when she was younger and she was always being bailed out
	by her sister and especially by her brother-in-law.  Based on the
	past, when I asked her point blank about my side, another comment
	of where I have no compassion for her family was made.

	I own a small home and five kids with a dog would make life miserable.
	
	The sister needs therapy, housekeeping, financial, taxi, shopping,
	and child rearing assistance, but why look for it when my wife 
	will do as a rettun for living there. Which is why I had no 
	problems with my wife being there, to help her out.

	I do have to ask what is an ENABLER?

    an enabler is a person who is enabling disease to grow. 
    Look into some of the 12 step programs. 
    The only person at this point that you have control over is you.
    When you begin to understand that you are powerless over everyone
    else then you can work on yourself. Often when you begin to make
    changes in your life then other people will. I can sympathize with
    your anger and grief. The main thing for you to do now is detach and
    let go.
    
    Let go...if your love returns then you know it's yours.
    If it doesn't come back then it was never yours in the first place.
    
    I have a paper on letting go on my fridge. Maybe I'll bring it in and
    type it in here for you.
    
    I know all this isn't the answer that you want to hear. You want
    everything to be back the way it was. I'm really glad you are getting
    counseling. That's the best thing you can do.

    
    	re: .8
    
    	Is this the "Letting Go" you were speaking of?
    
    To "let go" does not mean to stop caring, it means I can't do it for
    	someone else.
    To "let go" is not to cut myself off, it's the realization that I
    	can't control another.
    To "let go" is not to enable, but to allow learning from natural
    	consequences.
    To "let go" is to admit powerlessness, which means the outcome is not
    	in my hands.
    To "let go" is not to care for, but to care about.
    To "let go" is not to fix, but to be supportive.
    To "let go" is not to judge, but to allow another to be a human being.
    To "let go" is not to be in the middle arranging all the outcomes,
    	but to allow other sto affect their own destinies.
    To "let go" is not to be protective, it's to permit another to fact 
    	reality.
    To "let go" is not to deny, but to accept.
    To "let go" is not to nag, scold or argue, but instead to search out
    	my own shortcomings and correct them.
    To "let go" is not to adjust everything to my desires but to take each
    	day as it comes and cherish myself in it.
    To "let go" is not to regret the past, but to grow and live for the
    	future.
    To "let go" is to fear less and love more.
    

    
    Anon,
    
    Unfortunately, I'm out of suggestions .... and I can't see where you've
    left any stones unturned.  I can only hazard to guess that your wife is
    so caught up in all that's going on with her sister, that she's just
    not hearing you and not seeing what's going on, really.  That she's not
    STOPPING long enough to pay attention.  Unfortunately, some day she
    WILL be forced to deal with the consequences of her actions.
    
    I don't know how determined you want to be to "keep" this all going. 
    You may be able to try to "dodge" the legal actions.  You may consider
    legal assistance, and see what can be done to find out REASONS anyway.
    A divorce decree is something that you both must sign and at least
    agree to the conditions, on paper.  On what grounds, has she filed for
    divorce?  Even simple "irreconciliable differences" require that you
    both agree, swear that it's true, and sign (notarized).  
    
    Be thankful that you don't have children - no matter HOW this turns
    out, it's much better that they're not trying to deal with this right
    now.
    
    It "could be" lots of things that are going on for her.  You can guess
    until your head is about to explode.  Or you can try to accept that,
    for whatever reason, she has it in her mind that she's going to do
    this, and there doesn't appear to be anything that you can do to
    convince her otherwise.  This is not ABOUT you, although it sure as
    heck has a major impact on you!!  If you sit there and beat yourself up
    with "What did *I* do wrong?!" you're only going to make yourself
    miserable.  Your counselor should help you through some of this - there
    is actually very little control that we have of anyone else, and
    sometimes very little we can do to influence their decisions.
    
    Because it's all very personal to you, doesn't mean that you should
    take it as a personal insult on you.  She's not "of sound mind and
    body" right now, and is rushing through this all, in hopes that she
    won't HAVE to face it "for real".  Once it's 'done', it's (probably in
    her mind) too late to "undo", and she'll move on.  At least she THINKS
    it'll be that simple.  She is totally overlooking the regret that
    she'll feel over not spending more time thinking about this decision.
    
    The best you can do, is know that there will come a time when she'll
    realize what she's done, and she will definitely regret it - for
    whatever that's worth.  This is the best she can do right now, and
    frankly, her best right now is pretty horrendous, but it's also out of
    your hands.
    
    You can't talk to someone who won't listen.
    You can't work things out, with an uninterested party.
    You can't share passion and compassion with someone who's shut down
    	their emotions.
    You can't fulfill her needs, if she won't acknowlege that she has any.
    You can't fulfull your needs from a dream or memories, alone.
    
    If you truly feel like you can't "get through" to her, then you're
    going to be lost.  If you want to keep trying - keep trying a way to
    get through to her.
    
    Have YOU thought about going over and TAKING CHARGE?!  That could go
    either way, but it's a thought.  "Here, I'll deal with these 2 kids,
    and what they need - you take your sister and those 3".  If she's being
    "forced" to 'wear the pants' in her sisters house, maybe she's figuring
    she doesn't need you to 'wear the pants' in her house?  "Rise to the
    occassion".  
    
    My personal opinion - if two people want something badly enough, they
    can ALWAYS make it work.  AND, I'm pretty disgusted with the average
    counselor who seems to be quite willing to watch, and even sometimes
    assist, in the demise of a relationship.  I have *NEVER* been and heard
    someone say "Hey, maybe you should just try harder!".  It's always
    "Well, if xxx decided that they can't stand when you abc, then I guess
    that's up to them" - not to many say "Hey, maybe you shouldn't DO abc!"
    
    Not much else you can do though .... if you can't get through to her,
    you're doomed.
    
    Good luck - maybe a brick will fall out of the sky, and she'll open her
    eyes ??
    
    Patty

	The following reply is being posted anonymously, by the author of the 
base note. You may contact the author by mail, by sending your communication
to me and I'll be glad to forward it on. Your message will be forwarded with
your name attached, unless you request otherwise. 

	Joe
				*	*	*



	Went through two very, very intense session with the psych over the
	last three days.

	He came to mention:

	1) Although he has heard only side, and he admitted I was quite
	   defensive of my wife regardless of the situation, he said I had 
	   put up with more than most people could/would have done in my 
	   situation.  He couldn't understand as to why I never pushed back 
	   or harder sooner. I told him, I didn't know any better, and I 
	   didn't.  If there wasn't a fight or request for a divorce, I 
	   still wouldn't be pushing back.  

	2) My wife was/is an "emotional timebomb", because of all the issues
	   with her family, and it would only be a matter of time before
	   she would break. Basically I was set up by my wife to have the 
	   argument, so that she probably could then justify requesting a 
	   divorce, or being asked for one. Hence satisfying her need to get
 	   back to her sister to get whatever satisfaction she requires 
	   from this relationship**. He stated I should have no guilt in the 
	   ways I addressed things. And above all I should have no guilt
	   about her fighting comments.  I guess this is easier said than 
	   done. 

	3) A divorce is imminent.  But he recommended that I do not push for
 	   it to let her have the time to make this decision if that's what 
	   she wants. And if that is what she wants to go through with it, 
	   as even if she comes to realize that I did my best to make it a 
	   damn good marriage I will always have the concern of her leaving
	   me for her family. 

	I have decided to go through with the divorce.  I am in a No-Win
	situation, as was pointed out to me. 

	I was requested to visit with him several more times, which I readily
	agreed to, as I would like to find out more about why I did/do some 
	of things I did, and do not want to continue to do.

	Before I disappear back into the wall, I wish to thank everyone for 
	their assistance and replies.   


	** Can someone explain to me why this is damaging.  I understand
	   the damage to my marriage, but what can be damaging about 
	   family members helping family members.  I didn't think about
	   it until later.  I don't seen the quickness and agility I 
	   once had to pick up things.

			

    re: helping family members, I can see "damage" when there's a rigid set
    of roles that the family members are comfortable playing out, *even 
    though* those roles are limiting the players.  When Patty suggested
    that you try to take on half the kids, half the housework or whatever
    at the SIL's, my first reaction (and I'm not sure why) was "The wife
    would never stand for that.  She is the Savior/Martyr, and allowing
    someone else to help would mean [to her] that she had failed in her role."
    If they are playing these games (roles), the sister is the Helpless
    Victim and will remain so until the Savior/Martyr gets fed up and
    walks (which doesn't seem likely; the Savior/Martyr gets all the power,
    plus the sympathy for having to put up with the Victim and the work she
    creates).
    
    If no one in their extended family is suggesting that the sister get
    over it/get a life/get *outside* help/lift a finger towards becoming
    self-sufficient, then IMO these people are locked in and the basenoter
    is locked out.  If that is the case, better to realize it now and get
    out; the basenoter won't be able to enter the theater, never mind
    change the choreography of this dance :-)
    
    Leslie

    
    	There's a theory on how families work called "family system"
    theory. In this theory, every member in a family, within the family
    relationship, holds a particular position with a corresponding
    "function". These are all tied together via emotional links, such that
    the whole family hangs in a state of dynamic emotional balance, much
    like the pieces of a mobile. So when one element gets perturbed, they
    all move in a compensating manner.
    
    	Some of the functions may be things like "hero", "scapegoat"
    and "rescuer". There have been a few hundred identified. "Mascot"
    comes to mind.
    
    	The way this is damaging to someone, is when someone starts
    reinacting their "dysfunctional family function" in the context of
    a new and different relationship. Say, growing up little Tommy always
    took it on the chin; he was the *scapegoat* for the Jones family. Now,
    he's all grown up and married - and still taking it on the chin, just
    like he used to. What with his wife always telling him how he's to
    blame for all their misfortunes, he's such a loser and if he just got
    himself together, the rest of the family would be just fine, etc etc.
    
    	It's damaging because ordinarily, you grow out of your family
    role and become flexible and unlimited by what happened to you during
    your childhood. When someone jumps back into their previous role, such
    as "caretaker", they're almost necessarily not growing and changing.
    They're just doing the same old thing they've been originally trained
    to do, trying to refill a role in a system that in fact, doesnt exist
    anymore.
    
    	One of the qualities of doing this is that it's very familiar and
    comfortable. It's like getting your old job back. Perhaps your wife was
    the "rescuer" in her family of origin. She was the one who "handled",
    even if only emotionally, all the crisis that happened between when she
    took that on and left to go off on her own. If so, it sounds like her
    sister's crisis was a golden opportunity to get her old job back, yes?
    
    	So, she can spend the rest of her days doing something that is,
    perhaps, not much different than what she was doing as a teenager.
    Maybe there was a time when her role was useful for the survival of
    the family. But now, she's gone ahead and made it her responsibility,
    something that wasnt necessarily her responsibility. In taking on 
    that which belongs to her sister, she may be enabling her to not have
    to face her own reality. It's damaging to someone else to allow them to
    get into that state - for the sake of your own "comfort" or feelings of
    "righteousness". "Oh I'm *right* to do this for her" -
    
    	Hope it helps,
    
    	Joe
    

    It's funny that you should bring this up Joe. It true the family
    dyamics are intense. I had to leave the dyamics of my family in order
    to become healthy. I don't even like being around my parents for more
    than 3 or 4 days at a time. 
    
    I went through a period of time where I tried to help my sister. She
    was at the time coming out of a divorce. She was actively drinking.
    She wasn't lifting a finger to help out and complained to me because
    I wasn't giving her children enough candy. I was supporting nine people
    at the time and had a fourteen month old baby to take care of. I was
    also working full time. I also wanted a divorce from my husband and
    all of the burden was just tooo great.
    
    I sent my sister packing. She was not complaing to me any more. She had
    a whole new set of problems. Like where was she going to live and who
    was going to feed her and her children. 
    
    I used to be an enabler and once you find out what an enabler is and
    does - you can't go back to being one.
    
    My sister ended up living with my parents for three years. She finally
    after two more marriages and divorces went back to school and became
    a nurse. She in now happily married to a non drinker. She's happier
    and healthier than I've ever seen her be.
    
    To the basenoter...your wife will wake up at some point and realize a
    few things. At that point you may or may not want to go back. Sometimes
    the pain is just to much. Work on getting you back to a healthy state.
    Also if you do decide to go back (at some point) make sure you set some
    healthy boundries. You will probably have to give this some thought as
    you are probably not accustomed to setting boundries. Work some of this
    through with your counselor.
                                

    
    	That was a nice story...I cant imagine the difficulty you were in
    - and put yourself in. It mustve been tough to realize the enabling and
    consequently send your sister off to find her own way. I'm glad to read
    that in the long run, the story had a happy ending for both yourself and 
    her.
    
    	I had to laugh when I read how you dont like being around your
    parents for more than 3 - 4 days at a time. I thought " yeah; 3 - 4
    *minutes* at a time!". That's actually pretty sad and it's better for
    me today. Of course my mother's not around anymore, so it's easier.
    
    	So seductive your role in the family dynamic is; it's hard not to 
    get sucked back into it! It's something that operates on a subconscious
    level, with triggers that are based on context, like being back at the
    house you grew up in. Or being around certain people.
    
    	Thanks for sharing,
    
    	Joe

	The following reply is being posted anonymously, by the author of the 
base note. You may contact the author by mail, by sending your communication
to me and I'll be glad to forward it on. Your message will be forwarded with
your name attached, unless you request otherwise. 

	Joe
				*	*	*


	Some of the replies have made me stop and think, and do a lot of
	research on codependency and Enabling.  

	I found it interesting reading where not only is my wife fitting
	into characteristics of codependency, as well as the enabler role.
	But I also found that the majority of the characteristics fit me
	as well. 

	Are these characteristics of codependency used as a generalization
	or are they guidelines which one has to look for?  The next session
	with the psych is next week, and I am getting more confused by it.
	
	My wife is in counseling, and has been in it for the last nine 
	months, so how come her therapist hasn't picked up on it?

	And yes, I am still looking for explanations as to why all this 
	is happening.

    
    	>Are these characteristics of codependency used as a generalization
	>or are they guidelines which one has to look for? 
    
    	It has been said, upon becoming familiar with characteristics,
    traits and anomalies associated with codependency, that a kind of
    "collage" of evidence begins to form which can indicate its presence. 
    
    	That's because not every one, nor all of the characteristics
    specifically pertain to any single individual. There may be several
    that do, several that dont, yet which can still indicate that this may 
    be a significant issue for someone.
    
    	>My wife is in counseling, and has been in it for the last nine 
	>months, so how come her therapist hasn't picked up on it?
    
    	As I mentioned before, her counselor may be satisfied with simply
    "mirroring" her, as his/her therapeutic technique. Not every counselor
    challenges their clients, in terms of "what they do for them" for their
    fee.
    
    	At the risk of sounding brash, I might add "how come your therapist
    hasnt picked up on the level of concern you have over what's going on
    between your wife and her therapist". If _he or she_ was trully sharp in
    picking up on any inklings of codependency... You see, therapists are
    fallable, and only act on their best judgement and intuition.
    
    	Joe
    
    	Joe
    

	The following reply is being posted anonymously, by the author of the 
base note. You may contact the author by mail, by sending your communication
to me and I'll be glad to forward it on. Your message will be forwarded with
your name attached, unless you request otherwise. 

	Joe
				*	*	*


	Well I have finished another two grueling sessions with the psych.

	His personal and professional opinion was to seek a divorce as 
	soon as possible.  Time, seperation or counseling on the part
	of my wife will not quickly rectify the problems she has, and 
	more specifically with our marriage. 

	What was described to me was, my wife is a member of a totally 
	dysfunctional family unit.  This blowup was not the cause of anything
 	that I had did, but could have been something that has festered for
	years. He told me that I just happened to have the bad luck of being
	there when she went off.  It was nothing I did or did not do, it
	was just her finally coming to the realization she is unable to
	deal with her current and past situations.  So the retreat to her
	"family" for all these months was something that was a learned 
	and accepted behavior.

	The hardest part of all of this is letting go. I understand there
	were issues even before I met her that have caused this, I understand
	there are issues surrounding the family that were there before I 
	even met her, and I have come to understand this isn't even directed
	at me.  But it has totally impacted my life and my future mindset.  I 
	was referred to as the "victim" by the psych, and even after all these
 	sessions I still feel sorry for my wife.  Having to live with whatever
	has caused these  problems, I feel she is more the victim than I.

	We talked briefly about reconciliation, and what his opinions on it 
	were. His recommendation was to let time decide.  But only if she
	underwent extensive therapy for "all" her issues, which he 
	specified could take an extended period of time; and that we
	set up mutually agreed to visitation schedule with her family,
	which I know she would never agree to.  But I personally do not
	think she will seek out another counselor. So this was a mute point.

	Joe, I asked about codependecy and the ability of the counselor
	to ignore it or not identify it.  His comment was, there are 
	counselors who just mirror the conversation and not delve into the
	issues that are really affecting the individual.  He said this was
	not my issue at this point in time.

	I am still going to continue counseling, I find it a great way
	to get to a logical conclusion instead of my personal what-if's.
	As I also found someone who is honest enough to give me straight
	answer, tell me if I am off base and willing to delve into issues 
	that are not on the surface. 
	
	Again, thank you all for putting up with my ramblings, bad grammar,
	and problems.



	

	

	

	

    I learned a long time ago that you cannot help someone that doesn't
    want to be helped. If it's time to let go and you feel ok with yourself
    to let go then this might be what you have to do.
    
    Get yourself to be healthy and solve your own issues. Maybe somewhere
    down the road you will find someone who is healthy that you can share
    life with. It will be a much better relationship.
    
    Sorry that you had to go thru this...I guess some of lifes lesson
    aren't easy.
    

    
    	Thank-you for your sharing. Good luck with your future personal growth
    endevours!
    
    	Joe

    
    I'm going to take the lesser-travelled (especially these days!) road,
    and ask;
    
    What ever happened to "For better or for worse"??  
    
    To ANON:  SUPPOSE that your wife didn't act quickly on following this
    through (divorce)- and SUPPOSE that she decided that she wants to try
    to work through her issues .... would you be willing to give her the
    time and love and support that she needs for that?
    
    Or is it simply a matter of "shape up or ship out - NOW!"?
    
    Just think things through before you act too quickly .... and some food
    for thought - my personal experience with ~6 idfferent counselors, not
    one of them has ever suggested to WORK on a relationship - they've
    always been of the attitude "Well, it's not perfect - you should
    leave!".  I'm more of the attitude of "Anything worth having, is worth
    working for" .... YMMV.
    
    -Patty

    Patty,
    
    It's a personal choice..not all circumstances or situations are the
    same. You can't compare oranges and apples. 
    
    I'm sure that he's been through all of the thought trains and has
    finally made a choice. He's the one that has to live with that.
    
    

    re:             <<< Note 118.21 by OOYES::WEIER "Patty, DTN 381-0877"
    
      What ever happened to "For better or for worse"??
    
 Patty, I think that phrase has more of a meaning when both people stick
    together during bad times and it usually makes the relationship
    stronger.   In anon's case she has pretty much left him to be on his
    own and after some time it makes sense to move on and heal ones soul.
    
    
    Dom

	The following reply is being posted anonymously, by the author of the 
base note. You may contact the author by mail, by sending your communication
to me and I'll be glad to forward it on. Your message will be forwarded with
your name attached, unless you request otherwise. 

	Joe
				*	*	*


	I would do anything to continue to have a chance to make this
	work.  And I would fight like hell anywhere for her, if she
	would understand what I am trying to do to keep us together. 
 	
	I did write a letter to her, using your posting as a guideline, 
	telling her I would wait for her. Which by the way echo'd my 
	sentiments exactly.  I did receive a voice mail telling
 	me that she is still going forward with the divorce. 

	I wrote again asking for her to consider marriage counseling, and 
	we could go based around her schedule.  I never recevied a response
	back. 

	Our mutual friends ask me why I am giving up so easy as you have
	asked.  I guess the last nine months with my in-laws (and all the
	issues associated), talking with my shrink, and long distance
	phone calls to friends who are psychologists/psychotherapists/and
	one a priest have made me realize that all this may be for nothing. 

	As I would have to be concerned about the next "issue" that flaired 
	up, how quickly would she be out the door, how quickly would she 
	entrench herself back into her sister's life, and the unknown factor,
 	how much confidence would I have in knowing her sister would not just
	pull these emergencies for sake of companionship.The final one, the 
	sister has no support infrastructure to go to, except my wife.  She
	has no one to turn to except my wife, as they only lived in the area
 	for two months before the husband died. My wife told me awhile ago,
 	that parents of the children's playmates had volunteered to assist 
	in anyway they could.  But her sister said she didn't want to impose 
	her problems on other people, besides she had "family" to assist.

	I have searched the Internet high and low for information 
	concerning codependency, read three books one weekend on it.
	Searched everything I could find out on Depression and grief, 
	and the affects on families read two books on it.  I have no closer 
	understanding on what to do for my wife, and the marriage, than the 
	first day I started.

	So yes, I am going to call it quits.  When you stop banging your
	head against the wall, the pain goes away and you wonder why 
	you didn't do it sooner.  Sorry for the bad analogy, but it 
	best describes the way I feel.
 	  

    
    	Here's some WWW page addresses that might be of interest to you,
    or to the general community -
    
    	http://www.opn.com/willowgreen/tips.html
    
    	http://www.infi.net/%7Esusanf/codep-rl.htm
    
    	Watch the caps in that last one, they matter.
    
    	Joe

    Anon...you don't have to explain to anyone your reasons for moving on.
    This is difficult enough to go through. You will run across people who
    will try to judge your choice. You know in your heart that this is what
    you have to do. If you can get up in the morning and look at yourself
    in the mirror and be ok with yourself...it doesn't matter what other
    people think or do. You know you tried and gave it your best and that's
    all you can do. You have to both be in..if one is out then you're both
    out. In a way I can see that you have grown in this situation. Maybe
    some time in the future you can have another relationship. To let go is
    probably the best thing you can do.

    
    I'm sorry if I sounded judgemental (and re-reading, I can see how it
    was taken that way).  I meant that *my* personal opinion is that
    counselors don't seem to encourage hard work.
    
    And the crux of the question was "If she said, essentially, "Yes, but I
    need time", is anon still willing to work it.  The way I read his
    previous reply was "Counselor said dump her, so I am.  Period".  And
    the other things that I've read, is that she keeps saying that she's
    going forward with things, but (I can't recall anything) isn't putting
    that into action.
    
    She's setting you up .... if you go forward with it, in (say) 5 years,
    when she finally gets her head back on straight she'll be free to dump
    it all on you "Well, YOU'RE the one who pushed the divorce!", and will
    dopubtfully ever deal with her own stuff about it.  She's maybe SAYING
    it, in hopes that you'll do it, so when she regrets it, she won't have
    herself to blame, really.  Words (her threats) are a lot easier to
    ignore than actions (you filing, perhaps).
    
    This isn't meant as any sort of "direction" - it's just meant as a kind
    of "Heads up!" --- see what's going on here ... so you're not blind
    sided again in a few years, after you've worked through this stuff.
    
    There is a series of audio tapes (amongst video and books) that Dr.
    John Gray has put out, about building and maintaining relationships,
    and more or less about becoming "healthy" with yourself.  It explains a
    lot about developmental phases that everyone goes through in life, and
    how, if you don't successfully get through one phase, you cannot
    successfully get through the following phases.  One of his examples was
    that a comman phase that's skipped, is adolescence.  Or that a lot of
    people don't SUCCESSFULLY make it through this, with all that they
    need.  Thus, in Dr Gray's theory, illustrated by the 40-50 year old
    person who finally says "To heck with it all!", walks away from his
    family/life/marriage, and starts acting more like a teen.  Until you
    complete each phase successfully, you will always be drawn back to it.
    In Dr Gray's definition, it sounds like she's probably missed her 2nd
    phase, which is 8-14yrs old (they're all 7 year cycles), in which a
    person needs to bond and identify with the family.  To feel loved and
    accepted there.  I'm not good at reiterating what he explains so
    thoroughly and gracefully.  Here's what I can remember of the phases:
    
    Age
    Birth-7- This is the "MOM" phase, where the child, more than anything
    	requires the love, acceptance, nurturing and devotion of "Mom".
    
    8-14 - Family.  The child needs to find a niche in the family, and take
    	a "role".  A place to fit in, where they are accepted and loved.
    
    15-21 - Peer relationships.  This is where you sort of strike out more	
    	on your own, and pull away from the family, and get that love and
    	acceptance from friends.
    
    22-28 - Nurturer.  This is where your worth is defined through
    	nurturing someone or some thing (a baby, pet etc).
    
    29-35 - Self-love.  This is where you truly begin to identifiy yourself
    	and yourown goals, regardless of your family role, expected roles
    	and that sort of thing.  Where you figure out what YOu want, and
    	what your own goals are.  This is when a LOT of people get
    	divorced.
    
    I'm a little uncertain that I have this in the correct order.
    
    36-42 -Societal duties - this is feeling like you need to Give Back to 
    	society.  Volunteer work, charities etc.
    
    And honestly, since I'm only 33, I didn't pay as much attention to the
    latter ones, so I can't recall them.
    
    Anyway, missing any one of those hurdles, will always draw you back.
    So, maybe she's "stuck" somewhere in her past (physical years), trying
    to make up her needs (biologically/emotionally).  It's actually kind of
    frightening to me, and those I've shared this with, how accurate this
    seems to be, give or take a few years.
    
    The tapes, if you're interested, are about $120.00 (I think that's
    right - something says they might be $60. but I think that's too
    cheap).  It's 6 major "topiccs, 2 tapes per topic, 1 1/2 hour tapes, so
    there's a total of 18 hours of listening - it's pretty easy to listen
    to, and really isn't at all boring.  Plan to listen more than once,
    because the content is quite a lot, and you'll want to think and come
    back to things again and again.  This is from the Men are From Mars,
    Women are from Venus series, and is called "The Secrets of Successful
    Relationships".  Not sure exactly where this number goes, but try 
    1-800-834-2110.  There's a lot of great info in there - I've learned a
    TON about relationships (well, except how to get OUT of a bad one (-:)
    
    I've rattled on here - sorry to get so long-winded.  And I didn't mean
    to judge - I know *ALL ABOUT* being able to look in the mirror, and
    being okay with it in the end.  Good for you that you've found that
    peace.
    
    Good Luck!
    Patty

	The following reply is being posted anonymously, by the author of the 
base note. You may contact the author by mail, by sending your communication
to me and I'll be glad to forward it on. Your message will be forwarded with
your name attached, unless you request otherwise. 

	Joe
				*	*	*


	Sorry I haven't updated this Notes file lately.  I have been 
	actually been working and finishing a project.  Big progress
	for me, mentally anyway. 

	Today, I received in the mail, the paperwork for the divorce.
	My wife is filing under Irreconciable Differences.  She filed 
	the paperwork on May 22, 1996, and was submitted to the Sheriff's
	department on June 3, 1996.  So it looks like I am going to court.
  	And I a not going to fight it, at least I know that much.

	They told me you can always prepare yourself, but it doesn't hit
	you until the paperwork is delivered.  I was taken back, but
	I guess that I couldn't compete with her sister and family.
	So there is nothing I can do at this point.

	I enjoyed the time she was my wife, and I will always smile
	when I think about the good times we had.  And I will always
	be in love with the woman that was my wife, before these major
	problems.  But all I have is sorrow for the woman she has become, 
	and now I have to move on.  

	Would I take her back if she ever wanted to come back? Sorry, I don't
 	have an answer for anyone, not even myself.
	
	The other reason I have buried myself in my work, is that my 
	childhood "sweetheart" called and told me she has inoperable 
	cervical cancer. We parted years ago, but have always remained 
	good friends. So, this has really been a rough couple of months.

	Patty, a special thanks to you for your support.

	Joe, thanks for putting up with my questions and ridiculous requests.