| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 115.1 | | TLE::PHILLIPS | | Mon Mar 25 1996 13:43 | 9 |
|
I went thru something similar to this. As I look back, I didn't handle it
very well. You sound like you are doing much better than I did. I kind of
freaked out because I knew deep down I wanted what you want - but she was
struggling with it .. and couldn't give it. I think if I could have dealt
with it in a more mature way, things might have worked out better. You need
to decide for yourself what you really want and need ... and to decide if
this person can provide it.
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| 115.2 | | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Here I am, my anger and me | Mon Mar 25 1996 14:05 | 53 |
|
Anon,
Different people are able to maintain different levels of
relationship. Some, *require* that one checks in and all things are
pre-approved; hence the freedom isnt there. Some are based more on
a confidence in one's self and each other; one can take off for the
weekend with one's kids without "prior notification" and everything's
OK, believe it or not.
It seems that in this society, especially from the male point of
view toward the female, that this "requirement" is in place, just as a
matter of fact. Perhaps you could explain to her that it isnt so with
you, and that her expectations, wherever she got them, are unfounded
with _you_. (She may have got them from her ex, her father, or just
from growing up in this society.)
I read that it's especially important for her to feel un-tied
down. One way to accomplish this is to not be in a relationship. A
better one, where you can have the advantages and solutions to the
"disadvantages" is to be in a relationship where both partners are
willing to work on ways and means to take into account the other
person's feelings.
To do this, you could ask her to try answering "In our relationship,
I would feel free if..." which could provide a myriad of stuff to work
with. Like :
...We didnt mix things up financially
...I know I wasnt obliged to make regular contact
...I could have other male friends
...You kept your own apartment
...I could make plans without consulting you
...We only got together when we didnt have the kids
...Our sex life wasnt so great
...It wasnt so soon since I left my husband
With this, then you can decide which ones you can actually do
something about, which ones you'd be willing to do something about and
which ones you simply could not provide. The idea being that you could
then present her with this and say "good enough?" to which she could
answer "yes/no/let's try it for 90 days and I'll see if my feeling is
still there".
"Nothing" is not the answer, if you're both willing to work on it
some. I'd say, with all you've got going, to give it your best shot.
Maybe she'll say "Well, I just cant give the time that I feel I need to
put into a relationship to make it worthwhile - and that's that". So
then you'd say "I guess it is the 'wrong time' - goodbye for now". On
the other hand, maybe she'd be willing to work with you on it. It's my
suspicion that she would.
Joe
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| 115.3 | | TALLIS::NELSON | It's not the years it's the mileage! | Tue Mar 26 1996 11:02 | 39 |
|
This type of thing is so hard, because every situation and person
is different. Depending on how *I* felt about a particular situation I
might do things totally different; just no blanket solutions.
However, it does seem she's on an emotional rollercoaster, and
she's taking you with her. I've been there, and I can't remember any
situation where the rollercoaster smoothed out while we were dating. A
relationship just isn't the best place to work stuff out. (This isn't
to say it *can't* happen, I just think it unlikely.)
It sounds like she really cares about you, but is simply feeling
overwhelmed. Maybe it went too quickly, maybe it went too deeply, or
maybe she thought she was ready and found out later she wasn't. It's
hard to say.
Whatever the reasons, you have to realistically look at where
things are and what you want. What's your tolerance for riding the
rollercoaster? Can you be happy with just a friendship? (It's REALLY
hard to go backwards, I think.)
Based on what I read, I might just cut things off, giving her space
and see what happens. It sounds like you've tried multiple times to
talk about things, but she simply can't make up her mind what she
wants. Until she knows what she wants and is truly ready for it,
there's not much you can do.
Best of luck,
Brian
|
| 115.4 | Anon Replies. | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Here I am, my anger and me | Thu Mar 28 1996 09:40 | 31 |
|
The following reply is being posted anonymously, by the author of the
base note. You may contact the author by mail, by sending your communication
to me and I'll be glad to forward it on. Your message will be forwarded with
your name attached, unless you request otherwise.
Joe
* * *
Thanks for the input so far. Your response is really appreciated.
I am supposed to go over to her place tonite and talk (I asked).
I have been going over this stuff and the situation in my mind all
week and it still doesn't make sense to me. I *really* envy those
people that have a great relationship. I'm really starting to feel
like there's this big secret out there and I'm clueless in finding
it. It's very depressing.
I feel as if I'm doing all the 'right' things ... and in this case
we even discussed up front what the 'right' things were and I stuck
to them ... still, the results are negative. I know that if she
doesn't want to try there is no hope for a girlfriend/boyfriend
relationship. Perhaps I could hear from the 'female' side of the
audience. What do you think she's dealing with from what I've stated?
Do you think the offer of friendship is a placeholder until she gets
herself stabilized ? Do you think it's a "Sorry, can't give you this
but as a consolation prize here's that (friendship)?" What do you
think could happen ?
|
| 115.5 | | ASDG::CALL | | Thu Mar 28 1996 10:02 | 7 |
| If the friendship is all she can offer you right now then you have to
decide if you can accept this. Sounds like you are moving way too fast
for her. Sometimes these all or nothing themes aren't good. My advice
to you is to not push the situation. Let go and try to be objective.
Get involved in other interests. If you develop into something more
then you do and if you don't then find someone who is willing and
ready.
|
| 115.6 | | TLE::PHILLIPS | | Thu Mar 28 1996 10:21 | 11 |
|
I've heard this before when talking to friends about past relationships ...
"I don't know why I trashed that relationship. She/he was available, a
very nice person, we shared common interests and enjoyed spending time
together. But ..."
I've been on both sides of this, and it isn't much fun. It takes two
people who both want to be together, feel comfortable with each other, ...
to make a relationship possible. Its pretty frustrating and difficult
being in either position. Its also hard to know if the situation is
temporary ... or will never change.
|
| 115.7 | | POWDML::HANGGELI | Little Chamber of Full Body Frisks | Thu Mar 28 1996 10:23 | 51 |
|
These are the parts I'm focusing on:
>Two nights later I noticed an extreme change in her actions. It was obvious.
>Something was wrong so. So I asked.
What happened during those two nights? Were you together or apart?
Did she receive some sort of news, go out with friends, what?
>This time, I didn't argue with her or negotiate I just wrote her a
>long letter basically saying how much the relationship had meant to me and
>what she meant to me and that I loved her but Goodbye.
>...
>So, we talked and she asked "Does it have to be all or nothing ?"
Speaking from personal experience, this is the crux of the biscuit.
When I felt I needed some time and space from my ex to decide
whether or not I was able to continue the marriage, he flatly refused -
either we stay together or we get divorced, all or nothing. No
separation. It seems as if she feels you're an all or nothing guy, and
she needs space right now, but doesn't want to give up the relationship
totally, and thinks that she doesn't have that choice. Is this
possible? At this point, if you say all or nothing it's likely you'll
get nothing, because she wouldn't be 'asking for space' if she didn't
really, really need it.
> o She can't bring to the relationship the things she feels are required
> for a commited relationship - (basically, it's the feeling of loss of
> freedom and independence. Freedom to spend her time doing things for
> herself and not feeling like she needs to check with me before doing
> it and feeling guilty for doing it.)
Do YOU insist that these things are needed? If you don't, have you
told her? Everyone's idea of a committed relationship is different.
If she wants to do things for herself, and you (even unwittingly) make
her feel she shouldn't, she's not going to be happy.
It seems to me, and I could be wrong, of course, that you two were
spending all your time together. Have you considered at this point
setting up a "schedule" of time to be together and time to be apart?
Then she could have the time she wants to do things for herself without
feeling guilty about it, or having to "check" with you, and you would
still have time together, as friends or more, whatever happens.
You never know; she may find she misses you when you're apart.
Conversely, if things don't progress back from the 'friendship' stage,
at least this way you're slowing down the relationship so it wouldn't
be a total cut-off if it does turn out to be nothing rather than all.
Whatever happens, best of luck.
|
| 115.8 | Anon replies... | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Here I am, my anger and me | Thu Mar 28 1996 15:47 | 45 |
|
The following reply is being posted anonymously, by the author of the
base note. You may contact the author by mail, by sending your communication
to me and I'll be glad to forward it on. Your message will be forwarded with
your name attached, unless you request otherwise.
Joe
* * *
Thanks again for the input people. Regarding some of the comments in
the feedback:
o Accepting the 'friendship' offer ....
Well, I agree with an earlier comment from someone that it would be
extremely hard to conduct a 'friendship'-only relationship once
you've been down the sexual-togetherness road that we were on. Again,
I stress that she and I were very attracted to each other. I am
afraid that I would just be torturing myself every time I saw her or
I'ld be really jealous if I saw her with someone else. I guess what
I need to know from her is if this friendship proposal is a legit
relationship.
o Setting up schedules ....
Her and I both have children and we actually set our schedules up so
that we had our 'free' weekends together. When she first told me
about the time problem in January, I would come over after school
at about 8:00 PM ... we'ld watch a little TV or I'ld help her with
some of her craft stuff and wait for the kids to go to sleep then
I'ld be with her until about midnight when I'ld get up and go home.
This was too much (I agreed) and I started going home at 10:00 unless
it was a night we made love then I would stay in bed with her until
she fell off to sleep. The past few months I had cut back to seeing
her only once during the week. We stopped doing combined family
nights on the weekends we had the kids and she sleep over only on
Saturday night the w'ends we had free. Friday night became her
going-out-and-doing-her-own-thing-night. She works Sat AM and would
come over to my house after she got out of work. We'ld spend Sat.
night doing something and Sunday we'ld laze around together until
her kids came home at 5:00 PM.
|
| 115.9 | anon basenoter replies | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Here I am, my anger and me | Fri Apr 19 1996 11:34 | 90 |
|
The following reply is being posted anonymously. You may contact
the author by mail, by sending your communication to me and I'll be glad to
forward it on. Your message will be forwarded with your name attached,
unless you request otherwise.
Joe
Well, it's been about a month since the 'official' breakup and I'ld
like to update this note and solicit some more feedback as to what
people think of the situation. I am still rather confused and very
nervous about things. I had a few responses from people that basically
said 'Just let things go and see what happens' .... well, here's what
happened. What do you all think ?
I think in the last note I posted I said I was going over to her house
to 'talk' with her about the relationship. That stemmed from a
conversation I had with her on a Sunday night and we decided to get
together at her place on that Thursday night. I went over and the
kids were still up (8:00) ... I hadn't seen them for about two weeks.
Her littlest (David) jumped up on me shouting my name and gave me the
biggest hug. He wouldn't get off my lap until he went to bed at 8:30.
After the kids went to bed she just sat down on the couch and slid
right into my arms and leaned on me and said she was glad I came over
and we just watched TV for a while. I didnt' say much because I was
a bit taken aback. She told me she missed me. We never really finished
the conversation we had started that Sunday. We just enjoyed each
others company and when I left we kissed goodbye (not just a peck).
I invited her and the kids over my house on Sunday and she said OK.
They came over Sunday, we had a great day together (went to a park) and
again she was 'with' me all day (when I say with me I mean we held
hands, cuddled on the park bench, kissed frequently, etc.). That
Monday I called her up and she invited me over for Tuesday night.
Her EX takes the kids from 6-8 for dinner and sometimes we would take
the opportunity to go out ourselves and be back at her place for 8:00
..well she met me at the door, gave me a big kiss and says 'Do you
****really**** want to go out for dinner?' Guess where we wound up.
I didn't call her all week until Friday and she called me to go to
lunch. We had a great lunch, laughing, teasing each other, etc.
At this lunch she and I talked about a lot of things and some events
that were in the future (She initiated - not me). She invited me to
her daughter's 1st Communion (Tomorrow night) .... she invited me to
a wedding on June 1st (I specifically asked her if she was sure since
the wedding was 2 months out ! She said yes) ... She invited me to
her Mom's for Easter Dinner for that Sunday. Basically, everything
seemed back to being good ! I was really happy.
I didn't see her Friday nite or Sat nite but we went to church on
Easter morning together and we went for a little ride after church
and before going to her Mom's. Again, things came up in conversation
about events in the future that she would like to do with me. Great
Woods concert, camping, etc. We went to her Mom's had a great time
I left her house about 7:00 PM we kissed each other goodbye and I said
I'ld call her on Monday.
Ok - Now for the bad part.
I call her Monday nite and I can tell from the way she said 'hello'
that I was in trouble again. I talked with her for about 15 - 20
minutes and she was stone cold. I asked her at the endif something
was wrong but she said No. I asked to come over the next nite (Tues)
and she said No - can't do it - busy. I asked about Thursday and she
said 'sounds OK but call me later in the week'. On Wed. she called me
at 6:00 PM and basically asked to take a raincheck for Thursday nite.
I was POed at this point and abrubtly said goodbye - I gotta go.
I didn't call her for the rest of the week. On Sunday she called me
twice but we really didn't talk much, just 'how are you, how was your
weekend, etc.' - So now I'm back wondering what the hell is going on
here. I decided I needed to talk to her in person and try to sort
this out. I went over to her work at lunch on Monday to take her
out and talk but she couldn't leave the office (she was covering phone)
We just chitchatted about nothing for a little bit and I asked to
come over on Tuesday nite. She said OK. I went back to work and
she called me about 3:00 and said she needed to take a 'raincheck' on
Tuesday. She then preempted any followup by letting me know how busy
her schedule was for the rest of the week. I just swallowed my anger
and said OK. I haven't spoken to her since and it's Friday and I don't
know what to do about her daughter's 1st Communion tomorrow not to
mention this other stuff. I really can't see her in person until
Sunday (if I don't go to the 1st communion party) and I ***really***
don't want to do this on the phone.
What does everyone think ? Should I just call her up and tell her to
forget about the party tomorrow nite but I'ld like to talk to her on
Sunday or should I just forget everything or what.
|
| 115.10 | | ASDG::CALL | | Fri Apr 19 1996 11:59 | 7 |
| If she needs space then give it to her...she must have some things to
work out that don't involve you. You cannot get angry with her if it
doesn't go to your terms. She should however communicate with you that
she has something she has to work out.
Go to the communion and have a good time. If it's something she wants
to tell you she will.
|
| 115.11 | my opinion | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Here I am, my anger and me | Fri Apr 19 1996 12:08 | 28 |
|
She sounds like some sort of "bipolar" or "bistable" personality
type to me. That is, when she's in one state of being, everything's
wonderful...bed of roses, etc. But when she "flips" over to her other
state of being (which may very likely have nothing to do with you)
it's, well, as you said "As soon as I heard her voice, I knew I was in
trouble".
There's nothing wrong with someone being this way. It's all a
matter of whether *you* can tolerate it, because from my experience,
it can be *crazy making*. It takes a lot to be able to sort it out;
disconnect your feelings from how she is, depersonalize her response
to you, go through the disappointments, etc.
From my removed vantage point, I see her behavior as a warning.
You might choose to make a herculean effort at dealing with this aspect
of how she is, or you might choose to let her pass by. If she was in
therapy and working hard at uncovering and going through her deepest
core issues, eventually this behavior (if what I'm glimpsing is even
correct) could change in both frequency and degree. But, even so, you
may become "emotionally spent" in dealing with this, by the time she's
making such progress in her recovery.
I guess I just want to say that if you choose to continue with this
woman, get set for dealing with this "stone cold !&$#" regularly. And
that it's really hard to do on a regular basis.
Joe.
|
| 115.12 | | TALLIS::NELSON | It's not the years it's the mileage! | Fri Apr 19 1996 16:24 | 31 |
|
It sounds like you're going backwards -- before at least she would
talk, now you can't even get her to do *that*. Once communication
breaks down that far, it gets tough.
> and said OK. I haven't spoken to her since and it's Friday and I don't
> know what to do about her daughter's 1st Communion tomorrow not to
> mention this other stuff. I really can't see her in person until
> Sunday (if I don't go to the 1st communion party) and I ***really***
> don't want to do this on the phone.
I hear you about not doing it on the phone, but I'm not sure you'll
have a choice here. I'd call her, tell her you're confused/hurt by
these about faces, and you'd like to talk to understand what's going
on. One thing you might try is to say you're not sure if you should
come to the 1st Communion or not, and let that lead you into the more
broader topic at hand.
I would try to talk to her once more, but if she won't talk or
simply gives you the same line she's been giving you: run, don't walk,
away. I think this woman needs more than space -- she needs *help*.
It's perfectly natural for life events to affect how you feel about
someone completely disconnected from those events from time to time.
But not, in my opinion, to this degree.
Brian
|
| 115.13 | Anon Basenoter replies | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Here I am, my anger and me | Mon Apr 22 1996 14:20 | 107 |
|
The following reply is being posted anonymously, by the author of the
base note. You may contact the author by mail, by sending your communication
to me and I'll be glad to forward it on. Your message will be forwarded with
your name attached, unless you request otherwise.
Joe
* * *
Well, I think I can close out this note now. Your advice and analysis
was very helpfull (especially Joe & Brian). It's over and I need to
move on. I will conclude with what happened this weekend so that you
get the 'finished product' and perhaps that way other people in this
situation will benefit from it.
I didn't call her until Saturday morning. When I did, I was totally
wrong on the 1st Communion date ! It's May 19th. So that got me off
the hook for that night. I talked to her a little bit and asked if she
still wanted to see me on Sunday and she said yes. We talked about
having a little BBQ and maybe go for a drive. I got there around noon
and she told me her Mom had invited us over for dinner. So we spent
the afternoon together. Didn't talk about anything serious just kind
of caught up with each other and stuff. She was friendly but nowhere
near what she usually is with me (affectionate). I had softball that
afternoon in Lowell, MA at 5:30 so I asked if I could drop by on the
way home to talk to her. I changed in her Bedroom before leaving. I
did notice that she had removed all of my pictures from her room so I
guess that wasn't a good sign. Anyways, I came back about 8:30 and
I started with "I'ld like to talk about us. I feel like the game has
changed again and I don't know the rules. I'm feeling confused and
I need some clarification on what's going on. I think I'm reading the
signals wrong." I went over some of the conflicting actions, etc.
that I posted in another note in here. She acknowleged them all and
said that she didn't see what was wrong with that.
She said that she's been very happy this past month with the way things
are in her life. I asked her what that meant. She said, I told
you that I didn't want the relationship, I don't want all that
responsibility, I don't want to feel I owe anybody anything. I thought
I wanted that type of relationship I had with you but I was wrong. I
tried and it just didn't work. I like having my friends and going out
and doing things with them, I have my kids, and I go out with you when
I feel like it and that's all I want. She said there was noone else
involved and that she wasn't looking for someone else.
She got kinda ticked that she felt I kept asking these questions about
the relationship and that she thought she was very clear in saying she
didnt' want it the way I wanted it. I tried to bring up some of the
suggestions in here about defining what would be acceptable or not
(essentially trying to work the issues and come to a compromise) but
at this point she was getting angry. She said "What's the point ?',
I said "to discuss this" and she said "I don't feel we need to discuss
this - I told you what I didn't want. I feel you're just going to keep
probeing until you get the answer YOU want." "That's not a discussion".
I told her I didn't understand this hostility and that she was making
it sound like I was attacking her and I didn't feel I was doing that.
I just wanted to understand what the hell went wrong with two people
who had so much going for them ! She said "so what - people change
their minds. I tried and it didn't work - get over it and move on".
She said "You'll understand when you've got a woman sitting across
from you saying and doing the things you're doing to me".
"It's hard, it's unfair, but I have to do what I think is right for
me and what's right for me is to not be in a relationship. I feel
comfortable the way things are."
So I said, "Really that's what I came in here to find out - what is
the way things are now !" "Can I be comfortable with this. Like I
said - the rules changed but nobody told me. I'm just asking for the
rules - to understand." So I asked her if she was comfortable with
the way things are then was she still interested in seeing me. She
said she didn't think so. I asked why - because of this ? And she
said yes - I don't have to keep explaining my actions to my other
friends, they just accept me for who I am. You're trying to get inside
my head and I'm not going to let you.
At this point nothing was going right .... I was totally disappointed
in how I read this situation and this person. She made some comment
about how I should think about getting some help perhaps with CODA.
I said what ? She said I was Codependant ! I said 'With you ?' and
she said 'not necessarily, but an ideal' 'you want this high level,
emotional, commited relationship and you thought thats what you were
getting from me. When it didn't turn out that way you can't accept
it and you keep trying to make it that way.' 'I don't think it's love
you are really feeling'. Maybe I'm more confused than I thought.
Well, the end came. I am very sad over the loss but am even sadder by
the feeling that I somehow didn't understand things. I totally misread
things and that is sooooooo scary ! How can I express the feeling of
bewilderment ? What the hell went on ? Was I really doing what she
said I was doing - looking only for MY answer ? Am I really
codependant on an ideal ?
To me: I met someone very nice ---> we hit it off and decided to have
an exclusive relationship (which to me meant commitment) --->
we fell in love ---> we supported each other in some tough
situations ---> we got along great and enjoyed each other --->
???????????????????????????????
...... then next thing I know she's bailing out.
I just don't get it.
signed,
Sad_and_confused
|
| 115.14 | | OOYES::WEIER | Patty, DTN 381-0877 | Mon Apr 22 1996 15:06 | 38 |
| Sad_and_confused,
Sorry to hear all that you're being put through!! Love is so hard ...
especially when it's not reciprocated, and not what we'd hoped for
and/or counted on.
My "uneducated" guess at what's going on here;
1. She's been perfectly honest about what she wants. She wants you
when she wants you, and when she doesn't, she doesn't. If she feels
either of you getting "too close", she's going to snap away, instantly.
2. She probably enjoys the chase, more than the catch. She likes to
chase you, lure you back, and when she's sure she has you, she's done.
3. I don't think that emotionally, any of this is particularly
meaningful to her, and that she's probably dealing with (or NOT dealing
with, just affected by) some HUGE issues of her own.
4. If falling in love and living happily ever after, makes you
co-dependant, than lord have mercy on us all - it's a dream that many
many of us share (and I guess I need to seek counseling (-;).
5. One of the best ways of diffusing guilt, is through blame. If I
blame *YOU* for the way that something is, then I can rationalize it
all to myself, and *I* don't have to look at how I am, or that I might
be wrong, or have acted wrongly. The best defense is a strong offense.
You've been through enough already - don't let her make you second
guess yourself. If you want to be with her, it's probably possible, but
not in a way that would ever please or satisfy you. If you're willing
to stay at arm's length, and make HER chase YOU, then you can probably
stay in her life indefinitely. But who really wants to remain aloof,
when they're hoping to find a lasting love??
Good luck with whatever you decide.
-Patty
|
| 115.15 | I'm sorry. | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Here I am, my anger and me | Mon Apr 22 1996 15:58 | 83 |
|
As I was reading this on my way to putting it in here, I decided
that I just *had* to reply. I think I've been through the same kind of
thing.
First off, you and what you did are perfectly okay. Dont buy into
that "turn it back on you" type of manipulation - that *you're* looking
for your answer, that *you're* trying to make it into something it's
not. All you wanted was some understanding and you _valued_ things
enough with her to stay with it for an appropriate amount of time to
be able to reach some understanding.
There's a big difference between valuing someone in your life -
and being codependent on them. Yeah, if you merely value someone, you're
still gonna fight for them a little bit, or extend yourself for things
to stay nice, or at least make some sense to you! There's gonna be some
energy expended; the other person is going to feel and sense your
effort.
I think (again, from my removed vantage point) that this is the
point where she turned negative and angry; when she felt some energy
around your interest in her. I'd guess she has issues around trust and
control. Perhaps there was an incident in her past when someone gave off
energy in the context of "an interest in her" - and it was really bad
for her. Your level of interest may have aroused a memory, threatened her
security, scared her and caused her to "tighten" her grips on the ideals
she has which keeps her safe, autonomous and seperate.
Nothin wrong with her being safe and doing what she has to do to
maintain her own sense of security - I just dont like the way she put it
all on you; it's "your non-acceptance" and "you're not really feeling
love" and "you getting over it" and "what you're doing to her" as the
reason to necessarily end it all - it seems terribly self-justifying to
me. And, you probably dont deserve it "all" being put on you. Perhaps
another guy at another time, did. But this time, she played her hand
too.
You know, it's no wonder she wouldnt let you "into her head". You
might find a number of justifications there that are simply bullsh*t -
and challenge them by bringing them to her attention - along with
another viewpoint. What a painful discussion that would be...instead,
you should be like her other friends who "just accept her as she is" and
probably offer her nothing that's remotely challenging or difficult for
her to hear.
On the other hand, perhaps she gave it a good honest shot with you
and trully found that for her, the difficulty presented by being in a
relationship outweighed the pleasures and furtune of getting to be in
one. Not the difficulty you presented (by being so persistant about
clarification) but rather an internal difficulty she has between her
and herself. That might be really something, because of how flippant
she is (once she's "in" a relationship) and how guarded she is about
just what's inside her head.
I would have been more pleased to read "what's right for me is to
not be in a relationship AND WORK ON MY RECOVERY". Rather than to read
her telling you how *you* need to be working on a recovery from your
supposed codependency -
Anyway, sometimes we do get into things with people who find for
themselves, over time, that they're just not ready. It's painful and
unfortunate when those of us who are ready, get involved with someone
whom, perhaps with the best intentions, believe that they're ready only
to find in time that they're not anywhere near it.
Intentions are irrelevant and you have legitimate feelings of anger
and bewilderment and perhaps even self-doubt. I'm sorry that this
happened to you. I hope that some of what I wrote can help allieviate
at least the self-doubt part. Cause I dont think it was fair for her to
have put it all on you, so she could walk off feeling all okay and
have it all wrapped up just so in her own head.
Major difference of values between the two of you. Whatever it was
that you had and felt together, she didnt feel it was worth the
challenge, the difficulty, the effort necessary to make it work. You
did. That stinks, but it's okay. Who knows what the level of "effort"
and "difficulty" it was for her; she wasnt about to let you get near
it. This is where someone's lack of trust and guardedness might be
ultimately deleterious to their own well being. You may have been able
to help her though some growth issues, perhaps just be being who you
are. That's a tradgedy in every sense of the word.
Joe
|
| 115.16 | grr | TARKIN::BREWER | | Tue Apr 23 1996 09:42 | 29 |
|
THis ticks me off. It REALLY bothers me when everyone gets
into analyzing the person who is not speaking for themselves.
Maybe she means this maybe she means that. Never mind what
she means..what did she say ???
I "heard" her say, "no". I heard her say , "this isn't working for
me". I heard her say (all accordning to the basenoters quotes)
that,
"she thought this was what she wanted but it's not"
He asked for more than that..she said some other stuff.
The bottom line is it takes TWO people to be "IN" a relationship.
She's not "IN".
Should the basenoter have feelings about that ? SUre.
Lots of them. But figuring out HER PROBLEMS and deciding
or (making up) what SHE's thinking is...
in my opinion...
codependant.
suggestion. Get out of her head.
My 25 cents.
dot
|
| 115.17 | Anon basenoter replies | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Here I am, my anger and me | Tue Apr 23 1996 11:29 | 57 |
|
The following reply is being posted anonymously, by the author of the
base note. You may contact the author by mail, by sending your communication
to me and I'll be glad to forward it on. Your message will be forwarded with
your name attached, unless you request otherwise.
Joe
* * *
RE: -1 reply by Dot
*I* asked for help in analyzing this situation because it doesn't seem
to make sense. No she can't participate in this forum because she's
not a Deccie but I swear I haven't misrepresented the facts.
Yes she's said "No - I don't want this relationship" several times if
you've read through the entire string. The issue is she keeps coming
back and INITIATING contact and by her ACTIONS (and to some degree
her words - talking about future things/dates/etc. that we would both
do together. All this AFTER she's supposedly broken up with me and
AFTER saying No - I don't want the relationship !) What - I don't
have any business asking her what's that all about ?????? I care a
lot for her and she has told me and shown me she loves me (Again -
even up to the Easter day we spent together which was two weeks ago,
the last words out of her mouth when I went home was 'I love you'.
This wasn't something I pryed out of her or tricked her into saying,
I believe she meant it and it was heartfelt.) Do you know how much
this hurts to then call the next night and have her turn a deaf ear
to your words ?
Re: Codependant - I *might* be at that. I don't know enough about it
other than some of the strings of info that appear in this notes file.
I read pieces of 'Codependant No More' but am very skeptical about
labeling. How am I showing signs of being codependant ? Please
enlighten me. I don't feel I live my life through her. I don't feel
all my selfworth is tied to being in a relationship with her. I know I
do feel much more secure, confident, and happy being in a relationship
and that is my preference. Do I have to be in *THIS* one ? NO. But
I want to and I really think it's a shame to throw trash a potentially
great relationship with a future if there is some way to save it. Are
you saying my attempts at probing at the causes (from her view) are
coodependant ?
Regards,
Sad_but_getting_better
P.S. (Oh by the way ..... She called me last night at dinner time to
tell me she finally used the BBQ grill that I gave her for Easter. She
was very pleasent and nice and we talked for about 20 minutes. She
NEVER mentioned aanything about the night before and no appologies or
"I've been thinking about what you and I talked about ...." or
anything. At the end of the conversation I thanked her for calling and
said it was nice. She said in a vary UP voice "Yeah, it was ! I'll
call you later in the week." What do you make of that ?)
|
| 115.18 | | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Here I am, my anger and me | Tue Apr 23 1996 11:36 | 9 |
|
I make of it that if you're willing to squeeze yourself into a
her-shaped box (i.e., be the way that *she's* most comfortable with,
instead of the way you really are) - then she can be happy with you.
Someone who's codependant will do that sort of thing, to effect
or keep a relationship. I dont think that's what you're doing...
Joe
|
| 115.19 | | OOYES::WEIER | Patty, DTN 381-0877 | Tue Apr 23 1996 11:37 | 30 |
| Dot,
I can't seem to find any thing in either of their actions that makes
them "dependant" on each other.
She spun everything around and dumped it all on HIM, and started
blaming him for it all. He wants to understand this. He's open enough
to LISTEN to what she's saying, and question if perhaps, some of what
she's saying is right. He's ASKING for more interpretation (opinions
from us) of what might be going on. If we were in the same boat, what
would we be thinking?? Does that make everyone that replies,
codependant, or dependant on her??
As for "what did she say"? What she's SAID and then what's she's
turned around and DONE have never been consistent .... so in this case, you
can't just go by words alone. If her words and actions were
consistent, he may still be sad, but he certainly wouldn't be nearly so
confused.
She's doing this "C'mere c'mere c'mere c'mere. Go away, go away go
away go away!" over and over. Who WOULDN'T be trying to figure out
what's really right?!?! Especially when she means a lot to him, and
he's leary of tossing something out the window if there's "other"
circumstances (aside from him) that are forcing this behaviour.
People are trying to "analyze" because she's been very inconsistent,
and all at the cost of this other person's emotions and trust. To the
point of inflicting self-doubt. She SAID no. And then she invited him
to bed. Wouldn't you be confused?!?!?
|
| 115.20 | | OOYES::WEIER | Patty, DTN 381-0877 | Tue Apr 23 1996 11:42 | 1 |
| (.19 clashed with .17 and .18)
|
| 115.21 | sorry | TARKIN::BREWER | | Tue Apr 23 1996 12:05 | 38 |
|
I want to retract the whole thing and apologize.
I completely and totally personalized and over reacted
and I own that. I have had two different people harrass and
annoy me..to the point of jumping out of bushes at me
after I broke up with them. After I told them "I am out fo this"
because they DEMANDED to know what I was thinking. and..
would procede to TELL me what was thinking.
I took last few notes out of context.
I apologize.
To me, codependancy (and I don't care for the
label either...I like that there are places to go talk about
boundaries and what they are and where to get them..as in
who am I-seperate from other people)
has a lot of sides and characteristics and ways of being
acted out. In this case, sounds like there is
yo-yoing going on . When I read it the first time, I only
saw the "no"...re-reading I see the
inconsistancy.
reaction rather than action..reacting to something not said..
like what I did here earlier can even be a form of codependancy.
I didn't catch the whole drift...jumped to a conclusion
based on my own personal filters and feelings..and RE-acted.
I probably ought not note when I haven't got the time to
ingest the entire string.
to basenoter..
my apologies.
Dot
|
| 115.22 | | MPGS::PHILL | In casual pursuit of serenity. | Tue Apr 23 1996 15:27 | 19 |
| Dot,
I don't think you were that far off. Maybe you did leap in and I do admire
your appology.
It is confusing when somebody says one thing and does another. It is
confusing when you are playing a game where the rules keep changing. The only
thing that seems to be consistent here is that she does not want a committed
relationship. Hanging around and expecting that to change seems pretty
fruitless.
I don't belive this is over. So long as she has Sad_but_getting_better on
the end of a bungy cord it will continue. There is a relationship. Not a
committed relationship.
I've never seen a clean definition of codependence. Even the experts seem
to say there is no clear definition. There is some good reading out there in
that area it's not for me to say who is or isn't co-dependent.
Peter.
|