| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 113.1 | | LJSRV1::BOURQUARD | Deb | Mon Mar 04 1996 15:37 | 23 |
| Here's what I heard you say:
"I really don't love Bill anymore, but I'm considering staying
in the relationship because our son loves his father."
In my opinion, one of the greatest gifts we can give our children
is the benefit of observing firsthand a warm, loving, supportive
relationship between adults. That relationship may or may not
include both biological parents. And when the relationship
is neither warm, loving, nor supportive, you aren't doing the kids
any favors by staying together.
My advice: get counseling for yourself to help you get a
better perspective on where you want to go from here. If you
really believe the relationship is salvageable (and it sounds
like it was wonderful once -- could you regain that magic?),
request that he go with you to couples counseling. And do try to
remember that his decision to have nothing to do with your son
is purely his decision. Period.
Good luck.
- Deb B.
|
| 113.2 | | FABSIX::K_KAMAR | | Tue Mar 05 1996 08:31 | 3 |
| I agree with Deb.
Good luck & be strong. :-) *** Kathy ***
|
| 113.3 | | ASABET::pelkey.ogo.dec.com::pelkey | professional hombre | Tue Mar 05 1996 09:21 | 44 |
| Hi Patty ..
I'm usually read only,,, and i feel that
none of this is my business,,,
but,, How bout a guys point of view ?
First, let me say that we're hearing your
side of the story, and "his" side goes
unrepresented, but regardless,,,
Bill seems really messed up, the divorce has probably
done more damage than he's willing to admit.. the
weight thing is probably one of the prime indicators
that Bill's lost a lot of respect for himself, and
just doesn't care... I can't imagine the turmoil
that must be going on inside his head these days..
I do feel for the guy...
But, I just gotta wonder if he takes the relationship
with you, and the presence of the child you had
together seriously, or at least as seriously
as you do or as seriously as his first marriages
children.. The Valentines day thing strikes me
odd, but then I wonder,, are his other two children
Daughters ? (I've got two kids myself, a daughter and a son..)
While I've always given my wife and daughter cards, and
flowers on Valentines day, I can't recall giving my son
anything on Valentines day.. (Might be a guy thing..)
At anyrate, all this being said, not every realationship
is ever lasting, and this one, for what ever reason
could have indeed just gone south.
I've seen many people stay together in a disfunctional
relationship for the good of the kids.. let me tell
ya something, this isn't gonna do the kid ANY good
and worse for you.
IF you're asking for advice on where to go here,
I think you may already have answered that one Patty..
Listen to your heart, follow that lead.
|
| 113.4 | n | FABSIX::J_ROUSSEAU | | Tue Mar 05 1996 12:27 | 14 |
| Patty,
You said he will only see your son if you two are together. You also
said when he is there that he pays very little attention to your son
anyway, so do you really think he (your son) is getting anything from
this relationship other than the fact that daddy likes his other
children more than me?? In the long run he may grow to resent his dad
and the other children because of this. Children see and know a lot
more than we think. If he sees that you are with his daddy but that
you are unhappy it may effect him very deeply later on. Just some
points to think about.....
Jill
|
| 113.5 | Good Luck | AKOCOA::PAYDOS | | Tue Mar 05 1996 12:31 | 46 |
| Hi,
Sorry about your troubles - we all have them I suppose. Anyway, just
to let you know - if he is saying that he wants nothing to do with
his son if you leave him - I say so be it. He is trying to hold that
over your head to keep you where you are - it's a control thing. If
you split up and he decides not to see his son, your son will be okay.
It will take a lot of work on your part because you'll be playing both
roles (mom & dad) but you can do it. I've done it. My ex has nothing
to do with our one and only son and over the years (7) he has popped in
and out of his life. When he pops out I have to pick up the emotional
pieces. Some day your son will figure it out for himself and NOT HOLD
IT AGAINST YOU. My son is 17 and knows through painful experience that
it's his mother who has always been there for him. I've had him in and
out of counceling for years and he is finally accepting the problem. I
think things would get much worse if you stayed with him. You may
never get a good male role-model for your son - I never did.
On another note regarding the way he treats your kids (his are perfect
yours aren't) I suspect that's because he is a "part-time" father with
his children - they aren't around enough for him to have to deal with
the day-to-day activities and problems children can dump on us - when
his kids do visit they would naturally be on good behavior - if they
moved in with you - he have a chance to see their true colors and the
problems might stop. I know this first hand too because I re-married
(way too soon after my divorce) and ended up in the same situation -
his kids are really good - mine not. It can be very hard on a
relationship.
My relationship is going South too so I can relate to how you feel. I
bought a big beautiful house with this man (I put down 12k - he put
down nothing) and now I'm in a situation that in order for me to have a
happy life (my son too) that I have to leave and give up my house.
Well, it's worth it because the negatives out-weigh the positives (he's
a drunk - big time) so I'm walking away from it ALL in the Summer or at
least that's my plan - I'm just waiting for my son to graduate in June.
Life is too short to feel misreable all the time and we only get one
chance here.
I think you should "call it quits" and get on with your life as soon as
you can - you'll bounce back...(so will I).
Good luck,
Colleen
|
| 113.6 | Get on with your life (without him)! | WRKSYS::MATTSON | | Tue Mar 05 1996 12:44 | 23 |
| This sounds painful, and also similar to situations I've been in, none
of which worked out, I might add. I think it would be an absolute
disaster to move in with him at this point. Your relationship seems to
have gotten into a dynamic where he is so busy rebelling against your
wishes, that it takes his attention off the real problem--himself. He
is being manipulative of you and going out of his way to push your
buttons. i would take any threats--such as saying he'll never see your
son again--with a grain of salt. He's saying things like this at least
partly because he knows they will work, to control you. I may sound
negative toward this guy, but I've been where you are. You, as a single
mother, do not need another overgrown child to take care of. you sound
pretty hardworking and committed to personal growth and responsibility.
You deserve an equal partner. What went wrong with him,I don't know. He
is very likely depressed, and needs help. But he has to want it, and
you might have to get out of the loop for him to see it. Trust me,
there is NOTHING YOU CAN DO to get someone to change, unless they want
to. I've tried and it's never worked. It doesn't sound like this is
meeting many of your needs any more, anyway, so you're probably better
off without it. It's possible that, once he doesn't have you to rebel
against, he will make some efforts to work on his problems. But you
can't count on that. Just get on with your life. There are lots of nice
guys out there, who take responsibility for themselves. Good luck.
Anne
|
| 113.7 | More infor | OOYES::WEIER | Patty, DTN 381-0877 | Tue Mar 05 1996 12:52 | 160 |
| re: Thanks for the replies on and off line ....
First, to clarify, I do still love "Bill". I'm not 100% sure if that
love is based on the present (because, geez, you'd have to wonder!), or
the past - because BOY was it awesome!!
I *THINK* I know that somewhere deep inside, is the man that I fell so
hopelessly in love with in the first place. And that if he could get
himself figured out, he'd be that man, and we'd share that love, again.
Occassionally there are glimpses of all of this.
>Bill seems really messed up, the divorce has probably
>done more damage than he's willing to admit.. the
>weight thing is probably one of the prime indicators
>that Bill's lost a lot of respect for himself, and
>just doesn't care... I can't imagine the turmoil
>that must be going on inside his head these days..
>I do feel for the guy...
You're 100% correct on this. He thinks **NOTHING** of himself at all,
and can't find the strength or motivation to do anything about that.
This is where/why I try to encourage him to get involved with other
things himself. And these are the sorts of things I think need to be
working 100% before we can be together. For "Us" to be happy as a
couple, we must EACH first be happy as individuals, and then try to
share that with each other. As long as he's unhappy with himself, I
fear that nothing will work.
But how does someone become happy with themselves?? I'd hoped that
counseling would help him, but he's gotten nowhere with it, and ACTS
just as worthless. If you ASK him if he likes himself, he'll say he
does, but he doesn't seem to see the self-destructive path he's on.
I understand where he is, and why he's there. I understand that "we"
will never work, unless HE starts to heal. But is there anything that
I can do to help that healing???
In a sentence - He's so afraid of failing, or losing more, that he'll
try nothing.
He's afraid he won't lose weight, so he doesn't bother trying.
He's afraid he won't do well at a new hobby (dancing etc) that he won't
try it.
He's scared to get involved in the community again, because he doesn't
want to lose it again.
....and I think he's afraid of "losing" Jonathan, which is why he
refuses to get really close to him.
And key to it all, is that he feels he has ***NO*** control over
anything at all that happens in his life. If he chooses something that
doesn't turn out right, he'll simply state that that was what he HAD to
do, to please so-and-so, and he didn't have a choice.
I understand WHY he's like this. It makes both of us miserable. But
is there anything that I can do to help??
>But, I just gotta wonder if he takes the relationship
>with you, and the presence of the child you had
>together seriously, or at least as seriously
>as you do or as seriously as his first marriages
>children..
Well, I've never thought of it exactly that way, but reading those
words, and feeling the sting that went with it, I've got to believe
you've hit the nail right on the head. But now what??
>The Valentines day thing strikes me odd, but then I wonder,, are his
>other two children Daughters ? (I've got two kids myself, a daughter
>and a son..)
His other two children are a girl and a boy. He doesn't particularly
care for sons, and most definitely wanted Jonathan to be a girl, and
was sorely disappointed to find out I was carrying a boy (well, so much
so, that he left 3 days later). He is enraptured with his daughter -
or at least he used to be. He's said, straight out that he likes girls
better than boys, because he feels more empathetic towards them.
Though lately, he's been brushing his daughter aside, and had her in
tears this whole past weekend from treating her so "casually". (ie she
was snuggling with him, and he just pushed him off of her and told her
to sit up and stop it .... it was so sad I almost cried.... She did.)
>IF you're asking for advice on where to go here,
>I think you may already have answered that one Patty..
This becomes so hard .... IF I knew that this was IT for the
relationship, and that he wouldn't heal, and would never be the person
he used to be, and the person that I know he will be when/if he gets
"back on his feet", then I'd have no problem walking on out.
The problem is, I know that SOMEday, he's going to HAVE to get on with
getting on. And someday, I predict, he'll be whole again, and be
someone that I would be very attracted to (and vice versa). And I keep
trying to "hold on" waiting for that to happen while I'm "here". But
I've been holding on for years .... and I'm getting tired of it.
Has anyone been successful at helping someone else "up" when they're at
rock bottom?? Am I "too close" to the situation to be ABLE to help??
His side of the story ... well, I can tell you that, based on what he
says to me, when he decides he wants to talk (seldom);
************
BILL: I have no control over anything. I can't do what I want to do.
Patty's always asking me to do things, Ann's always asking me to do
things, and I don't have any time to do things for myself. I have to
make sure that everyone else is happy, and no one cares if I'M happy or
not {that's just his perception, and not at all true}. I don't know
what I want from life, from myself, and there's no point in trying to
find out, because I wouldn't be able to do it anyway. I wish that
everyone would just leave me alone, let me come and go as I please, and
be there when I need them, or when I want to see them. Patty has her
own life, and does what she wants to do. How the hell can she do that
to me?!? Her world should revolve around me, and sometimes it feels
like she doesn't notice I'm here. How does she keep having goals and
dreams, and I can't figure any out?? It's not FAIR!!
I'm also very jealous that my parents have recently retired and bought
another home in Florida. How come they never had problems like this??
They expect it to be SO SIMPLE for me, and it's not at all simple, no
matter what I do. Who cares what I do?? No one does. Not even me.
I'd like to, but what's the point? I think I might like to live in
Florida. Then I could be with my parents again, and there wouldn't be
all these other things to bug me all the time. I have to stay behind,
and deal with all this crap, all by myself, AND try to take care of my
older brother who's always broke, and always comes to me for handouts.
I don't mind helping, but I feel used.
*******
To which I say "Phooey! Stand up for yourself, be your own person, and
get on with it! Let the chips fall where they may!"
As you can guess, that doesn't get me anywhere.... (-:
So, guys especially, if you heard someone make that sort of "speech",
or you yourself made it, what would be the most effective response??
I'm just *REALLY* struggling with giving up on this guy. There's still
a lot of love there.... it's just the "like" is gone for now ....
What do I WANT?!?!
Hmmmmmmmm ... I WANT it to work. I WANT us to both be HAPPY together,
and happy as individuals. I want to have things/hobbies for/to myself,
that are something that would be interesting to him, if I were to talk
about it, and vice versa. I want to have things/hobbies that we both
share, and can do together. I want to make tomorrow's Happy Memories.
I don't mind working for things. I'll even just "wait it out" if
that's what it takes. I'll talk until I'm blue in the face, or listen
for a decade, if it mattered at all ..... I'm willing, just don't have
a clue what to DO !!! ....and I must confess that sometimes, this
attitude of his reminds me of a child, and more than a couple times
I've told him to stop acting like a helpless teenager and just *DO*
something for himself. Can you say "ineffective"??
Words of wisdom?? ... and if you think this isn't "any of your
business", well, me writing it in here, has more or less made it
"public" information, and I'm asking for your opinions ....
Thanks again!
Patty
|
| 113.8 | | OOYES::WEIER | Patty, DTN 381-0877 | Tue Mar 05 1996 13:11 | 45 |
| RE: a few replies were added here while I was writing my own ....
Boy, it's always been real hard for me to "quit" on something, but it
seems like I'm not left with much choice, huh?
Does he WANT to change? At some level, I'm sure he does. At a much
higher level, he's not willing to admit anything's WRONG, so that makes
the WANTING to part, a moot point.
He'd like to be happy again. He has no clue how to get there.
Boy am I an idiot - I never thought of the "not seeing Jonathan" thing
as a power play, but it clearly is. He KNOWS that I'd do ANYTHING to
try to keep Jonathan's family intact. I never put 2 and 2 together,
that it's his way of getting me to put up with him longer/more.
I have no doubt that I'll survive without him. Nor do I doubt that
Jonathan will do fine. We have our own little family - me and my 3
boys, and we're "alone" most of the time, and do fine with that. I
suppose I would miss the friendship, but it's not an earth-shattering
thing. My heart would break for Jonathan. That his father wouldn't
pull himself together, for his sake.
No he's not very interactive with him when he's around. I keep
brushing that aside, not meaning to. And already, Jonathan quite
obviously trusts me a million times more than his dad. When he's tired
or sick or hurt, he wants nothing to do with his father, and just wants
Mom or his brothers. I do feel sad for the kids .... if this
relationship fails, then there will be 3 kids, that are half-siblings,
that will most likely never see each other again. His ex is too
violent and threatening (and she hates my guts) to ever work out
anything between her and I. And there's no other "connection" between
the 2 families that might facilitate these kids knowing each other.
Jonathan doesn't just lose his dad - he loses half of his heritage.
HOW do you deal with that, when the kid wants/needs to know something
about his ancestors?? I do feel like this is my responsibility. If
for no other reason than that his father refuses to be responsible
about it.
If he wanted nothing to do with me, fine. But how can a person turn
their back on their own flesh and blood?? Or do I just hope it's an
empty threat ...?
It's hard.
|
| 113.9 | | ASABET::pelkey.ogo.dec.com::pelkey | professional hombre | Tue Mar 05 1996 13:35 | 84 |
| <Has anyone been successful at helping someone else
<"up" when they're at rock bottom?? Am I "too close"
<to the situation to be ABLE to help??
Yea, I think so, but you can't carry them up the ladder.
and obviously you can't make soemone do all the things
you think they need to do, Only they can do that.
Harping on it makes you the 'bad guy',,
<So, guys especially, if you heard someone make that
<sort of "speech", or you yourself made it, what would
<be the most effective response??
Poor Bill,,, life is such a drag... Bill ought
to walk in my brotherin laws shoes for day.
He's 33 years old, and has what appears to be inoperable
cancer, it could kill him before he's 40.. So
lets have "Bill" ask Jim what problems really are...
Anyway, what do I think about Bills side of the story ?
That "Bill" is simply not ready to take any responsibilities
for anything that's going on in his life.. See this is
when it becomes really easy to blame anything, on anyone
absolve yourself from being your own worse enemy. This
is how my son is, he's 16, hopefully we can fix this.
IMHO: A person always has infinite control, as a man, or
as a women, over their life, over things in a relationship,
over how successfull their job is..
Funny thing about control..,
Isn't control usually given to the one who steps
up and takes it ? To me, ( and this may sound stupid
but) the problem isn't who has control as much as who wants
(or needs control, or to be controlled).... am I digressing ????
So getting inside a guys head, (Probably easier when you're a guy)
Bills seems to be the opposite of a control freak.. probably
likes it most when folks make decisions for him. again,
this is great cuz it always gives you an out... "Not my fault,
... woe is me.."
At some point you just gotta say, "hey, this is MY problem,
this is MY thing to fix." First step to getting whole again..
In my experience with my son, we're trying to get him to
that point... This is hard.
<I'm just *REALLY* struggling with giving up on this
<guy. There's still a lot of love there.... it's just the
<"like" is gone for now ....
So many of us never separate the two.... This is good on your
part.. It'll help you keep some things clear. We learned
this lesson with our son... Loved him, and at the same time,
couldn't stand to look at him,, (still, we refuse to
give up on him..)
<me writing it in here, has more or less made it
<"public" information, and I'm asking for your opinions ....
yea, but I still feel weird vocing my opion.
I think: if you really want my advice,,,,
this is where the girl tells the guy "Look there's a lot
of stuff going on in both our heads right now,, I don't
know about you, but I gotta put some distance between
us and this problem... You got some stuff to work
out, I got some stuff to work out..."
Time is an awesome healer.. It runs it's course, and mends
all sorts of things... We're an impatient society, usually
somethings a phone call, or a drive to the mall away.
This stuff just don't work that way...
Peace to you Patty, and Peace to Bill,,, you both need
some...
regards;
/ray
|
| 113.10 | | ASABET::pelkey.ogo.dec.com::pelkey | professional hombre | Tue Mar 05 1996 13:43 | 26 |
| <If he wanted nothing to do with me, fine. But
<how can a person turn their back on their own
<flesh and blood?? Or do I just hope it's an
<empty threat ...?
ya just wouldn't believe if, even if it was in black
and white, right infront of you...
My buddy works on a local Police Department.
When someone asked him at a cook out, last
summer, "So Franky, what's a bad day for a cop"
he says
"When you responsd to a call, and
someone brings you to a trash bag that has
an infant in it."
IS there a problem in this civilization for 'Respect
for life ?' I'd say yea, there is...
/r
|
| 113.11 | stop worrying about him | ASDG::CALL | | Wed Mar 06 1996 09:46 | 34 |
| You aren't going to be able to 'fix' him. You can't carry
the whole burden yourself. You can't help someone that doesn't want
to be helped. Perhaps you're learning a life lesson here. The
major suggestion I can give is to get yourself into couseling. A
counselor will help you through this tough situation. I can agree with
the previous note..his perceptions...it's not life or death. Your son
will survive with or without his father. If he doesn't want to make it
work it's not going to work. If one person is 'in' and the other person
is 'out' then you're 'both' 'out'. Stay where you are for the time
being. Put the move on hold unless there are other circumstances that
make it impossible to stay. Focus in on taking care of you and your
children. Forget about him...let him decide what he wants...then if he
does or he doesn't move on from there. Sounds like lots of problems
with his first relationship haven't been resolved. He may not be able
to rebuild a life unless he resolves those issues. Kind of puts you in
a bad position. I would never even begin to date someone who is just
getting divorced..for just this reason.
Do you know why his first wife divorce him? You have to remember that
his problems with her are 'not' your problems..you seem to have taken
his problems personaly. You need to solve 'your' own problems. Like
you've got 3 children with two different fathers. No successful
relationship. You need to get yourself to be healthy first before you
can have a healthy relationship with anyone else. There are many things
that you can do to get yourself into a healthy state. Stop worrying
about him and do the work on yourself. The only person that is going to
put you into a happy state and have a happy life is 'you'. You're the
only one that can do it for 'you'. I suggest that you get on track and
start asking yourself the personal questions and start working on you.
I speak from personal experience...this journey begins with the first
step. Good luck to you and may you have a happy life.
What do 'you' really want? How do 'you' want life to be...
|
| 113.12 | | SCAMP::MINICHINO | | Wed Mar 06 1996 14:05 | 11 |
| Patty,
Good luck, I think you know what the right decision is, you need to
have someone validate it. Well, you need to do the healthy thing. What
makes YOU feel good about YOU.
You have to be a bit on the self concerned side. These are difficult
times and you need to be strong from within. You son will benefit from
a strong mother.
|
| 113.13 | | OOYES::WEIER | Patty, DTN 381-0877 | Wed Mar 06 1996 14:52 | 64 |
|
>You aren't going to be able to 'fix' him. You can't carry
>the whole burden yourself. You can't help someone that doesn't want
>to be helped. Perhaps you're learning a life lesson here. The
Oh, I agree that I can't fix HIM. I don't want to fix him. I do want
him to fix himself, and I do think that he wants that too, at least on
some level. But is there anything that *I* can do to help this??
>Stay where you are for the time
>being. Put the move on hold unless there are other circumstances that
I moved about a month 1/2 ago. He's moving out of his parent's, into
his own apt. in a couple of weeks. It just seemed that maybe HIS move
would be a "cleaner" time to break things off.
>Do you know why his first wife divorce him? You have to remember that
>his problems with her are 'not' your problems..you seem to have taken
>his problems personaly.
Well, actually he divorced her. In large part because of me, and our
relationship. Also in part because of what a cruddy marriage he had,
but keep in mind that it's simpler to say he did it ALL for me. And
sometimes he'll add that it was a mistake.
>>You need to solve 'your' own problems. Like you've got 3 children with
>>two different fathers.
I don't really see that as a "problem" per se. My kids are first and
foremost, and always have been. Am I missing something here??
>No successful relationship. You need to get yourself to be healthy
>first before you can have a healthy relationship with anyone else.
I *THINK* that I am healthy. I have my own life, and do my own thing,
pretty much independent of what "Bill" wants to do. I used to try to
live my life around him or "us", but that only ever left me
disappointed.
If this relationship doesn't working out, I have no interest at ALL in
trying in another one, at least for quite some time. Having a
relationship or not isn't a life or death thing to me.
I have my family (my 3 kids and me), and we do things as a family. If
"Bill" or some other man wanted to participate in that with us, and it
worked out, then great. If it didn't, oh well. I'm not about to set
my life "on hold", or detract from my kids, because someone else wants
me to be/do something different. This is actually an area of great
distress for Bill. He hates that I can "have" and "do" my own thing,
regardless of whatever behaviour he might be trying out.
I am pretty happy. No, this relationship is not the most fulfilling,
but it's also not destructive anymore either. It's more like a
"nagging" voice saying "I really should do something about this", in
the back of my head. Certainly not something I weep or lose sleep
over.
In my previous reply was the "What do I want" and "How do I want life
to be" answers .... I guess I trip up the most, because I'm *NOT*
convinced that I can't have that with Bill.
Okay .... I guess you need to hit me with a bigger 2x4 (-;
-Patty
|
| 113.14 | | SMURF::MSCANLON | a ferret on the barco-lounger | Thu Mar 07 1996 11:00 | 45 |
| re: .13
Gosh I feel for you. Except for the part about having the
child together, you've been living my life, and God knows my
life is driving *me* crazy :-)
Sometimes, people need to feel needed. You're self-sufficient.
You handle it all, the house, the boys, the bills. If Bill
has low self-esteem, he may feel he has no place in your life.
That there's nothing special he can bring to the relationship.
If you're at all like me, you are proud of your ability to be
strong and take care of everything. And Bill, like my SO,
probably thinks, "Well fine, if she can do it all, what does
she need me for?" I know this sounds weird, but instead of
telling him about negative things (like losing weight, bowing
to the ex, etc) trying mentioning only the positive things
(like, "Thanks for spending time with our son. He likes to
play with you." or "I think it's really great your getting
out on your own and getting your own place.") Sometimes it's
so easy to get frustrated with someone you care about that you
fixate on the problems and forget the things that brought you
both together to begin with. I know with us the ex and his
kids have been a wedge since day 1, and only now, 5 years
later are things starting to mellow out, and I still have a
lot of hurt and anger I can't just set aside. I don't have
any kids of my own, I can only imagine it must be like mixing
oil and water, God bless you for taking it on.
I think he may keep coming back to you because he's afraid of
being alone. If he's alone, he has to face himself and take care
of himself, and he may not like the glimses of himself he's seen.
You are safe and you always take him back. In this way, he doesn't have
to move forward. You can't make someone change. They have to
want to. All you can really do is a.) adapt and stick it out, or
b.) cut your loses and leave. Either one of these choices may
cause your partner to change, or they may not. I would encourage
you to figure out what your really want from him, and I would
also encourage you not to react if he hits your hot buttons.
You give him a sense of power when he is successful, but it
is not the kind of power you want to base the relationship on.
Good luck, and I hope this helps somewhat,
Mary-Michael
|
| 113.15 | | TLE::PHILLIPS | | Fri Mar 08 1996 09:18 | 8 |
|
To make a relationship work, both people need to be concerned and try
to help the other in bad times. A good friendf of mine was in a
relationship where all the other person worried about was herself.
She was very self centered and an emotional block hole. It was very
painful to realize this was an emotional one way street ... and to do
the right thing. After a difficult period of time, he was very happy
that it was over.
|
| 113.16 | | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Your mind is in here and mine is also | Wed Mar 13 1996 10:43 | 80 |
|
Patty,
Amazing, thoughout all the replies no one mentioned the word
"grief". I think Bill displays a classic response to his not having
_grieved_ the loss of his former marriage.
Regardless of how awful it was, there was something to it and
that something was let go of and lost, when the divorce was finalized.
It's clear that he's been clinging to it, by the "pleasing" behavior
he's done with his ex.
Weight gain can be a symptom of anger - or sorrow - turned inward
upon ones self. There are many people in OA who could testify that,
for them, a gallon of ice cream is a good, albeit temporary, cure for
the blues.
The lack of self-interest can also be a symptom of sorrow turned
inward.
This man needs to be shown that's it's alright to cry, IMHO. I
do not think that "once a month" therapy is going to get him any closer
to that. You could easily skirt around that one going once a week, let
alone once a month...believe me, I know.
His "absolute word" behavior toward the children is consistant with
his emotional dysfunction, IMHO. People who cannot tolerate feelings,
either their own or those of others, may employ the "last word" tactic:
"That's it! I dont want to hear it! I_HAVE_SPOKEN". That way, they can
smugly avoid discussion, which can pull up a myriad of feelings about
whatever it is that's going on, whioch would have to be _dealt with_.
People have said to take a look at yourself. It's actually good
advice, because how Bill is (in this way) says as much about you. Not
that you're this way too, but in that there's something to his being
this way that delineates something in you. My favorite question to ask
someone, with this in mind, is "Who were the significant other people
in your life that...just couldnt quite get themselves to feel sorrow
around their losses?"
If you said "My father", I would reply "BINGO!".
The best course, IMHO, for you and your children would be to
not move in with Bill. Instead, get into therapy to address whatever it
is in you, that attracts you to men who have such difficulties with
feelings. I see quite an impact on your life, due to this "abberation".
Whatever it is, it's powerful enough to bring you to the point where
you'd have his baby - and then find yourself in a large mess, that you'd
really prefer not to be in at this point in your life.
To be fair, many a man has sired children with a woman who had
particular and specific emotional difficulties - and then found
himself in a large mess, that he'd really prefer not to be in. So it's
not you, not women per se; it's a potential for anyone.
The advice that having a loving relationship for your children to
model in their future, is absolutely best. Houses, cars, money, land,
things, clothes and that stuff either dont mean anything, or mean too
much to children who are in a family where two partners are not in a
particularly healthy loving relationship. To take care of yourself -
and allow Bill to go on his own way - is a step toward creating that
environment. Bill will be alright, there's nothing you can do to change
him, but there's everything you can do to change yourself and what the
future holds for you and the kids.
Emotionally healthy people ordinarily meet other emotionally healthy
people, with whom they can create a healthy loving relationship. Anyone's
best bet toward this end is to be as emotionally healthy as they can
be. It takes...some work and often that kind of work is distasteful.
However, if you've been born and live life, chances are that (in this
society) you've got some things to work on. Everyone does. But not
everyone can see how their current predicament often delineates just
what they need to work on, so they _can_ move forward. Instead of go
around in circles.
Hope this helps!
Joe
|
| 113.17 | | OOYES::WEIER | Patty, DTN 381-0877 | Wed Mar 13 1996 14:15 | 61 |
|
.... Well ....
I finally got up the courage, and put my foot down. Enough's enough.
And NOW he seems to be truly willing to look at some things that he
might need to "fix" in himself.
That's all well and good .... but I'm quite concerned that if I were to
say anything to the effect of "That's GREAT!! Okay, we'll work on
things while you're working on this stuff", that his "stuff" will get
shuffled to the back again. That the "panic" or immediate "crisis"
will be set aside, and he won't figure out the stuff he needs.
My father's not a very emotional man - but he IS very sensitive to
other people's feelings (something that Bill's not) .... maybe that's
part of it. My mother's at the exact opposite of that spectrum. Very
emotional, and doesn't seem to care about anyone's feelings. Hmmm - no
wonder they split up!
What brings ME to Bill?? Or to men like him .... well, I don't *THINK*
that this is how he always was. And maybe, as Joe says, it's the
"grief" that he hasn't gone through. I've told him this, and his
counselor has actually managed to pick up on that (at least the 1st one
did - not positive about this one) - that he needs to get over his
marriage before he's going to "get on" anywhere else.
But anyway, he USED TO BE very open with his feelings, and I THINK that
he used to know what he wanted and where he was going etc etc. But
it's been so long, it's hard to know if that's an accurate memory or
not.
One of the other issues we have, is that he's never clear about what HE
wants/expects, and isn't verbal about that. I honestly wonder if he
KNOWS anymore. But either way, since there are no "rules" (or
understood expectations), no matter WHAT I do, it can be the wrong
thing on any given day. It's like playing a game, with very strict
rules. Except no one will tell you what the rules ARE. AND the rules
change every day or so. I'm tired of being in a game I can only lose.
SOOOOOOOOooooo, where we are now .... he owes me a support check for
Jonathan. He's trying to THINK ABOUT and WRITE DOWN exactly what he
wants and expects from life. And if that includes a relationship, what
he wants/needs and expects from that. At least from there, I'LL be
able to decide if that would ever suit my needs. And again I can
reiterate my wants/needs to him. If the two don't mesh, then it's all
over, and life goes on.
If they DO mesh .... that's the hard part - to keep the "panic" up
long enough that he will realize that this is something that he MUST do
- at the very least for himself. It feels like the only way he'll
accept the seriousness of it all, is if I break off all contact with
him.
But, gee, if I did THAT, and he worked these things out .... I'd regret
it later.
So, all you wise folks .... what's the magic answer?? (-:
THANKS!!!!!!!!
Patty
|
| 113.18 | | TARKIN::BREWER | | Wed Mar 13 1996 14:59 | 30 |
|
But..maybe you won't regret it later. If you truly
move on. Do what you need to do for you..perhaps
you will not only not regret it..prehaps you will be in such a
different place with yourself that what he is doing won't
matter to you at all ?
I have tried to "help" some of my previous partners..tell them stuff
about themselves. Ask, cajole, demand that they get help
for "their" stuff. And broke off relationships thinking..now they're
going to get help and become the person that I wished they
had been WITH ME....but they won't be with me. ..they'll be with
someone else and I'll be so mad/sad..whatever.
But..it didn't work that way. For one thing..I really did move on.
I stayed with my own councelor and my own life and worked on
my own "wht do I really want" lists..and found out that I stopped
working on other people's potential to be what I wanted them to be.
I really don't care a whole lot what most of these people went off
and did or became later on. If they're happy..that's nice for them..
If they're not..that's their problem.
I know that I am happy with my life..with me ..with my partner..
and..if I hadn't moved on from the manipulative (on both sides)
relationships in my past..I would not have what I
have now.
good luck with whatever choice you make..
db
|
| 113.19 | | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Your mind is in here and mine is also | Thu Mar 14 1996 12:29 | 28 |
|
Hi Patty,
You've described a couple of things...that to me, is no way to have
to live.
One, is the "strict rules with serious consequences - but the rules
arent quite defined and BTW, they change on a daily basis". TOTALLY
crazy making - no one, under any circumstances, should have to live
under such a regime. Definitely in the "reject button" category.
The other, is the "keeping up the panic" part. Again, TOTALLY
debilitating; no one, no matter who they are, is 'worth' that kind of
energy expenditure on the part of another person, for them to just be
manageable. I mean, people do it all the time, but it's NUTS. That's
why they have CODA and AL-ANON.
Another person, as a partner, should be able to at least maintain
themselves - without the spouse having to light and keep fires burning
under them constantly. If they cannot do this, then they have a problem
which is trully theirs.
If you continued with your split, he'd catch his breath eventually
- and you'd get a chance, perhaps for the first time in X years, to
catch yours. Sounds peaceful, doesnt it? If it sounds too quiet, maybe
there's something in that to look into with yourself.
Joe
|
| 113.20 | | OOYES::WEIER | Patty, DTN 381-0877 | Wed Mar 20 1996 16:53 | 24 |
|
A little update .... though anything's WAY too soon to tell, there has
been a little progress ....
Last week I told him to hit the road, which of course sent him
IMMEDIATELY down the road of self-improvement. He's taking the time to
LISTEN to what I say a little more, and to try to understand that what
might seem like a little thing to him, might be a big thing to me, and
vice versa.
One of the issues that was hot at the moment was trust and honesty -
and it's the one that we've made the most progress on (well, on
eliminating the 'dishonest' or not 'trustworthy' actions anyway). AND
he's started working out and dieting. It'll be interesting to see
what, if any of this, lasts.
No, it's still not perfect, by a long shot .... but what if it's 3
steps backwards, and 4 steps forward ??? Give it a little more time, I
guess. Not like I'd be doing much different without him, anyway.
Thanks for the support!
Patty
|
| 113.21 | | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Your mind is in here and mine is also | Thu Mar 21 1996 13:16 | 25 |
|
Patty,
>but what if it's 3 steps backwards, and 4 steps forward ???
Sometimes, things are like that. As long as you're gaining ground
over time, that's what counts.
>Not like I'd be doing much different without him, anyway.
Sure you would. Without him, you could be open to any possibility.
With him, you're waiting with interest to see what of and if any of this
new behavior lasts. My hunch is that it wont, unless you make another
gesture toward ending things with him.
That's because when someone "hops to it" right after a threat,
sometimes they're doing it "for" or "to keep" the other person, rather
than doing it for themselves, in themselves, of themselves.
Guess which way true change is most likely to happen? When people
change for themselves and the motivation is entirely self-generated.
Exceptions do occur, but they are rare.
Joe
|
| 113.22 | | MKOTS3::DIONNE | | Fri Apr 05 1996 16:59 | 24 |
| >make sure that everyone else is happy, and no one cares if I'M happy or
> not {that's just his perception, and not at all true}. I don't
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Not to be unkind, but this really stuck out to me, as being completely
invalidating of his feelings. His perception is *very* very* important
here, and certainly has a very large impact on his behavior.
If you want to understand why he does the things he does, listen
without judgement.
I also question why you feel you have any right to decide how good of a
father he is, or will be to your son Jonathan, and you seem to take
that a step further trying to decide if you should promote his seeing
the child. Seems more self-serving than anything. Invariably whenever
I see people who do this, then never have anything good to say about
the relationship or the other person. Leave Bill and Jonathan to work
out their relationship their own way. It will either thrive or die on
it's own, and you'll never have to answer for any interference or
impact. Most children will forgive a great deal of their parents
faults and mistakes, don't you want to nuture that?
|
| 113.23 | | OOYES::WEIER | Patty, DTN 381-0877 | Mon Apr 15 1996 15:43 | 106 |
| >>make sure that everyone else is happy, and no one cares if I'M happy or
>> not {that's just his perception, and not at all true}. I don't
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Not to be unkind, but this really stuck out to me, as being completely
>invalidating of his feelings. His perception is *very* very* important
>here, and certainly has a very large impact on his behavior.
I fully understand that his perception is important. What I MEANT is
that people *DO* care a *lot* about what happens to him, and if he's
happy or not. If he's asked why he thinks we don't care or what cold
thing we may have done, he can offer nothing as an example. He'll just
mutter something like "What's the point?!". If I point out things that
I've done that are caring, he'll twist it around and say something like
"Well, you only did that for yourself so that x-y-z".
To the point that I wonder if it's somehow EASIER for him to accept
life, if no one cared about him. If that's easier, than it's easier to
feel/believe that.
As Jonathan's mother, I do have a "right" to assess what type of a
father, he is to my son. The same as any parent has the "right" to
assess another parent's abilities. That's what custody is all about.
FACT: If I break up with Bill, Bill will cease to exist in Jonathan's
life.
FACT: If I STAY with Bill, Jonathan will continue to at least KNOW his
father.
FACT: In deciding what becomes of the relationship, since Jonathan is a
direct result of the relationship, the decision can be swayed by him -
it most definitely impacts him.
I'm not sure how you think that a man being involved with his son or
not, is self-serving to me. For *ME* it'd be simplest if Bill was run
over by a bus. Then I wouldn't have to worry about him stepping back
into my life, or disrupting Jonathan's life.
For JONATHAN, it'd be best if Bill would shape up and start acting
like a responsible, loving, devoted father.
But that's about as likely as the bus.
It seems that it's easier to explain why Mom and Dad argue, then it is
to explain why Dad never bothers with him.
To complicate matters now, Bill has taken his new apt, and has decided
to join the Fire Dept again. He's been pretty clear that he doesn't
have time to spend with us, and to not expect it. He is complaining
that he already can't participate with the F.D. 1/2 of his w/ends,
since that's when he has his other 2 kids. And so step by step, we're
worked out of his life (which isn't any great loss). Point being, that
this is just one more reason why he won't have the time/energy to ever
bother with his "other" son. And I'm sorry - and maybe this is what
you see as self-serving ... but it hurts me to sit and see the pain
that someone is going to inflict on my child. As any parent knows, if
there's a chance for a kid to blame themselves for something, they'll
take that chance. Jonathan doesn't deserve to blame himself because
his father is too immature to rise to the occassion and act like a dad.
And maybe I'm looking for it now, but Easter came and went ... he got
cards for all 3 kids this time. Amanda's and Greg's said what great
kids they were, and how very very much he loves them etc etc.
Jonathan's said "To a cute boy!" and something about the Easter Bunny
being good to him. If you saw them you'd understand how DRASTICALLY
different they were.
And those are the kinds of things that a kid probably won't miss. You
want me to nurture forgiveness in my son, for a man that I have NO
respsect for as a father?? A CHILD should not have to forgive their
parents of neglect. No, I would not want to teach my child to
constantly forgive someone who treats them bad - hell, that's why it's
so damn hard for ME to walk away from this relationship!! Miss
Forgiving, and what's it gotten me?!? What I hope to nurture in my
children is that they're good people, sweet kids, and that they deserve
only the best. Sometimes they'll be forced to settle for less, but
it's not what they DESERVE. And that they CERTAINLY don't deserve to
have their feelings jerked around by anyone - especially by their own
father.
Bill's already made his decisions about his relationships with his
children. Bill comes first, and whatever's left goes to the kids. My
involvement is pretty much limited to picking up the pieces.
Would you prefer that I make my decisions without even considering the
impact on Jonathan?? Because that's certainly what it sounds like....
and he's much to important to me to just brush him aside like that.
Hell, it's HIS life more than anyones. *I* can find another boyfriend
if that's what I wanted. Bill could find another girlfriend/wife.
Jonathan will never have another father. The best I can do is hope to
meet a man who will treat him as his child, but the day will still come
when Jonathan will want to know about his real father, and what was so
wrong with Jonathan, that he wanted nothing to do with him?! HOW do I
explain that?? Because it sure won't be Bill doing the explaining, now
will it??
Sorry if I got a little p.o.'ed here. Just coming off of another w/end
with my "scum-of-the-earth" kids and his "Angel" kids .... these
Mondays aren't good.
Anyone want to call him and tell him to just forget I'm alive??
Please???
Thanks!
Patty
|
| 113.24 | | 43GMC::KEITH | Dr. Deuce | Wed May 08 1996 07:48 | 13 |
| Patty:
Your comment at the end about having to explain to him about his
(Jonathan) father made me think. If he was enjoyed, nurtured, and loved
by a step dad who was in a warm and caring relationship with you,
wouldn't it be somewhat easier to explain to him (kindly) that his bio
father had a problem that he could not overcome and was forced to live
away from you two? This is though, but you cannot change Bill. You must
also think about how this emotional rollercoaster is affecting you
other two sons too. They deserve a happy mom.
Take care
Steve
|
| 113.25 | | CHEFS::HOPE_T | | Fri Aug 23 1996 07:21 | 21 |
|
IMHO
Being a father is so much more than being the person who's sperm
entered an egg. I am adopted my adopted father is my father, the man
who's genes I carry is a stranger.
My second child has no father the man who happened to be there at her
conception was coindental, The people who love her and care for her are
the people who matter to her.
Being a father is something that has to be deserved if it is not
deserved that person is not a father and should have no right to the
honour of being classed as a father.
Your child is better of with one loveing parent than two with one
undoing all the wonderful work the other has done.
Sorry if that sounds hard.
T
|