Conference quark::human_relations

I did.  I found it very enlightening.
I highly recommend it (for whatever that's worth!)

- Deb B.

    This book is an excellent book in understanding how very different
    both women and men actually are - both in the ways that we think
    and in the ways that we behave.  After reading this book it definately
    broadened my way of thinking and helped me understand issues that we
    face daily in dealing with ourselves and members of the opposite sex.
    
    I would highly recommend this book to anyone - well worth it !!!
    
    

Actually I listened to the tape.

I don't like his theories that much.

There are some interesting points and it does clearly outline some typical
character flaws but rather than talking about ways of correcting the flaws it
tends to put the burden on the partner to tread carefully around those flaws.

I saw John Grey on an infomercial the other day - he has a whole industry
around this concept. There was even a section of Mars/Venus valentine cards in
the store. So judging from the money in this many people must be very happy
with his approach.

    It is just another commercial and superficial book made for people who
    still believe in hell and heaven....
    
    

Wow!  Those are interesting viewpoints!

I didn't perceive his depictions as outlining
"character flaws".  Instead, I saw him describing
some typical gender differences which may or may not
exist in your particular relationship(s), and I heard
him offering some concrete ways to bridge the differences.

- Deb B.

	Re. -1 

	Like what differences ? And, how to fix 'em ?

	Chuck

Oh let's see...

One gender difference is in the way we respond to problems.
Typically, a woman will talk it out.  She will seek out
others with whom to discuss it, hash it over, analyze it, etc.
She is *NOT* looking for someone to solve the problem; she's
looking to vent her feelings and discover different perspectives
on the problem.  A man will typically withdraw into himself.
He doesn't want to discuss it - he wants to fix it and he wants
to fix it by himself.  And he doesn't want to be bothered while 
he's working on it.  I think Gray referred to it as "retreating into his cave".

When a woman attempts to talk out her problem with a man,
oftentimes the man will propose a solution as soon as he
feels he understands the problem.  The woman feels frustrated because
he doesn't want to listen to her vent anymore.  The man feels 
frustrated because the woman doesn't accept his solution.

When a man attempts to retreat into his cave to solve a problem,
a woman will often sense the withdrawal and try to draw him
out figuring that he has a problem that he needs to discuss.
But he doesn't need to discuss it -- that's not the way he
solves problems.  Both feel frustrated.

Gray does not discuss how to "fix" these behaviors.  His
viewpoint (as I understand it) is that these are perfectly
valid behaviors -- they're just different.  And if a person
wants to withdraw into their cave to solve their own problem,
then their mate should give them the support that they need.
If a person needs to discuss a problem, then their mate should
lend them an ear.

If you want more, read the book!

- Deb B.

Quite a coincidence, I just picked up the book over the weekend.

I'm only a 1/3 thru the book. I think he makes some good points. I think
the book can help a couple that has some misunderstandings, but basically
want to stay together. I think some of the signals when present in a new
relationship can be a warning sign rather than simple misunderstandings.
I was married once quite a while ago. I think we did misunderstand each
other and that certainly contributed to our breakup.

I've also been in relationships since where I wish I picked up on the
"problem" signals much sooner and got out sooner. When someone isn't happy
in a situation, almost nothing you do is right.

So, I think the book is worth it ... if it can help clear up misunderstandings
in an otherwise healthy relationship.


-Rich

>One gender difference is in the way we respond to problems.
>Typically, a woman will talk it out.  She will seek out
>others with whom to discuss it, hash it over, analyze it, etc.
>She is *NOT* looking for someone to solve the problem; she's
>looking to vent her feelings and discover different perspectives
>on the problem.  A man will typically withdraw into himself.
>He doesn't want to discuss it - he wants to fix it and he wants
>to fix it by himself.  And he doesn't want to be bothered while 
>he's working on it.  I think Gray referred to it as "retreating into his cave".


    	An ex-girlfriend of mine told me about this book and this example.
    It actually *did* smooth some things out between us for us to
    understand the other's viewpoint.  Although for me, I seem to have a
    modified style -- I always look for someone to talk out a problem with,
    but I've learned to recognize the kinds of problems I can solve and
    those that are just "that's life".  I do look for a solution if I think
    one exists.


    	It always did bug me that women will vent and vent and then do
    nothing to change the situation.  Finding out she may not *want* to
    solve it was quite a revelation.  And the good thing is it no longer
    bugs me so much.


    	Nice writeup, Deb.  Thanks!


    Brian

    re: .7
    
    	The entire book is about COMMUNICATION between males and females.
    	I found myself saying, yeh, that's right, throughout most of the 
    	book. All too often, men don't listen and just be there, they do 
    	want to "fix" everything, and on the other hand, when women want
    	to just be listened to, men feel they are not loved or appreciated.
    
    	Both parties in the relationship should read this book together.
    	It's a great conversation piece.  

    IMO, it's a good book if you don't have access to Deborah Tannen's 
    books, especially _You_Just_Don't_Understand_.  I think _Mars...Venus_
    is condescending (he repeats himself, in centered, italic type, 
    apparently because he thinks his Gentle Readers are morons whose 
    attention must be gained with a 2x4 about the head and shoulders).
    I like some of his imagery (the cave), but the Martian/Venusian thing
    gets old real fast.
    
    Tannen is a much better writer IMO; she cuts right to the chase, is
    witty without being precious and values diversity without being
    smarmily "PC".  I believe she was the first to point out that (most)
    women want to *talk* about a problem (and resent anyone rushing in
    to "fix" it for her), while (most) men see no point in talking about
    a problem, especially if they're not being asked to *solve* it (they
    feel you're wasting their time; why "ask" them if you don't want "the
    answer"?).
    
    Leslie