Conference quark::human_relations

    
    This is pretty funny. Being a geek, working with geeks,
    and married to a geek, but also having non-geeky friends,
    I think this is pretty accurate.
    
    The most important thing though is that geeks are 
    normal people with all the human qualities; the major
    difference, IMO, is that geeks are more down to earth,
    ie. they don't play games and they don't pretend to be 
    somebody else.
    
       
    Eva

    
    	I got a chuckle out of that too - Thanks for enetering it Steve!
    
    	Joe

    >...they don't play games 
    
        Sure we do -- MYST, Descent, Where in the World is Carmen San Diego...
    
    >...and they don't pretend to be somebody else.
    
        Not true:  Klingons, Ferengis, Starfleet officers, wizards...
        

So what's the difference between these:

	geek

	nerd

	dweeb

(or do I reveal my own identity by having asked?)

    This made me crack up laughing , thanks!!!
    
    It is so truthful. One thing about geeks, they dont worship themselves
    in the mirror, they are not hung up on themselves, they dont play head
    games (computer games yes!) and they are genually nice once you stop
    making them blush when you are talking to them!!!
    
    

    I always thought that UNIX was the revenge of the nerds...

    From:	US2RMC::"[email protected]" "Donald E. Eastlake 3rd"
    Subj:	FWD: A Girl's Guide to Geek Guys
    To:	[email protected], [email protected]
    
    [I've contacted Mikki Halpin <[email protected]> (Victoria Maat is
    not currently on the net) and gotten explicit approval to forward
    this article. It appeared in BUNNYHOP 5, a publication that asserts at
    least a collective copyright on the arrangement of its contents,
    published by BUNNYHOP Communications, PO Box 421073, San Francisco, CA
    94142, tel. 415-837-0964, email: [email protected].  (WAFFLE was the
    former name of BUNNYHOP.]
    
    [I don't mind deleting intermediate headers but I think it is evil to
    delete the first one or two.  It's important to know who/when/where
    something was first started and I try to make it a practice not to
    forward anything where this information has been lost.  In this case I
    can verify the accuracy of the copy of the article and have an
    independent pointer to the article authors.]
    

    
     I know the opening entry in this thread was meant to be funny,
    but I can't help but realize that it is in fact a sad commentary
     on our present day social evolution.
    
     I work with computers by day, but have absolutely no interest
    in this stuff once I leave the office. There is more to life, dudes.
    
     I keep thinking of the result of all these so-called geeks,
    which appear to be ever-increasing, and the narrowmindedness
    that evolves from hacking away or cruising the Internet for
    hours on end.
    
     Hate to say it, but I am exposed to this type of geek all day here
    in my work environment, and if you aren't up on the latest chip
     or computer game or whatever bogus overrated software of the day that
    is exhaustively marketed, you tend to be snubbed.
     Yet, try to talk to these same people about other facets of life
     and expect to get the "duh, what's that got to do with computers"
     look.
    
     You sort of triggered a raw nerve when you mentioned having to
     be a "trekkie" is a prerequisite to being in this "geek"
     sub-culture.
     I know this only too well, and unbelievably I have absolutely nor
     have I ever been interested in any " Star Trek" movies, shows,
     or discussions.
     
     Let's not promote this"geeky" lifestyle, but call it what it is.
     A way for people to avoid socializing except via an electronic
     forum.
     How in the world are these "geeks" to develop any social skills
     or even know how to make small talk in person, when all
     they seem to do is hide behind their monitors and become
     "super-geek".
    
     Enough for today.................
    
    

    They have two new products:
    
    GeekAway and GeekOFF for cleaning up your computer.
    
    I too have no interest in Startrek. From my own experiences growing up,
    many girls/women choose the rebels, the semi-hoods, and overlooked the
    maybe shy semi-geeks. What they got in many cases was someone who was
    self-centered and who abused them. Sadly, many of them kept choosing
    the same types over and over again...
    
    Steve

Clearly there are many variations in "geek-hood" - I took the article to be
an attempt at humor rather than a scholarly investigation of a social
subculture.  Also, I think the reference to Trekkies applies only to certain
age ranges - perhaps those of the authors.

					Steve

    Ya gotta look at it this way, a lot of geeks were made fun of in high
    school so they never developed good social skills. They were the book
    worms, the nerds. They were the butt of a lot of jokes and cruel
    comments. So as adults when approached to socialize about every
    day matters they freeze up.
    

    Re: .8


    	Whoa!  While I know there are folks who are truly "geeks", I think
    you may be taking your work scenario and generalizing it to encompass
    "the whole world".  Also, it's my belief (and hope) that the vast
    majority of "geeks" are somewhere in the middle and not "super-geeks"
    who have trouble dealing with society at large.


    	I for one have no such troubles as are commonly ascribed to geeks
    (although I was careful not to write "I have no trouble whatsoever" --
    I know of very few who fit this bill).  I love to talk to people, have
    no problems in general striking up conversations, sometimes with
    complete strangers.  My favorite activities are outside and I do all
    kinds of sports and activities including plays/ballet/musicals/etc.
    Clearly many would say I do not fit the description of a "geek".


    	However, I grew up with "Star Trek" and have always loved it.
    Initially I loved it for the science fiction aspect, but later in life
    I have grown to appreciate and respect the fact that Star Trek has been
    a pioneer in addressing tough issues in society as well.  Does liking
    Star Trek make me a geek?


    	And yes, I have a PC at home.  I like to tinker and play with it;
    it's kind of like doing at home what I might do at work if I could
    decide what I want to do.  I've learned a lot with it, and I use it to
    track my finances -- making it a useful "toy".  Does owning a PC make
    me a geek?


    	I can understand that if your coworkers malign you because you're
    not a "geek" that you would have an "axe to grind", but I think it's
    dangerous to say that geeks are not good people -- or to over-
    generalize and say that if someone has some geek attributes then they
    must be super-geeks.  While I would never advise someone to stunt their
    social development, I can think of lots of nastier types of people in
    this world than geeks.


    	I for one read the base note as a funny charicature.  Charicatures
    by definition are *exaggerations* of the truth.  Sure, some folks may
    fit the bill but let's not assume they all do.  Live and let live.  I
    think there's room in this world for geeks, too.  Face it:  if the
    worst kind of person in this world were geeks we'd have a pretty nifty
    world.  Okay, so it might be a bit quieter -- is that such a bad thing?
    ;-)



    Brian

    It is the 'nasty' types that make fun of the geeks,  I have seen it
    happen all the time in high school. And they did not deserve it. Just
    because they were quiet and minded their own business and did their
    school work and liked school,  they were made fun of.  

    
    re. 8
    
    Wait a second here...
    
    I have some issues with labeling geeks as "boring"
    individuals. Maybe geeks are not good at socializing,
    like making small talks and such, but to be honest,
    I personally don't place much importance on small 
    talks, how's the weather, stuff.
    
    There are always exceptions, but most of the people
    I work with and have worked in the last 12 years,
    who fall into the geek category, also have a thrill
    seeking/adventurous side of them. Some like to drive
    fast, some like to ski hard, some like to climb rocks,
    some jump out of airplanes, some scube dive, and most
    of them like to get loaded. Most of them are into 
    music.
    
    Yes, Star Trek, Simpsons... But they are the only
    new network TV programs (non PBS type) besides the news 
    that are worth watching. I can't think of anything else
    that is not intellectually boring to watch. 
    
    Let's face it, geeks have been looked down upon as
    outcast and laughing stocks for a long time. What is
    the problem with accepting people as they are? So,
    they are not the social butterfly, but who needs a
    glitz for a true friend or a partner anyways, IMO,
    of course. Geeks are just too smart, IMO, to fall
    for the social expectation crap!
    
    
    Eva
    

    WRT: .8:
    
    Here's a quarter.  Buy a clue.
    
    If this humorous article gets you so het up, I suggest you take a
    look at youself, rather than ragging the subjects of the article.

    
     Okay, I admit I had it in for geeks yesterday.
    
     But the point I'm trying to make is that it seems that
    peolpe are giving up on other interests and other hobbies
    to devote themselves to this computer generation.
    
     I can't help but see that this is not a good trend. It's
    just too easy to shut the outside world out when hacking,surfing,
     whatever,etc.
    
    Somebody mentioned a lot of these folks do have other outside
    interests, which is great. They have obviously been enlightened
    to the fact that toying with computers should be just one facet
    of life.
    
    I'm referring mostly to the younger generation that are growing up
    " bits 'n bytes" as opposed to classic development. What happened
    to Arts, Culture, Reading, or is it the beginning of the end
     of any non-computer pastime.
    
    
     Then again, I've also given up on TV , which is a whole subject
     in itself.
    
    I guess , having been involved with computers in one way or another
     for many years, I am beginning to be turned off by hi-tech.
     I seem to be appreciating all the lo-tech things in life, 
     realizing that technology is not the solution to everything.
    
    
    BLah, blah, blah.........................
    
    

    
    re .16
    
    
    The younger generation was brought up under
    different circumstances than you were. You
    don't know how they were raised. You can look at 
    them as they are shutting off the outside 
    world, OR I can look at them being shutting 
    off by the outside world, the name calling,
    and all. 
    
    And so what if these people don't want to do
    other things in life? They are not breaking
    the law, they are not harming anyone. They are
    a minority in number in our society. At least, 
    they are HAPPY doing their thing, which is much 
    more than what most people can say about themselves. 
    If one doesn't like them, then leave them alone.
    
    Whatever trend you think you see, I don't see anyone
    eager to join in. I don't see average kids trying
    to act like geeks, I don't see jogs ditching their
    sweats for Microsoft T-shirts. Come on, you can
    say the same thing about anybody devoting their
    energy to one thing, from Nobel Prize winners, to
    stock brokers, to priests, to housewives. Why
    pick on the geeks? 
    
    
    Eva                                     
    

    
    re .-1
    
     Why pick on geeks?????
    
     Isn't that what this Note is all about!!
    
     I still stand by what I said.
    
     Call me prophetic, but I sincerely hope this
     devotion to computers becomes what it should be,
     just a fad.
    
     You are right about people in all walks of life being 
     devoted to their careers could technically be considered
     geeks. It's just that devotion to computers seems so
     unhealthy in my eyes.
    
     I must admit one other item, I do speak from experience.
     I was at one point in my life ~ 8 years ago, bordering
     on geekdom, but quickly realized the downside of it all.
     It did land me a decent career though :-)
    
    
     BLah,blah.......
    

    
    re .18
    
    Sorry, but it is not a fad, IMO.
    
    One can do so much with a multimedia computer and a modem
    nowadays that being "shut off" is not exactly the description. 
    One can download songs, listen to Beethoven or Bach, one can read 
    magazines and books, latest research papers, one watch videos, 
    watch PBS, one can play games over the network, file our taxes, 
    check stock prices, find cookie recipes, find job postings, 
    play VI games, get second physician opinion - sending x-rays
    or images electronically, enables us to spend more time at
    home with our faimlies than commuting and waiting in line,etc. 
    This is our future, whether we like it or not. Let's not
    throw the baby out with the bath water. 
    
    
    
    Eva
     

    	Re -.18
    
    >It's just that devotion to computers seems so unhealthy in my eyes.
    
    	Why? A computer, like any other tool, can be used for healthy as
    well as unhealthy activities. I dont think "devotion to" necessarily
    delineates a state of health or sickness. What if someone is doing a
    very beautiful thing through their computer? 
    
    	It's a cliche'; it's shortsightedness, it's a lack of investigation
    to quickly conclude that, IMHO. 
    
    	However, I will agree that computers are *incredible* time-sinks.
    If you want to burn through a bunch of time - get a computer, try and
    get it to do what you want it to do. Perhaps it is this aspect that seems
    so inordinate; life is what's happening while some of us are busy
    trying to have "just the computer we want".
    
    	Joe
    

    
    re .18
    
    Just to give you another perspective - I worked with this
    guy, who spent 2 1/2 years of his spare time writing a piece 
    of software, which he sold to a company for 1/4 of a million.
    He bought himself a Lexus with cash and is planning to put
    his fiancee thru med school. A couple more projects, he could 
    hang up his keyboard and party for the rest of his life.
    Not a bad hobby, IMO.
    
                                   
    
    Eva 

    I think computers is a great hobby and it is very fascinating.
    They are into their computers and they enjoy what they do. It is a
    hobby to them just like we have certain things that we love to do. I
    feel bad that they are constantly getting picked on and made fun of
    cause they are good people, caring people. It just takes a while for
    them to get out of thier shells and get to know someone to talk to on a
    comfortable level. They never had the chance to socialize when they
    were kids cause they were constantly the brunt of all the 'cool' kids
    jokes but look who got the last laugh in the career world;-)

    
     re: -1
    
      You are making it sound like they have some horrible social
     disease. I never went that far.
    
    
     The reason I posted my original reply was to weed out the 
     geeks, geek-lovers, geek-sympathizers.
    
    
     Job done :-)
    
     So. from what I gather here from the responses is that I am
     in the minority .
     I don't think what anyone says will change my outlook on life at this
    point. I have learned from experience, and all I'm attempting to do
     is disseminate some of my experience with this stuff.
     I agree I might have an antiquated outlook on things, 
     and ironically, I do work for a hi-tech firm.
    
     I live in a hi-tech free environment at home and love it.
     Basically, no television and PC. 
     Ok, I confess, I do have a computerized thermostat and yes, I have
     reprogrammed it on occasion.
    
     Is this geeky??
     Hope not....
    
     One certainly becomes much more creative and appreciative of
     his/her surroundings in this environment.
     
     Try it some time.
    
    
                 

There are many other hobbies which are just as much time sinks - ham radio,
school volunteering, gardening, etc.  The novel thing about computers is how
pervasive they are in our lives and how those who consider themselves
"computer illiterate" look upon the computer literate with misplaced awe or
revulsion (or a mixture of both).  I cringe every time I see a news article
describing a 12-year old who can operate a PC as a "computer whiz".  But
as a society we have become dependent on computers, so it is to these "geeks"
that many have to turn for assistance.

Certainly there are many (men, mostly) who withdraw into computers because
they feel it's the only part of life where they have any semblance of 
control.  This also helps to explain the popularity of computer games.  
Computers are also attractive to those who have had difficulty forming
personal relationships (for whatever reason), and this is perhaps the basis
for the humorous article we're discussing.

				Steve

    > I don't think what anyone says will change my outlook on life at this
    > point. I have learned from experience, and all I'm attempting to do
    > is disseminate some of my experience with this stuff.
    
    No, it seems to me that what you are attempting to do is extend your
    own personal experiences into a general case.
    
    Many people think their prejudices form some sort of natural law;
    these people are wrong.
    					andrew

RE Note 92.24                 A Girl's Guide to Geek Guys                  
QUARK::LIONEL 
    
>Certainly there are many (men, mostly) who withdraw into computers because
>they feel it's the only part of life where they have any semblance of 
>control.  
    
    Quite true. From the book "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus",
    men have their 'cave' which they 'hide' or retreat into.
    
    Steve
    
    

				Steve

    They also feel more comfortable talking to a female over the system
    because they can express the way they feel without falling all over
    there words and getting all embarrassed.
    
    I think the system is a great tool and I met a lot of great freinds
    over the years on the enet :-)
    
    

    
    	Yeah - on a computer you can fix things like there words - oops -
    their words - and do a lot of refinement in your articulations before
    any communication is sent. A definite reality filter, which someone 
    generally uncomfortable in certain situations can make use of.
    
    	Of course, therein lies also the potential for abuse of this aspect.
    In the form of "misrepresentation". Come off as calm, cool, collected.
    When in reality, you're a nervous, antsy, twitchy little bugger! ;')
    
    	Joe

    
    re .23
    
    IMO, living in a low tech enivironment deliberately,
    while the mainstream is going high tech, is a form of 
    isolation. There is nothing unhealthy about it, just
    like there is nothing unhealthy about going high tech
    either, in my eyes. It is a personal choice.
    
    The problem I see here is that, to use an analogy, you
    are riding a donkey to your assembly line job at a GM plant,
    where you install windshields for instance, and the life of you, 
    you can't figure out why anyone would spend time and money on 
    one of those cars. How terrible it is to get sucked into a 
    Corvette or Ferrari! But of course, you have never driven a
    real high tech car! You have never experienced the control
    of a standard shift, you have never felt the rush of wind and
    the warm sun on your face in a convertible,  you have never knew 
    the thrill of going down the highway at 100 mph,  you have never
    understood percision handling! So, you draw your conclusion on
    cars in general from your experience of windshield installation!
    Another analogy is - you are inspecting a huge elephant, you
    can only see the tusks and so you declare that the elephant has
    a white hard shell!
    
    A lot of folks working in high tech firms do not understand high 
    tech itself, they do their job, contributing to one tiny process
    of production, they don't get the big picture and they don't
    understand the industry and its significance. IMO, buy a TV,
    watch NOVA, get Discovery Channel and watch Beyond 2000, read
    Wall Street Journal, you may have a better idea what the rest 
    of the world is doing while you hibernate ;-) 
    
    
    
    Eva
    

    
    re .29
    
     Trust me, I'm not hibernating.
     Far from it.
     Don't forget, I'm the one with a life......
    
     I just don't buy into all the gogo-gaga hype over toying with
    computers. After all they are just tools whivh granted, efficiently
     get the job done. Just whiz bang number crunching boxes that we've
     adapted into toys for personal pleasure.
    
     I understand hi-tech real well and contrary to what you believe,
    am not simply a cog on a much larger wheel. I've worked in
     different aspects of the computer industry and have a
     good understanding  of the goings on of the computer industry.
    
    Sorry if you seem offended by my viewpoint on life and
     my exclusion of computers at a personal level, but I
    am very, very happy with my choice.
    
    We seem to be getting off topic here and into a rathole
     of lifestyles.
    
    
    
    Have a nice weekend !!
    
    
         

    
    re .30
    
    >Trust me, I'm not hibernating.
    >Far from it.
    >Don't forget, I'm the one with a life......
    
    	Don't forget, it's all relative.
    
    >After all they are just tools whivh granted, efficiently
    >get the job done. Just whiz bang number crunching boxes that we've
    >adapted into toys for personal pleasure.
    
    	Same concept applies to cars, boats, muscial instruments,
    literature, gardens, skis (they were high tech miliatry equip
    back then) and everything else under the sun that's 
    man made ;-)
    
    I'm not offended at all, since there isn't nothing to get 
    excited about here. I'd like to offer a different perspective
    and to point out the obvious issues from my point of view.
    I have been an engineer for 13 years and I've never met
    ONE hardware or software design engineer who is not excited 
    about high tech and as I pointed out before that most of them
    have a life. From the description of your experience, it 
    just sounds to me that you haven't really seen what actually 
    goes into the research, design and engineering of computers, 
    in universities, research labs and commerical sectors, that's all. 
    You would probably get the same impression about cars, car buffs 
    and designers if you walk up to a few car geeks in Indy 500 and 
    try to carry on a conversation. They would probably go
    "Duh, you don't know that the 87 MR2 has different size front and
    rear wheel?" or "Duh, you don't know what the Miller-cycle engine is?"
    Or the younger crowd will go "What? You haven't heard of Cold Water 
    Flats? Or Stone Roses?" Something like...
    
    It is not a matter of lifstyle issue, it is a difference of
    opinion as to what computers have to offer in 1995 and beyond.
    
    To each its own...
    
    Eva
    

    I bet the Geek attendance to Windows 95 midnite madness sale was
    outstanding :-)  I bet they were waiting in line like a bunch of teens
    waiting for tickets to a Guns 'n' Roses concert. I wonder if they were
    giving out wristbands at the computer stores.