| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 69.1 | You Matter.... | MKOTS3::LENNON | | Wed Apr 20 1994 14:02 | 12 |
| Since you asked:
YOU need to get professional help RIGHT AWAY. Please take care
of yourself and stop questioning your spouses behavior. Why are you
allowing this to happen????
GO to EAP or GO to the nurse, but do something NOW. This is
unacceptable behavior.
Hugs (I'm sure you need one),
Julia
|
| 69.2 | the truth... | ASDG::CALL | | Wed Apr 20 1994 14:51 | 16 |
| Get out now....
I lived with this and we went to couseling...the only thing I learned
is that once it starts....it only gets worse. One of these times you'll
be finding yourself in the hospital. It might be a broken arm or worse.
The worse is that you could find yourself in the ugh 'morgue'. I'm very
serious about this. Everyday I hear of this happening. Please call
411 and ask for the hotline. They will tell you what your options are.
I would ask for the real truth from the hotlines. They will help you
deal with this. Please do it today.
I used to 'run' from my home in fear. It's been 15 years and I'm still
affected. Don't believe the I'm sorries...it's part of the cycle.
I know this isn't what you want to hear....
|
| 69.3 | Let me echo the previous replies | USCTR1::WOOLNER | Your dinner is in the supermarket | Wed Apr 20 1994 16:16 | 26 |
| .0> Should I leave?
YES. Go while the getting is good.
> We've just built a life together...
But you know what kind of a life that's turning out to be, and you KNOW
you don't want that, right?
> If I end the relationship my spouse has promised to end their life.
Do NOT submit to this emotional blackmail. If you don't end the
relationship, IMO there's a good chance your spouse will end YOUR life.
Your life is the one you (still) have control over; save it. Remember
what you told us:
> I think I know what might happen next time....
Everything I've read and heard about batterers says they're *always*
sorry, they always promise never to do it again, and it always
escalates. Call a hotline, find a temporary safe place to stay--you
can find a permanent place LATER. Just get out.
And let us know how you're doing.
Leslie
|
| 69.4 | :-( | MIMS::ROBINSON_B | | Wed Apr 20 1994 17:27 | 21 |
|
Let me say first of all, It's not your fault in any way. It is your
husband that is wrong. (very wrong) As already stated I know its
not what you want to hear but you need to get out now. Your husband
needs to get some serious help. It will be better if you just leave
without any notice. Dont give him any idea where you will be staying.
You can call him if the need arises.
I can imagine that it will be very hard since you just got married,
but its not your fault since you say he kept all of his problems hidden
from you. Dont think that you might have provoked him. If you are truly
in love with someone, there is nothing that could make you hit them in
anger; nothing.
I'm not saying that there is no hope for your husband, but there is
no reason to subject yourself to his outbursts while he learns to deal
with his anger.
I wish you the best of luck. and lots of hugs too.
Brian
|
| 69.5 | advice | EMASS::RAGUCCI | | Wed Apr 20 1994 21:36 | 5 |
| take all their advice, and leave, for now while you can.
good luck.
BR
|
| 69.6 | Take Charge, draw a line, and enforce it. | SNOC02::HAGARTYD | Mein Leben als Hund | Thu Apr 21 1994 04:47 | 20 |
| Ahhh Gi'day...�
There is nothing to be ashamed of, leaving is not failure, staying is
There are many people out there who know how to deal with this.
DON'T submit to emotional blackmail, find your own strength.
Don't think of what you can lose by going, think of the future gains.
You CAN have a life on your own, you don't need to put up with this
just to have a partner, this IS something else out there...
This behaviour is usually a downwards spiral, there are FEW positive
outcomes possible, and the longer it is left, the more viscous the
negatives become, the harder it is to do something about.
Don't EVER rationalise his behaviour, try not to rationalise yours...
You don't need my advise, but you need strength to take control...
Good luck
Dennis
|
| 69.7 | Go! | NASENG::HEATHER | mist illusion rips away | Thu Apr 21 1994 10:17 | 19 |
| Dear Anon,
You know this - I can hear it in your words - You need to get out
now. I'll echo everything else that has been said. This behavior
will only escalate - he will always be sorry later, and it will just
keep happening again. Find a save place, give no warning and *leave*
now, for your health and safety.
Threatening to kill one's self if another leaves is, as has been
pointed out emotional blackmail - and what he does or does not do if
you leave is his issue, not yours. Go, while you still have your
own life.
You do not deserve this, you did not provoke it.
Keep us posted on how you are doing - my thoughts and prayers are
with you.
bright blessings,
-HA
|
| 69.8 | Understanding /= making all right | GALVIA::HELSOM | | Thu Apr 21 1994 10:27 | 35 |
| I agree with all the previous replies that you should get out right away, no
matter how difficult it seems. Hopefully by now you're in contact with an
appropriate agency--your local police or women's refuge (assuming you are a
woman), and the services they refer you to. We don't want to read about you in
the police blotter.
I also agree with the noter who said that you shouldn't rationalise your
partner's behaviour. Your note seems to imply that the fact that your partner's
parents had an abusive relationship could provide a key to therapy. But your
partner probably thinks it justifies beating you up.
I've often wondered why people hang around to be abused. The "women who love too
well" literature depicts the situation of many of them, but doesn't explain it.
But there was a study published three or four years ago which rings true with my
experiences of people who had one parent who abused the other
This study suggests that a child begins by identifying with the abused parent
(usually the mother), often because the child is also abused. But if the child
is a boy, he learns to imitate the abusive behaviour as part of becoming a man,
while also retaining sympathy for the abused partner. This can mean that men
whose fathers abused their mothers can be very sympathetic to women, and offer
nurturing and support to them because they want to make up for the abuse their
father inflicted. But they have also learned their father's behaviour, and hand
out the abuse that allows them to sympathise with the abused partner.
This is a particularly vicious circle because what makes men from an abusive
background attractive derives from the same life-history as their tendency to
abuse. So I'd say again that the only way out for you is out the door and into a
safe place.
Helen
Sorry to gender this discussion when you don't want to discuss the topic. If
you're a man with an abusive woman partner, the same applies: don't hang around
to be damaged.
|
| 69.9 | Reply from anonymous author of base note | QUARK::MODERATOR | | Thu Apr 21 1994 10:31 | 33 |
| Thanks everyone for your replies, I didn't expect any for days at
least!
Last night my spouse apologised, lots of tears, flowers etc etc which
I'm already hardened to. BUT, I asked him not to go after he packed
his bags. I'm stupid but I love him. To further complicate matters
grossly I was going through a divorce when I met him and I'm still
clearing up the aftermath of that, I couldn't cope with all of that
again.
Should I stay and help him deal with his anger, for which he says he
desperately needs my help?? Could he get better?? I am an
antagonist, I can't keep my mouth shut and I KNOW that is not an
excuse for his behaviour but my persistent back chat does spark him
off.
I feel such a fool, I've made such a mess of my life and I'm still
young.
If I just left he would call me at work and keep me on the phone
(which he does if we've been fighting) and worse still he would
probably come into the office and cause a rumpus. We have a joint
bank account and huge financial commitments with just setting up home.
It's not as easy as just walking out without notice, which is what I
did to my ex-husband.
I know that keeping the PEACE would allow him to get through his
treatment, I haven't done in the past as I don't see why I should
become a mouse. Should I give it a try short term??
Thanks All, heaps and heaps.
|
| 69.10 | | NASENG::HEATHER | mist illusion rips away | Thu Apr 21 1994 11:03 | 24 |
| Anon,
Nothing has changed. He has apologized, and upped the ante by
offering to leave.....he *will* hit you again.
Your "back chat" is *not* the problem - his violence and temper
is. You are still apologizing for him and minimizing what is going
on - I know - I've done it myself - I was abused as a child.....but
it wasn't as bad as some others I know, so I was constantly saying
it wasn't so bad....as least "this or that" didn't happen. It
*was* that bad.....your situation *is* that bad.
In my opinion, if you stay and "help him deal with his anger" you
will be hit more and more frequently, and spend time in the emergency
room. And if you "change your ways" for him in the "short term" you
will begin to lose yourself. That's also something I've done, and it's
horrible and takes a very long time to get yourself back from. Don't.
Money/houses/finances can be worked via an attorney if need be.
They are not excuses to stay and be battered. No one deserves that.
I still say get out.
bright blessings,
-HA
|
| 69.11 | | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Why not ask why? | Thu Apr 21 1994 11:06 | 35 |
|
Re .0 - 4 ideas for you:
On one hand -
Watch the place in yourself where you're drawn to conspire with
him in the abuse of another human being - that other human being
just happens to be *you*. An argument gone too far? Not even
entering into it with him may one day save your life!
On the other -
No one *ever* deserves to be hit across the face, *no matter what*
they do. Therefore, there is no justification for him doing that
to you - you cannot be at fault or responsible, in any way, shape
or form.
On one hand -
A definition of "insanity" is doing the same thing and expecting
different results. Therefore, if something doesnt change or become
different on your part, you will be hit again. If you're willing
to wait for *him* to change - for whatever reason - you stand to
wait a very long time, while being in a very dangerous situation.
And on the other -
*He* doesnt have to be different - BUT, you dont have to be with
him either. Let him go - he'll either find someone else to beat,
or perhaps his pain will get bad enough as a result, that he'll
do something about his problems.
Hope this helps,
Joe
|
| 69.12 | | EVMS::KRIVERS | Desperado | Thu Apr 21 1994 11:20 | 32 |
| Your husband probably *is* sorry when he says he is, but the fact that
this just keeps repeating itself says that he's not sorry enough not to
do it again. You want to help him, help yourself first. You're not
going to be very helpful in a hospital bed, or worse, in a morgue.
Remember all those things you read in papers and see in TV about the
same sorts of things and think, "How can those women DO that?" and the
incidents seem so removed because they're happening to Someone Else?
Well, it's happening to you.
Not to sound scary, but if what you've presented are facts, it IS
happening to you. Go away, get safe and if your husband really wants
to change, he'll go get appropriate help for himself. Or he won't,
justifying it all he wants. That's, to be blunt, not your problem.
Your problem is protecting YOU before something that's Bad gets Worse.
You certainly may love him, and he may certainly love you, but
nevermind all the romantic notions in the world -- saying I'm sorry
doesn't validate hitting you. And you shouldn't HAVE to endure a
relationship where you can't speak up for fear of being hit, can't do
this for fear of pissing him off. That's not a relationship, that's a
prison.
I agree with a couple notes back, you do sound like you really do KNOW
what's going on it wrong and what you should do, you're just torn about
doing it. We can't make you do the right thing, but try to take heed
that about ever reply in this note has said "Get out"....
Good luck to you,
kim
|
| 69.13 | :-( | MIMS::ROBINSON_B | | Thu Apr 21 1994 11:30 | 18 |
|
Although I would not recommend it, if you are determined to stay
with your husband, it would be a good idea to get away from him for a
little while at least. Let him see what it would be like without you.
That might help him realize his true feelings for you.
Just remember, if he has another one of his outbreaks, it could end
up much worse. You will be taking responsibility if something happens
to you since you stayed voluntarily. I am not trying to be cold but I
have been around violent people before and they never seem to really
change, although they might change for a little while.
Make sure your husband realizes that you ARE capable of leaving him
if he cannot change. If he thinks you wont leave anyway, why would he
go to all the trouble of trying to change.
Keep your chin up. We are all pulling for you.
*B*
|
| 69.14 | Reply from anonymous author of base note | QUARK::MODERATOR | | Thu Apr 21 1994 11:47 | 50 |
| Thanks Heather for your reply,
I know finances etc., can be dealt with through a lawyer, but I
received Legal Aid for my last divorce and through pressure from my
husband did not keep up payments and now it has been cancelled. I'm
unlikely to obtain it again for another divorce or to sort out
finances again and I simply cannot afford to pay for it myself as our
current outgoings are very large and I still have debt from my
previous marriage.
I managed to find a few violence notes in Womannotes-V4 (I had only
checked V5 before) and there was a checklist for determining if you
are being controlled/abused in note 398.0. I felt sick to the gut
when I realised that 9 of the 13 pointers applied to me.
Today I have had the "are you alright?" at least 10 times, "do you
still love me?" 4 or 5 times and "I feel as much in love as I did when
I met you, and just as happy" and I got a stupid note saying how
things will be different from now.
I made him tell his Mum when he first grabbed my face 3 days after we
got married and tried to remove my nose. She was obviously very
upset, seemed genuinely shocked and stated most definately that he "is
just not like that", "it's not in his nature" evidently it is.
I feel so sick and shaky I can't bear this. I feel sick at the
thought of going home soon. He's phoned 5 times this afternoon, he
knows I'm verging on finishing our marriage.
I need something to spur me, to give me strength. I really feel as
though I'm waiting for the punch, then people can see a black eye or
broken nose, including the police. They can't see a headache. I feel
as though I need some hard justification. It took me 4 years to leave
my ex-husband, I finally found the strength to free myself to go and
find someone who was hygienic, affectionate, willing to work, that
truly love and cared for me ...... look what happened, I'm such an
idiot.
To complicate matters once again and make me feel even more guilty he
has the beginnings of diabetes and a blocked bowel, mind you his
mother gave birth to him so she can help him, right?????
I am so confused ..... I keep hoping and thinking that it just could
get better, we get on so well generally.
Please feel free to be as blunt and straight to the point as you want
to be, I like the facts straight and direct as they have been.
You are all helping me, it's just taking time.
|
| 69.15 | :-( | MIMS::ROBINSON_B | | Thu Apr 21 1994 12:04 | 12 |
|
You are not an idiot. Its not your fault, its his. He was the one
who pretended to be something he is not. You are not a mind reader, how
were you supposed to know that this was going to happen?
Dont let his condidtion sway your decision. If you were not there he
would still be going through the diabetes thing . As for the blocked
bowel, I think it was blocked him up all the way to his brain.
*B*
|
| 69.16 | | NASENG::HEATHER | mist illusion rips away | Thu Apr 21 1994 12:19 | 32 |
| Anon,
As the last noter said *you* are *not* - I repeat *not* an idiot.
Please be *very* careful just now about tearing yourself down. IT
won't help, and you need all the strength and faith in yourself
you can muster. And remember, you were strong enough to do this
before, you *can* do it again.
As for finances - they *can* be worked, you may need to get creative.
Look into annulment, and see if that changes anything - get in touch
with a woman's shelter and see what kinds of advise they can give you
(hint, at least it'll be free...). Think of what friends and family
you have that might be willing to give you a hand short term, or
float you a loan you can pay back over time. Examine every option
you can think of....and then a couple more.
Heavens, your words sound so much like mine....I remember saying,
"I wish he'd just hit me", so I would have something to point at when
people asked me why. *Because you are being abused and are miserable
is why* - and that's *enough*!! You don't need to justify to anyone.
All you need to do is what's best for you - and it sounds like that
is getting out now.
His health problems are his problems - you can sympathize, you
can't make him better, and you are not responsible for him.
You dread going home.....how I remember how that felt....don't let
it go on, your self-esteem will go in the toilet, and your energy
levels and strength will go with it. Take care of *you*.....*NOW*.
bright blessings,
-HA
|
| 69.17 | ex | ASDG::CALL | | Thu Apr 21 1994 12:39 | 48 |
| I kind of knew you would rationalize 'and' internalize all this. I
can tell by the way you say I feel sick and I have a headache. From
now on as the cycle develops you will 'know' two to three days in
advance 'when' you are going to 'get' it again. There is 'nothing' you
can do to 'prevent' it. You can have the house perfectly clean. You can
have your make-up on perfectly. You can have the best dinner on cooking
and you will 'still' get it. If you think you are sick now you will get
sicker and sicker.
I can tell you that this is not a 'happy', 'healthly' relationship.
You cannot get a 'happy, healthly' relationship from a 'sick' one.
Money is not the issue here...you say it is but the money of it is only
going to get worse and worse. The pressure is going to get worse and
worse. The isolation is going to get worse...no friends...no family.
You will be expected not to tell. If his mother and us are the only
ones you told you are already on this path. Blood is thicker than water
and his mother is 'not' there for you.
My advice to you is to begin to set aside $$$ that you 'do not' tell
him about. Set up at least an escape plan so that if you have to run
for your life you can at least 'survive'. Yes this 'could' get into
survival mode for you. At this time the money of it will have 'no'
meaning to you what-so-ever. Also please see a counseler
so you can at least have someone to help you sort all this out.
I think you should know that they have a tenency to 'trap' you so you
can't get out. Don't let yourself be trapped and caged.
Also seek out books so you can at least learn more...
The healthy thing is going by your intutuion.
If it makes you sad, depressed, angry...you have
made the wrong choice. Perhaps you should have taken the time to be
completely free from your last marriage 'before' jumping into the fire.
If you decide to stay...there isn't anything anyone can say or do.
I will help and support you if you decide to leave...if you stay
there's nothing from anyone...only pity...
I didn't want to end my marriage either. I used to thank God everyday
that I got out. I have put all this behind me now as it seems like
another lifetime ago.
Parting words...don't accept less...be the best you can be.
I wish the 'very' best for you in life. I bless you....
|
| 69.18 | Reply from anonymous author of base note | QUARK::MODERATOR | | Thu Apr 21 1994 13:02 | 26 |
| Thank again for your replies. Would anyone advise him leaving and me
staying in the house?
I'm loathed to give up another house after giving my last one to my
ex-husband, if we do split. I just couldn't face living with a friend
again, I couldn't go to my parents as they argue constantly (I think
that's why I married young to my first husband, so that I could get
out). I have thought of getting a job far away from here, but I get
NO free time to myself, I'm see a friend once on my own in the last
year, he always finds a reason for me not going. He split with his
ex-fiancee a few days before their wedding, which I feel he was
justified in doing as she had been cheating on him, and as revenge for
her behaviour he has scratched her car with a key, called her and told
her what he thinks of her, sent her a nasty letter and thumped her
current boyfriend (and supposedly her 'lover' when they were engaged).
What might I be in for? He says he would never give me a divorce, his
dad certainly made his mum wait the 5 years before he had no say in
it.
I feel as though I'm being punished for all of the hurt he has felt
since he was little. If he could rid the hurt and anger would he get
better?
I'm frightened of what he might do to me and perhaps even my friends
and family.
|
| 69.19 | | NASENG::HEATHER | mist illusion rips away | Thu Apr 21 1994 13:15 | 40 |
| This story gets worse and worse.....little by little the fear
and terror creeps out. You are terrified. That should tell
you a lot.
Sure, stay in the house and have him leave if you think it can
be done....then *change the locks* the *minute* he is away. Don't
let him back in unless someone is with you, and only if there are
things he needs. Suggest he go to counselling as a condition of
return, and meet with his counsellor before ever letting him
return.
How long have you been married? If it's not long, consider
looking into an annulment - he doesn't have to agree from what
I understand (although I could be wrong) - If you go to court
over abusive treatment, he doesn't have to agree to divorce
you for you to get one. Look into all aspects.
You say you could bear to live with friends again - yes, you can
bear it - if the alternative is to live in terror or worse, be
badly hurt/beaten - you *can* bear it.
You say you can't bear to give/up lose another house....you can.
I left 2 gorgeous houses when I divorced, one was on 7 acres,
couldn't see the neighbors, wonderful woods in the back, lilacs,
roses, galds, wildflowers - house had a hot tub in a greenhouse
with catherdral ceilings, bedroom had cathedral ceilings and a
loft area - gorgeous. Vacation home on a quiet lake, again, no
neighbors you could see, great view of the lake, and peaceful and
beautiful most of the year - I didn't think I could bear to leave
those either.....I did - I decided my sanity and happiness were
worth more - you can do it too.
Trust your instincts - send me mail or call me at dtn 381-6186
if you'd like to talk more.
Protect yourself - however that works best - and take care of *you*!
bright blessings,
-HA
|
| 69.20 | TODAY | MKOTS3::LENNON | | Thu Apr 21 1994 13:35 | 21 |
| When things looked particularly bad for me and my life was just falling
apart all around me, the way that I got through it all was by taking it
"One Day at a Time" sometimes it was one hour at a time.
Try not to think or worry about the future, it will take care of
itself.
The past has already happened, forget it.
What are you going to do TODAY, this hour, to make your LIFE better???
Anything at all will do. It can be as simple as taking a walk or a
bubble bath or as complicated and difficult as getting a restraining
order.
Try praying for help and LISTEN to what you hear back. Trust your gut
and do the right thing, for you.
Love,
Julia
|
| 69.21 | | SSDEVO::DELMONICO | M_DelMonico "440's are forever" | Thu Apr 21 1994 13:49 | 28 |
|
IMHO you need to get out of this relationship. I have never condoned
or will I ever condone one spouse hitting another spouse. My wife and
I have had some friends that went through this abuse and the best thing
they did was walk away and end it. No one deserves this type of treatment
no matter what type of person they are.
Trust you brain and not your heart in this matter before you end up with
serious injuries.
My prayers go out to you,
Mike D
p.s. Married for 24 years to the same person and neither of us has ever
hit the other.
|
| 69.22 | | BIGQ::GARDNER | justme....jacqui | Thu Apr 21 1994 13:59 | 36 |
|
The biggest thing I am seeing in this issue is the fact that
you went from a childhood home to a marriage to another marriage.
When did you have a chance to be YOU? When all is said and done,
you need to become YOU before becoming a part of a couple.
One other issue is the issue of SECRECY! If you can take the
big step of replying here and talking openly about it, you will
have taken a BIG step in gaining control of yourself and your
life. Taking back power and control of yourself is in your
grasp. IF your husband works at Digital, go to Personnel, Security,
your manager to protect your job and yourself in the workplace.
Learn to modify your behavior to be able to gently put the phone
back into the receiver (HANG UP) when your husband calls and acts
abusive during the work hours. Learn to not feel guilty for doing
this. This takes practice. Reclaiming yourself is a long, arduous
task. Many have gone before you.
If you reside outside the USA, let us know. A lot of resources
might not be the same for your country.
LISTEN TO YOUR INNER INSTINCTS! YOUR GUT REACTION IS THERE FOR A
PURPOSE. IT WILL ACTIVATE THE FIGHT OR FLIGHT MECHANISM.
Direct deposit to a DCU account in your name only is possible. Or,
switching to a live check and setting up your own account is possible.
Deciding to go or stay is YOUR choice. An informed choice needs
the feedback of a trained counselor with you being there ALONE with
the professional. A woman's support group might be the next step.
Take care and make sure your birth control is firmly in place!
justme....jacqui
|
| 69.23 | be careful | MR4DEC::MAHONEY | | Thu Apr 21 1994 14:20 | 21 |
| Please leave... don't let yourself be trapped, it will happen again, he
will get mad again, he will hit you again... and again. He has to deal
with his problem, you have to deal WITH YOUR LIFE! please do not be
another statistic or another "number" in the morge... another battered
spouse death... there are too many already, be wise, GET OUT OF HIS
LIFE while you are alive, don't wait...
I believe that in your condition you could get an annulment, as he
hid from you his behavior, I don't know how long you have been
married, but with your record "three days after marriage" of being hit
I don't think I would myself have a "fourth day" of married life. You
cannot change another person, but you can make yourself be respected.
There is NO EXCUSE for hitting. Save yourself, allow time to heal, to
forget, to be at peace... your most important job is to TAKE CARE OF
YOURSELF. Please do. You are quite worth it.
and let him take care of himself... by himself! whenever he is ready,
if he ever is ready, but that should not be your concern.
My heart goes to you... be strong, and Gobd bless!
Ana
|
| 69.24 | | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Why not ask why? | Thu Apr 21 1994 14:46 | 90 |
|
Re - anon.
>Please feel free to be as blunt and straight to the point as you want
>to be, I like the facts straight and direct as they have been.
That being said,
>I need something to spur me, to give me strength. I really feel as
>though I'm waiting for the punch, then people can see a black eye or
>broken nose, including the police. They can't see a headache. I feel
>as though I need some hard justification.
Again, watch that place where you're conspiring with him to cause
physical abuse to another human being! There is *no one*, including you,
who needs to suffer through "a black eye" or a "broken nose" - for any
reason - including being able to justify a choice of action.
>I couldn't go to my parents as they argue constantly (I think
>that's why I married young to my first husband, so that I could get
>out).
*I* think therein lies the difficulty in "getting out" of this
relationship; there's a certain attraction it holds for you, in the
arguments you say your "persistant back chat" sets off. If you really
left him, I imagine it'd get pretty uncomfortable for you in time; who
could you spar and volley with? With whom could you recreate those familiar
"at-home" surroundings?
Not to confuse you, but to say that you're not the first person
to leave home in order to get away from some unpleasant aspect of the
household - only to land themselves (Gee? - How did that happen?) in
virtually the same situation - only with different players.
>I feel as though I'm being punished for all of the hurt he has felt
>since he was little. If he could rid the hurt and anger would he get
>better?
That's probably completely accurate. Is it worth dissapating all his
negative energy in your flesh and bones - so that you can keep trying to
work out the hurt and anger *you've* gotten since you were little? No way!
There's much better ways to do that than to submit to physical
battery. It wouldnt work out anyway because your hurt and anger is not
necessarily an issue with him, *as his is most certainly not with you*.
What's certain is the futility in him trying to resolve whatever
feelings he's accumulated since childhood - through beating you! Mostly
because *you're not the person* he has those issues with - that's "Mom" or
"Sister" or "Dad" or "Older Brother" or...who knows.
Likewise, just given that your parents "argue constantly" (and assuming
they've always been that way) that's a very painful situation for a kid
to grow up in. I should know - mine had "the battle without end"! Dad
remarried when my Mom died and guess what? "The_battle_without_end" again!
What would your guess be as to a behavior that *I'd* be predisposed to
in a relationship? It's taken a lot of work on my part to not reinact the
battle without end in my marriage - because on some level, that's what
feels right - even through I *hate it* most times.
There came a point where I decided that I hated it much more than it
feeling right on some level was worth and I changed myself. To this day I
can "slip" back into all of that, but most often I can catch myself before
that happens. I do this successfully by maintaining a constant level of
understanding and awareness around what the hell it is I'm trying to do,
who really owns the issue and why it feels the way it feels when I
recreate that space with my wife.
That experience of mine is for you - rather than to be used to
enlighten your husband. You mentioned he believes he desperately needs
your help...Possibly because on some level he recognizes that you offer
him the perfect opportunity to open to the rage that's inside him, more
appropriately directed at whomever it really belongs to, but somehow
convienently directed at you. You just happen to "set him off" with what
you present him in your own familiarity - they call that "A relationship
made in heaven".
So what's really happening on top of you being beaten is that you're
being *used* - you're actually a *convienence* for him. You make it easy
for him to blow off his steam, he gets to knock you around some - without
even having to face down the real issue nor the real person he has it with!
Some portion of his tears, apologies and flowers are so he can keep
this "great deal" he has for himself going with you - because it takes
much more guts and courage to face the truth, than it does to abuse
someone.
Joe
|
| 69.25 | get out | TARKIN::BREWER | | Thu Apr 21 1994 15:23 | 22 |
|
I have a very close freind who is a corrections officer in
a state prison. 1/3 or so of the inmates are in for
murder. Many of them of their spouses. She was talking the other
night to a friend of ours who's spouse "slapped the sh*t" out
of her the other night for the first time. And he was so sorry
after wards. Our mutual friend was saying that she really
loves him and it was just this time and it wasn't that bad.
My C.O. friend took a really hard line with her about how
many of the inmates she talks to that talk about how they
just started "getting rough" with their wife..then a slap
here or there...then a beating...then...
It doesn't stop unless they get help. But, that's HIS job.
NOT yours. Your job is to take care of you..your LIFE.
Protect yourself. It will not spontaneously stop on it's
own. It's about power and control and rage. It's NOT about
YOU.
Get out.
Peace
dotty
|
| 69.26 | a phone call away | ASDG::CALL | | Thu Apr 21 1994 15:27 | 41 |
| You have every right to be afraid of what this man might do...he has
threatened and will probably carry out some of his threats. He will do
that to maintain 'control'. That is why I'm telling you that your life
will go on the line. Maybe not today maybe not tomorrow. A lifetime
with this person? Isolated? Alone? NO HELP anywhere. The longer you are
in the less options you are going to find for your self.
Today I AM SAFE. I Do not live under threats or in fear. I own my own
home. I pay my own bills and I don't have to accept anything that's
unhealthy. I've traveled a very long road to get here. Probably cried
enough tears to sink the queen mary. Let me tell you it's worth all the
pain and all the tears.
You are not alone. Other women have gone before you. They got out and
so can you. You 'do not' have to live like this. I repeat...you 'do
not' have to live like this. They have passed laws now. The police will
pick him up and he can go to jail for disobeying a restraining order.
Better to withstand a little harrasment now or a little car scrathing
or a nastygram then what you 'will' get later. My husband threatened to
burn the house down...he took a tire iron to my car and beat the whole
thing up. (with me and my kids in it) I called the police many times to
come. He is no longer in a position to hurt me. The last time he threatned
me I just took the steps to counteract him. If he calls and says anything
that's insulting I just hang up. (I have children by him).
Please call the Battered Women's Coalition. You can get the number by
calling 411 and asking for it. You can return to your home when you
feel it's safe to do so. They 'will' help you work through all your
issues. There are thousands of women working and sending in donations
so that women like you can safely get out. I'm not sure how much
financial or legals they will help with but I'm sure they have programs
in place. Just see if it's an option for you.
Call and ask for Caroline Ramsay. She's the director. Tell her you work
for Digital and that I sent you. She will give you the expert advice.
She has put her lifes work into helping women like you. Please call...it
can't hurt. Call Dina Duffy 223-4442 and ask her about the Jane Doe
safety fund and how to get in touch with Caroline.
I wouldn't worry about the house right now. Worry about the big things
right now and let the petty things go.
|
| 69.27 | | USCTR1::WOOLNER | Your dinner is in the supermarket | Thu Apr 21 1994 15:52 | 28 |
| Remember that we don't think you're dumb. We don't think you're
foolish, or any of those things you've called yourself in your replies
to us. You're *smart* and *healthy* to be reaching out for help.
The task in front of you must seem overwhelming, but as someone
mentioned, right now you just have to deal with *today*. Actually you
only have to deal with the first task on today's list (make a call to a
battered women's shelter?). Then you'll have that under your belt,
have just a smidgeon more self-esteem (revel in it!), and you can move
on to doing just the *next* task on the list.
Thanks for being so straight with us, for having the guts to tell us
how afraid you are, for being able to "take it" when we shoot from the
hip. I remember anonymous noters who seemed to be in the same type of
trouble and who checked in only rarely, then disappeared from the
notesfile... we can only hope they're safe now.
It's OK that you're young. It's OK that you had a first marriage that
didn't work out, and it's OK that you married again; it's OK that you
remarried maybe a little too soon (to sort out who *you* are). It's
NOT OK that your husband hid his violent nature, NOT OK that he hits
you, and NOT OK if you blame yourself even one tiny bit for his
problem. Once you are safe, physically removed from him, it's OK to
wish him well in his recovery - but as others have pointed out, it's
HIS recovery and he's the only one who can do it.
Best wishes,
Leslie
|
| 69.28 | | BIGQ::GARDNER | justme....jacqui | Thu Apr 21 1994 16:04 | 11 |
|
Decide for YOURSELF what YOU want to do and when YOU want to do it!
THAT is the first step in taking back the power and control for
YOURSELF.
Do what you need to do to keep safety foremost in your life. Whether
it means to stay or to go or inbetweeen.
justme....jacqui
|
| 69.29 | good luck... | EMASS::RAGUCCI | | Thu Apr 21 1994 17:10 | 4 |
| that is all good advice
now it is up to you...good luck..don't do it alone..
get all the friends & family u can !
Bob
|
| 69.30 | Voice of experience | CTOAVX::RIVARDB | | Thu Apr 21 1994 17:38 | 30 |
| I've been there. It never gets better. Everyone has given you GOOD
advice. There were no laws to help me 26 years ago. I had my head
banged into a brick wall until my ear was bleeding. This was the first
time, and he was SOOOO sorry afterwards. Then I married him. I was very
young and insecure. One morning he took our 6 month old son out of my
arms, put him in his playpen, told the neighbor I had been talking to
at the backdoor that if anyone called the cops they'd never see me
again, closed the door and slapped me in the face from one end of the
house to the other. Summertime. All the windows open, people every-
where. I screamed as loud and long as I could. No one did anything.
One night he (at 195 lbs., 6' tall) picked me up (5'2", 105 lbs) by
my waist and the neck of my shirt and threw me across a room, through
the air. I hit a bureau and fell on the floor. That's when he started
kicking me. I couldn't even get up. All I could do was keep my hands
over my face. Bruises on my back as big as the palm of my hand.
I got a divorce but things were better between us so I kept seeing
him. HE was in control. He was manipulative. I had left him before
and he always seemed to be able to make me come back. After about two
years he tried to hit me over the head with a 2x4. I moved and it came
down on the back of the loveseat. The 2x4 cracked. It could have been
my head. Since then he's had 6 or 7 girlfriends and beaten every one of
them. My point is -- they VERY SELDOM stop. Get out now while you can.
The longer you stay the harder it gets. Sorry for going on like this
but I wanted you to know what you could be in for. When I read your
note my stomach just knotted up. I can't even watch movies like "The
Burning Bed". I get too upset. Please take everyone's advice. YOU are
your main priority.
b.r.
|
| 69.31 | | QUARK::MODERATOR | | Thu Apr 21 1994 21:32 | 76 |
| The following entry has been contributed by a member of our community
who wishes to remain anonymous. If you wish to contact the author by
mail, please send your message to QUARK::MODERATOR, specifying the
conference name and note number. Your message will be forwarded with
your name attached unless you request otherwise.
Steve
I will try not to give you advice, merely relate my tale and leave you
to draw your own conclusions.
Not long after we first married, my husband started to hit me..not
hard, just a slap here and there, usually whilst we were mid-argument.
I was emotionally hurt and did not tell anyone, did nothing about it.
I loved him and hoped the situation would improve. It didn't, it got
worse, but each time he was sorry. I threatened to leave. The
situation improved for a couple of years.
Over time, my trust in him was re-built and I believed that *finally*
his violence had been overcome and we could be happy. Then, he was
put under some pressure at work began to verbally bash me for no
reason. I accepted that, everyone loses their temper from time to
time, right? I truly believed it was just his way of releasing
tension. Sometimes when this happened, I would react and shout at
him, he would grab my arms and squeeze them - it really hurt. I was
scared, but loved this man, and hoped it would get better.
The pressure at his work subsided, and things got better. I fell
pregnant, and we were happy for a while. It was a difficult pregnancy
and there were rows, but he never laid a finger on me. Things were
improving! We had a beautiful child. Not long after my return to
work, my husband came under pressure at his work..and things worsened,
the pushing and grabbing started. He lost his job. The pushing and
grabbing worsened. I was tempted to leave, but could not in my heart
do that to him at such a time. I loved him, things would get better.
A new job opportunity arose, which he took and said he was happy with.
The nature of his new work meant that he was often home late,
sometimes he would be in a real sombre mood. At those times, he would
pick holes in anything and everything I tried to do..until, after many
days I would loose my temper. He began to grab me and push me against
the walls..or pin me against the furniture. This continued until one
day he took a kitchen knife and threatened me with it. I was REALLY
frightened. I told him I was leaving. At that he told me I was
incapable of bringing up a child on my own ("a bad mother") and could
not support us on my salary, furthermore that should I take his child,
he would seek me out and "get" me and my family. My love was
diminishing, but I was scared to leave. I told one person what had
happened.
Another job change and an improvement. I was under threat of
redundancy, and this caused the grabbing, pushing, pinning to start
again...only this time, if I managed to break free, he would bar my
exit from the room. I was not made redundant, but my love continued
to diminish. I told someone else what had happened.
More problems with his work, and off we went again..until one day, he
pinned me in one room and grabbed me round the throat and started to
squeeze. I think he must have come to his senses when our then VERY
mobile and vocal child entered the next room, as he let go. My love
for him was gone. Four people now knew the situation I was in. I
told him if anything like that EVER happened again, I would leave. I
began to put my life in order.
This is longer than I expected, so I'll try to cut it short! Things
continued in this way. We are now in out 9th year of marriage and
shortly will be separating. My moods vary from happy to sad,
sometimes I think I was foolish to stay so long. Who knows what the
future will hold - but I do know this is the right choice for my child
and I.
Whatever you decide to do, I wish you all the happiness in the world.
|
| 69.32 | Make a decision and create a plan | MR4DEC::JONES | | Fri Apr 22 1994 21:40 | 144 |
| I believe we all want to help you and have agreed on what we
would do...basically get apart. What we have not really done, mainly
because you are still collecting facts and reenforcing our resolve
not to change our recommendations, is help you build a foundation
on what to do after you decide to make a move. Many of the noters
have referenced the fact that their lives took a positive turn for
the better, maybe over years, but it is better. That could be
you. What you have to prepare for, however is change...lots of
it. It is a scary and unchartered, for you, road. It will be
difficult and you will need help, every day for a while, to get
through it, but you and only you can decide whether you want to
make that first step.
There are, as you can see, a lot of us here that will be here...as
long as you will...to listen, talk, offer our experience and love
as you take those steps. Some of us have been through some
deep waters and, if nothing else, when you need non-licensed, but
sincere help/counsel, we will try.
As I have listened, I thought I would toss in a couple of thoughts
that have helped me through some "stuff" recently that has
changed my life forever and focused my attention towards what
I had to do rather than what was easy, or what my first inclination
would have been.
I read the following in a book that I dicovered by accident, which has
been really helpful to me in times of questioning what to do next.
First one, is from what the philosopher Epicteus pointed out
over 19 centries ago, namely, we reap what we sow and that somehow
fate almost always makes us pay for our malefactions. "In the long
run," said Epictetus, "every man will pay the penalty for his own
misdeeds. The man who remembers it will be angry with no one,
indignant with no one, revile no one, blame no one, offend no one,
hate no one." I some way, I think this fits both of you. However,
you are here, with us, safe in sharing and capable of changing what you
are about to do(sow) for the rest of your life. The fruit of what you
do now will not be reaped for months or years, but if you don't start
now, how can you hope to change what and who you are. Joe pointed out
that he has been through this and worked real hard to change. You said
that you came from a bad situation to another and yet another. If you
start now and practice getting into a situation where you don't run to
the next person that you have not carefully and extensively checked
out, you may be lured by yet another person with the qualities to hide
what they are and will become.
On his part, he sounds like he needs to do some reaping...by himself of
solitude, reflection, horror at what he has become and IS. It may not
come, ever, if he doesn't get ahold of some professional help, but the
most important decision you have to make now, is to ensure he makes
that realization by himself, apart from you.
The second thing I will point out is from the same book has to do with
what you should do once you have come to grips with the fact that you
are going to choose to change.
Rule 1. Get and document facts. By this, I mean write down and save
in a safe place....even in a misnamed file at work, what happens that
is significant in your life. What you have relayed to us is certainly
something to put in that file. Document the dates and facts. You may
never read them again, but, you may. Consider the facts that have been
presented here by those who have gone through things the most similar
to your situation.
Rule 2. After carefully considering the facts over a few times...even
with a professional, priest, or some objective people(like us), come
to a decision.
Rule 3. Once you have made a decision, get busy writing a plan and
focus on getting on with the plan...act. Dismiss all the anxiety
associated with any steps you are about to take. Anxiety will be
normal because you are changing and doing something different.
Consider anything new you have ever done, regardless of whether it was
fun or not, all of those things had anxiety associated with them too,
so it is only normal.
Rule 4. Execute the plan, tell or find a few trusted colleauges that
you can share the plan with and ask for their help in being your
spoinsor to check in on you occasionally...better if they are not
originally family type, in your case. If you are tempted to worry
about a problem that arrises, write out and answer the following
questions:
a. What is the problem
b. What is the cause of the problem or reason for worry
c. What are all the possible solutions
d. What is the best solution
e. Choose that one and act on it.
...most of all remember, the first part, you will reap what you sow.
From "How to Stop Worrying and Start Living" by Dale
Carnegie....in most library book shelves
...now to your decision. Most people have said to just leave, or ask
him to leave. I take a slightly different view. If you make that
decision, you need a plan. Part of that plan has been suggested.
First, you have to evaluate, or ask a professional to help you
evaluate, given the facts, whether it is safe to announce your
departure and whereabouts, or to ask him to leave. Violent behaviour
only needs to be severe once to permanently change your looks, your
speech, and your life forever. You must do your best to predict, this
once, what he will do. If you determine it can be managed with a court
order(which I wonder about, given his persistence in calling you 5
times at work), then use that route. If you think he will stalk you or
come to the house all the time or at odd hours, changing locks is
little comfort. You also have to determine what will cause him to
react. Will it be loss of face to the neighbors and his family and
friends...i.e. his Mum...if his wife were to either throw him out
or leave.....for some, having the possession of a wife/thing, is
more important than the person. If this is important, then you have to
orchestrate your exit. I think I could go on and on here, but you
get the general drift. The last thing you want is an opportunity to
get fooled into seeing him again. We have all tried to convince you
that, as far as you and he are concerned, if you make the decision to
make a break, then stick to it. He has created a pattern for the two
of you that will not change in a week, a month or a year. You need to
worry about you.
Now, to you. If you make a decision to make the break, plan on
taking time, a lot of time for you. Focus on at least a couple of
years to get to where you want to be....reap...a positive and new
self esteem and wonderful you. You have a lot to work through with
where you came from, this current situation and where you want to get
to. That will take time, but can't start until you are by yourself and
don't have the chance to regress with his help. That is easy and
unhealthy. We are here(at least for now), but we are not the only ones
to care. We are safe, but you have to find others that can be trusted
to just give you unquestioned support, hugs, listening ears, and
objective counsel. It isn't easy, but I would bet every one of us
would tell you that with time, support and focus, you can detach
from where you are, build a new future and realize, after some period
of time, that the new you has been built on establishing new patterns
of life, carefully selecting the people you associate with so, if you
do find someone you want to spend time with emotionally again, they
will have already been through a filter that is complimentary to you,
supportive of your standards, and can be trusted.
I know you have a lot to think about, but not making a decision is
making the wrong decision. In your case status quo is getting more
unacceptable and supporting his behavior. If you think you love him,
the best thing you can do for him is let him live without you and have
a chance to become a real human being for himself. It seems pretty
clear to us, that he cannot do that with you.
Peace and safety
Jim
|
| 69.33 | You need to be first here!!! | CSC32::SCHIMPF | | Sun Apr 24 1994 20:42 | 18 |
| Hi,
Just want to add my .02 worth; Please don't take this personally
but, the first time this ABUSE occured you were a victim. If you
choose to stay, and it occurs again your a volunteer.
You need to take care of you first. The Husbands problems
are his...You can't fix his, because you are not attending to
nor fixing your own.
Please take care of yourself, and do what you have to do for you!
God Bless you, and a politcally correct HUG!!!
Jeff
|
| 69.34 | | QUARK::LIONEL | Free advice is worth every cent | Mon Apr 25 1994 10:46 | 5 |
| The anonymous author of the base note has asked me to hide her entries -
I have reluctantly done so. She has promised me an "update" later in the
week for me to post here, which I will do.
Steve
|
| 69.35 | Help is available!! | ICS::DUFFY | | Thu Apr 28 1994 17:34 | 21 |
|
There are many resources for you to turn to.
Digital EAP -DTN 223-4439
Massachusetts Coalition of Battered Women Services Groups 617-248-0922
(I'm assuming you are in Mass. since I can't read your notes anymore)
Call either of these numbers and they will give a list a resources in
your area.
Also, 411 has a new service- any 411 operator can give you a list of
Women's Shelters in your area. You do not need to know the name and
location for a shelter. Just tell the operator that you are looking for
#'s for some Battered Women's Shelters/Resource Groups in your area, and
they will provide you with the information.
PLEASE seek the help that is available to you!!!
Dina
|
| 69.36 | | QUARK::LIONEL | Free advice is worth every cent | Thu Apr 28 1994 17:42 | 11 |
| Re: .35
A comment - "411" rarely works anywhere anymore. I assume you mean the
Directory Assistance" service which is 1-555-1212 (or 1-areacode-555-1212;
see your local phone directory). This of course is useful only to people
in the US.
Another US resource is the listing of "Human Services" numbers which is
generally found at the front of your local phone directory,
Steve
|
| 69.37 | 411 | ASDG::CALL | | Thu Apr 28 1994 18:19 | 5 |
| re .36
411 IS the number to call to get the listing. Now that you're aware
you'll probably notice or hear about it. They are slowly getting this
message out to women.
|
| 69.38 | | QUARK::LIONEL | Free advice is worth every cent | Thu Apr 28 1994 21:55 | 5 |
| Seems unlikely to me, as the phone company has been phasing out 411
for some 20 years now.... It probably still works in some areas,
but not most places.
Steve
|
| 69.39 | | ICS::DUFFY | | Fri Apr 29 1994 09:50 | 10 |
| Well, as far as I know 411 works in all of Massachusetts and Maine.
And, like I said in my previous note, I'm not sure where the noter is
located, because I can't read the notes becasue they are hidden.
So, the information I included was for Massachusetts, where 411 IS
directory assistance. I never claimed that 411 was directory assistance
for all areas.
Dina
|
| 69.40 | | USCTR1::WOOLNER | Your dinner is in the supermarket | Fri Apr 29 1994 11:57 | 4 |
| My guess is that she's in the U.K. Can anyone "across the pond" give
pointers to support groups/shelters there?
Leslie
|
| 69.41 | get safe, then work on it together | BEGOOD::HEBERT | dances with words | Fri Apr 29 1994 13:03 | 30 |
| Basenoter, I know it must be tough hearing everyone tell you to
leave him. You got married "for better, for worse, in sickness and in
health, etc..." I know a couple of people in your position, and they
won't leave because they're afraid of what their families or their
priest will say. Like you, they're waiting for that black eye or broken
arm so they'll have an "excuse."
I don't think anyone here is saying that you're supposed to take a
marriage commitment lightly. And nobody is saying that you have to
stop loving or caring about him.
The message everyone seems to be pushing is that you need to be safe
before you can work on this problem. Sadly, it sounds like you're not
safe being alone in that house with him. Get out and *then* work on the
relationship a couple times a week with a counselor. You don't have to
throw away the past few years or months that you've built with this
person.
I've tried to reply to this note several times and keep deleting it
because I get so frustated thinking about my friends who are also in this
situation. Basenoter, if things start getting better - please continue
to get professional help/support! If you follow the more typical
pattern (like two of my friends), things will get better for a while,
you'll have a child, he'll eventually get violent again, and then we'll
see you in the other note: "why I'm staying in a bad marriage for my
children."
good luck,
-- Jeff
|
| 69.42 | UK Resources | GALVIA::HELSOM | Don't mind that, sir. It's only a slowworm. | Sun May 01 1994 10:50 | 29 |
| Re: .40
In general, the position in the UK is broadly similar to that in the US.
There is a women's refuge network in the UK. See the phone book for local
contacts--try the useful numbers section at the front of the book, or under the
name of the town/city in the main listings. The directory enquiries operator
(192) should also be able to find the relevant number.) Women's refuges provide
a safe place and support while you sort out what to do next. They can also put
you in touch with other services and provide legal advice.
Relate, the national marriage counselling service, offers counselling for
couples and individually, fees based on ability to pay. They are probably a good
bet if you do decide to leave and need help getting through the practical and
emotional effects.
Some UK police forces have domestic violence units where you can get legal
advice, pointers to counselling, and other services. Although some forces are
better than others, all are much better on domestic violence than they were a
few years ago, and a few are excellent. You can expect to be treated
sympathetically if you choose to bring a charge.
FWIW the UK police reckon that a formal warning is the best way to prevent a
repeat offence in domestic violence. If you are being beaten by your partner in
the UK, going to the police is certainly an option. Letting your partner know
that what he is doing is illegal and not endorsed by society could be one way to
make him consider what he is doing,
Helen
|
| 69.43 | Reply fron anonymous author of base note | QUARK::MODERATOR | | Tue May 03 1994 10:46 | 95 |
|
Thank you to everyone again for their overwhelming response. I
was going to leave it a few more weeks before entering an update
but I feel I should let you all know how I'm doing now.
Basically things came to a head one night, when I got home from
work and told him what things I was unhappy about and what I
wanted to change. As expected he got angry and started crying
and thumping around. He calmed down a little and basically tried
to twist what I was saying around. He said one of us had to
leave, that he was going, then he wasn't going that I was to
leave. He then said if it was over that he wanted back my
wedding rings which I refused to do until after the request was
repeated 10 or 11 times when I gave in and handed them back. He
erupted and got a knife from the kitchen and held it to his wrist
saying all sorts of rubbish. He came over to me and dropped the
knife and then went upstairs into the bedroom. Next thing I
heard sounded like he was having an epileptic fit (he isn't
epileptic) accompanied by loud wailing and crying. I ran out of
the house and thinking he would chase after me, I ran into a
neighbours house.
It took him around 3 hours to guess I was there, by this time I'd
had my Mum and best friend on the phone wondering what was going
on, so I told them all, including my neighbours. It resulted in
him pleading with me to talk to him face to face (this was on the
phone as I refused to see him) I did not give in and he finally
accepted this and that I was not returning home until he had seen
a professional. He left me in peace at my neighbours for the
rest of the night and the following day we went to see our GP, a
Psychiatric Nurse and a Psychotherapist. The Psychiatric nurse
was most useful as he suggested listing rules in order to put
controls in place to avoid arguments going over the top in the
immediate future until he'd worked through his aggression with a
psychologist.
We made this list over coffee and when I was satisfied I was safe
and that he knew I would leave for good if he so much as thumped
a piece of furniture again, I returned home.
He hasn't lost his temper yet though I have provoked him to see
how he would deal with me. He knows the score, he says he was
shocked into it. He knows his behaviour was inexcusable,
unacceptable and frightening for me. His Mum and Dad seem to
have alot to answer for, role models etc, though that does not
excuse him whatsoever.
The control and manipulation issues will be worked through with
marriage guidance, though they are not as bad there is still a
hint of it there which I'm fighting all the way.
I'm hoping this will be a success story, I'm hoping that the
pattern didn't have long enough to emerge so firmly that it
couldn't be broken.
I don't feel in any immediate danger, he knows that he must
control his anger by leaving the house to cool down. He seems to
want to get rid of the rage, and I've told him that only he can
do it, if he doesn't he's lost me permanently.
I know I'm taking a gamble, but it is what I have to do. The
main thing it is out in the open, those closest to me
particularly know everything and are checking in with me every
other day. He's getting help and hopefully the hypnosis will put
a block in his mind to stop him going too far at least until he
has learnt what is acceptable and what is not all over again.
The Psychy Nurse seemed to think that his parents subconsciously
taught him that lashing out was how you dealt with opposition
from your partner, and that it was OK. Myself and the
professionals have made it quite clear that it is NOT, under any
circumstances.
I have a problem in what to do about his mother - she kept
pestering my Mum on the phone the night I left (wonder where he
gets his persistent phone-calling from??) and apparently told her
all sorts of lies about me which my Mum immediately told me. I
was horrified with what she said, along the lines of I was
hitting him all of the time (I haven't) that I was lazy around
the house and that he was never done complaining about me. My
husband was ready to never speak to her again until the
Psychotherapist said he shouldn't condemn her. He then called
her to say to leave him alone for a bit and he would phone her in
a few weeks - she agreed but then called him at work a few days
later.
My personal feelings are that he should cut contact with her
until we are through this and he is strong enough to overcome the
emotional s**t she throws at him. Others say this is wrong. Any
advice?
I would also appreciate comments on what I am doing - seen it all
before? No hope, lots of hope?
And heaps of thanks and appreciation for everyone's concern, it
has made me ALOT stronger than I was.
|
| 69.44 | Good News!!! | MKOTS3::LENNON | | Tue May 03 1994 11:57 | 6 |
| Congratulations!!!!!
You sound like a different person, much stronger and very sure of
yourself. Pat yourself on the back. You've done a great job.
Julia
|
| 69.45 | Good stuff! | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Why not ask why? | Tue May 03 1994 13:39 | 77 |
|
I'd like to second a congratulations. It sounds from what you've
written as though things have gone in a definite positive direction
for you and for him.
> He hasn't lost his temper yet though I have provoked him to see
> how he would deal with me. He knows the score, he says he was
> shocked into it. He knows his behaviour was inexcusable,
> unacceptable and frightening for me. His Mum and Dad seem to
> have alot to answer for, role models etc, though that does not
> excuse him whatsoever.
That's good to read, though be careful with prodding him to "test
it" or whatever. Sometimes people like your husband really do want to
change themselves; they just havent run into a situation in their life
that's powerful enough to motivate that change. I hope with you he has.
I know - I've had that experience.
> I don't feel in any immediate danger, he knows that he must
> control his anger by leaving the house to cool down. He seems to
> want to get rid of the rage, and I've told him that only he can
> do it, if he doesn't he's lost me permanently.
That's good - for *you*! Remember that you have the option to leave
as well, go off for a drive or walk, go spend the night at a neighbors or
a hotel if necessary; take care of yourself if he isnt able to take
care of himself, so to speak.
> The Psychy Nurse seemed to think that his parents subconsciously
> taught him that lashing out was how you dealt with opposition
> from your partner, and that it was OK. Myself and the
> professionals have made it quite clear that it is NOT, under any
> circumstances.
Good for you again! The nurse's perception just might be correct;
what he does "feels right" to him on some level and he's going to have
to learn how to recognize that in the context of it being *unacceptable*.
> I have a problem in what to do about his mother - she kept
> pestering my Mum on the phone the night I left (wonder where he
> gets his persistent phone-calling from??) and apparently told her
> all sorts of lies about me which my Mum immediately told me. I
I think it's inate for Mums to defend their children; to feel
"defensive" when some shortcoming of _their child_ is being raised as an
issue. Also given that this has to do somewhat with how he was raised,
it's a reflection on her; probably one that isnt particularly
comfortable for her to sit with. I'm not sure that there's anything you
can "do" besides explain your position to her as best you can - and let
it go at that. In terms of what's best for you, what's best for him,
and what's best for the relationship - in that order of course!
> My personal feelings are that he should cut contact with her
> until we are through this and he is strong enough to overcome the
> emotional s**t she throws at him. Others say this is wrong. Any
> advice?
My unqualified advice would be that your personal feelings are
correct. It's well known that an alcoholic (for example) MUST first
succeed in behavior-modifying their relationship to alcohol, before he
or she can face further emotional difficulty - such as that which a
new relationship could present.
Likewise, your husband must first succeed in behavior-modifying his
relationship to physically lashing out at you, before being presented
with further emotional difficulty. The easiest way to fail is by trying
to take it all on, all at once. Show this idea and analogy to those who
think otherwise.
I wish you the best in your effort!
Joe
|
| 69.46 | | ASABET::J_TOMAO | | Tue May 03 1994 14:06 | 4 |
| Sounds like your on the right track!
(HUGS) of support for you,
Joyce
|
| 69.47 | | CFSCTC::ZOLLI | patience has her perfect work | Tue May 03 1994 14:50 | 11 |
|
Good for you!
I am hoping the nurse or psychiatric people can put him in touch with a
long-term treatment program (in the greater Boston area there's a
terrific one called EMERGE) that can help him control his temper and
outbursts over the long-term, creating a change in his behavior over
time, and with support....
-Jody
|
| 69.48 | | ASDG::CALL | | Tue May 03 1994 17:00 | 20 |
| I'm not feeling sooo hopeful...I do understand that you have to try.
At least you can say that you gave it your best shot. Nobody can blame
you for that.
Good luck to you
ps...I think that you are just prolonging the agony.
Did you even make any of those 'other' calls? They are information
gathering sources so that you can take care of you. I see you did a
good job of taking care of him. Please call....just to talk so you can
get a better feel of all of this.
again not what you want to hear
(from one who's been down your path)
I guess that it's going to have to get very painful for you to finally
realize that you might have to make a change yourself. Keep in
touch...don't hesitate to write back if you need our support in the
future.
|
| 69.49 | Be firm, consistent and aware | MR4DEC::JONES | | Tue May 03 1994 23:38 | 23 |
| Your commitment to affect change is terrific. Keep that focus up.
However, remember:
-YOU need to change in the process...for the tougher and for the long
haul to ensure you are safe and don't compromise yourself
-Repetition and diligence is the key to his recovery/change, if it
occurs. Based on his mother's actions, his family of origin did
nothing but encourage his behaviour and "learned" behaviour is not
changed or substituted with different-hopefully better-behaviour
overnight.
-We are still here and want you to check in to make sure you are OK and
also to know that we are thinking about how you are.
Keep up and accept the monitoring by others. If he does not know about
it, let him be aware that others are helping you through this change
and even though it is not a threat to him, it will become another
support and reenforcement for him to know you are never really as
vulnerable as you might have once been. He now has all the more reason
to either come to grips with his "problem" and learn a new way of
reacting, or leave this current situation and try elsewhere because
collective YOU has more eyes, ears and backup.
Be safe
Jim
|
| 69.50 | Thanks goodness.... | GALVIA::HELSOM | Don't mind that, sir. It's only a slowworm. | Wed May 04 1994 09:40 | 24 |
| Let me be the twelfth to congratulate you on starting to sort things out:-)
A couple of comments:
I think that I initially responded to the feeling of isolation you conveyed, as
did some of the other people who replied to the base note. We were urging you to
get out of a dangerous situation and put yourself in the hands of a support
network of some kind. In fact, by showing that you could act on your own behalf
you seem to have started a process where you can both work together to sort
things out.
Hopefully, knowing that there is support out there can help others in a similar
position to take control.
RE: your SO's mother: This rings a bell. My father always refused any kind of
counselling for his children. He said that somebody who didn't know how evil we
were could only think that we'd either inherited it or been brought up that way,
and he wasn't going to have anybody blaming him for our delinquencies.
Fortunately, most of the problems we had were only problems for him (like
listening to pop music....)
Good luck!
Helen
|
| 69.51 | | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Why not ask why? | Thu May 05 1994 13:08 | 23 |
|
Re Anonymous -
Last night I showed my wife my last reply here, sort of in a "Look
at what I wrote context". She wasnt too pleased with my congratulating
you in your choice to stay with your husband, as he's been abusive.
(Ummm, she doesnt tolerate that stuff.)
What she said that's possibly useful, that I thought was worth
mentioning was the idea of "abuser's remorse". She mentioned it in
the context of your testing your husbands resolve; "Already? - of course
he's going to put forth the correct response!"
From what she said, "abuser's remorse" is a ticket of good behavior
that lasts about 3 weeks - before the old behaviors start to surface
again. I'm not saying this to frighten you or give you cause to change
your mind, only to let you know that it's something that's been discovered,
qualified and named and is a real thing that happens sometimes - so you
can be aware of it.
Be safe,
Joe
|
| 69.52 | Be very careful | LEDS::BRAUN | Rich Braun | Mon May 09 1994 11:24 | 15 |
| Re: abuser's remorse
While I haven't had to deal with violence in my relationships, I can
relate to the 3-week period which Joe just mentioned. After a
disagreement is resolved by pledges of better behavior, the real test
comes about 2 to 4 weeks later when the immediacy and compelling
emotional feelings of the dispute have faded.
Actions speak louder than words. Watch what people do, and take words
with a grain of salt.
-rich
Mass Storage Engineering OEM D&SG SHR1-3/O13 DTN: 237-2124
Work: [email protected] 508-841-2124
Home: [email protected] URL http://www.pn.com
|
| 69.53 | The cylce of violence | WECROW::HILL | In casual pursuit of serenity. | Mon May 09 1994 12:25 | 32 |
| Anon,
I just read this chain of notes.
I'm glad you survived his last outburst.
Briefly I'd like to describe something called the cycle of violence. Usually
after a violent incident the there will be a groveling appology, gifts, a
promise to change, seeking help maybe. There may be a period of calm. The wife
feels safer, happier. The husband feels better. Then things get a little
uncomfortable for him. The easiest thing for him is to use the behavior he
knows best, shouting, threats, doorslamming, name calling, getting in your face,
stopping the wife from leaving, slapping, shaking, choking, thumping kicking.
The cycle repeats. It is hard to break. The violence gets worse each time.
You may have started a path of recovery, if you have this is just a
begining.
I suspect you love him and he loves you but that doesn't protect you.
I won't tell you to leave, that is your decision. I'd suggest that you find
out more about groups for battered women and how the law will help you in your
area. I'd suggest that you have an escape path in place for when this happens
again.
A statistic that I have heard quoted is that 1% of men who seek help for
thier abusive behaviour succeed in not being abusive again.
Emerge was mentioned a few notes back. They are based in Cambridge Mass and
can be contacted at (617)422-1548. Leave a message and they will get back to you.
Good luck,
Peter.
|
| 69.54 | | LEDS::BRAUN | Rich Braun | Mon May 09 1994 18:40 | 22 |
| Re: -1
I think that's wise advice. Look at response .35 for a pointer to
the Mass. Coalition of Battered Women's Shelters, and if you're in
the greater Boston area, the shelter for my hometown (Somerville),
Respond, can be contacted at 617-623-5900. There is high demand for
their services; among these services are concealed safe havens where
your batterer will have a difficult time locating you. Calling ahead
before the next crisis may help get you improved access, and will
certainly help get advise and counseling much more professional than
I can offer myself.
The statistics for batterers are not good. You don't deserve to be in
a situation like this. No one can make the decision for you to leave,
but try to step out of the picture for a moment, detach the emotions,
and ask yourself what the ideal world would be like for you. It probably
wouldn't include many components of this situation at all.
-rich
Mass Storage Engineering OEM D&SG SHR1-3/O13 DTN: 237-2124
Work: [email protected] 508-841-2124
Home: [email protected] URL http://www.pn.com
|
| 69.55 | Get out of there now! | SECOP1::CLARK | | Sat Jun 04 1994 19:49 | 22 |
| 1. Get out as soon as you can.
2. Plan it. Where you will stay, clean out any savings accounts and
take any material things you value if you have the room to carry it and
store it. Take all your clothes and any items that have sentimental
value to yourself.
3. Be grateful you don't have children involved in this.
4. Don't let this emotional blackmail "I'll kill myself if you leave"
crap hinder you. This person will lie constantly to keep you there for
further abuse.
5. Lastly, if the abuser does commit suicide be grateful they didn't
decide to kill you first and if that does come to pass be grateful that
they aren't around to abuse other unsuspecting people. May sound pretty
callous but I have seen so much of this crap over the years, I have
reached the point where I wish all those abusers (spouse/child) WOULD
commit suicide. The world would be a lot better off and there would be
a lot less abused children and spouses living lives of fear and pain.
|
| 69.56 | | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Why not ask why? | Mon Jun 06 1994 10:08 | 20 |
|
re -.1
I agree it would be a "convienence" if all perpetrators of abuse
would do themselves in, but that wouldn't *solve* anything; some
proportion of the abused would eventually come to perpetrate further
abuse. It's well known that there is a high degree of correlation
between abusing and being abused; most abusers were once abused
themselves...they "learned how" somewhere and at some point.
A true solution would be for an abuser to make the necessary effort
to recover from their affliction - and then serve society by teaching other
abusers about their recovery - "how they did it" for themselves. At the
very least, they could simply present themselves to a group of abuse
survivors and allow themselves to be the target of their anger, to help
them in their recovery. But to just kill themselves, that's only a waste.
IMHO,
Joe
|
| 69.57 | | SIETTG::HETRICK | pretty pretenders negligent vendors | Mon Jun 06 1994 21:03 | 20 |
| Joe, my understanding (from a psychologist who specializes in
childhood abuse and in training other psychologists to deal with
childhood abuse) is that abusing and having been abused are uncorrel-
ated: the proportion of abuse victims in the abuser population and in
the general population are identical. The current statistics are that
only about 3% of those who have been abused turn into abusers, just as
in the general population; the rest tend to seek out further abuse,
become co-dependent (just about the same thing), and/or become highly
nurturing.
The conventional wisdom until a few years ago held that abuse
victims grow up to be abusers, largely because abusers, when caught,
reported being abuse victims. Investigations of abusers' reports of
having been abused show them to be almost uniformly false.
Suspecting abuse victims as having a high probability of becoming
abusers simply revictimizes them, blaming them for having been abused.
This is not good -- for anybody.
Brian
|
| 69.58 | | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Why not ask why? | Tue Jun 07 1994 09:55 | 32 |
|
Brian,
>the general population are identical. The current statistics are that
>only about 3% of those who have been abused turn into abusers, just as
>in the general population;
Okay, thanks for enlightening me. So, at what point and why does
someone who has no history of being abused decide they're going to
act out abusively? And after making that entirely conscious decision,
should they simply do us all a favor and "off themselves" as -.3 suggests?
It's understandable that I want this phenonema to simply fit in a
box, and have it all tied up with the pretty bow of a 1st order cause
and effect; "this person is abusive because they themselves were once
abused".
It's unnerving to hear that 3% of the general population -
with no prior history - just via their conditioning in this society,
can "snap" at some point and become an abuser.
In the context of this string, it sounds to me that the perpetrator
is acting out a learned behavior - he got these ideas on how to resolve
a conflict in a relationship from *somewhere*. If not necessarily from
the seeds of experience planted in his own family history, then where?
Did he just decide one day that "Gee, it might be effective if I just
clock her one!"?
What do you think the person you quoted would have to say about these
questions?
Joe
|
| 69.59 | | SIETTG::HETRICK | pretty pretenders negligent vendors | Thu Jun 09 1994 11:01 | 16 |
| Joe, my personal theory is that abusers are simply acting out
implicit societal values -- that other people aren't real. I don't
see too much distinction between the value sets of, e.g., those who
sexually abuse children and those who go out and kill someone for fun.
In either case, they're just treating others as objects. I think the
underlying philosophical disagreement between those who abuse and
those who are horrified at abuse is whether "power over" is accept-
able.
I doubt very much it's a "snap," a break with behavior of the
past. It's just following a belief system to its logical conclusion.
Either you buy into it or you don't.
And if this is right, what are the implications of video games?
Brian
|
| 69.60 | | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Why not ask why? | Thu Jun 09 1994 12:34 | 15 |
|
Brian,
>Joe, my personal theory is that abusers are simply acting out
>implicit societal values -- that other people aren't real.
So it is a matter of "conditioning", you think...
>And if this is right, what are the implications of video games?
You mean games like the runs-on-a-PC "DOOM"?
Joe
Brian
|
| 69.61 | Reply from anonymous author of base note | QUARK::MODERATOR | | Thu Jun 09 1994 14:29 | 48 |
| 'Hello noters,
Thanks once again for everyone's responses, advice, help and care.
It's been 8 weeks now since the incident and I'm pleased to say that
things are going well.
We are still fighting, but he is no longer responding by shouting,
smashing things, threatening suicide or anything else that is
completely unacceptable. The fights are less frequent and result from
basic insecurity on both parts (it's been a really rocky road so far)
and a lesser degree of jealousy and mistrust on his part than before
(both unjustified by me, learned from previous relationships).
We are still waiting on his Psychologists appointment coming through
and when it does we shall both attend, for the first few at least. He
is living under the threat just now that if he so much as breaks
anything in temper or attempts to lift his hand to me then I'm out. A
good thing because he doesn't want to lose me but a bad thing because
you can't live under threats. Hopefully the Psychologist will get to
the core of his behaviour and sort it out from there.
From my own experience I really feel that his behaviour is definitely
learned from his parents. He apparently has never displayed the kind
of temper he did with me, and he changed as soon as we were married
even though we'd lived together before - it was as if I became his
possession as his wife. His father certainly treated and still does
treat his mother that way even though they are divorced, though she
stupidly allows it.
There has been no contact with his Mother although that hurt him ALOT
at first. I would like to see things patched up eventually but not
until she stops the emotional blackmail and guilt that she has been
putting on him particularly for the last five years. Or until he has
detached himself enough and is strong enough to deal with her
appropriately.
As for his father, well he let me into the last remaining confidences
that he had kept from me because he thought I would stop loving him if
I knew, and his father is a horrifically nasty man that I never want
to set eyes on again. I'm only worried how my husband will deal with
his passing away when it inevitably happens if they never ever speak
again.
Thanks all again, and please feel free to comment on my note and/or
offer further advice or opinions as you see fit.'
|
| 69.62 | Reply from anonymous author of base note | QUARK::MODERATOR | | Wed Mar 13 1996 11:28 | 49 |
| It's been almost two years since my original note. My last note
in June 94 was full of hope. I was wrong, there was more violent
attacks which he dismissed because he didn't 'beat me black and
blue' so that made it all OK. I had my clothes ripped off me, my
face scratched, pushed, screamed at etc etc, terrorized sums it up
really. He also abuses him self by taking handfuls of painkillers
(he's usually sick afterwards) and not eating for days etc.
Well we've moved a long way a way from where this all began, to
see if removing him from bad memories and awful parents would
help. It hasn't though he would argue it had because he's seen
violence counsellors and his GP for antidepressants.
Unfortunately for him (fortunately for me - I hope) I've called it
a day. I've had enough, my feelings have changed and I can't stand
being controlled any longer. If he wants to kill himself he will
anyway and there's nothing I can do to stop him at the end of the
day.
He's been sobbing and screaming at me all weekend saying I should
give him another chance, that I haven't given him long enough to
change. He's had 3 years of my life and he doesn't deserve
another 5 minutes. Regardless of his reasoning (which is all
based on 'pity me') I've had 4 days away from home (he harassed me
via the telephone on my first night away, for hours, so I took the
phone off the hook, I got messages put under the door by hotel
staff instead) where he couldn't get in touch with me easily and
the freedom gave me strength I needed to take back my life from
him. There's no way I can live under constant pressure,
harassment, checking up, mistrust etc etc any longer.
So the problem now? I'm scared of the pain of another divorce.
I'm scared he will kill himself or have a nervous breakdown and
I'll carry the blame/guilt even though I know I shouldn't, I'm
scared I'll be broke for years and I'm scared of the uncertainty
this all brings. What I do know is I'm a good person and I
deserve better. I've also got a career and no-one is going to
hold me back.
I suppose I just want reassurance I'm doing the right thing. I'm
feeling a bit guilty for breaking his heart. Anyone else been
there and came through smelling of roses?
In my heart I don't believe he can change, I just held on to hope
for too long (and was too frightened of him too).
Thanks for everyone's comments and support before, please continue
to express your feelings and advice as freely as before - I need
it.
|
| 69.63 | | QUARK::MODERATOR | | Wed Mar 13 1996 11:29 | 3 |
| At the author's request, I have unhidden her earlier contributions.
Steve
|
| 69.64 | | TARKIN::BREWER | | Wed Mar 13 1996 14:26 | 23 |
|
Wow..you have done one of the toughest thing..and you
have put yourself ahead of him. I commend you and admire you.
You are absolutely right (IMO)..you deserve better. MUCH MUCH
better.
I would recommend a support group or private conseling..any kind of
safe place to share and hear from other people who have
had similar experiences. I guarantee there are
women who have been where you are..and who have come out the other
side of it. And..not only do you deserve better than
what you were getting..you deserve ALL THE HELP you can get
from where ever you can find it !!
What you have done already is HUGE stuff...HUGE HUGE HUGE.
Breaking out of the self-blame/blame game is just SO hard.
Bless you..
peace
dotty
|
| 69.65 | | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Your mind is in here and mine is also | Thu Mar 14 1996 12:13 | 17 |
|
What Dotty said.
You're doing the right thing. He'll find someone else to beat, or,
find his own way into recovering from his maladay.
Count on feelings of sorrow arising around the loss of your
marriage, even if the only tangable one is the opportunity for things
to "have worked" somehow. You can get through them; that's what tears
and friends - personal or within a group of some sort - are for.
Thank-you for setting another example that abusers *can* be gotten
away from, from everyone who's not yet sick and tired of it.
Joe
|
| 69.66 | | ASDG::CALL | | Fri Mar 15 1996 11:49 | 37 |
| read my earlier notes again...
.17 and .48
This is from someone who walked in your shoes.
I was married to a man for 9 years who was severly abusive.
I've been divorced from him since 1981. He 'still' from time to time
attacks me. In fact I'm taking him to court mon march 18th for
harrassment. I'm hoping that if things become too painful for him to
attack me that he 'will' stop. I live all the way across the united
states from this man. I didn't feel 'safe' until I moved. Even then he
would still send attacks. Always out of the blue and always severe. He
doesn't care who gets hurt in these attacks. He's never been able to
have a lasting relationship with anyone. His last girlfriend called me
one night out of the blue to ask the question 'did he hit you'. I told
her the truth. I hear he put her in the hospital. He's a sick, sick,
puppy. I was his victim once...not any more.
I know you wanted things to be different. You wanted a real
relationship. Something healthy. I'm glad to hear you are on your way
out. Hopefully there are no children involved. I also hope you have a
counselor or some safe places to go. It may get real bad once you
initiate a divorce. I know it did for me. It was a horrible divorce.
In a way you lose self esteem..it's like you get beat down. It's real
hard to come back up. You will have to work hard. You do deserve
better. I know you will find someone else sometime in the future. For
now take care of yourself. Heal. If you need someone to talk to I'm
here.
Your sorrow will someday turn to joy and happiness. There is still hope
for you to someday have that relationship with someone special. (it
won't be him-he'll go on to do it to the next one-and the next one)
Try to learn..from this...and pls don't jump into another relationship
right away. Take the time to heal...get the negative energy out. Then
move on...
again good luck to you
|
| 69.67 | where does the respect GO?? | KERNEL::WRIGHTD | | Tue Mar 04 1997 13:14 | 14 |
| Does anyone know if/how Anonymous has rebuilt her life since her last
update last March. I have been reading with fear and goosebumps all
over at what women like this have to go through!
It is one of my worst fears to get involved with someone like that -
which i guess is why Im the extreme - I dont get too close to people
at all...
I feel that ALL the advice in here is totally unbiased and based on
common sense and self-worth - if anyone else is reading that is
experiencing similar problems, please take heed.
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| 69.68 | | QUARK::LIONEL | Free advice is worth every cent | Tue Mar 04 1997 15:36 | 4 |
| The author appears to still be at Digital - I sent her mail and asked for
an update.
Steve
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