Conference quark::human_relations

    Here's my own reply ... I prefer NOT to live alone!  Then again, I
    never have TRULY lived alone (always had family, then roommates, etc.)
    
    I do know a fair number of people that PREFER to live alone, and this
    impacts their dating (or lack thereof) and outlook (IMHO) ...
    
    	Jim

    Hi Jim, for me its been both ways. I would have to say that
    it depends largely on who was living with me. There were some
    roomates that convinced me that I would be better off living alone.
    
    Of course now, its better to live with my wife! :-)
    
    /Bob

    Hi Jim,
    
    I've done both. It's hard to say what I like best. There are
    aspects of each that appeal to me. I like the privacy and freedom
    of living alone. I also like the companionship involved with
    living with people I like. I think the ideal situation for me would
    be to live in a house that has a separate apartment for me.
    
    Paula

    
    I've done both.  I'd say that my preference is for living with
    compatible others who are also companions (i.e., family, SO, or 
    good friends).  My second choice would be living alone.  My third 
    choice would be living with someone who is just-a-roommate, where we 
    get along but lead entirely independent lives.  By far the worst 
    alternative of all is living with a incompatible others, or others with
    incompatible living habits.  I speak from experience with all four.
    
    Living alone can be really nice, and a wonderful respite if one has
    just come out of an incompatible living situation.  It's more peaceful,
    and occasionally more lonely.  You get to know yourself a lot better,
    accept yourself more, keep your own hours anywhere in the place, make 
    all your own decisions, leave your dirty dishes in the sink all week 
    if you're busy, and have whatever visitors you want without telling 
    anyone in advance.  Things are where you leave them, and you never
    have to worry about anyone else moving out or disrupting your living
    situation.  You get all the privacy you could want, and never have to 
    wait for the bathroom.  You also get to do all the housework, and get 
    completely petrified when you hear strange noises at night or get that 
    scary "someone else is in the apartment" feeling.  And you have all the 
    responsibility for the bills.  I find that roommates who have lived 
    alone for a while have a more accurate assessment of what "their share" 
    of household tasks is.  They're also a bit more set in their ways.
    
    In some ways I really do prefer living alone -- on days when I've had
    a disagreement with my roommate, for example, or am feeling moody and
    *just* *want* *to* *be* *alone*, I really miss having my own apartment.
    
    As someone once said to me about living alone, "if you can't get along
    with yourself, there's something wrong..."
    
    	Sharon
    
       

    I've never had good luck living with a good friend. You see, in any
    relationship, tensions build. If you don't live with the person, you
    can "cool off" for a while, and still remain friends. But if you live
    with them, then you're always in each others' faces, and resentments
    just build and build.

    I've always had the best luck with people who are somewhat like me, but
    not close friends. In fact, my best experiences have always been with
    complete strangers. Of course, my worst experiences have also been with
    complete strangers.

    I've never lived all by myself, though. I imagine I would go bonkers. You
    have to have SOMEONE to talk to.

    Right now, though, I'm doing the worst thing: living with my parents. 
    Blech! (Though I get free room and board...)

    - Jim

    I'm one of the "loners". I got along fine with my family when I lived
    at home, and with my roommates in college, but I always preferred to
    have space to myself, and now I find that it gets harder and harder to
    imagine sharing living quarters for any length of time. Some of it's
    laziness - I don't have to pick things up if I don't want to, that kind
    of thing - but some of it must just be personal comfort level, because
    in many situations it would be _less_ work if there were somebody else
    around to share it.
    
    About the only time I don't enjoy living alone is when I'm curled up in
    the armchair with a cat or two asleep on my lap, and a craving
    develops for a cup of tea or a bottle of beer or something. If I had a
    roommate, I could beg, plead, or bribe them into fetching it, but as it
    is, I have to choose between unsettling the cats and doing without. ;-)
    
    -b

    
    	Unless I'm sharing living space with an SO/spouse, I prefer
    	to live alone.  I know I could probably afford a better place
    	and maybe have more spending money if I had a roommate but I
    	like my privacy too much.  I have friends who have had no problems
    	with roomies but I also have friends who have some real horror
    	stories.  When my husband and I separated I moved back home for
    	a couple months while I looked for an apartment.  It was two
    	months of hell!  I love my family much more when I don't have
    	to live with them.  =)
    
    	I do get lonely sometimes, especially now around the holidays
    	since I don't have an SO/someone special to share them with.  
    	But my kitties help a little in that department.  They always
    	seem to know when I'm down and try to cheer me up.  =)
    
    	JJ
    

    Out of the last 15 years, I've had about 26 different housemates (in
    various household sizes between 2 and 5) and have lived on my own for
    about 6 of those years during three different intervals.  At the moment
    I have one housemate who is a friend I met a year before we moved in
    (four months ago).
    
    Economic circumstances were such that when I had could afford it, I
    preferred living on my own.  Would I live with any of those housemates
    again?  No, can't think of any I would, unless of course circumstances
    changed a lot.  There are so many annoying little conflicts which come
    up over time.
    
    In my present situation, tension is building up over our differing
    standards of cleanliness; and over responsibility for attending to
    the problems which naturally arise with a 100-year-old house (the
    heating system, for example).  We talk things over just barely often
    enough to find out what the other person's been simmering about for the
    past few weeks.  No boilovers yet.
    
    A couple, together 8 years, that I know bought a big house last year and
    set up separate bedrooms, plus a couple of hobby rooms.  This, I think,
    is the situation I'd prefer, unusual as it may seem in our society.
    Lack of physical and/or emotional space has often been one of the big
    stresses in my intimate relationships, and maybe solving this problem
    once and for all would help me build a more stable long-term
    relationship with someone.
    
    Another couple I know bought a house too, but it wasn't owned equally. 
    This was a problem during their now-ended relationship.  I'm wondering
    how this dynamic will affect my own situation, if I wind up buying my
    own house at some point and then establishing a relationship later.
    (I'm 32 so this is a very likely situation.)
    
    -rich
    Mass Storage Engineering OEM D&SG  SHR1-3/O13    DTN:  237-2124
    Work: [email protected]                      508-841-2124
    Home: [email protected]

    
    	Living with others always presents an opportunity for personal
    growth. Not to say that living alone cant do that as well, it's just
    that in that situation the opportunity isnt presented in the same way.
    
    	In living together, you're in a relationship with the other person,
    like it or not, whether you think so or not. It's sort of de-facto, in
    being together under the same roof.
    	
    	Any relationship, romantic or otherwise, can be used in such a way as 
    to further one's growth into personhood. I can remember some of the
    squabbles I'd get into with past roomates...over stuff like how many
    lights were on in the house, over how loud the TV was...some of my 
    responses just were not very skillful.
    
    	Today I have the tools to handle things like this much more
    skillfully. One of these tools is knowing what the realistic options 
    I have are - things like "accept it, change it, or leave". Another
    is knowing that I cannot "change" another person in how they are.
    Still another is what a realistic limit is around asking someone to
    change something about themselves.
    
    	I've heard it was 3 times, after which you're back to accept it
    or leave as your choices. Sometimes, accepting something like that
    this guy is just never going to "clean the toilet" is hard to do.
    Sometimes leaving is hard to do. What I've found is that if you can
    do one of those options (should it come to that) - it's a lot easier
    than going through the insanity of a fist fight, or letting resentments
    just build to a point where you're not on speaking terms, and, you 
    dont like to "come home" anymore.
    
    	Growth is hard. But there's plent of opportunity for it in a
    relationship - even a roomate situation.
    
    	FWIW,
    
    	Joe

    
>    Another couple I know bought a house too, but it wasn't owned equally. 
>    This was a problem during their now-ended relationship.  I'm wondering
>    how this dynamic will affect my own situation, if I wind up buying my
>    own house at some point and then establishing a relationship later.
    
    This is a tangent, but I'd be interested in hearing if anyone else has 
    any comments on/experience with one of the situations described above.
    It has been my observation that if the house is owned by one partner
    before they meet the other, that it tends to work out okay, whereas if
    one partner buys the house after the two have met, and particularly
    after they're already living together, that it tends to be problematic.
    
    	Sharon
    

I lived alone for 10 years, and really enjoyed it.  Naturally I became very
set in my ways.  When I was 30, I bought my first house, and lived alone in that
house for four years (part of the 10 years I lived alone).  It was alot of work,
but also gave me alot of pride.  Then, my fiance moved in.  I wasn't ready for
him to move in, but he was in an intolerable living situation, so I made the 
offer, and he accepted.  We worked different shifts, which helped, but it was a
very difficult adjustment.  Two years later, I had to move because my plant
closed down, and I found a job 80 miles from home, too far to commute.  Once
again I bought the house, my fiance had no savings.  I feel I'm in an ideal
situation, he's usually gone during the week (he drives a tractor trailer), and 
home on the weekends.  Ocassionally he'll get home one or two nights during the
week too.

My owning the house is not a problem for us.  If any repairs come up or we do 
any redecorating on the house, I pay for it.  If he has any extra money, he'll
contribute.  If he doesn't, I don't care, he's contributing alot every week.  He
helps out with alot of the yard work, household work and cleans when I cook.
I miss him when he's away, and feel alot more secure at night when I hear noises
and he's home (especially after being burglarized twice in my former home).

I have had roommates in the past, I had two awful experiences, 2 o.k., and one
very good, she was a good friend to start with.  Now though, I will only live 
alone or with my S.O.  It's much more comfortable for me.

Laura

 I've lived with roomates/SO's prior to marriage and always enjoyed the
 company of others. Although at times there were some roomies domestic bad
 habits that caused some slight problems. I'm not the Felix Unger type but
 I am pretty well organized and like to keep my home that way. Its hard at
 times living with someone who is not as organized or for that matter is
 completely in dissaray from my point of view. I do realize that its all
 in perspective to what your perception of clean is. Now being a single parent
 for the last 2 1/2 years I've realized that ones children can be a nightmare
 to have as housemates. Although their love and companionship is beyond compare
 their instinctive actions of tossing shoes/socks to the four corners of the
 room imediately after entering it still leaves me puzzled and frustrated.
 I've learned that children left alone would most likely fill every square inch
 of floorspace with clothes and toys from every closet/toy storage area in a 
 matter of minutes. This can really drive you nuts sometimes because they
 carelessly discard clothing/toys helter skelter about your home regardless how
 much you try to encourage tidyness. At some point however persistance may pay off
 and your kids may respect their living environment and the the wishes of their
 parents to keep a semi-uncluttered home."NOT!" I wonder now if my untidy roomies
 were never encouraged to have pride in keeping their domicile neat or were just
 expressing their freedom to be messy due to many years of parental pressure. I
 know one thing I'll have a lot more tolerance for a messy adult roomate after
 raising 2 children. Actually I think I'd just ask the adult roomie to split the
 cost of a housecleaning service and take a rest from domestic chores for a while.

 Now as far as having an adult roomie as well as my children that hasn't been
 truly tried yet. Although I have spent weekends and vacations with friends and
 their children. I guess it could be nice if the potential roomie either had
 children of their own and or were very understanding with childrens sometimes
 unpredictable behavior. I often watch "Full House" with my kids and think of how
 it would be to live in a big home with other families living under the same roof.
 I'm sure it would take some work and plenty of communication but it might be fun
 and certainly wouldn't be boring. "Any Takers??" I know one thing for sure is that
 it can get really lonely sometimes without another adult to share your days
 experiences with but then again sometimes solitude is very comforting too
 especially after a week of single parenting. I guess it will always be a
 Bitter-Sweet situation living alone.

 Neil...

    
    	Re .12 -
    
 >I know one thing for sure is that
 >it can get really lonely sometimes without another adult to share your days
 >experiences with...
    
    	You could get this one met by having some sort of support system
    of adults available to you, perhaps via phone. That wouldnt involve 
    someone sharing your physical quarters, but would provide an outlet for 
    sharing the dailyness of being a single parent with 2 kids - which must 
    be tough at times!
    
    	Surely with all the healthfulness groups around, there's one that
    meets in order to accomodate the issues of single parents with children. 
    Maybe? I dont know...just a thought.
    
    	Joe

    I don't know if this works with kids, but it seems to work with the
    housemate I have.  I like tidy; he likes clean.  There's a world of
    difference between the two.  I yell at him about magazines, papers, and
    dishes left lying about; he yells at me about spots on the floor and
    dust-bunnies growing unchecked in odd corners.  (Actually, we're quite
    civil about this and have never resorted to actual "yelling" yet...)
    
    He solves the tidiness problem by leaving his own bedroom in atrocious
    disarray all the time, and neatening up the common spaces as best he
    can.  This way his instinctual desire to "fill every square inch with
    toys" seems to be satisfied.
    
    I wonder if kids could be satisfied with being given a single cluttered
    area--part of their bedroom, a basement, a hobby room--which they can
    leave messy any time they like, but with a strict prohibition against
    cluttering common space shared with adults and other kids?
    
    I can see that part of the problem is that we all need a "buffer zone"
    to put things we're either currently using or not quite sure where to
    put away.  And each person's definition of "current usage" is
    different--some people think it's no longer in use ten minutes later,
    others claim to still be using an item if it's been glanced at sometime
    in the last month or two.
    
    It seems to me that allocating a physical space to clutter works better
    than defining specific times of the week when everything must be tied
    up throughout the house.
    
    -rich
    Mass Storage Engineering OEM D&SG  SHR1-3/O13    DTN:  237-2124
    Work: [email protected]                      508-841-2124
    Home: [email protected]

 Re.13 

  >  	You could get this one met by having some sort of support system
  >  of adults available to you, perhaps via phone. That wouldnt involve 
  >  someone sharing your physical quarters, but would provide an outlet for 
  >  sharing the dailyness of being a single parent with 2 kids - which must 
  >  be tough at times!
  
 Thanks Joe for your suggestion. It is nice to have friends to talk with
 and support groups do work at times. However there is nothing like having
 a close caring friend/housemate or SO to pass the hours away and do things
 with spontaneously or just hang out and watch a good movie or a game on
 the tube. Now I am surely not without close friends who are always a phone
 call away but its not the same as having a best bud to share a place with.
 I won't have a live in SO with my kids cause "call me old fashioned" but
 I just don't think its appropriate. However a good friend/housemate I feel
 can be a good experience all around.

 Neil....

    re .14, I found it interesting that you made the distinction between
    tidy and clean, since this is something I realized over the years, too. 
    I'm like you.  I'm very tidy.  I can't stand things to be scattered
    about in disarray.  Yet, I can go quite awhile before I notice that the
    toilet needs cleaning, or the rug vacuumed, or that my art glass
    collection needs dusting!  What I can't stand is when someone scatters
    their personal belongings all over the house, or when there are tons of
    dishes and other stuff strewn all about the kitchen counters.  
    
    Lorna  (very neat but lazy about cleaning)
    

    My girlfriend is very untidy, however her bathroom and kitchen must always
    be spotless.

    Me, I'm a slob in every sense of the word.

    - Jim

I have lived alone most of my adult life, but living with someone I 
cared about a lot would be great as long as we could respect each 
other's needs (regarding space, privacy, cleanliness, tidiness, noise, 
visitors, and the rest).  I'm probably a little more independent than 
most due to never having been married and never having had a live-in 
relationship.

Regarding tidiness vs. cleanliness, I guess I'm like the person Jim 
mentioned in that I have a spotless kitchen & bathroom, but I tend to 
"strew."  I'm sure I could be cured of my "strewing," but I'm positive 
I could not be "cured" of my need for cleanliness, and living with 
someone who was insensitive to and/or did not respect this need would
only irritate me (as might my "strewing" irritate a cohabitant who was
sensitive to _that_). 

I don't mind dust, but I do mind situations that could attract vermin, 
such as food crumbs, countertop stains, sticky floors, putrefied cat 
food, spilled sugar, and so on.  I'm sure this sensitivity on my part 
is due to having a mother who was a nurse (and living in a surgically-
clean home when I was a kid), having a terrifying experience with 
roaches during my 2nd year of college, and having my own home which I 
saved and sacrificed for (both to obtain and to improve) and which I 
want to keep in nice shape.

- craig

p.s.  All the above applies only to my place.  I mean, I don't fail to 
frequent someone else's place just because his/her porcelain and 
stainless-steel fixtures fail to meet *my* admittedly-extreme 
standards.  I realize, after all, that my needs in this area are 
atypical.

    I only lived alone once, and I hated weekends... but since then I have
    always had at least lodgers, sometimes an SO as well... even when I was
    engaged we had a lodger too....
    
    I would like to try living with just an SO... the home at weekends only
    would suit me best probably...
    
    for now, I have 3 lodgers and a weekend SO... I need the lodgers to pay
    the mortgage as I have taken unpaid leave to go to university full time
    for a year... but as soon as I am able I intend to get my house back
    for my self.... 
    
    I am very untidy, but basically clean (not a fanatic)... my SO is tidy
    as well as clean... that's why I like him only being home at
    weekends... you should see me tidying like mad on a Thursday night ;-)
    
    however, I think I'd be happier tidying up if it was just the two of
    us... in a house with 3 lodgers you tidy something up and 5 minutes
    later its messy again...
    
    so maybe theres hope for us...
    
    Xtine