Conference quark::human_relations

    re .0, if you're sick of the guy, and don't want to be married to him
    anymore, it's nobody else's business.  Try not to let what your friends
    say bother you.  You don't owe it to them to spend the rest of your
    life with him, and you're the one that would have to, not them. 
    Sometimes people are just too darn nosey, and need to be ignored and/or
    told to take a hike.
    
    And, I certainly can't blame you for being upset with number 3 on your
    list.  I wouldn't be too happy with that, either!!  (Who the heck wants
    to be married to somebody who won't do oral sex?  Not me, that's for
    sure.)
    
    Lorna
      
    
    

Dear why you,
             It must have been a hard decision after all this time. I'm 
separated and going through divorce too. Some of things that have helped include
reading about divorce and relationships, going to counciling and seeking out 
groups. Talking to people is very important for me. All I can do is look at 
myself as soon as I start trying to change another person I am onto a loosing
proposition. I can set boundaries. If they are not respected then there is little
going for the relationship.

	Good luck,
	Peter.

    People probably assume that since you didn't/don't show any pain, there
    wasn't any.  Your husband is being much more open with his, which is
    why he's getting the sympathy for it.  But, that sounds like it's
    consistent with both your styles - yours of being more private about
    your personal life, and his of putting himself and his life first --
    which may mean soliciting support from others if that's what he needs.
    
    Just because people are showing him sympathy, it doesn't mean that
    they're judging you to be the villain, or that you have to spill dirty 
    laundry you'd rather not.  If they pry, just say that you appreciate
    their concern about you, but that you'd rather not discuss it, that 
    you're getting the support you need and you'll be okay.
    
    	Sharon
    

I'm not that great at analyzing these types of situations, especially 
with limited information, but here are some thoughts I had anyway, in 
case they help you.  Beware, however... I could be totally off the 
mark.

   >I have no more pain
   >or sorrow for him, I have been in pain and hurting for 4 years. 
   >Why do I feel like I am being so cold about all this?  

You may feel cold about all this because you may have "begun leaving" 
the relationship many years ago, so the final separation may be just a 
formality for you.  Do you think this might be the case?  He, however,
may have to deal with the emotional pain in a very brief time span.
Perhaps he didn't see it coming, or perhaps he did but never thought
you'd actually want to call it quits. 

   >Now that it is out everyone feels bad for
   >him.  He is crying, and hanging his head and is not eating properly.

Makes sense to me.  It appears he is sharing his pain with others,
while you are not, except for with your two close friends, so perhaps
others do not believe you are in pain, and if you've never discussed
your relationship's problems with others apart from those two close
friends over the years, they probably don't know you *ever* were in
pain.  So, in sum it may appear to everyone that he's the injured
party and you're the "bad guy," appearing never to have given the
marriage enough of a chance.  Quite frankly, it's none of their damn
business. 

A question for you: were the first two years of marriage okay?  Did it 
begin after the birth of your first child?  Perhaps he never was 
prepared to be a father, then lost interest in the marriage when you 
had to begin devoting time to someone other than him?  (But this is 
pure conjecture on my part.)

If the sex was "one-way," do you mean uninteresting?  Mechanical?  He
hates foreplay (i.e. cuddling)?  You were not being selfish.  "He does
nothing unless prompted?"  It's possible he may have been suffering
from depression for a few years, or even for *many* years, before you
guys even met, and these symptoms could be the result.  The marriage
counselor may have recommended he see someone on his own.  Again, I'm 
just guessing here.

   >Why can't anyone care about my pain that I suffered through over the
   >last 4 years? 

Well, *we* do...   :-)

    Do NOT let anyone try to lay a guilt trip on you even if it means
    telling them to shove it. Sure seems like you have it a helluva try.
    You are certainly not alone in having experienced such a situation. 
    If he's whining to his friends and family it is most likely due to 
    realizing what he has lost. You sound perfectly normal to me and will,
    hopefully, someday meet a guy who will appreciate your qualities. 
    You were wise to get out of the situation at this point. That is more
    than enough years of trying. Hope you find some happiness for yourself
    after this experience.

    One of the 'facts' of splitting up is that 'joint' friends often feel
    they have to choose, and some will choose, and some will choose him not
    you... and that hurts...
    
    but at the end of the day you will find out who your true friends
    are... 
    
    
    Xtine

    
    	Re .0 -
    
    	I think .5 has some interesting things to consider...
    
    	When an abusive parent dies, sometimes a child feels nothing
    about it. This is because the child had been grieving his loss all
    along - and by the time of the parent's death, it's been pretty well
    processed and let go of.
    
    	Perhaps something similar has happened for you. Everything you
    listed is a loss for you! Even if you "had no problem" with it,
    who wants to always come last in another person's consideration?
    Who wants to spend their time with a listless individual, content
    to remain essentially "dead" in his way of going about life? No learning,
    change, experimentation, instigation...so much for any "delights"
    in life!
    
    	This stuff is all a *loss* for you. I think you've grieved it
    already and are simply moving on. That's the natural reaction to
    loss - some sort of grief processing, then, after a time, moving on 
    in life. There's nothing wrong with you, insofar as what you're
    doing and "why are you doing this". *Anyone* with a healthy ability
    to handle grief would be doing the same thing; if not in the same
    timeframe as you, they'd be doing it eventually.
    
    	It comes down to the three choices; Accept it, Change it, or
    Leave. Sounds like you've simply chosen "Leave", as it's unacceptable
    to you and you cant change him. 
    
    	Perhaps the pain of losing you will be bad enough for him to
    decide he's going to do something about himself. His anomalies of
    character had their origins somewhere; maybe he'll choose to work
    on that some with a professional.
    
    	Maybe it wont be - and he'll choose to just go on living "simply"
    or whatever. Just think, if that happens, what a good choice you've
    made for yourself! I'm sure either way things will be okay for you.
    
    	Joe

    JUPITR::KAGNO
      I never had a problem with him to better himself, he always wanted not
      to struggle on a day to day basis, to me the only way of doing this was
      to either better oneself or better their career path.  Also, as we grow
      in life, people grow as so do our lives and careers.  I never thought
      less of him or made him feel worthless.

      We always talked about our problems openly, our home environment was 
      hardly one to not want to be in.  I always made it a happy home for
      the children and him.  So, him not wanting to be around is really not
      the case here.  I believe that when the children came he had a hard
      time with the responsibilities he had to face.

    VAXWRK::STHILAIRE
      You are a beautiful person, don't let anyone tell you anything 
      different!

    WECROW::HILL
      I hope your situation gets better with time.

    GOLLY::SWALKER
      You make alot of sense, thanks alot!

    VICKI::CRAIG
      Our first two years of marriage was okay, but the main issues were
      still there #1 but without the children, #2, #3 and #4.  I guess I 
      thought love was alot of sacrifices (I guess I was wrong).

      Sex being "one-way"....I believe that you give love because you feel
      love.   He only wanted to make love when he felt he wanted to, not
      when I wanted to.  I felt that giving was better than receiving, but
      when I gave all the time it took its toll. 

      Prompted....he needs a push more often than he should to intialize 
      just about anything that does not pertain to his personal needs/wants
      or anything that does not have to do with him.  I have to do most of
      the pushing,  I wanted him to initiate sometimes too.

      Thanks for being here for me, it helps tremendously!

     MYOSPY::CLARK
      Words I should live by!  Thanks alot for all your support!

     YUPPY::CARTER
      Yes, friends will be friends.....there should be no sides.

 Dear Why Me,
 
I can sympathsize with your feelings and anger at your husband for not
fulfilling all your expectations of him. We are all human and are by
nature are always striving for happiness in our lives. When our life
becomes stressful we always look for a person to blame for our own
lack of happiness.
     
Raising a family is a very difficult task and there are a lot of problems
associated with marriage that stem from the childrens needs always being
met first. You are the one who's spent all the time taking care of your
childrens needs and putting your own needs aside. You've even been taking
care of your husbands needs and he has not returned the favors. You find
that your spouse is not participating as much as you feel he should around
the home. You are overburdened with the job of being homemaker, wife and
mother as well as working yourself. You're sick and tired of it and feel 
like a slave to him even in the bedroom. You now feel that there is no love
left in your heart for him for doing this to you and you want him to suffer
now. What better way to make him suffer than to divorce the bastard and make
him pay.
            
If the above sounds like what you're feeling its totally normal. This doesn't
mean that you have to sacrifice your marriage though. It means that the two
of you have no idea whats going on in each others lives due to lack of 
understanding. You are another victim of lack of communication between the
sexes.
     
Men and Woman are raised very differently in our society and hence a lot of
problems arise after marriage. Men are taught as children to be strong and
show no emotion else it is a sign of weakness. Women on the other hand are
taught to be caring and loving and nurturing. In most families the boys were
helping dad mow the lawn and take out the trash where the girls were helping
with the laundry and sweeping the floors. You can just look at childrens
toys to see the differences in how boys and girls are influenced at a very
young age. Advertising for boys shows trucks, guns, mutant reptiles figurines.
Ads for girls show dolls which cry, wet, vomit etc or little homemaker play sets
with appliances like ironing boards and vaccum cleaners. The point I'm trying
to make here is neither of you really understand the difference in how each
other think. There is a really good book which talks about this and maybe can
help you and your husband to see the other side the book is Intimate Strangers
by Lilian Rubin and can be found at most bookstores.
              

 Now to address your reasons for leaving
 
>    1. His "life" in all aspects came before the children or me.  I had no
>       problem with me coming last, but not the children.
   
Take a look back at your father or his and see if there are some similarities.
We are all victims of our past and usually mimic in some ways the lives of our
parents.

>       Since I asked him to leave, he has been a much better father. The
>       children are doing just fine by the way.  They are enjoying their
>       father more now than ever before.....a plus!

This is a perception which I think is based solely on time they are now
spending with there dad alone. If you remained married you could set up
times with daddy alone also. As far as your children doing just fine that
is also your perception and you infact may overlook problems for the sake
of convincing yourself that the children will survive divorce unscaved. This
is not going to happen and the children will be hurt by the marrital breakup
no matter what you do. There is an excellent book called "A Case Against Divorce"
which I'd highly recomend that you read before you persue your divorce. You'll
get a lot of misconceptions cleared up on divorce and single mothers.
         

>   2. He is very "simple".  Life just can't get any better than this to him.
>      He has no desire to "better" himself, on a personal level or career
>      level.
    
Why is this a problem to you? You have the opportunity to better yourself
if you'd like but nobody should expect someone to live up to their expectations
of them for that is an impossible and selfdefeating task.
   
>   3. He would not perform oral foreplay and does not like to "make-out"  I
>      excepted this problem, thinking I was being selfish.  Our lovemaking
>      became one way, his way.
   
Maybe he just doesn't know what you really want or like. This seems to be more
of a communication problem than anything else. Most couples have no clue about
how to discuss sex and their needs. Anyone can be taught to be a good lover if
they have a good teacher. Just because he is a man doesn't automatically mean
he knows what to do to please you. Once again he was probably lead to believe
that what he is doing is fine by other men or through X-rated movies geared
towards men. Once again there are books on this subject too!
       
>   4. He does no chores, unless asked.  He does nothing unless prompted.

Once again this could be a product of his upbringing whereby mommy was
always there to pick up after him. This behavior can also be changed by
listing the chores and geting him into a routine.

>   5. He refused to go to a marriage counselor, I have been trying to get 
>      him to go for the last 4 years.
  
It is a very common problem with men not seeking help for problems in their
lives. Once again it stems from men being taught to fend for themselves and
not to discuss their problems with others. I'll bet he doesn't ask for
directions when lost either. If you are seeing a counselor thats good just
be sure you're not doing it to justify your divorce but rather to get help
in communicating with your husband and dealing with your anger. Another good
book is "The Dance of Anger" which deals with womens deep rooted anger and
how to deal with it.

I'm sure you feel that there is no hope for your marriage and that the best
thing for you is out. Just be sure that you fully understand all aspects of
life after divorce and realize that the next man in your life may not be
much different than your husband after the excitement of romance passes. In
fact second marriages fail more than 80% of the time and I would suspect its
even greater where blending families is involved. Single parent life is
also much more difficult than dual parenting and a lot more stressful for
parent and child. Also in most cases the husband remarries sooner than the
wife after divorce and usually maintains a higher standard of living and
becomes more successful. 
      
Sorry this was so long but I hate seeing people opt for divorce who may still
have a chance of changing their lives and saving their marriages. Feel free
to write offline if you'd like to talk more or get a reading list of other
books on the various topics mentioned.
    
Neil...
 

 
 
 

    Hey Neil,
    
    What a screen full.  I am a single father of two.  I am raising them my
    self.  I wanted to go to a counsoler but she resisted.  She did go
    twice - once with me to talk out our issues and once by herself to tell
    him that she didn't need this!  We her in network land really don't
    know all of the facts as "she" knows them.  I'm sure that there are a
    lot of little important pieces that are missing.
    
    Anyway,  my comments are these:  No one will ever no what you have been
    through.  Don't let them make you feel the bad guy.  To me it sounds
    like you husband knows how to get the right emotion from whomever he's
    talking to - to get them on his side.  Think about it.  What and how
    would you say somthing to your friends.  If you truly believe what you
    believe then go forward.  We have a lot in common and I wished that I
    would have read this sooner.  I also accepted things that she would not
    do (against my better judgement do to being in love).  Now I wont.  I
    can't.  It's been 18 months since she moved out and 5 months since the
    divorce became final.  I find that it's harder then hell raising two
    girls by myself.  Is it worth it?  Right now I believe yes.  I'll know
    for sure as I watch my girls get older.
    
    You have to ask yourself a lot of questions but I think the important
    ones are like:  Am I happier when he's here or not?  Are the kids
    better of with him here are not?  Will I be a better person (able to
    support my kids), with him here or not? 
    
    It's not easy either way you go.  My favorite phrase for the longest
    time was "it depends on how much you want to put up with"
    
    What do you want to put up with?  
    
    I he doesn't want to help make it better, are you ready to accept
    status quo?
    
    Dave

 Dave,

 I am also a single parent of two daughters. Although their mother and I
 share physical custody. Not because I neccessarily feel that this is the
 best situation for me financially or emotionaly but we both feel it is in
 our daughters best interest that both parents share equaly in raising our
 children.

 In my long winded reply .12 the intent was to stress the point of communication
 and understanding. I personally believe that most marriages can be saved but
 it takes cooperation of both spouses. However if one spouse wants out and is
 convinced that divorce is their only alternative "then so be it!". It isn't
 worth the time and effort trying to convince a person who truly feels that their
 life will be better outside of marriage no matter how many statistics or case
 studies you show them. As our marriage counselor said to me don't waste your
 time trying to save your marriage when your spouse does not. You'll be better
 off spending your time trying to get on with your life and taking good care of
 your children. It took a while but I finally realized what the counselor was
 saying was true.

 Neil...

    Last December I broke up with a lover of 2-1/2 years.  At the time I
    felt horribly guilty, and fretted that my friends would not respect
    this decision.
    
    My friends have stood by me, I'm happy to say, and things have gotten
    better.  After you've gone through this difficult time, I'm sure you'll
    find support from a number of wonderful people around you.
    
    -rich
    Mass Storage Engineering OEM D&SG  SHR3-1/W7     DTN:  237-2124
    Work: [email protected]                      508-841-2124
    Home: [email protected]

Dear "Why me",

    >He moved out about 2 months ago with out any reservations.
    >He understands that I have tried more than 100%.  So here I go.....

If he moved out without any reservations, and understands you tried more than
100%, why worry about what others say?  You can't try more than that, and 
staying in a relationship you are not happy in is not a good way to live.

   

   > 1. His "life" in all aspects came before the children or me.  I had no
   >    problem with me coming last, but not the children.  

I would have a definite problem with coming last, especially if I were bending
over backwards to make the realtionship successful.  Don't let yourself be
a doormat for anyone.  You deserve consideration and appreciation.
    
  >  2. He is very "simple".  Life just can't get any better than this to him.
  >     He has no desire to "better" himself, on a personal level or career
  >     level.
   
This is his option, although I can empathize with your feelings.  We can't
get someone to want to "better" themselves when they don't want to.  This
would only cause hostility.  Some people want alot (and I think that's fine),
and some don't (I think this is also fine).  Opposites don't always attract!!

> 3. He would not perform oral foreplay and does not like to "make-out"  I
>       excepted this problem, thinking I was being selfish.  Our lovemaking
>       became one way, his way.
 
This doesn't necessarily sound like a communication problem to me, like a
previous noter said. Since you say you talked about all the issues, I
 assume you discussed this problem too. His unwillingless to please me would be
a big consideration for me.  There has to be give and take in a sexual 
relationship.  If both partners really love each other, they should want to
fulfill the other. I wouldn't last too long with someone with his attitude.

>   4. He does no chores, unless asked.  He does nothing unless prompted.
 
This sounds very familiar, and I know how frustrating this can be.  One way
to overcome it is to agree on areas of responsibility, and also letting him
know that you don't want to have to ask him to do every little thing that needs
to be done, and that you'd really like him to do what he sees needs to be done!
This is a hard one to accomplish.

>   5. He refused to go to a marriage counselor, I have been trying to get 
       him to go for the last 4 years.

It doesn't sounds as if he did a blessed thing to make it work.  I don't
believe as some others seem to that staying married is always the best
thing to do, especially if one person is toatally self centered and ungiving.
From what you have told us, it sounds to me like you did the right thing to
get away from this guy.  Hopefully now you'll have a chance to be happy
and have an enjoyable life.

Best of luck to you!

Hugs,

Laura

  

    Re: .2
    
    I have a particular fondness for oral sex myself, but I'd phrase it
    this way:  in a sexual relationship, what matters most to me is the
    give and take.  I'm less concerned about the actual physical activities
    or frequency of relations than about the overall attitude.
    
    -rich
    Mass Storage Engineering OEM D&SG  SHR3-1/W7     DTN:  237-2124
    Work: [email protected]                      508-841-2124
    Home: [email protected]

    Regarding note .12,
    
    I agree.  When we came out of our first session there were two agendas.
    Mine was to keep the marriage together and hers was to leave - period.  
    
    When that fatefull conversation that ended it all started with 
    (besides the un-nerving "We need to talk")  she said that she didn't 
    want the responsibilities of marriage anymore.
    
    That said it all and I'll never forget it.
    
    Dave

RE: .0

I have just a few random thoughts while reading this string, so I'm just going 
to throw them out here...

I feel a lot of sorrow that so many women (and many men as well) are "taught"
that in order to have healthy, happy long-term committed relationships, that we
need to make great sacrifices by compromising qualities and values that we 
hold dear to ourselves.  To the basenoter, I just want to say how truly 
sad I am that you are ending a marriage which includes children because *they*
will suffer, but at the same time I feel good about the fact that you've 
identified and decided to stand firm in the qualities you can't compromise
for a relationship.

I am so glad that I haven't been married yet because at 28, I feel that just
now am really able to pinpoint what qualities and values I cannot compromise
in a relationship...and those that I can for the good the relationship.  If I 
had gotten married a few years ago, it would have surely failed.....now I know
what I want, and I know how to recognize it in potential partners.  When I 
make that commitment to marriage, it will be forever (and it will not be easy).

I just want to quote a few things that I've really found to be true in my 
experiences in preparing myself to be in a long-term committed relationship.
When I think about them, or reflect back on them, it helps to put things into
their proper perspective sometimes.  (warning, they are generalizations...but
they work for me, and for some others). Fwiw....

	-  Relationship/Family are not the the highest priority for most men	

	-  If a woman expects him to put them first, she WILL be disappointed
	   (relationship is usually last after buddies and toys)

	-  Support from others does not always come in the package you want it
	   to.  Support is not about feeling comfortable, it's about getting
	   the tools you need to do your job.

	-  Compromise the qualities you can, and stand by those that you can't.

	-  Be SURE before you make a commitment, the definition of commitment
	   is "an unalterable decision"

	-  When you make a commitment, you do not have the option to break it

	-  If you, as a woman, want a strong Relationship, it is 100% your
	   responsibility to make sure it happens

	-  Trust yourself.

I don't know why I threw these out here, just the basenote and some of the 
replies reminded me of these quotes.  Take what you want and leave the rest.

To the basenoter, I wish you well on your journey, and I encourage you to 
really know EXACTLY what you want, then get it.  

kath

    Kath,


>I am so glad that I haven't been married yet because at 28, I feel that just
>now am really able to pinpoint what qualities and values I cannot compromise
>in a relationship...and those that I can for the good the relationship.  If I 
>had gotten married a few years ago, it would have surely failed.....now I know
>what I want, and I know how to recognize it in potential partners.  When I 
>make that commitment to marriage, it will be forever (and it will not be easy).


    	I agree, I think if I'd married before 25 it wouldn't have worked
    (unless I got *really* lucky in multiple dimensions), and if it had
    happened between 25-28 it's hard to say.  It's only in the past couple
    of years I felt like I really knew who I was, what was important to me
    and what I really wanted.


    	Now Kath, even though you mentioned those were generalizations you
    *knew* someone would likely have something to say about them!  So I
    won't disappoint you.  ;-)


>	-  Relationship/Family are not the the highest priority for most men	


    	I know this is true for some men, but because it's true for some
    doesn't make it true for all.  I don't fit this mold and I know of lots
    of others like me.  I think this was more true in years gone by, when
    men had to worry first about the job so the family could live.  With
    more women entering the work force this is changing.  Just as women are
    reexamining their roles, the same is true of men.  I for one would be
    tickled pink if I married someone who wanted to keep her career going,
    but yet wanted a family.  This would allow me to spend lots of time at
    home with the kids, and also spend time writing.


>	-  If a woman expects him to put them first, she WILL be disappointed
>	   (relationship is usually last after buddies and toys)


    	Hmm, this has a bit of a cynical ring to it.  I think it would be
    more appropriate to say, "She *might* be disappointed."  The argument
    here follows logically from my discussion above.


>	-  Support from others does not always come in the package you want it
>	   to.  Support is not about feeling comfortable, it's about getting
>	   the tools you need to do your job.


    	What kind of support are you talking about here?  I'd be interested
    to hear more.


>	-  Compromise the qualities you can, and stand by those that you can't.


    	Yes!  I told a friend of mine awhile back the exact same thing; I
    think this is one of the most important things you have to know about
    yourself before you can engage in a successful relationship.


>	-  If you, as a woman, want a strong Relationship, it is 100% your
>	   responsibility to make sure it happens


    	Hmm, maybe I'm misreading this but I don't think it's the woman's
    responsibility to make a relationship work.  I think it's the demesne
    of *both* people to make it happen; no one person can do it alone.  I
    know, I've tried.



    Brian

Hi Brian:

I just KNEW someone would have to question my generalizations!

>>>	-  Relationship/Family are not the the highest priority for most men
>
>    I know this is true for some men, but because it's true for some
>    doesn't make it true for all.  I don't fit this mold and I know of lots
>    of others like me.  I think this was more true in years gone by, when
>    men had to worry first about the job so the family could live.  With
>    more women entering the work force this is changing.  Just as women are
>    reexamining their roles, the same is true of men.  I for one would be
>    tickled pink if I married someone who wanted to keep her career going,
>    but yet wanted a family.  This would allow me to spend lots of time at
>    home with the kids, and also spend time writing.


Yes, agreed...not for "all" men.  I've done a personal survey on this, though,
and my findings HAVE shown that Career is #1 for most men.  Of the men I've 
asked (and it's not only me, it's been done in other surveys as well), almost
all have gauged the success of their lives on the how successful they are in 
their career (whatever they have chosen).  When many have the choice between
working a few extra hours to gain recognition on a regular basis, they will
choose it over spending that time with the family.

Many women I know want to be "treated like a queen" and to "know they are 
#1" to the man they are in relationship with.  These women are also the ones
wanting men to be successful financially and in a stable job.  The two just
don't mix very well, and the woman is MOST likely going to be disappointed.
Which, of course, gets to the next point....

>>>	-  If a woman expects him to put them first, she WILL be disappointed
>>>	   (relationship is usually last after buddies and toys)

I wouldn't call myself necessarily "cynical" but rather "realistic."  For 
me, I want a relationship with a man who has great drive and ambition in 
WHATEVER he chooses to do in his life....(not someone who is content being
where he is now).  I cannot expect that man to put me #1 in his life...because
if he does, it won't be honoring his ambition.  So, I accept that relationship
is at a lower position in his life.  Assuming this sort of man would place
me first would just set me up for disappointment quite often....why set myself
up?  Why not just be "realistic" about where I fall in his life and be 
happy I have an ambitious man?! (which I don't right now! ;-) )


>>>	-  Support from others does not always come in the package you want it
>>>	   to.  Support is not about feeling comfortable, it's about getting
>>>	   the tools you need to do your job.
>
>    	What kind of support are you talking about here?  I'd be interested
>    to hear more.

I'm talking about the difference between "seeking validation" and "seeking
support."  When I trust a friend/professional/whoever enough to seek support
from them, I am trusting them to be honest with me, to tell me my options,
to tell me when I'm doing something wrong, to tell me when I'm doing something
right, etc.  Many, many times when people ask for support and they hear 
something they don't WANT to hear, they stomp off angry.  And that's what
I mean by support not always being comfortable, or coming in the package that
you want it to.  

For example, if I'm being abnoxious or selfish or arrogant about something,
I EXPECT people I ask for support to TELL me that.  And it's my responsibility
to take that support to heart -- not get angry and stomp off.

>>>	-  If you, as a woman, want a strong Relationship, it is 100% your
>>>	   responsibility to make sure it happens
>
>    	Hmm, maybe I'm misreading this but I don't think it's the woman's
>    responsibility to make a relationship work.  I think it's the demesne
>    of *both* people to make it happen; no one person can do it alone.  I
>    know, I've tried.

Yes, it takes two people for a relationship.   That not what I said, though.
I said, if a woman wants a strong Relationship, she must treat that relationship
as if she is 100% responsible for making sure it's a strong Relationship.  
What I mean by that is, if she wants it, she must create it....she cannot
say "oh, that's his job" or "why didn't you do THAT for me", etc.  It's 
a MINDSET, not an action.....when we accept 100% responsibility for something,
we tend to work harder at it, we tend to be more willing to compromise
when necessary and if we put our BEST (100%) effort into it, we'll get 
that in return.

I can pretty much guarentee when I put only a 50% effort into a relationship,
I will only get a 50% response back.....



kath

    Hi Kath,


>Yes, agreed...not for "all" men.  I've done a personal survey on this, though,
>and my findings HAVE shown that Career is #1 for most men.  Of the men I've 
>asked (and it's not only me, it's been done in other surveys as well), almost
>all have gauged the success of their lives on the how successful they are in 
>their career (whatever they have chosen).  When many have the choice between
>working a few extra hours to gain recognition on a regular basis, they will
>choose it over spending that time with the family.


    	Umm, not to nit-pick but unless you've polled at least a thousand
    men I think it would be more appropriate to say, "for most men I've
    asked".  Less than a thousand is probably not statistically
    significant, and therefore much more prone to error.  (Isn't 1,000
    usually about how many they poll?  I'm not sure.)


    	What you describe above was certainly the norm 20-30 years ago.  I
    know the trend has been changing, but I couldn't say where it's at
    right now.


>Many women I know want to be "treated like a queen" and to "know they are 
>#1" to the man they are in relationship with.  These women are also the ones
>wanting men to be successful financially and in a stable job.  The two just
>don't mix very well, and the woman is MOST likely going to be disappointed.
>Which, of course, gets to the next point....


    	It's true that not both things can't be #1, but I'm a little
    unclear as to why they both can't be important to the point that both
    areas are satisfied.  I think there are a number of areas in my life
    that are important in order for me to be balanced.  I certainly
    wouldn't want to be with someone who was fanatical about any one thing.


>I wouldn't call myself necessarily "cynical" but rather "realistic."  For 
>me, I want a relationship with a man who has great drive and ambition in 
>WHATEVER he chooses to do in his life....(not someone who is content being
>where he is now).  I cannot expect that man to put me #1 in his life...because
>if he does, it won't be honoring his ambition.  So, I accept that relationship
>is at a lower position in his life.  Assuming this sort of man would place
>me first would just set me up for disappointment quite often....why set myself
>up?  Why not just be "realistic" about where I fall in his life and be 
>happy I have an ambitious man?! (which I don't right now! ;-) )


    	I guess I'm still confused, because I think it's entirely possible
    to have "great drive and ambition" and yet put family #1.  Because
    that's how I see it.  However, I do not rate my success by what people
    at work say or recognize, I rate it by *me*.  A good example of this
    was my last group, where no matter what I did I was never really
    recognized for my contributions.  Yet I knew I was doing very well.  If
    I had based my morale or my self-worth on what folks at work said, I'd
    be an emotional wreck.  As it was, I figured out what was going on and
    shrugged it off (and got the heck out of there).  Also, I look at
    people I know who worked like crazy, produced and so forth and yet have
    still been laid off; for myself, if I were to put work as #1 to the
    point that it were my gauge for self-worth, it would be setting myself
    up for the big fall.  Plus I always think of that quote from Thoreau:
    "I did not want to come to the end of my life and realize I had not
    really *lived*."  There's so much more to life than work.


    	I guess "success" for me means a lot of things, only one of which
    do I rate slightly more important:  always striving to be a better
    person.  I rate this slightly more important because I think my first
    duty is to myself, and because paying more attention to this will help
    all the other areas of my life.  After that I would probaby put
    relationships, and after that work.  But do not think that because it's
    not #1 or #2 that it's not important to me; I take a lot of pride in
    what I do.


>I'm talking about the difference between "seeking validation" and "seeking
>support."  When I trust a friend/professional/whoever enough to seek support
>from them, I am trusting them to be honest with me, to tell me my options,
>to tell me when I'm doing something wrong, to tell me when I'm doing something
>right, etc.  Many, many times when people ask for support and they hear 
>something they don't WANT to hear, they stomp off angry.  And that's what
>I mean by support not always being comfortable, or coming in the package that
>you want it to.  


    	Ahh, okay, now I understand.  And you're right, I agree with you
    except for one small caveat:  I only tell them the truth if I think
    they're ready to hear it.  There's no point in telling someone the
    truth if it's just going to make them more crazy and upset.  Of course
    I wouldn't lie about it, I'd just omit it until such time as I felt
    they could handle it.


>For example, if I'm being abnoxious or selfish or arrogant about something,
>I EXPECT people I ask for support to TELL me that.  And it's my responsibility
>to take that support to heart -- not get angry and stomp off.


    	True.


>Yes, it takes two people for a relationship.   That not what I said, though.
>I said, if a woman wants a strong Relationship, she must treat that relationship
>as if she is 100% responsible for making sure it's a strong Relationship.  
>What I mean by that is, if she wants it, she must create it....she cannot
>say "oh, that's his job" or "why didn't you do THAT for me", etc.  It's 
>a MINDSET, not an action.....when we accept 100% responsibility for something,
>we tend to work harder at it, we tend to be more willing to compromise
>when necessary and if we put our BEST (100%) effort into it, we'll get 
>that in return.

>I can pretty much guarentee when I put only a 50% effort into a relationship,
>I will only get a 50% response back.....


    	Aha!  Here we go, your last sentence gets to the heart of the
    matter I think:  there's a big difference between being 100% committed
    to a relationship and 100% responsible.  I was reacting to your choice
    of words (may sound nit-picky, but I think you'll agree that there's a
    big difference here).  I agree totally that you have to be 100%
    committed in order for it to work, but I don't think any one person can
    be 100% responsible.  That's taking responsibility for what the other
    person says, does, thinks, doesn't say, doesn't do, and doesn't think.
    I for one would never accept that responsibility.


    	All in all, I think for the most part we were agreeing semantically
    but disagreeing syntactically.  Except of course for the part about not
    being able to put family #1 and still be ambitious.  But that's okay --
    I don't expect everyone to agree with my point of view; in fact, I
    don't expect ANYone to agree with me.  ;-)


    Brian

RE: .last (Brian)

It sounds like we agree, I think we might just be coming from different 
directions at the same thing...

....I agree that putting family #1 does not mean that you can't be ambitious.
"Ranking" our choices in life really doesn't mean that #2 or #3 or whatever
is that much LESS serious to us than #1.  

No choice is wrong, and no choice is "bad."  I know for me, I just need to 
know what my potential partner's choices are and if I can accept my 
position in that list.

kath

>No choice is wrong, and no choice is "bad."  I know for me, I just need to 
>know what my potential partner's choices are and if I can accept my 
>position in that list.


    	And here we have the crux of the WHOLE shebang (restated slightly):

    	1.  Knowing what YOU want.
    	2.  Finding out what your partner wants.
    	3.  Deciding if #1 and #2 are compatible, and if not, can a
            compromise satisfactory to both parties be made?


    	Seems simple, doesn't it?  ;-)



    Brian