Conference quark::human_relations

    Sorry to hear about your situation--it'll be bad for a while, and it'll
    take some time to accept this loss.
    
    Time heals.  You'll move on and find better things in life soon!
    
    -rich
    Mass Storage Engineering OEM D&SG  SHR3-1/W7     DTN:  237-2124
    [email protected]                            508-841-2124

   
Sometimes, closing the door on the whole relationship for a while, gives you
the time necessary to get over the most painful part of the withdrawal.

No bread is better than � a loaf when eating it makes you sick. When your
tolerance has increased, you can try the � a loaf again, one piece at a time.

If you need to be "good" for you, then do it. If you think being "good"
will reverse the situation, you're going to prolong the agony. The relation-
ship can never again be what it was.

Stay busy, stay involved with people, and give yourself lotsa time.

Best to you

/Bob

    Ouch.  That's definitely not an easy situation, and I feel for you.
    
    The easiest way to cope is, IMHO, *not* to stand by and watch, at least
    for a while.  Standing by will only keep your wounds open, and keep you
    from rebuilding the life that you'd built around this other person.
    In my experience, the closer you were beforehand, or the more painful
    it is for you breaking up, the more both of you need space now.
    
    With distance the other person may also realize that what you can't give
    isn't nearly as important as what you can.  If you're in the picture
    as you are now, they'll never have the chance to take a good, hard look
    at what they really want, and this will show up negatively in their other
    relationships as well.  After some time apart, you'll be in a better 
    position to be friends, as well as to have healthy and fulfilling
    relationships with others.
    
    It sounds as if you're wanting the other person to have their cake and
    eat it too (feelings of guilt?).  Unfortunately, this can all too
    easily translate to letting them have their cake and eat yours.  Don't
    be satisfied with just their leftover crumbs; it's not fair, and you
    deserve far more than that.
    
    	Sharon
    

    Time, Love and Tenderness...........time heals all wounds.
    
    Hugs!
    
    Lynne

Re: .4

Yes, but it often leaves a scar.

		Steve

    re .0, I've been through it and survived.  I'm not sure the same things
    work for everyone, though.
    
    Over 5 1/2 yrs. ago a guy I was very much in love with, and had lived
    with for 2 1/2 yrs., (and had left my over 12 yr. marriage for), came
    home from work one day and told me he didn't love me anymore, and that
    he was in love with a woman at work.  I still loved him, and I was
    devastated.  It's just about the worst emotional pain I've ever been
    through.  I think only losing my parents was worse.  I tried to talk to
    him calmly, and tell him I still loved him.  He told me he didn't love
    me, that he loved her.  The pain was almost unbearable.  I remember
    calling one of my closest girlfriends, and crying, and calling my
    mother and crying.  Most people told me he wasn't worth it, but that
    didn't really matter because to *me* he was worth it.
    
    I didn't know what I was going to do.  Then, I remembered a conversation
    from a TV show that I had seen where a man was talking to his daughter,
    about her mother, who had abandoned them both.  He was telling her that
    it was important to remember that *they* hadn't done anything, that the
    mother had made her decision, and left, and that there was nothing they
    could do about that.  They couldn't control what another person wanted
    to do with their life.   I realized there was  nothing I could do.  I
    had walked right up to a brick wall and there was no way through.  I
    could stand there beating my head against the wall, or I could turn
    around and walk away.  I forced myself to stop loving this person, and
    I succeeded.  It wasn't easy and it hurt, but I stopped loving him.  I
    forced myself to stop thinking about all the fun I had with him, and
    how much I enjoyed his company, and I just walked away from the brick
    wall.  I was determined that this person was not going to make me have
    an unhappy life.  I cried and stamped my feet and screamed and
    complained to friends, but I got over it.  
    
    It, also, helped that a month after he broke-up with me, I met two men
    that I dated off and on for 5 yrs.  It always helps to remember that
    there are a lot of other people in the world besides the one I might be
    obsessed with at the time.  
    
    I hadn't seen or heard from him for over 5 yrs., and last month, I ran
    into him at an antique show.  He saw me walking across a field and
    called me.  When I turned around and saw him, I couldn't believe my
    eyes.  I felt like I'd seen a ghost.  In the intervening years I had
    sort've come to think of him as a myth, instead of a real person, and
    all of a sudden, there he was standing in front of me.  Oddly enough,
    my first feeling was that I was glad to see him again.  He said he'd
    like to be friends, and I had lunch with him and his current SO (not
    the woman he left me for, btw), and we had a good time.  They seem like
    people I want to be friends with.  In fact, I really like his
    girlfriend a lot.  We have a lot of common interests and viewpoints.  I
    think it makes it easier that I like his girlfriend, too.  I visited
    them for a weekend after that, and had a good time.  I was happy to
    realize that I wasn't really attracted to him anymore, but that I still
    enjoyed his company as a person.  I think he'll make a better friend,
    for me, than he did boyfriend.  So, yeah, time does make a difference.
    
    Lorna
    

Re: -1
>    I hadn't seen or heard from him for over 5 yrs., and last month, I ran
>    into him at an antique show. ... I felt like I'd seen a ghost.
>    ... Oddly enough, my first feeling was that I was glad to see him again.
    
    Wow, this blows my mind:  you and I just had the same experience!  On
    Saturday night, five days ago, I ran into the ex I broke up with six
    years ago September.  And it actually felt good, even though the
    breakup was very bitter way back when!  Maybe I'll even call, and make
    friends, now that so much time has gone by.
    
    -rich
    Mass Storage Engineering OEM D&SG  SHR3-1/W7     DTN:  237-2124
    [email protected]                            508-841-2124

    	RE .0 -
    
    	I kinda get the sense that this person wants to have their cake
    and eat it too, also.
    
    	The breakup sounds like their decision, which out of your love
    for them, you're willing to support. It's as if you believe they
    "ought" to have whatever it is you're not mentioning, that you cannot 
    give.
    
    	Well, what about *you*? What do you think you ought to have as
    well? All the pain and suffering I read you're going though? All
    the future pain and suffering, should you end up seeing them ultimately
    find what you feel the two of you could have had?
    
    	I'd think not! The way you close the door is by deciding for
    yourself that you're just not going to go through that kind of pain.
    That you're unwilling to subject yourself to a _prolonged_ grief over
    the loss of your relationship - because the other person "wants
    to be friends" or whatever. #$^% that! *No one* is worth it.
    	
    	You need to decide on *your* terms of the breakup. Most people
    very understandably choose as a condition of their breakup, that
    "remaining friends" is NOT an option. They do this because it's
    just too painful and will, if anything, only prolong the pain. Anyone
    in this situation, or any situation where going through grief is
    warranted and appropriate, needs to go through it - not get themselves
    tangled up in something else which will throw a wrench into their
    grieving process. Grief is something that most health-fully happens
    at its own pace - it can neither be hurried nor held back. Either
    hurrying it along or getting it stuck on something has unhealthful 
    consequences.
    
  > I hurt so badly and I'm trying so hard to be "good" because I know I
  > can't give what's wanted/needed - but it's so HARD to stand by and
  > watch
    
    It's hard enough. What you're going through is very painful! You need
    to give *yourself* the best right now. By "standing by", you'll only
    steep yourself in the hurt you so rightfully feel - and that's *not* 
    what you need to do to yourself. Let it go, feel your feelings for all
    they're worth and trust in it that by doing so, you'll be feeling better
    in whatever time you need.
    
    	Hope this helps,
    
    	Joe
    
   
 

    It's much easier for friends to become lovers than for lovers to become
    friends, at least, I think so.
    
    Don't stand and watch - put some space between you and like others have
    said, in time maybe you can become friends, but not while you're
    hurting so much.  If the other person still cares and really wants to
    be friends they'll understand why you need to keep away until the pain
    subsides, and believe me, it will, lots of us have been where you are
    and have survived to love again.
    
    Take care of yourself,
    
    Brenda

Thanks to all who've replied so far - I've addressed some specific comments
below and am seriously thinking of all that's be said so far..........


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> LEDS::BRAUN "Rich Braun"
>> -< Eat Rocky Road ice cream--don't forget the sugar cone >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>    Sorry to hear about your situation--it'll be bad for a while, and it'll
>>    take some time to accept this loss.
    
>>    Time heals.  You'll move on and find better things in life soon!
    
Rich, thanks for the kind words - I do believe you are right, that it will
be bad for a while but time will heal.  It's just getting through now til
then .............

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> AKOCOA::BBARRY
>> -< Yes, it can work >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> If you need to be "good" for you, then do it. If you think being "good"
>> will reverse the situation, you're going to prolong the agony. The relation-
>> ship can never again be what it was.

/Bob

Yes, I'm trying to be "good" as much for ME as the other person - I have come
to accept that the relationship will never be what it has been but am trying
to also understand what it now CAN be - this person is WORTH trying to work
this out in some way, if it can be done, without hurting myself in the process

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joe, 

>>    	I kinda get the sense that this person wants to have their cake
>>    and eat it too, also.

No, that's not the case - we both WANT to remain friends, I'm just trying to
understand if/how I can do that without hurting the way I do at this time -
if you go back and read my original note, you'd see that I'm trying to figure
out HOW to deal with this, not WHAT to do - HOW to retain the friendship we've
had and STILL HAVE even though other things have changed - maybe it's not
possible, I don't know yet, but I have to try to explore the possibility and
decide what I can/cannot be comfortable with 
    
>>    	The breakup sounds like their decision, which out of your love
>>    for them, you're willing to support. It's as if you believe they
>>    "ought" to have whatever it is you're not mentioning, that you cannot 
>>    give.

Yes, I AM willing to support the decision - I DO believe that what is needed
IS needed and ought to be had - I'm just sorry it is something I CANNOT give -
I also believe that, if you truly care about ANYONE, you WANT that person to
be happy and you should support that - I also know that it's not right to
support someone else's requirements to be happy *at my own expense* (e.g, my
hurt) so that's why I'm trying to deal with this 

>>                                   - because the other person "wants
    to be friends" or whatever. #$^% that! *No one* is worth it.

Yes, SOME PEOPLE ARE WORTH IT - if I didn't think this person was worth it,
I wouldn't now be struggling with this issue, trying to decide how/what I can
do to find a way that we can both accept - if I didn't think this person was
with it, I would have already said "goodbye" but the friendship is important
enough ON BOTH OUR PARTS that I'm trying to figure out the best way for ME
to handle it
 	
>>    	You need to decide on *your* terms of the breakup. Most people

That is what I'm trying to do - we have been and will continue to talk about
what I can handle, what I just CAN'T, what I'm willing to do/not do at least
for the next period of time 

>>    It's hard enough. What you're going through is very painful! You need
>>    to give *yourself* the best right now. 
    
I know you're trying to help and I DO understand and appreciate the points 
you've made.  thanks     
   
 

    Given .10, I think the odds are favorable for maintaining - or
    re-developing - a friendship; but I'd agree with others that you
    probably need space for a while first. Whether you can manage some kind
    of contact - phone calls or notes, say - or whether you need to not
    communicate with this person at all for a while is something you'll
    have to determine. It seems likely, from my experience, that the more
    contact you keep the longer it will take for the pain to diminish;
    however, if you break most or all contact for a while, the initial pain
    will be greater... An unpleasant choice. 
    
    I found that concentrating on various aspects of _my_ life - hobbies,
    work, chores, family and friends - helped quite a bit; not that I
    didn't think about That Which I Wished For And Could Not Have, but the
    more involved I got with other things the less time (and spare brain
    cycles) I had for that, *and* the better I felt about myself even when
    I did indulge in a fit of melancholy. [It was vaguely satisfying to be
    able to say that I was "working through it" even when I didn't feel
    very good about things.]
    
    The ability to be honest with the other person is important, too; if
    there are subjects that it's just too painful to talk about, you ought
    to be able to say that.
    
    -b

    
    	You're welcome.
    
    	I might caution you with the suggestion that whether this person
    gets to have (whatever it is) or not, is something that's not your
    responsibility. It's nice to encourage someone you love toward
    something wonderful, but the issue here is as you apparently
    understand, "at what expense"?
    
    	When I said "no one is worth it", I was considering that issue.
    Sure, this person may very well be a "worthwile" (whatever), but
    it's trully not your cross to bear. In fact, it's more concisely
    none of your business - you've broken up - and your interest in
    this matter is at best, peripheral.
    
    	You're not the first person to come in here crying over the
    pain of - unequivocally - selling themselves short in support of 
    someone else, in the name of love.  People's "advice giving" says,
    in a nutshell, "stop that - they're not worth it". Yet when the
    reply comes back, it's just chock full of all the rationale' the
    person with the pain uses to convince themselves that what they're
    doing is "what they really want" or whatever.
    
    	As they say, "when the pain gets bad enough - you'll do something
    about it". I say, "why wait? Who *needs* to put themselves through
    it? Have mercy on yourself - they'll be okay; they'll go off and
    do whatever - they dont need you and much as *you* need you right
    now."
    
    	Joe

Re: .10
>    I DO believe that what is needed IS needed and ought to be had -
>    I'm just sorry it is something I CANNOT give -
    
    I respect your decision to keep this obviously-sensitive matter
    private, but it is a little hard to discuss this without knowing.  I'll
    make a general observation from my own past attempts at long-term
    relationships (none have lasted more than 2-1/2 years so far):
    
      It's not possible for anyone to be all things to someone else,
      and to satisfy all their needs.
    
    The most frequent cause of my breakups has been when one or the other
    concluded that the partner couldn't provide for some need.  What I've
    discovered is that relationships sometimes become too co-dependent, in
    which many needs which could be taken care of outside the relationship
    become areas of mutual dependency, sapping the energy needed to deal
    with some of the needs which can only be taken care of within the
    relationship.
    
    Human society doesn't seem to be open-minded enough to let us readily
    acknowledge this seemingly-obvious fact.
    
    Oh, one other point:  please don't feel guilty about not being able to
    satisfy this particular need; it's obviously something you can't help
    because of who you are (based on your descriptions).  This is probably
    weighing heavily on you now, and your first step now is to start
    accepting yourself as you are:  worthy of love.
    
    -rich
    Mass Storage Engineering OEM D&SG  SHR3-1/W7     DTN:  237-2124
    [email protected]                            508-841-2124

About seven years ago, i went through some hard times with the breakup
of my engagement. I turned to this conference for comfort and support.
I poured my heart out and the sympathy i got from folks here at the 
time was very helpful to me. I felt the same things most people do
when they lose someone they love, thinking that i'll never meet anyone 
like her or him again, thinking about all the fun we had (choosing to 
ignore the problems that were inherent in the relationship that were 
inevitably part of the cause for the breakup). I was down in the dumps. 

Then one day Steve Lionel decided to have a party at his house in Maynard
for the folks who were members of this conference. I figured it was a
good opportunity to attach faces to some of the people who were writing
in HR. I drove 2.5 hours to the party since i lived in Western Ma. at 
the time. Well lo and behold, to make a long but interesting story short, 
i ended up meeting someone who i eventually married that evening. And i'll 
tell you, she couldn't be more perfect a match for me.  It was definitely
love at first sight. We celebrated our 5 year anniversary this past June. Boy, 
how time flies when your happy.

Earlier this year i got a phone call from my ex-fiance. I hadn't heard from 
her since we split up. She ended up marrying some Harvard grad and moved
to Atlanta and had 3 kids. It was nice to hear from her. It's funny but
i sometimes think back about the feelings i had during those times and 
they seem so foolish and such a waste of time to me now. But it was something
i had to get through, however agonizing it was

I just though i'd share this story so you'll know that you will survive 
and things will get better. It's hard to realize it when you feel the way you 
do. I know because people told me that all the time. But you will. Sometime
when you least expect it you'll meet someone else. Hang in there.

/James

No, no.... it was Mike Foley's house, though I don't think it was in
Maynard.  All of the parties I hosted were in Nashua.

I'd like to take credit for you and Lynn getting together, but I can't....

			Steve

oh well, i thought it was in Maynard, anyway. I remember there was a deck out 
back with a grill. I know you were there Steve, that night. Maybe i was just 
blinded by love...:-)

>I'd like to take credit for you and Lynn getting together, but I can't....

Well you do moderate the HR conference and it was through the conference
idirectly that i met her so i guess you can take some credit.

/james

I think it was the violent thunderstorm that did it....  either that, or
the exploding Mercedes windshield.

				Steve

>   Losing a relationship when you don't want to lose it, knowing the
>   person is still alive but things will never be the same as they were,
>   how do you cope ???


    	Going out with friends and staying involved with hobbies is good,
    it's a healthy coping mechanism.  However, it's not *healing*.  And if
    you want to get past this, healing is what you also need to do.


    	May I suggest something so obvious it sometimes gets overlooked?
    Allow yourself to *feel* whatever you need to in order to come to terms
    with the situation.  Talk about it as much as you can, I've found that
    talking about a hurt helps a lot.  Cry when you need to.  You can't be
    doing these things all the time, which is why the stuff above is
    important; however you have to *deal* with things so you can put them
    aside and move on.


    	Someone awhile back wrote a great note about the 3 states that you
    can be in with regards to relationships:  IN, OUT, and WAITING.  It
    sounds to me like the other person has opted for OUT, which by
    definition means you can no longer be IN, no matter how much you might
    want it otherwise.  This leaves you with a choice:  either OUT or
    WAITING.  If you can't provide this need now, is it likely you'll be
    able to provide it sometime down the road?  I consciously chose WAITING
    once, when I was in a very similar position; I never regretted it
    because of the things I learned, but needless to say it didn't work
    out.  I doubt WAITING will work for you in this type of situation.


    	This probably leaves you with OUT.  Having reached that conclusion,
    you now must make some choices that will aid you in your healing and
    moving on with your life.  I've found that this usually necessitates
    some distance from the other person where strong feelings are involved.
    To try to return to friendship too quickly, no matter how much you both
    might want it, will only continue to reopen that wound.  Don't "watch".


    	If you both continue to want it, most likely you *can* return to a
    friendship.  But it will probably take a *long* time, and it's probably
    better in the long run not to rush it.  Take the time you need.  And
    understand that your friendship will most likely be quite different; in
    fact, even if you both want it it's even possible that it might never
    happen in the way you'd like it to.  It's dangerous to set prior
    expectations on things, it's better to take things as they come.


    	Best of luck.  I've certainly been there....



    Brian

    I can certainly relate to this feeling.  When my six year marriage came
    to an end in April of '92, she said that she wanted to be friends.  she
    wanted the friendship that we had before marriage.  I tried it and I
    didn't like it.  To me when you're dating, as friends, you're still
    expecting to go to the next level - whatever that is.  The
    conversations turn to when we are together and the like.  As friends,
    the togetherness that you speak of is more casual.
    
    I guess what I'm saying is when you are emotionally and physically
    involved you give a part of you that you can never get back.  When it's
    apart, it takes healing time for one to regain themselves.  You need to
    take the friendship at your own pace.  I believe it can work but it has
    to be own your term.  Not in an angry sort of way but one day at a
    time.  Another noter said that it's eaiser for friends to become lovers
    than for lovers to become friends.  That's a wonderful truth.  
    
    My ex and I have had some great lunchtimes together recently.  The
    first few were terrible because all I could think of was touching her,
    the fun times that we had and so on.  I eventually asked her not to
    call me for a while so that I could work through this.  Then after a
    few months I called her to test my feelings.  They are still there but
    not as strong and I'm not as angry.
    
    Once you realize your pace of healing, you can do it.  It's up to you.
    
    
    Dave

    When both people want it, the transition from lovers -> friends is
    possible, otherwise, forget it!  It'd be easier to walk across the
    Atlantic Ocean with mob-style concrete footwear.

    >>i ended up meeting someone who i eventually married that evening. 
    >>And i'll 
    
    WOW, was there a JP at the party???
    
    sorry, I couldn't resist...

>    WOW, was there a JP at the party???

     don't know, but i swear i heard wedding bells...;-)

/james

    Sorry for replying so late, but HR is not one of the notesfiles I read
    on a regular basis.

    Oh dear, my heart really goes out to you. I went through what appears
    to have been a similar process 10 months ago, and my response seems to
    have been rather similar as well. While I realise that no two human
    beings experience things in the same way, here's a bit (my god, such a
    very little bit!) of my story.

    My ex-partner Ronald and I were together in what was for me a
    blissfully happy relationship for nearly 5 years. He started out
    head-over-heels in love with me, I started out liking him. (Before the
    images start getting too firmly set, I'm a man as well).

    I had been head-over-heels in love with one or two other people in the
    past and that had never worked out, so in fact I was rather pleased not
    to be "in-love" with Ronald. I thought to myself, "I really like this
    person, and that's great". I never used to wait by the phone hoping he
    would ring; I never got those accelerated heartbeats when he rang me.

    Anyway, my feelings for him deepened slowly and steadily. We had good
    communication (or so I thought); we shared lots and lots of common
    interests (museums, film, classical music); we were both very physical
    and tactile, so hugging was a huge and important part of our
    relationship; I went home to his parents and they treated me as part of
    the family, my parents treated him likewise; when his father died, I
    stood with the family at the funeral; I took him back to my oh-so-dear
    home town and showed him all my childhood spots - we went digging for
    mussels together as I did in my youth; I showed him my old school etc
    etc; I made him main beneficiary in my will, he made me his; we shared
    similar political views so we had lots of long discussions, went to
    political demonstations etc together; he told me how wonderful it was
    that I, his partner-for-life, was also his best friend. The list of how
    fabulous everything was (for me, and for a time, for him too) is
    infinitely long. While never having been "in love" with him, I ended up
    LOVING him very strongly and with 100% commitment. 

    Anyway, after just under 5 years, we were away on vacation together and
    he fell in love with a young man of 20 (we are both 35) and just dumped
    me. When we got home, he told me to leave his apartment (until 5 weeks
    before, 'our' home); he didn't lift a finger to help me find a new
    place, nor to settle in when I eventually found it; he put all the
    objects we had bought together, many of them momentos of very precious
    times together, into a box and said "Take them away". He talked to me
    long and continuously about his new love. He cuddled him in front of me
    (slight simplification, but the ins-and-outs are just too complex to go
    into here). In other words, he behaved very very badly indeed.

    And through all this, all _I_ could think about was my great love for
    him. "If I truly love you, then I should want the very best thing in
    life for you. You've decided that that's not me, so I should respect
    that decision and support you in your search for it elsewhere"; "It's a
    pretty miserable love I have for you if, when you ask me to set you
    free, I'm selfish and just want you back in the mould of our old
    relationship"; "You have to develop and discover yourself, you need to
    explore other relationships" etc, etc. All a bit martyr-like, but
    genuinely felt nevertheless. 

    I tell you it caused me HELL. I cried every day, sometimes twice a day,
    for 6 months. I told myself that he was going through an early mid-life
    crisis, so he didn't know what he was doing. I told myself that his
    behaviour was all very understandable given the terrible time he was
    having. I was determined to support him through this. Partly I suppose
    I believed that when 'his crisis' was over, he would see just how
    special we were to one another, and he would want me back. For me the
    relationship had been so beautiful that deep down inside I just
    couldn't believe he was throwing it all away. 

    10 months down the line I still cry once in a while thinking of the
    beautiful things we shared. I suppose the general drift of the previous
    replies is "look after yourself", "try and forget him", with the
    occasional "yes, it can become a friendship if you both work at it".

    I don't know. I have basically only heard "forget the jerk" from my
    friends. In my case, this 'hard' advice may be more justified than in
    yours because my ex has really done very little from his end, and
    behaved very badly. Nevertheless, it is advice which I have stubbornly
    more or less ignored. We still see each other about once a week and I
    still struggle with all the pain and try to keep my feelings in check.

    Maybe it's prolonging the agony, maybe it's masochistic, maybe it's
    foolishly hoping. I don't know. He's settled down a little bit the last
    two months and now says he's "sad" about the way things have gone
    between us. He admits that for 6 months he saw no qualities in me
    whatsoever, that's why he was so keen to get rid of me. Now, he's
    beginning to see again that I have lots of good qualities and he misses
    them. 

    All that notwithstanding, he still makes quite clear to me that I am no
    longer his "significant other", that he no longer wants me to be his
    life-partner. Of course he's said that for the last 10 months, but the
    difference these days is that (from his side) he's more gentle with me,
    rings me up, wants to see me as a friend etc, and (from my side) I
    (start to!) believe and accept that the relationship is over.

    Like I said, what I've done, and what I continue to do, is against the
    advice of everyone I've talked to, and everything I've read. Part of it
    is hope, but part of it is (as you put it) "trying to be good", living
    up to my principles about what love should be about, I suppose. Probably,
    further down the line, when I've completely over it, I'll be absolutely
    AMAZED at how I could have hung on for so long or behaved so stupidly
    or whatever. Still, for the moment, I go on doing things my way,
    stubborn as ever, and suffering heaps along the way.

    One thing I did realise on the way though. It's quite easy for the
    'terminating' partner to say "Let's be friends", it's very little skin
    off their nose. They still quite like you and can pick and choose the
    nice things about you that they want to have around. It's quite another
    thing for the 'terminated' partner. We have to struggle with very
    painful memories and feelings. You might want to examine what your ex's
    "Let's be friends" means to him, and how much effort he's willing to
    put into achieving that. 

    I hope this helps you a little to think about your own situation. What
    you said certainly caused me to think a bit more about mine as well. In
    a sense I got some re-assurance (what a strange approach!) to know that
    _so_ many people have gone through a similiar experience in their past.
    I learnt from friends and acquaintences who I thought to be very
    well-adjusted people, that they too had had their hearts completely
    broken, and had survived to live happy, fulfilling and loving lives. It
    took them A LOT OF TIME, but they did eventually get over all the grief
    and pain and could go on to love someone new.

    10 months ago I wondered if I would ever be happy again. Nowadays I'm
    sad about twice a week. There will be light at the end of the tunnel
    for you too.

    I wish you lots of strength and courage in the coming months.

    -Sim Lee,
    the Netherlands.

Re: -1
    Another gay person in the file!  Hello!
    
    Your comments about the 'terminating' partner are interesting.  In my
    case I felt very much the same way you do (after my breakup last
    December) even though I was the 'terminating' partner.
    
    I think this distinction can get blurred a lot.  In our case, my
    partner was engaged in a great deal of self-destructive behavior which
    extended into our interaction.  He was absolutely unwilling to do
    anything directly to cause a breakup, saying that he couldn't imagine
    ever being apart, but yet he was doing inconsiderate things which I had
    told him would eventually lead to a breakup if he kept doing them.
    
    It tore me apart having to send him away, after 31 months together. 
    And I'm sad a lot more than 2 times a week, though it's perhaps no
    longer as directly related to the breakup.  It is indirectly, though,
    as I'm still convinced on a gut level that life-partner status is for
    other people, not me.
    
    Sorry to hear about your situation.  Sounds like we'd be perfect for
    each other, were it not for the 4000 miles between us...
    
    -rich
    Mass Storage Engineering OEM D&SG  SHR3-1/W7     DTN:  237-2124
    [email protected]                            508-841-2124

    re .24, that was quite moving.  Although I'm sorry to hear of people
    being unhappy, it made for interesting reading.
    
    Lorna
    

When someone acts as cruel as your ex did when he said sorry I'm suddenly
in love with someone else, leave now, take your things, I won't even help
you etc. etc. it really makes me wonder.

My first guess is that such a person is really unhappy, or angry, or scared.
Along with that first guess is that it's unlikely that the person's "new love"
will work out.

Tell me if I'm right please.  After he brutally threw you out like that for
this other person, did it work out for him and the new ?  (I'm assuming
your story all took place over a year ago.  If it just took place, obviously
you don't have the answer yet).

I'm sorry to hear you had to put up with such abuse.  You deserve better
in your life.

/Eric

re .26,.27

Thank you for your expression of support, Lorna & Eric. I have certainly
had a very difficult year, but am over the worst of it. 

Eric:

> My first guess is that such a person is really unhappy, or angry, or scared.

Ronald was, and still is, rather unhappy. Somehow, he can't get over the
HUGE resentment he has about life, and 'what a bad deal he's had'. Every
time we saw gay male couple in their early twenties, I would get all fuzzy
and warm and romantic ("Wow, isn't that nice for them"), and he would get
sad and frustrated. 

> Along with that first guess is that it's unlikely that the person's "new love"
> will work out.
>
> Tell me if I'm right please.  After he brutally threw you out like that for
> this other person, did it work out for him and the new ?  

Is it working ? Well, yes, sort-of. Ronald and I live in the Netherlands,
and Hans lives in Taiwan, which is (a very rough guess) about US$1200 and
20 hours flying time away from here, so there hasn't really been that much
time for them to see if their relationship would 'work out'. Ronald's been
back there twice for a two week holiday each time, and Hans has been here
once for 10 days. Judging from the photos, both of Ronald's trips were very
successful. Lots of spots visited, things done etc. Hans's trip here (the
most recent of the 3 things) was slightly less successful, there was a bit
of conflict, but nothing you couldn't attribute to normal teething troubles
of a new relationship.

Ronald is certainly searching for himself. This last year, he's had one
affair that lasted for about 3 months, and the occasional one-night-stand.
My interpretation is that he is trying to make up for his perceived 'lost
youth'. In that sense, I can to a certain extent understand his desire to
end our relationship.

As for the cruel way he did it, _that_ I do attribute to a sort of
blindness or madness which descended on him. Nevertheless, every story has
two sides, and perhaps, in the context of his immense anger, he sees
himself as having behaved very well. i.e. Instead of lashing out at me,
deliberately going out of his way to hurt me, he was simply very cold and
rational and indifferent. Perhaps from his point of view, he tried really
hard / spent a lot of effort to stay within the bounds of what he himself
perceived of as 'decent' at the time. Who knows.

I mean, bottom line is that ending a relationship is never easy, often even
when both partners want out. In our case, I most definitely wanted to
continue, and so tried hanging on, tried to force him to negotiate the
continuance of our relationship, etc. Given such a stance from me, and
given that he really didn't want to continue, what choices did he really
have ?

Summary (?)
-------

This was my first major relationship, and the first 3 years we were both
sure it was THE ONE. I mean, even after just 2 years together Ronald
already wanted us to buy a house together. There is also no doubt in my
mind that he was really commited to me in the early period. What we had,
what we shared, what he gave me, that was all REAL, and very beautiful.

I suppose no one can understand why I just didn't slam the door in his face
and tell him to get lost. The only way to understand that is 1) to know
just how good the relationship was 2) to know just how much of a
'weaky/softie' I am. I don't think I'm able to convey either of those in
writing, certainly not in the short space and time avaiable here. 

-Sim.

    Addendum. Hmm. I didn't really want to claim all this space. My crisis
    is basically over, and my own motivation for replying was:

	1) to express support to the writer of .0.

	2) to give her some additional material from my own experiences,
	   particularly because I was struck by the similarity of our
	   responses (all that stuff about "being good", "living up to
	   one's principles about loving someone", "caring that they get
	   what they want out of life").

    I would be happy if DJANCAITIS (is that D.Jancaitis ?) would like to
    enter some more thoughts, ideas, feelings, or perhaps say how things
    are going at the moment.

    -Sim.