| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 37.1 | Some reading first perhaps | POCUS::GARDNER | Deus ex Machina | Fri Aug 06 1993 16:49 | 20 |
|
If you care to read about this issue, you may want to
pick up the May/June 1993 issue of "Psychology Today"
which features a cover story called, _The Aftermath
of Infidelity_. The article is written by a psychologist
from years of patient visitations. It describes the type
of people who have affairs, how it happens, some myths
about infidelity, etc..
It is not only descriptive, but categorizes people who
have affairs, so be forewarned that you may find it to
hit close to home (I believe your note said you had
"been there"). Some people, do not enjoy being thus
categorized.
I'm certainly no expert, but will speak with you if you like.
Good luck
|
| 37.2 | Define the term, please | LEDS::BRAUN | Rich Braun | Tue Aug 10 1993 12:47 | 7 |
| If you've discussed things up front with your partner, and have sexual
relations outside the primary marriage/relationship, is it still called
an 'affair'?
-rich
Mass Storage Engineering OEM D&SG SHR3-1/W7 DTN: 237-2124
[email protected] 508-841-2124
|
| 37.3 | a woman's personal opinion on this... | MR4DEC::MAHONEY | | Fri Aug 13 1993 10:38 | 22 |
| Affairs do NOT have to happen if the person is honest and happy in his
or her marriage. Only when something is missing and the person
involved is not secure is when affairs come into the picture...
A married person is NOT free to seek sex outside of marriage. Marriage
is a "sacrament" with the responsibility of faithfulness. What happens
is that in today's society we do NOT see it as a sacrament but as a
"contract" that can be drawn or destroyed according to the needs of the
parties. Blunt and simple but true. And if a contract marriage can be
broken so often... why do we need affairs? Why cheat on people when is
so simple to say "I don't love you anymore"?
My personal opinion is that I would NOT ever get into a cheating situation
with my spouse, I am mature enough to take any decision up front and
discuss anything face to face, whatever subject that might be. If love
wears off a bit through the years commitment does not, and life gives
plenty of good things to enjoy through marriage. (in reality, love
does NOT wane through the years but the contrary, it gets more solid as
years pass by and a lot sweeter and less "impetuous", according to what
I see in "older couples"... and I know quite a few!)
Ana
|
| 37.4 | A Different Woman's Opinion | SUPER::REGNELL | Smile...Payback is a Mother | Tue Aug 17 1993 22:13 | 28 |
|
RE: .2
No, I do not think that if a discussion is held and both
parties agree that intimacy is not off limits; that it does
not threaten the core agreement to work through life's joys
and trials together...that it can any longer be called an
"AFFAIR".
Such a word.."affair"...it connotes lies and secrecy. Do yuo
think it might be easier to discuss this topic if we used
a less judgemental term?
How about "intmacy outside the core relationship" or some
other sufficiently generic term?
We are all human...and humans reach out to each other in times
of need...in timmes of joy...sometimes just in shere joy at
discovering another soul with the same view on the universe.
These discoveries need not define a denegration to the
core realtionship; in fact they can revitalize it.
[Please note that I am not assuming that these contacts
_do_ or _do not_ include sex. Intimacy is defined by many more
things than clinical penetration.
Melinda
|
| 37.5 | | WIZZER::FISCHER | I can always sleep standing up | Wed Aug 18 1993 08:43 | 15 |
| Isn't having an affair all about secrecy and lies? I think the basenoter is
referring to affairs to mean secret sexual relations outside of their "normal"
relationship and I think affair is the right term to use. For most people, I
assume that any relationship of this kind they want to keep secret from their
partner.
I personally feel that people have affairs because something is lacking in their
relationship with their partner. This could be sexual, but could also just be
the excitement experienced in meeting someone knew. The romance that may have
died in a long relationship. It can tear relationships apart, but can also
strengthen them, but I feel the threat of the relationship breaking up is the
reason for the secrecy.
Ian
|
| 37.6 | Secrets which shouldn't be kept | LEDS::BRAUN | Rich Braun | Wed Aug 18 1993 10:50 | 23 |
| Why did I raise the question of "affairs" vs. nonmonogamous
relationships? Because I know of a number of nonmonogamous
relationships that seem to work out very well over time: in order to
maintain such a relationship, communications have to be well above
average, and indeed honest communication is the most vital ingredient
of a long-term stable relationships.
In my own experience, I've run into problems either way: in one
relationship, we discussed non-monogamy and decided it would be OK.
Then things blew up when I tried to be honest and reassuring that the
primary relationship was still and always would be just that, primary.
In that and others, monogamy turned out to be the death of the
relationship, owing to boredom or, far more often, distrust caused
by the lies (too many "monogamous" relationships just plain aren't,
despite what people say).
Alas honesty is not sufficiently rewarded in this society. (The
problem goes far beyond marital fidelity, alas...)
-rich
Mass Storage Engineering OEM D&SG SHR3-1/W7 DTN: 237-2124
[email protected] 508-841-2124
|
| 37.7 | | HANNAH::OSMAN | see HANNAH::IGLOO$:[OSMAN]ERIC.VT240 | Wed Aug 18 1993 17:18 | 17 |
|
My partner and I had an interesting discussion about affairs just the other
night.
Her feeling is that if I were to have an affair, and then it was over, and
I didn't expect it to happen again, and I felt it was a mistake, then my
partner doesn't want to hear about it, since she feels the pain of knowing
is too much for her.
I told her I feel differently. Were she to have an affair, I do want her to
tell me about it, regardless of whether it's over, or whether she expects it
to happen again. My feeling is, hurt or no hurt, I want all the cards on the
table, and I want to know what's going on.
/Eric
|
| 37.8 | we'd lose too much if we did... | MR4DEC::MAHONEY | | Fri Sep 17 1993 12:26 | 13 |
| If my partner had an affair... it would be the END of our marriage
instantaneously!!! I could NOT trust a person who betrayned me on
purpose as an affair is something we are not forced into, only if we
want to, and knowing this, if my partner did it... he knows perfectly
well the consequences of that action. Of course that would work for me
too, if I ever betray my husband... I won't have a husband any more and
it would be my fault, so knowing this, it is very easy for us to keep
out of problems ... our rules are cristal clear and accepted by both!
I don't deny that somethings like that do happen, it would break my
heart to be in that situation, but it would NOT change things, breaking
our vows means breaking our marriage, and with that in mind it makes
marriage "fairly safe and sound"...
|
| 37.9 | The outcome may be the same, but..... | AKOCOA::BBLANCHARD | | Mon Sep 20 1993 11:01 | 3 |
| .8 - Things are never as crystal clear in the middle of this kind of
crisis as they seem to be prior to it. They probably should be, but
they just aren't when you're confronted with the actual situation.
|
| 37.10 | | VAXWRK::STHILAIRE | contemporary angst & nihilism | Mon Sep 20 1993 11:33 | 6 |
| re .9, that's very true. In addition, I think there are a few people
who have affairs in the hope that doing so will somehow get them *out*
of an unhappy marriage.
Lorna
|
| 37.11 | Many reasons all Bad! | NSTG::SHEEHAN | | Wed Sep 22 1993 12:10 | 25 |
|
There are many reasons that a person will have an affair from
instability in their relationship, the excitement of another
persons attraction or to inflict pain on their partner inorder
to terminate the relationship or just be hurtful. Sometimes its
all of the above. I don't know of any GOOD reason a person has an
affair and I don't see any GOOD coming out of one.
I think the key to understanding why someone will have an affair is
to understand the person and your relationship with them. I do feel
that an affair/addultry is an act even if done unintentionaly will
bring severe pain to another person/persons and is "in my opinion"
the most unacceptable "legal" crime against society that any person
can perform. We penalize and incarcerate people for physical abbuse
and sometimes psychological abuse depending on circumstances. However
when it comes to crippleing someone emotionally caused by the infidelity
of their spouse it is dissmissed as acceptable behavior for this day and
age. Look at movies and daytime TV to see how often affairs are the subject
matter and infact the central theme. I shutter to think of a future where
affairs/addultry will be as acceptable in society as lies.
Neil...
|
| 37.12 | Prohibitions are a bad idea | LEDS::BRAUN | Rich Braun | Wed Sep 22 1993 13:15 | 25 |
| Eek, it's hardly a punishable crime to be lying and deceitful to
your partner, but it should not have to come down to that.
The last few responses on this thread have really convinced me that
the chains which bind our society together induce more lying and deceit
than we'd have in a society which said "so what?" about sex and
sexuality.
In my opinion, we humans really do have a lot more to worry about than
who's sleeping with whom. Too bad it's such a big deal that our other
collective problems go unresolved.
If in some future monogamous relationship I feel the urge for an
"affair", I would much rather reveal it to my partner immediately
and face the consequences, than to hide behind a mask of shame and
guilt. Only in that way could whatever problem led to the behavior
be discussed and resolved.
Of course, it would take a *lot* to convince me to enter into a
monogamous relationship in the first place, after my last one.
-rich
Mass Storage Engineering OEM D&SG SHR3-1/W7 DTN: 237-2124
Work: [email protected] 508-841-2124
Home: [email protected]
|
| 37.13 | | VAXWRK::STHILAIRE | contemporary angst & nihilism | Wed Sep 22 1993 15:38 | 4 |
| re .12, yup, I agree with you.
Lorna
|
| 37.14 | On the upside, there'll be less traffic at rush hour. | RUSURE::ZAHAREE | Michael W. Zaharee, ULTRIX Engineering | Wed Sep 22 1993 16:09 | 4 |
| That's the ticket, jail time for adulterers... lock up 1/2 to 3/4 of
the adult population.
- M
|
| 37.15 | Just open up and talk!! | EARRTH::DREYER | High apple pie in the sky hopes! | Thu Sep 23 1993 07:58 | 17 |
| Rich,
> If in some future monogamous relationship I feel the urge for an
> "affair", I would much rather reveal it to my partner immediately
> and face the consequences, than to hide behind a mask of shame and
> guilt. Only in that way could whatever problem led to the behavior
> be discussed and resolved.
Do you have to have an affair to confess about in order to open up and talk
about whatever problem led to the behavior? To us, in our relationship,
communication and honesty are extremely important. If there is a problem,
it's better to talk about it even if it hurts, before something disatrous
like an affair occurs! Of course, the level of committment is a big factor
here.
Laura
|
| 37.16 | Behavior slips are only human | LEDS::BRAUN | Rich Braun | Thu Sep 23 1993 13:03 | 38 |
| Laura wrote:
>Do you have to have an affair to confess about in order to open up and talk
>about whatever problem led to the behavior? To us, in our relationship,
>communication and honesty are extremely important.
I don't mean to suggest that I'd have to go out and have sex outside
the relationship in order to raise some significant issue, just that if
it did happen it'd be better to talk about it than to hide it. And I
wouldn't ever tell a partner that "the relationship is history the
minute I catch you with another man".
This is just my set of values; obviously two people who share vows
with one another, and mean them, and maintain an honest and open line
of communication with each other will have different expectations of
one another.
To clarify my own values, I guess what I'm saying is that in a
relationship I'd have with someone, no subject would be taboo, and the
only grounds for immediate termination of the relationship would be
catching the partner lying about anything, big or small.
So long as there is honesty and communication, any problem can be
resolved. When the honesty is gone, then IMHO the relationship has
lost its foundation.
I remain skeptical of any commitments which are based on prohibitions,
since this forces a person to do one of two things in the aftermath of
any "slip" in behavior: lie about it, or reveal it and risk
termination of something vitally important. In so many situations,
lying is the easier course to take. I don't want to force that on
anyone.
-rich
Mass Storage Engineering OEM D&SG SHR3-1/W7 DTN: 237-2124
Work: [email protected] 508-841-2124
Home: [email protected]
|
| 37.17 | The other side of the coin... | EARRTH::DREYER | High apple pie in the sky hopes! | Thu Sep 23 1993 13:36 | 44 |
|
> I don't mean to suggest that I'd have to go out and have sex outside
> the relationship in order to raise some significant issue, just that if
> it did happen it'd be better to talk about it than to hide it.
I misunderstood what you wrote then, Rich. I definitely agree if it
happened it would be better to talk about it than hide it.
> This is just my set of values; obviously two people who share vows
> with one another, and mean them, and maintain an honest and open line
> of communication with each other will have different expectations of
> one another.
Or even two people who have committed themselves to the relationship,
and have not necessarily taken "vows". To me, I don't have to take
vows to remain faithful.
> To clarify my own values, I guess what I'm saying is that in a
> relationship I'd have with someone, no subject would be taboo, and the
> only grounds for immediate termination of the relationship would be
> catching the partner lying about anything, big or small.
No subject should be taboo, as far as I'm concerned. I sure wouldn't
say what would be grounds for immediate termination, but it certainly
wouldn't be lying about something small. I'd want to know the
reasons behind the lie.
> So long as there is honesty and communication, any problem can be
> resolved. When the honesty is gone, then IMHO the relationship has
> lost its foundation.
I totally agree with this.
> I remain skeptical of any commitments which are based on prohibitions,
> since this forces a person to do one of two things in the aftermath of
> any "slip" in behavior: lie about it, or reveal it and risk
> termination of something vitally important.
I certainly hope you see promising to be faithful to each other
as a prohibition. To me, it's not a prohibition, it's a commitment!
Especially in this day and age where you can get an give an incurable,
deadly disease. To me, it's not worth the risk!
Laura
|
| 37.18 | Reply .12 | NSTG::SHEEHAN | | Thu Sep 23 1993 17:58 | 24 |
|
Reply .12
> Eek, it's hardly a punishable crime to be lying and deceitful to
> your partner, but it should not have to come down to that.
Maybe not, but when the risk of transmitting a life threatening sexually
transmitted disease is there, lying and deciept about a persons sexual
relations can take on a whole new slant.
> In my opinion, we humans really do have a lot more to worry about than
> who's sleeping with whom. Too bad it's such a big deal that our other
> collective problems go unresolved.
This maybe true, but in this time in history "who's sleeping with whom"
has become a major cause of death.
> Of course, it would take a *lot* to convince me to enter into a
> monogamous relationship in the first place, after my last one.
There is a lot to be said for monogamy these days! I suppose you could
choose abstinence or just take the risk and hope your safe.
Neil...
|
| 37.19 | AIDS and monogamy are unrelated | LEDS::BRAUN | Rich Braun | Fri Sep 24 1993 15:00 | 20 |
| > There is a lot to be said for monogamy these days! I suppose you could
> choose abstinence or just take the risk and hope your safe.
Neil, I find your comments here to be moralizing and somewhat
demeaning. I have experience in this area that surely you don't.
My most recent long-term partner was HIV+, and I am not (to my
knowledge). Education works wonders when it comes to matters like sex
and death. Please learn more about this subject. A good place to
start is HBO's "And the Band Played On" movie which is currently
showing on cable.
I have created a separate topic 46 for discussing AIDS.
regards,
-rich
Mass Storage Engineering OEM D&SG SHR3-1/W7 DTN: 237-2124
Work: [email protected] 508-841-2124
Home: [email protected]
|
| 37.20 | All the difference in the world | USWRSL::RAW_KY | | Fri Sep 24 1993 15:32 | 17 |
| I agree with Neil. Education can help prevent the spread of AIDS, but
monogamy and abstanance can stop it! It's not worth risking your life
and someone elses for a 20 minute cheap thrill. All affairs are wrong
whether or not your married. If my husband had an affair the marriage
would be over, because if having sex with someone else out-weighed my
feelings and our marriage, then he wouldn't deserve to be married to me.
Being attracted to other people is natural, it is what you do with the
attraction that makes all the difference in the world. If you are
thinking about having an affair, take time to ask yourself why. Do you
not love your partner anymore? Do you feel neglected, or is your sex
life not what it used to be? Sex with your partner can improve if you
just use a little imagination! If the answer is that you don't love
your partner anymore, do them a favor and get a divorce before you
start messing around.
Kymberly A. Raw
|
| 37.21 | | VMSMKT::KENAH | I���-) (���) {��^} {^�^} {���} /��\ | Fri Sep 24 1993 16:32 | 5 |
| Education can help prevent the spread of AIDS, but monogamy and
abstanance [sic] can stop it!
Slow it down, but not stop it -- intravenous drug use is another
disease vector that doesn't involve sex at all.
|
| 37.22 | | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Why not ask why? | Mon Sep 27 1993 12:05 | 30 |
|
RE .20 -
>Being attracted to other people is natural, it is what you do with the
>attraction that makes all the difference in the world. If you are
>thinking about having an affair, take time to ask yourself why.
Kymberly's advice would go a long way toward people's emotional
and physical well-being, IHMO. Affairs happen basically because
people dont bother to take the time to consider "what's happening
here?" Where's the self-intervention, the system of check and balance
most would call their "sanity" in the time just before an affair
is initiated?
I spose it's easier just to "go for it", than it is to extend
yourself (i.e. "work") to make it at least a conscious choice, with
all factors - stuff like "kids" and/or "a human beings emotional pain"
- actually rigorously considered.
If one goes for it despite this effort being made, one has problems
beyond the scope of sanity, IMHO. There are programs for that...
What one does with their attraction to another being is a very
profound question. I believe there are two answers; one "healthy",
another "unhealthy" - at any stage of this natural process. It's
one's own responsibility what one chooses to do; manefest a healthy
behavior or not. I'm sure there are those who've rationalized they're
having an affair because they're so healthy and virile or whatever.
Joe
|
| 37.23 | Reply .19 | NSTG::SHEEHAN | | Mon Sep 27 1993 17:33 | 32 |
|
Reply .19
>Neil, I find your comments here to be moralizing and somewhat
>demeaning.
Rich
My statement was not meant to be demeaning in any way! And I did not intend
my comment as a target towards you but rather as a choice someone could make
to avoid the risk of contracting a life threatening Sexually Transmitted Disease
which there are many and HIV "the virus attributed to AIDS" certainly is
considered one.
I personaly feel that moral values or lack thereof play a major part in a
persons decisions making with regards to Affairs. Or for that matter any act
against society. Alas I also realize that morality is something that our
present society does not pay much attention to and certainly not with regards
to sex unless it is a violent act upon an unwilling recipient.
> I have experience in this area that surely you don't.
I don't pretend to know everything about HIV and AIDS but I do know that HIV
is transmitted in most cases through unprotected sexual activity whereby
bodily fluids from an infected person enters anothers bloodstream. Now I
understand that I.V. drug use and other less common ways of transmission exist
however to my knowledge the most common way HIV is spread is through sexual
relations.
Neil....
Neil...
|
| 37.24 | | VAXWRK::STHILAIRE | Food, Shelter & Diamonds | Tue Sep 28 1993 11:45 | 18 |
| re .23, I do not think that having an affair is an "act against
society." It might very well be seen as a personal betrayal of someone
who had been promised fidelity, but I fail to see what business it
would be of society in general.
Also, I think a lot more than lack of morals causes most affairs. Our
society has always pushed people towards monogamous couple
relationships and marriage, without ever giving people time to ask
themselves whether that is what they really want in life. Some people
don't even think that human beings are monogamous by nature, that it is
an artifical condition that has been forced on people. I'm not
completely against monogamous relationships, but I do wish that some
people would be more cautious in judging others. People could become
involved in affairs for any manner of reasons - loneliness, despair,
boredom, a need to feel loved.
Lorna
|
| 37.25 | An act against any person/persons is an act against society | NSTG::SHEEHAN | | Tue Sep 28 1993 15:47 | 32 |
|
Reply .24
> I do not think that having an affair is an "act against
> society."
Lorna,
I beg to differ!
Any act performed by a person or persons that causes pain either physical
or emotional or causes hardship to one or more people can certainly be
considered an act against society. We are all part of society like it or not.
> It might very well be seen as a personal betrayal of someone
> who had been promised fidelity, but I fail to see what business it
> would be of society in general.
In actuallity in the State of New Hampshire addultry is illegal "although
only a misdemeanor" a person can be charged and convicted if the evidence
is there. Not much point in doing so though except to humiliate the offender.
Society has accepted addultry probably because of its frequency and like other
misdemeanors which have become such common offenses that its not worth the time
and effort to prosecute. Ie Speeding violations, Jaywalking, Littering etc.
These crimes although considered minor offenses are like all crimes acts
against society.
How many people would like to see their cheating spouse charged and slapped
with a $10,000.00 fine for each proven adulterous act. Hey maybe this is a
good way to make some extra money for the Granite State ;^).
Neil...
|
| 37.26 | i don't live in NH either | VAXWRK::STHILAIRE | Food, Shelter & Diamonds | Tue Sep 28 1993 16:35 | 4 |
| re .25, well, we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.
Lorna
|
| 37.27 | | WAHOO::LEVESQUE | This is only a test | Wed Sep 29 1993 08:18 | 7 |
| >An act against any person/persons is an act against society
This is just plain silly.
Incarceration of a criminal is an act against that person, but it is absurd
to claim such an act is also against society. It is an act FOR society.
Attempts to oversimplify only obscure the issue.
|
| 37.28 | reply .27 | NSTG::SHEEHAN | | Wed Sep 29 1993 11:20 | 38 |
|
reply .27
> Incarceration of a criminal is an act against that person, but it is absurd
> to claim such an act is also against society. It is an act FOR society.
> Attempts to oversimplify only obscure the issue.
HUH! I guess I don't quite understand what you're saying
> Attempts to oversimplify only obscure the issue.
I didn't think I was oversimplifying but maybe I should have been more specific,
and I don't see where I was obscureing the issue. So for clarity I'm entering
some more specific information.
Incarceration of a person is a disciplinary measure by the governing society's
law enforcement in respones to a person breaking of the laws set forth by said
society. An act performed against any person which is in voilation of the laws
of a society of which this person is a member is a criminal act. I do recognize
that Federal, State and local laws may differ and people are often members of
multiple societies by choice or by default.
However my viewpoint on this is that any act against any person in a society
which causes pain or hardship to another person is an act against that society.
I'm sure others views may differ and I can respect that.
Now back to the topic on Affairs!
Neil...
American Heritage Dictionary
society 1 Human beings in general
2 A group of people with a common culture or way of life
3 A group of people who unite to share a common interest
|
| 37.29 | | DSSDEV::RUST | | Wed Sep 29 1993 11:40 | 33 |
| Seems to me that, in general, the reason any society comes up with
rules against certain behaviors is because those behaviors tend to harm
that society (or to be perceived as so doing). [Admittedly, modern-day
U.S. society seems to spend a lot of time making up things to make
rules about, but In The Beginning, I like to think, people had more
practical reasons for defining "taboos" and suchlike.]
We have plenty of practical examples of the effects of extra-marital
affairs on society, even if they are all side effects. The affairs
themselves may not do any harm to anyone other than those involved, but
if they come to light they may lead to divorce (and possibly a societal
need to help support the children and/or to litigate against one or
both parents for child support or custody arrangements), or they may
lead to violent crime; and even if these worst-case scenarios don't
take place, a chronically stressful or depressing home life could wreak
havoc in a community, depending on how significant the parties involved
were to that community. [Would you feel comfortable knowing that your
neurosurgeon's spouse had been playing around for years, and that the
surgeon had only found out about it the day before you were scheduled
to be operated on?]
Now, none of these potential problems are due only to affairs, and not
all affairs have such grim results; *and* it's quite possible that a
"non-affair" - such as an unhappy marriage - could have all the same
results as those triggered by an affair. But, in any case, I can see
how a society would feel that it had an interest in how people
conducted their private lives...
This doesn't mean I think adultery should be a crime (though, these
days, with the risk of bringing home a fatal illness, perhaps it should
be).
-b
|
| 37.30 | | WECROW::HILL | In casual pursuit of serenity. | Wed Sep 29 1993 15:50 | 19 |
| re: .25
> Any act performed by a person or persons that causes pain either physical
> or emotional or causes hardship to one or more people can certainly be
> considered an act against society. We are all part of society like it or not.
Neil,
If what you were saying caused me some emotional distress would you stop
saying it.
I was reading "Crazy Time" a great book about divorce. It talks of the
"marriage breaking affair" as being the act that gives a person the confidence
to end a relationship. Many emotionally abused people feel so worthless that
they would not consider leaving their spouse until they find things could be
better elsewhere. I think of affairs as a symptom of something deeper and not
as a crime.
Maybe you could let your guard down a little and look at the this from
another perspective.
Peter.
|
| 37.31 | | VAXWRK::STHILAIRE | Food, Shelter & Diamonds | Wed Sep 29 1993 15:59 | 4 |
| re .30, I agree with you.
Lorna
|
| 37.32 | Reply .30 | NSTG::SHEEHAN | | Wed Sep 29 1993 17:01 | 39 |
|
Reply .25
>If what you were saying caused me some emotional distress would you stop
>saying it.
Yes!
> I was reading "Crazy Time" a great book about divorce. It talks of the
>"marriage breaking affair" as being the act that gives a person the confidence
>to end a relationship.
Peter,
I also read this book and although it talks of the "marriage breaking affair"
as a way a person initiates a marrital breakup it does not condone it or
recomend it. The book merely states why people use an affair to gain an
end result. There are also cases where people kill their spouse to end a
marriage and the reasons for this as well. Should we consider a person who
offs their spouse an over-confident person?
>Many emotionally abused people feel so worthless that they would not consider
>leaving their spouse until they find things could be better elsewhere.
Of course I understand that people sometimes do things under duress but two
wrongs never make a right in my book. If someone is being abbused emotionally
or physically this in itself is a wrong doing and if sepperation, divorce or
annulment is warranted then there are legal things that can be done to insure
this will happen.
>I think of affairs as a symptom of something deeper and not as a crime.
Not all affairs are created equal! However in my view all affairs and I speak
of an affair as an adulterous act performed by a married person, are WRONG
regardless of the underlying reasons. As stated in another reply some states
incluning New Hampshire addultry is a crime.
Neil....
|
| 37.33 | Agreeing to disagree | LEDS::BRAUN | Rich Braun | Wed Sep 29 1993 17:23 | 15 |
| I can't really bring anything more to this discussion. It has
disintegrated into what amounts to religious dogma, not an
acknowledgment that people's relationships are between each other and
not the rest of society.
To me, the only values which matter in a relationship are those of
Partner A and Partner B.
We just plain disagree. Fortunately there are many who feel as I do
about this subject, even if they are not a majority.
-rich
Mass Storage Engineering OEM D&SG SHR3-1/W7 DTN: 237-2124
Work: [email protected] 508-841-2124
Home: [email protected]
|
| 37.34 | reply .33 | NSTG::SHEEHAN | | Thu Sep 30 1993 10:16 | 26 |
| Reply .33
>It has disintegrated into what amounts to religious dogma, not an
>acknowledgment that people's relationships are between each other and
>not the rest of society.
>
>To me, the only values which matter in a relationship are those of
>Partner A and Partner B.
Rich,
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on these also. I don't
remember seeing any mention of religion in these notes. Unless you
consider religion to be what is acceptable/nonacceptable by society in
general. I think those who are members of a religious society have their
own code of conduct which they choose to abide by and which may or may not
be parralell to mainstream society's acceptance or regulations.
>We just plain disagree. Fortunately there are many who feel as I do
>about this subject, even if they are not a majority.
Yes this is true! I do respect your viewpoint although I do not fully
understand the reasoning behind it.
Neil...
|
| 37.35 | what about the children | USWRSL::RAW_KY | | Mon Oct 04 1993 15:44 | 9 |
| I think that we have gotton off the subject just a little bit. In the end,
it is the children that bare the scars of an affair. They are the
one's that are caught in the middle. Not only is it
confussing and embarrassing for them, but they don't get the choice of
leaving the person that caused the family to brake up. This is just
another thing to think about. Why have an affair? Why not just get
divorced. If your answer is "because I still love my spouse"
obviously you don't love them enough.
|
| 37.36 | most of the don't affect anything | VAXWRK::STHILAIRE | Food, Shelter & Diamonds | Wed Oct 06 1993 12:56 | 8 |
| re .35, my guess would be that children never learn of most of the
"affairs" their parents may have had, and that most "affairs" never
cause the marriage to break-up. In fact, my guess is that most
"affairs" are just that - "affairs" - that never affect the person's
real life, family or major relationship.
Lorna
|
| 37.37 | Keeping it Secret is recomended by some | NSTG::SHEEHAN | | Wed Oct 06 1993 16:34 | 24 |
|
In some of the books I've read secrecy is the recomended method
of dealing with the aftermath of an affair. The point being is
"what they don't know won't hurt them". I personally have mixed feelings
with this. Although by my previous notes its obvious that I don't condone
an affair for any reason. If it happens and its over then keeping it to
yourself since the less anyone knows about it the better may make sense.
Just make damn sure you haven't contracted anything which could affect the
health of your spouse. If the affair is ongoing and the person has no
intention of ending it, this is where the problems arise. In this situation
the marriage is at risk and children should not be left in the dark. It is
up to the parent who is having the affair or causing a marital breakup to
explain their reasoning for continuing this affair to their children and its
not as simple as Daddy/Mommy don't love each other anymore. Saying this to
a child causes distrust and insecurity in the child and love the parent has
for the child becomes questionable by the child. "Will Mommy/Daddy not love
me someday too?" Children are very forgiving people when the truth is explained
to them. They may not fully understand and they may be hurt "especially if the
affair leads to the end of the marriage" but they "in most cases" love their
parent and will forgive them if the've been told the reason behind their parents
behavior. Nothing hurts anyone more than lies and deciept especially when this
behavior is from the parent of a young child.
Neil...
|
| 37.38 | peeeeeernt | USWRSL::RAW_KY | | Thu Oct 07 1993 17:53 | 13 |
| Reg .36
I disagree with you 100%. I would say that 90% of all afairs are
brought to light some way or the other. Also, if the marriage stays
together after an affair, the one who was cheated on must not be smart
enough to know that if they will do it once, they will do it again!
My best friend married her childhood sweetheart. After, a year and a
half she got pregnant and the night she told her husband, he told her
that he was in love with another woman. Later, during his "great
confession" he told her that this was his 3rd affair, and that the
woman he was currently sleeping with had herpes. That $#%@&$&* hole
could have infected his wife and his unborn child. My friend is still
with her husband, but I hope it isn't for long!!! If only I could have
a small chat with him...(hahahahah)
|
| 37.39 | | WAHOO::LEVESQUE | who's this kinky so-and-so? | Fri Oct 08 1993 10:24 | 4 |
| >I would say that 90% of all afairs are brought to light some way or the other.
I think you massively overestimate how often affairs are discovered/confessed
to.
|
| 37.40 | | VAXWRK::STHILAIRE | Food, Shelter & Diamonds | Fri Oct 08 1993 10:29 | 9 |
| re .38, your friend's husband sounds like a jerk, but I still think
you're way off on your guess as to the percentage of affairs that are
somehow brought to light, that is, if you include one night stands and
briefer flings as affairs. I think that people who think that 90% of
all affairs are brought to light just don't know how much is going on
out there.
Lorna
|
| 37.41 | | AKOV06::PILOTTE | | Thu Dec 09 1993 12:27 | 8 |
| I find this topic interesting....
Is the definition here of an 'affair' only relationships that involve sex??
What about a relationship outside the marriage that doesnt involve sex, but an
affair of the mind? If two people have confessed their attraction and have
feelings beyond friendship for each
other and dont confess to their spouses, is that not an 'affair' as well???
|
| 37.42 | But then again I'm single | LEDS::BRAUN | Rich Braun | Thu Dec 09 1993 12:51 | 14 |
| Yes, it's very interesting indeed.
I'd be much more upset about this so-called 'affair of the mind' in
a partner, than about mere sexual relations. If we discussed things
ahead of time, I'd probably consent to sex outside the primary
relationship, but not to someone who spent a great deal of time with my
partner in an intense platonic relationship. Sex isn't much of a
threat, but I'd feel threatened with potential loss if someone were
getting along with my partner better than me.
-rich
Mass Storage Engineering OEM D&SG SHR1-3/O13 DTN: 237-2124
Work: [email protected] 508-841-2124
Home: [email protected]
|
| 37.43 | Re .41, 42 | NSTG::SHEEHAN | | Fri Dec 10 1993 15:04 | 17 |
|
Hmmmm, This is a very interesting scenario which lends itself to some
deep thought. Personally I feel that the threat of an affair can cause
just as much discomfort to the person threatened as the actual affair
involving sex. However there is no way of avoiding/controlling what
your spouse feels inside and their attraction to another. The BIG difference
is when the attraction evolves to a physical relationship. Although I have
heard of people who don't have a problem with their spouses having sex
with another as long as its only physical. For example a wife allowing their
husband to frequent a prostitute. I personally cannot understand this. I
suppose there is something lacking in their intimate relationship somewhere.
Anyway whatever the case an affair in my opinion is a circumstance that occurs
where one person is emotionally hurt by their spouse due to some action performed
with another person involving some intimate sexual relationship without the
consent or in most cases knowledge of the other.
Neil....
|
| 37.44 | Healthy Behavior | AKOV06::PILOTTE | | Tue Dec 28 1993 12:53 | 9 |
| A few notes back someone mentionned 'healthy behavior' toward another person to
whom you are attracted. What might that be??
If you are attracted to another is it best left unsaid? Does the honesty of
telling that person automatically set the relationship up to go further?
I guess this is the question, whats the best ways to avoid an affair??
:-)
|
| 37.45 | | QUARK::LIONEL | Free advice is worth every cent | Tue Dec 28 1993 13:10 | 8 |
| The best way to avoid an affair is to take responsibility for your own
actions. If you start saying "well, I just couldn't help it" or "my spouse
isn't meeting my needs", you're setting yourself up.
Honesty does not equate to "tell all", in all circumstances. There are some
things better left unsaid.
Steve
|
| 37.46 | | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Why not ask why? | Wed Dec 29 1993 10:13 | 5 |
|
Steve's right. I've heard that making your feelings known to the
other party in such circumstances is the first step toward trouble.
Joe
|
| 37.47 | some affairs are unavoidable | KAOFS::M_CAMPEAU | | Thu Feb 24 1994 12:35 | 16 |
| What about the case where a long distance romance existed and you just
saw this person 2 or 3 times a year for about 7 years. Their job
involves lots of travel. Therefore you're aware that this relationship
could never be serious. You fall in love with someone in your city and
you start talking marriage but all of a sudden your long distance lover
happens to move into your city. What do you do? Your in love with the
2 of them.
The one your talking marriage with only thinks that this outsider is
only a friend but the long distance lover is unaware of the local one.
Mentionning your feelings to your future husband might destroy your
relationship but yet your feeling for the other one go on unresolved.
Can you avoid the affair?
|
| 37.48 | | QUARK::LIONEL | Free advice is worth every cent | Thu Feb 24 1994 12:52 | 7 |
| You can always avoid the affair. Whether you do or not depends on what your
personal sense of ethics is. This notion, increasingly popular nowadays,
that one can disclaim responsibility for one's own actions because of some
outside influence (other than perhaps someone holding a gun to your head) is
foreign and abhorrent to me.
Steve
|
| 37.49 | not too sympathetic, but... | GOLLY::SWALKER | believing is seeing | Thu Feb 24 1994 13:15 | 29 |
|
I don't agree with your title that "some affairs are unavoidable",
although the situation you described sounds like a classic case of
"setting yourself up" (albeit probably without realizing it).
How is this case really different from the one where the "outsider"
has lived in the same city all along? That is, other than that there
wasn't the possiblity that it could become serious, and that since
nobody in your city knew the other person, it was easy to keep the
definition of your relationship nebulous if you mentioned it at all.
Also, it was easy not to tell the outsider about the man in your life.
In other words, you were the one that told your fiance that this
person was a friend, rather than someone you'd had a casual
long-distance relationship with, and you were also the one that has
neglected (to date) to tell the outsider that there's someone else in
your life now. (What were you were planning to do if you took a
business trip to the other city after you got married?)
I fail to see how this case is substantively different than having
an SO at home and having an affair on a business trip, or any other
context where you expect that the two will "never find out" about each
other. There's no rule that says that all romantic feelings for others
must be resolved. If you're really unwilling to forsake all others,
I have to wonder why you'd want to get into a marriage where this is
part of the ground rules.
Sharon
|
| 37.50 | Exercise the power of Choice | TALLIS::NELSON | As long as I can dream.... | Thu Feb 24 1994 20:17 | 23 |
|
I agree emphatically with Steve.
I guess I don't understand how someone could be "in love" with two
people at the same time. Other folks seem to have experienced this
phenomena, but I haven't. Once I care about someone *that way*, there
just isn't room for anyone else *that way*. At any rate, once I'd met
that person in my city and fallen in love, the other person would be
relegated to friend. That's how I would handle it anyway. Come to
think of it, I don't think I would even need to think about it; that
circuit seems to activate automatically in my brain.
If by some chance I ended up in the situation that you describe, I
would evaluate both relationships and choose the one that seemed the
"best" for me. I would think seriously about telling *both* parties;
although one might never find out about the other, it's amazing how
often they do. Especially if they live in the same city.
Brian
|
| 37.51 | Loving Two | AKOV06::PILOTTE | | Fri Feb 25 1994 09:14 | 12 |
| Re: caring about more than one person at a time
What if the case that you were married to someone and there were
voids in the marriage? Would you automatically divorce? Or try to work
on the voids?
What if you were to meet someone that filled those voids. And what if
you happen to fall for that person too? What then?
I can see how someone can love more than one person at a time. I also
can understand that it would potentially be very emotionally painful.
Judy
|
| 37.52 | I would *try* to work it out | TALLIS::NELSON | As long as I can dream.... | Tue Mar 01 1994 13:26 | 69 |
|
> What if the case that you were married to someone and there were
> voids in the marriage? Would you automatically divorce? Or try to work
> on the voids?
I assume you mean a "void of love". I would try to work on them.
I'm the type of person that tries to work on problems as soon as I
recognize them as such. I try to give a situation every possible
chance to work out; for me, it's easier to leave if that becomes the
only alternative, because at least I *know* that I gave it my best shot
and there was nothing more I could do. Problems never get solved by
burying your head in the sand, and rarely do they fix themselves. You
gotta sit down and talk about what's going on with your partner. The
trouble is, of course, it takes both people to fix it.
> What if you were to meet someone that filled those voids. And what if
> you happen to fall for that person too? What then?
As I said, I don't think that would happen with me. I don't know
for sure, but at least in the past when I've had problems in a
relationship I'm concentrating so much on fixing it that I don't really
give myself a chance to think of someone else.
For me, a classic case happened back in the early summer of '88. I
was dating someone, and at least from my end everything was going fine
and I was very happy. Unbeknownst to me, she was not happy, and wasn't
communicating it nor even giving out any signals. It turns out I
"expressed too much" for her (it took me years to understand what she
meant). Anyway, I went to an eye doctor's appointment and the
assistant there was very attractive, a lot of fun, and we had a great
time. In fact, she sorta hinted she was free for lunch, but I didn't
even pick up on it.
It's too bad, because actually the way things turned out I'm sure
she would have been much better for me than the person I was with at
the time. It was later that I figured out what was actually going on
and what I'd missed out on.
Come to think of it, that's not such a good example because there
was no void on my part at the time. Okay, I remember a relationship a
couple years back. I really loved the person, but I could see it was
not going to work due to outside factors. Shortly before it officially
ended, I met a few women that seemed interesting. However, I never
acted on it nor did I really even seriously consider it. Even though
the situation was not good, and was probably going to end, until it did
end I was emotionally committed to that one person. Sure, sometimes
you miss out on things like that previous situation but all in all I
feel it's the best way for me to be. (The other thing is that I was
not emotionally ready to be with anyone else anyway.)
> I can see how someone can love more than one person at a time. I also
> can understand that it would potentially be very emotionally painful.
I wasn't trying to imply that I thought it was "wrong" or "bad". I
was simply stating that *I* can't figure out how someone could let it
happen, because I'm so (I guess) different. I make my choices for me
and let others do the same.
Brian
|
| 37.53 | To cheat or not to cheat. | MIMS::ROBINSON_B | p_name request denied | Tue May 10 1994 12:04 | 12 |
|
I read that almost half of married men cheat on their spouses. A
third of the women cheated on thier husbands. Most of the people
interviewed said that it "just happened."
I think this is a load of bull. Nothing happens that you dont want
to. What makes people cheat on their mates? Do you think the people
are just not happy, or is there another reason?
Do you think something like that could "just happen" ?? Or is it
just another cop-out?
*B*
|
| 37.54 | just my opinion | VAXWRK::STHILAIRE | just dont judge me by my shoes | Tue May 10 1994 12:20 | 19 |
| re .53, I think there are a million reasons, and that it is possible
for it to just happen sometimes.
Think about your comment "Nothing happens that you dont want to" for a
minute. Isn't that a bit of an exaggeration? Things happen to people
all the time that they don't want to have happen. People get layed off
their jobs, they get sick and die, they get killed in accidents. And,
sometimes they may wind-up having sex when they really didn't want to
either. If life and the world were as ordered as you seem to think it
is, the planet wouldn't be in the mess it's in.
I think, as far as cheating goes, that people should mind their own
business, if all they want to do is judge others, and not truly
understand what the actual reasons might be. If you don't want to
cheat on your spouse, fine, don't. That's great, but don't presume to
judge others.
Lorna
|
| 37.55 | | QUARK::LIONEL | Free advice is worth every cent | Tue May 10 1994 12:33 | 6 |
| Re: .53
I believe it's a cop-out - see my reply .45. It doesn't "just happen" unless
you choose to let it happen.
Steve
|
| 37.56 | Think !!! | AKO588::PILOTTE | | Tue May 10 1994 13:08 | 5 |
| I can understand how it could just happen. I believe that the consequences are
not thought out thoroughly by either party before deciding to go forward. If
they were then I believe that it wouldnt just happen.
Comments?? Judy
|
| 37.57 | | QUARK::LIONEL | Free advice is worth every cent | Tue May 10 1994 13:37 | 7 |
| The trouble is that people DON'T think, and aren't willing to take
responsibility for their own actions. Having an affair isn't quite like
tripping over a bump in the sidewalk. The people who do these things are
ready with all sorts of rationalizations and excuses, none of which are
valid in my view.
Steve
|
| 37.58 | | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Why not ask why? | Tue May 10 1994 14:19 | 56 |
|
re .54 -
>People...sometimes...may wind-up having sex when they really didn't
>want to either. If life and the world were as ordered as you seem to
>think it is, the planet wouldn't be in the mess it's in.
Oh come-on Lorna. Life and the world and what people do arent just
a product of some random process, where whatever happens, happens.
There's actually an accountability to it all, in us all. We each
make a contribution toward healing or destroying the world - and the
others in it - through the moment to moment choices we make. Really?
So, someone with _just_ their "growing up in American society"
conditioning decides to take the fast-food route in dealing with a
problem they're having in their relationship. Rather than going into
the pain around what the problem really is, what can be done about it
and how much work that would take. Big suprise...
You're right in that it's nothing to judge that some folks choose to
live their lives at a shallow, superficial level - because it's just a
product of society's conditioning that we've all experienced. We _all_
have it, with varying degrees. If someone is willing to waste their
life by living one of "impurity" and "dull-mindedness" - that's their
business.
However, when the effects of that choice - that of someone's
refusal to even be accountable to what's happened to them along the
way - starts impacting the space in *my* life; the people in it, the
place where I live, it becomes my business if I so choose. At least,
they might hear about it from me. _That_ is perfectly okay.
Drunk driver for example. It's none of my business that he -
perhaps - so cant stand the part of himself which reminds him of his
father, that he just finds it easier to live day to day in the dullness
that the continual consumption of alcohol provides him. Now, if he's
driving alongside me on 495; we're both going 65 mph and I have a
carload of kids, I have an issue with this person's unwillingness to be
accountable to his own life-experience. I dont buy "Oh it's too hard"
or "It's not fair" or "I cant help myself".
In that case, I dont care what the reasons might be; I dont care
how awful this guys father was to him or how many beatings he got. I
could say "Well it's certainly a tradgedy that you had to experience
what you did in growing up!" But for him to cause or effect a probability
of pain and/or abuse on another human being because he refuses to be
accountable to that?
I have the same feelings toward those who'd "cheat" on their
spouses, rather than be accountable to whatever it is that allows them
to do so.
You could substitute "beat" for "cheat" above, and the statement
would be just as valid, as far as my feelings about it. Same thing -
Joe
|
| 37.59 | | DKAS::GALLUP | FEAR: False Expectations Appearing Real | Tue May 10 1994 17:28 | 16 |
| > Things happen to people
> all the time that they don't want to have happen. People get layed off
> their jobs, they get sick and die, they get killed in accidents. And,
> sometimes they may wind-up having sex when they really didn't want to
> either.
Lorna...This comparison makes absolutely no sense to me, could you explain
the correlation?
To me, the first three things you names are circumstances totally beyond
a person's control. Having sex is totally a personal choice (unless it's
rape) and I just can't see any correlation at all.
Thanks.
Kath
|
| 37.60 | Doesn't "just happen" | TALLIS::NELSON | Chase the Clouds Away | Tue May 10 1994 17:29 | 24 |
|
> I read that almost half of married men cheat on their spouses. A
> third of the women cheated on thier husbands. Most of the people
> interviewed said that it "just happened."
> I think this is a load of bull. Nothing happens that you dont want
> to. What makes people cheat on their mates? Do you think the people
> are just not happy, or is there another reason?
> Do you think something like that could "just happen" ?? Or is it
> just another cop-out?
I agree with you, Steve, and Joe -- it doesn't "just happen".
Whether it be consciously or unconsciously, people make choices.
Either way you should still be accountable.
All of Lorna's examples were examples of things that happen TO you,
without your consent. You have no choice in the matter. But with
this, you DO have a choice. Always. Exercise it.
Brian
|
| 37.61 | | DKAS::GALLUP | FEAR: False Expectations Appearing Real | Tue May 10 1994 17:37 | 19 |
| I have to agree with Steve, Brian, Joe, etc....
Having an affair....or simply having sex with another person while a person is
married is totally and completely a choice that person makes.
It doesn't "just happen"...if someone tells you that, it's a line of BS, and
it's a real clear indicator as to how much responsibility that person is
willing to take in their life for their actions.
I'm 100% responsible for my actions, and I find no problem holding another
person 100% responsible for theirs......nor do I have a problem with calling
them on it when they don't accept that responsibility.
A person can do whatever they want, of course...have an affair, not have an
affair, whatever.....but if they are going to do it, they can't expect anyone
to give them a pity party when they try and absolve themselves of the
consequences of their actions.
kath
|
| 37.62 | (No big deal) | JGO::BEX | JOHN BEX @JGO | Wed May 11 1994 06:45 | 20 |
| I don't understand the complexity written in this topic, let me ask a
question here. What is the difference between giving somebody a
handshake, or have sex with that person? Now, don't mis understand this
question, i am not trying to be rude here, but challenge the reader to
make a difference between a relation and sex with a person.
I am happely married, and we both consider our relationship very tight.
I feel emotionaly (still after 17 years of marriage) the same for my
wive as when we met, and even more. But our relationship became
stronger now because we know we can (without consequences) have sexual
"affairs" outside our relationship. We are very open about this
subject, and promised to each other to let each other know what and
when we do. We allow each other to have "dreams" and to realize them,
without damaging our relationship.
Maybe we in Europe (Netherlands) are more open about this subject??
Believe us, its no big deal but its depending on the quality and
strength and communication in your relationship.
John.
|
| 37.63 | | WECROW::HILL | In casual pursuit of serenity. | Wed May 11 1994 10:49 | 20 |
| re -1
>What is the difference between giving somebody a
> handshake, or have sex with that person?
1) I'll shake hands with a guy.
2) I'll shake hand in public.
3) I know of no known case where AIDS has been
caught shaking hands.
4) My wife never expressed any concern over who I
shook hands with.
5) I think of sex as something special and associate it with
deep emotions.
By the way, I am European.
Peter.
|
| 37.64 | | QUARK::LIONEL | Free advice is worth every cent | Wed May 11 1994 11:27 | 13 |
| Add:
6) You can't get pregnant by shaking hands.
There are some couples who don't consider sex with others to be "cheating";
if they really feel that way, that's fine. But I would say that a majority
of married couples at least claimed to promise sexual monogamy.
Be that as it may, the actual "sex act" is not what's central to "affairs"
but rather a broken promise and disrespect of the feelings of your spouse.
Steve
|
| 37.65 | you contract | TARKIN::BREWER | | Wed May 11 1994 11:50 | 14 |
|
the difference is what the married couple in question think
the difference is. If it is open and agreed to by both
people that sex is just sex and there is nothing more
to it...then, that is their agreement.
If either person feels differently about it, then there is
a problem. You have a contract that works for you. If the
contract were that each person was monogamous emotionally
AND sexually, then an affair would entail making a *choice*
to violate that contract...to breaking that commitment.
It's a choice. Decision process involved.
dotty
|
| 37.66 | | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Why not ask why? | Wed May 11 1994 13:18 | 42 |
|
Re .62 - John.
>wive as when we met, and even more. But our relationship became
>stronger now because we know we can (without consequences) have sexual
>"affairs" outside our relationship. We are very open about this
Given that this is *all* out in the open, there's no problem in
it. But your situation is presumably much different from the vast
majority. In that, while one level of this is "simply rubbing two
bodies together", another level of it involves the degree of dishonesty -
which is of profound importance in any couples relationship.
I mean if sex is as casual as you coming home, putting down your
briefcase and calling out "Hey Honey - guess who I nailed this
afternoon!" and that's perfectly okay with your spouse, it's something
you've worked out as part of your relationship - I cant judge you, your
relationship or that choice of action.
However, if it's something where "who" or "when" or "what" or any
of that is being hidden or kept in secret from your spouse - that's
where it crosses the line from being okay to being deceitful - that's
where issues around dishonesty are going to start effecting things in
your relationship.
I think that one reason why "most" couples are not as liberal as
you are, is because of the ordinary difficulty people have around
issues of dishonesty. I think it's quite ordinary for most people to
feel a sense of 'dishonesty', should they go off and have some sexual
encounter that's extramarital. I know I would...and I know that feeling
would arise in me spontaneously. I - er - wouldnt have to go looking
for it.
I think most people would feel that - whether their spouse gave
them the "OK" to do so or not. That you or your wife do not
(apparently), that you've gotten past it, around it or though it
somehow, is pretty extrordinary - in the sense that one's awareness of
themselves being or having been "dishonest" in the area of sex is *such*
a heavy state of mind. Just as a feeling that ordinarily arises given
that experience.
Joe
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| 37.67 | | LOWELL::GUGEL | no unit of time less than a season | Wed May 18 1994 17:13 | 13 |
|
There are fundamentally only two reasons I have
ever found why I would never have sex outside of
my marriage, and why I would counsel others the
same in similar situations.
1) People can get hurt.
2) I could lose what I've got and want to keep.
Aside from that, I don't very much respect for
people who do have affairs.
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| 37.68 | | MIMS::ROBINSON_B | Lean,mean,(but sensitive)machine | Thu May 19 1994 09:22 | 10 |
|
<----
I have NO respect for them.
Brian
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| 37.69 | Anonymous Reply | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Why not ask why? | Thu May 19 1994 14:11 | 211 |
|
The following entry is being posted anonymously. You may contact the
author by mail, by sending your communication to me and I'll be glad to forward
it on. Your message will be forwarded with your name attached, unless you
request otherwise.
Joe
* * *
A romance that turned out to be an affair
with a
positive ending (thus far)
Until a few months ago, I was seeing a woman who was married. I had
noticed her and had said to myself 'how come all the nice ones are
taken?' She had pursued me last year until I finally set a trap for
her to see if she would admit to liking me. She admitted her love for
me last summer. Because she was married, I told her that I would have
nothing to do with her until she told her husband that she wanted a
divorce and at least started the process.
She had convinced me that there were 'ireconcileable differences' in
their marriage. Her mother had told her early on to 'go have an
affair and get it out of your system.' I never thought for once that
it would turn out to be just an affair. I would not do that to
myself. I was in it for the long haul, not an affair. My now ex-wife
(who is never wrong, she told me so herself) had told me that I would
eventually marry this woman, and my sister had told my mother the same
(though my sister admits to being wrong at times).
This woman called my bluff and told her husband and the fireworks
began. Our relationship blossomed quickly. Soon we were seeing each
other every day, sometimes twice a day. We took weekend trips
together and throughly enjoyed each others company and love. For both
of us, it was a new experience and something that had been pent up for
a long time, me 23 years of marriage, at that time divorcing, and for
her after many years and starting a divorce.
Seeing each other was not easy. Her husband was into denial. He had
to have known (he was advised by one of her close ex-friends) more
than what was obvious. Things got a little tense on a couple of
ocassions, but all in all they were Ok from my end. On her end, the
tension was quite high at home. She was seeing an individual
counselor and together they we seeing a marriage councellor. She said
that she wanted to help him understand what had gone wrong and be able
to survive after. A virtual litany of issues came up about sex, his
family etc. He had had no idea that these things had bothered her so
much.
Our love was filled with so much caring and romance. We would
exchange cards, musical tapes and gifts. I would put together
cassettes full of special love songs and sometimes write poetry for
her.
She throughly enjoyed my hobby and all my friends associated with it.
She is a real beauty, inside and out. A special person.
At first her being 10 years younger and so good looking made me a
little uncomfortable. In time I got over this but I could see
age/generational differences in some aspects of our lives. In the
deepest recesses of my brain, I always thought that it would end
though. "If seems too good to be true..."
Our love grew deeper and deeper, Each time I thought it couldn't get
any better, it did! We were so in love.
Earlier this year, due to the stress of seeing me, her husband's
(still living at home) sometimes erretic behavior and feelings of
guilt, she started to get a specialized series of medical problems.
The more stress, and sometimes the more she saw me, the more problems.
We tried experiments of her not seeing me for a weekend and the
medical problems stayed away.
As this year progressed, she became more concerned about her future.
She was a part time student working toward a profession. She was
concerned about her children and being in poverty. She had come from
a divorced family when she was a teen. Prior to that her family had
been quite well off.
A month ago, she met me one evening with her wedding ring on and told
me that she had to give it one last try with her husband to make sure
that she was doing the right thing. I agreed with her and went so far
as to suggest that she must sleep with him (she hadn't for 8 months)
to see if that would be OK. He had somehow humiliated her in bed
once, I don't know how though. Sex with him was a turn off so she
said.
We drop to just talking. This was to be for one month. I told her I
would wait.
She revised the estimate to 6 months. I told her I could not wait 6
months on a maybe. She accepted this. I have started back into the
singles mode.
She has now decided that she will stay with him. I have questioned
her on this to make sure that this is what she really wants. During
the past few months she had thought or said the following: (they are
moving into a different house in a while)
She wished that she was moving into the new house with me
She has had a morbid dream about her husband
She picked up the single magazine when I told her that I was
going to meet someone in there to see if she could figure out
who
She picked up a book on sexual techniques that she is keeping
hidden from her husband
Stated that somethings are OK and calmer. somethings are not
as good as with me
That something 'really bad' would now have to change at home
for her to consider coming back to me
again
That she will love me forever
That she still wants to be friends
That I am her best friend
I am at a loss. She is the best thing that ever happened to me. I
truely love her like no one else before. In talking with her, I get
the distinct impression (also go this from one of her friends) that
she was settling for security and monetary comfort instead of love and
true happiness. Her husband probably figured he could not compete
with me in the love field, but he could walk all over me as far a
income, present and future was concerned. In some ways, I think he
bought her back.
I need to get on with my life. I would love to have her by my side.
We get along so well together (and me with her children too. They
even ask her when we are going to xxx again with me [I am sure that
goes over real well..])
I love her so that I want what is best for her. If being with her
husband is really best for her than I can accept that and the hurt
that I will go through. Listening to her, and thinking about the
things she has said makes me think that she is doing this for safety
and convience. That really hurts. I gave my all to this relationship
and so did she. If she settles for OK now, she will be back to this
square at some time in the future when her children are older and it
is mostly her and him. I don't want her to have that happen all over
again. I don't want to have this hurt and know that she is not doing
this for herself and her heart. I have told her, and so have others
that she must do it for herself, not for me, or her children, or her
husband, or security.
I wish them all the best and I hope she will be happy with this
decision for the rest of their lives. I even went so far as to call
him to arrange a meeting to try and make ammends and discuss little
things that he might do to at least appear to be more loving. I told
him not to tell her because these things had to come from him, not me.
He didn't listen and told her. I wanted to give them the best
possible chance at this and he blew it. I was not doing this to rub
it in (I did not intend to discuss anything about our relationship).
I really want what is best for her. Oh well, his loss.
They have the only deeply troubled marriage out of about 10 that I
know of that have a happy ending... Her husband should consider
himself a very lucky man. Not too many men get a second chance. If I
had been more forceful in pushing her towards the divorce early on, we
would be at a different square now.
I really believe that I am a better person for having known her and
she for having known me. I just wish the love story had had a happy
ending for me. If it has a truely happy ending for her, then I can
live with the loss and accept it. I still want what is best for her.
Isn't that what love is?
She has convinced herself that she is doing the right thing for
herself. After meeting her for a coffee the other night and talking I
can sense otherwise. She will be back here in some number of years.
They are moving to a different home soon and will have all the stress
that goes along with that. Her husband is working all kinds of OT to
carry the burden that buying a house w/o having sold the present one
entails. She is talking about getting multiple horses for the family
to ride at their new 'farm'. She is substituting things for love and
I think she knows it. She is just too scared I guess to deal with
love, life and 'affairs' of the heart.
I try never to say never. If you had told me a year ago that I would
have done some of the things that I have done in the past 12 months, I
would have called you crazy. Never say never...
I think after this I will say never again with someone who is not free
to commit.
Some people think that either she or I or both are bad for having done
this. Well everyone is entitled to their opinion. All the time this
was going on, I tried to advise her as best I could as to how to not
hurt him as badly. And maybe in some small way, him being angry at me
prevented him from being more angry at his wife, making the chances of
a split less certain.
Time will tell. We are still friends and still see each other as
friends ocassionally and share what is going on in our lives and in
town.
I had recently given her the last cassette of love songs that I had
put together for her. It was unfinished. I just duplicated what I
had done already. She remarked after hearing it as to how wonderful
it was and wherever did I get all of those wonderful songs. I told
her "they came from my heart..."
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| 37.70 | | MKOTS3::DIONNE | | Wed Jun 08 1994 12:14 | 10 |
| <- Did I miss the positive ending somewhere? I don't THINK I read it
as an ending at all! I suppose my perspective is that since the
woman returned to her husband, and is attempting a reconciliation with
him, this might be a positive action, but this is a long way from an
ending, IMO.
I'd like to get a REAL update in about 3 years.
The cynic in me doesn't believe for a minute that with this history,
these folks have a chance at a intimate or lasting marriage.
|
| 37.71 | and... whos the winner? | MROA::MAHONEY | | Tue Jun 28 1994 10:33 | 15 |
| No, it does not have a happy ending or an ending at all... it
perpetuates hurt on all parts... the husband (how awful he must feel,
being "second course", the woman, sleeping with one or the other, the
lover, being left out, neglected or just waiting "his turn" if she feels
like it... and the three of them hurting... and risking their lives in the
process...(with this sleeping around business). To add torment to
missery, her mother really "behaved" unlike a mother and gave her the
worst advice she could... "have an affair and get it off your
system"... whow... the mother is treating her own daughter as a slut...
It pains me that some of you could see this mess as a "possitive" ending
who, wins here? I don't get it.
(I must be missing something big time)
Where is the happy ending to this "soap opera"?
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| 37.72 | Anonymous Reply | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Why not ask why? | Wed Jun 29 1994 16:45 | 57 |
|
The following entry is being posted anonymously. You may contact the
author by mail, by sending your communication to me and I'll be glad to forward
it on. Your message will be forwarded with your name attached, unless you
request otherwise.
Joe
* * *
RE .71
>No, it does not have a happy ending or an ending at all...
Well it depends upon you perspective, seriously.
The husband got what he wanted; his wife back. I personally think the price
(read that $$) he paid and is paying is too high. He needs her and wants her
regardless of her past or faults. That is his choice. In the long run will it
be worth it? I don't happen to think so. That is just my opinion. Again she has
mentioned horses (plural). I saw them dancing at a function a month ago. During
a slow dance they were about an inch apart. That kind of tells me something.
His family history for longevity is not good. Maybe he will kill himself to
provide for her. He admitted that to someone I know that he was working all
kinds of hours to catch up on bills and provide for her and that was before the
new house.
The woman:
She, like everybody else must live with herself. The fact that she could turn
off emotions so (relatively) easily is a surprise to me. But then I guess I
didn't really know her too well after all. She has made her bed so to speak.
The other man:
I will survive, wiser and hopefully less foolish and more observant in the
future. I am no longer an alternative as far as I am concerned. I would
not take her back at this point. The relationship has ended. The only thing
that I ever had found wrong with her was that she could spend money. Her choice
of his money over my love confirms that for me. I can only think of the
Eagles song and lyrics from the mid '70's; Lying Eyes.
Others:
Their children will grow up in a 2 parent household. There may not be too much
affection shown between them to the children, I don't know. The mother, I
never thought of her telling her daughter to be a 'slut' but I guess that
is what she was saying.
Misc:
Yes, it was not planned that way, but it did turn into a "soap opera"
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| 37.73 | Affairs Hurt | COMET::RALSTON | Individualists Unite | Thu Jun 30 1994 13:37 | 11 |
| Sexual affairs hurt both partners self-esteem and cause the trust part
of the relationship to suffer. However, sexual affairs hidden from
one's partner are deceptive and ,therefore, dishonest and destructive.
Moreover, such affairs are usually to restricted by their secrecy.
Honesty and rationality are the foundations of happiness, pleasure,
love and a long relationship. My wife of 21 years and myself have to
high opinions of each other and ourselves to risk such childish and
destructive actions.
...Tom
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