Conference quark::human_relations

    
    	re: Anon.
    
    	Wow.  Does *this* sound familiar.  Other than the parenting aspect
    	of it, your marriage sounds exactly like what mine was.  I married
    	rather young after having already lived with Cary for a year and
    	a half.  We were married for two years and are in the process of
    	divorce right now.  He is a wonderful person and will make a good
    	husband for the right woman, it just wasn't me.  A friend of mine
    	summed it up pretty well.  I had a wedding, not a marriage.  Our
    	interests changed, and we stopped spending time together.  We 
    	co-existed but that was about it.
    
    	I hope you find the answers you're looking for and hopefully your
    	marriage won't end like mine did.  I know it was the right thing
    	for both of us though, and we've remained friends.  If you and
    	your spouse can't work things out, I hope you can at least part
    	on good terms.  Bitterness only makes it harder.
    
    	Best wishes
    
    	JJ
    
    	

    Yep, I'll echo this one.  I spent 2-1/2 years in a relationship where
    we had few common interests.  My partner was "anti-intellectual" and
    belittled me constantly about my interest in technology, politics,
    business, and other things.
    
    My partner seemed to be home most of the time, and never made me feel
    very comfortable about pursuing things outside the home.  Our final
    dispute centered around a piece of software which I had decided to
    spend some time learning at home, and which was tying up "too much" of
    my time.
    
    I don't know if there's a way to fix this problem once you've found
    yourself with it; counseling is a good idea.  I know I'll be more
    careful to explore common interests before getting too involved in the
    future.
    
    -rich
    Mass Storage Engineering  SHR3-1/W7     DTN:  237-2124
    [email protected]                   508-841-2124

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				Steve






    RE: Nothing in common.
    
    It sounds like you haven't given your marriage much of a chance. 
    Marriages are filled with ups and downs, compromises and sacrifices. It
    doesn't sound like you're doing much of either, why do you think they
    say for better or for worse?
    
    It also sounds like your mind is already made up - you have already
    found someone with whom you believe "the perfect relationship" would
    exist - counseling will not work with this person on your mind. 
    
    Here is some good advise, no one is perfect, no marriage is perfect.
    This other person may look perfect but once your relationship with this
    person grows you probably would find the same things occurring as you
    are experiencing now. After all you and JD found plenty of things to do
    in common when you where courting. If you can, get this person out of
    your life while working on your problems. Confiding you personal
    relationship with a member of the  opposite sex (with whom you would
    like to get to know better if your marriage fails) only leads to
    trouble and I'm sure would hurt JD very much if she/he  found out
    (almost as much as cheating IMHO). 
    
    It sounds like the pressure is on for the two of you to have 
    stimulating conversations and only happy times. Relax, it takes lots of
    effort to make a marriage work, your giving up to easily. Compromise!
    Do something JD would like. When was the last time you brought home a
    card or something special for each other. Go back to those courtship
    days and revitalize your marriage!
    

    To .0
    
    Fear not. If you want your marriage to survive and flourish, you will
    both find the strength to make it successful. In doing so, perhaps you
    should take a step back from you and JD and ask yourself;
    
    "What am I expecting out of a marriage....specifically  - this marriage?"
    
    "What part will it serve in my life?" 
    
    "What do I expect from my spouse?"
    
    "Have I expressed these expectations to him/her?"
    
    Then ask JD to ask himself the questions as well. 
    
    Once you have both contemplated these questions for a while(give
    yourselves a few days or as much time as you both mutually agree on)
    take a weekend and talk about it. I mean REALLY talk about it.
    
    Example: You mentioned that you and JD talked about having a family.
    One is ready the other is not. To understand your expecations of
    parenting, talk about it. If you both agree that parenting is a major
    part of your life and you decide to pursue it, what do you expect JD to 
    contribute to the parenting effort? What will you contribute? Will 
    parenting become the sole focus of both your lives recognizing that your 
    own interests, desires, goals, ambitions etc will be overshadowed by the 
    new life that you want to create. Can you live with this? Do you
    realize that parenting is a long term obligation? As the saying goes;
    
    You can divorce your spouse but you can NEVER divorce your kids!
    
    In addition to understanding your expectations, you mentioned you were
    creating a list of what is good and bad in your relationship. 
    
    Interesting.....but before you deem something bad, determine if it
    really is BAD or perhaps it just needs IMPROVEMENT! Perhaps you see
    badness because you cannot or will not see the goodness in it.
    Remember, a diamond is a diamond. The only difference is how much
    work you put into it and whether or not it shines the way you expect it
    to.
    
    The final statement is...done quit yet! Thats the easy, no hassle way
    out. Marriage is sharing, caring and working towards common
    expectations. As my father used to say;
    
    Marriage is like a camera...you only get out of it what you put into
    it!
    
    Good Luck
    
    
    Bruce @KAO

    You have to give it a chance. Most likely you are both going to have
    different interests, so a good start is to become interested in the
    other's hobbies. When I first met my husband who is a big time car
    fanatic, I could not identify a Chevy from a Ford.....now I can
    identify the make of any car coming down the road:-) You learn to like
    what the other is interested in. Beleive me it works :-)
    
    If you dont have things in common, find a common interest. I just
    started fishing with my husband and love it (even though I only caught
    a few kivers ;-)
    
    

My husband and I also have no common interests, but we took a different 
approach that .5.  We've learned to sort of combine interests so that we
can each do what we like, but we get to do it together.  He loves to ski,
so he either goes during the week, or on the weekend where we always take
our car.  While he skis with friends, I go shopping or just go checking out
the sights. Then we meet for dinner and go out dancing or something.  One
trip, I brought my homework with me as I was in grad school, so I got all
my studying done while he was on the slopes, and we still got to spend some
time together.  I love to sew and do crafts and need some time alone for
that, so he arranges to go out sailing with his friends sometimes so that
I can have a whole day to myself to spend with my sewing machine. That
way, we both get to do what we like.  I've found a little creativity can
be great in helping both of us get to do what we want, but still get to 
spend some time together.  And it's not unusual for us to think of 'quality
time' as spending a night in the family room just watching tv, or with
me working on the tube and him watching tv. We're content to just be in
the same room although we don't necessarily have to be doing the same
activity.  Most of our time for talking has always been in the shower in
the morning, and this has become especially true now that we have children
and the mornings are about the only time we really get to ourselves.

We have found that although we don't have many common interests, we have
common values and tend to prioritize things the same way.  We both put
family way before anything else including work, and we respect each other's
opinions and look for input from each other on most decisions. We have some
basic groundrules that we work by.  We don't expect each other to give up
interests, nor do we expect to have the same set of friends.

We've been married 10 years now, so this seems to work for us.

Thanks everybody for your input!

The toughest thing that we've had to go through over the last 3-4 months is
the realization of just how different we are. Not only different from a
what interests/hobbies each of us has, but we are significantly different
people in nature ourselves. One of us has a much better sense of humor than
the other. One of us is very structured and organized, while the other is very
spontaneous and unscheduled. One of us is very hyper, the other more relaxed.
One of us is very quick and responsive, while the other is very methodical in
their actions. One finds solace simply sharing a roof over our heads, the
other wants a lot more.

Unfortunately, these opposite characteristics seem to clash in almost every
moment of our lives! They say opposites attract - while that may be true at
first, in the long run their may be little to grasp to.

Re. 3 said something about "you found plenty of things to do" when we were 
courting. That is the problem. We didn't realize that everything we did
in this stage almost always involved other people. We didn't realize that
we weren't spending enough time together to get to know EACH OTHER. Only
until the last few months did we realize this, and have tried to spend quality
time together alone. We even tried doing the same things alone that we did with
others. But our conversations in these moments, due to our different 
personalities, our either non-existant or confrontational. Unfortunately, 
because of our different personalities and different interests, these times 
have been unfullfilling for both of us. We've made attempts at finding more 
things to have in common, but no luck thus far. By the way, we still bring 
home "treats" to each other - homemade ice creams, clothes, greeting cards, 
etc. We still do love each other tremendously. But what each other wants from 
life is very different. It just took us much longer into the relationship to 
figure this out. We didn't ask and answer all the right questions before we 
got married.

RE. 3 As far as the "other person" goes - this other person came along well
after we have been working at our problems. Once I figured out what I 
needed in a relationship (we get smarter as we grow older, don't we?) if I
were to spend the rest of my life with someone, my next thought was - what 
if I'm just too far fetched? What are the probabilities that this person 
even exists, let alone finding him/her? Months after working on my
marriage did this person surface. Although I have no idea at this
point if anything would ever happen between me and this third party if we
were to divorce, I am convinced that the qualities that are important to 
me do exist in one person...

Re. 4 said something to the effect of "Never divorce your kids". Another
major problem right now. I grew up in a broken family, and know what I
went through growing up without a father. Because of this, I really need to
feel confident in the foundation of our marraige before raising a family.
This we don't have right now. Even if counseling and our efforts help to make
our marraige stronger, I can't see myself being a parent for at least another
4-5 years. JD has already told me that unless I come around this year, JD
wants out. This parenthood thing is a huge goal of JD's, and if I can't
provide it, I don't want to get in JD's way of reaching something very
important in JD's life.

Overall:

In love? Yes. But what each of us are looking for out of marraige is very
very different. Neither of us are right or wrong, its just that marraige
is viewed by us very differently. We've tried to come to some common ground
with our different views, but things are still aways apart. I'm just
not too hopeful that either one of us can change our personalities that
much to accomodate what the other needs/wants. Sure we can change to find
some new hobbies/interests that we both like. But the personality difference
will most likely always be there, and I'm not sure if we can overcome these
dirrerences ourselves. I'm sure many marraiges are made up of vastly
different personalities. But we ourselves wish our personalities were more
alike.

Re: .7
    
    Your situation is sounding more and more like my own, as you describe
    it more.  The key here is the personality clash, rather than simple
    common interests.  Love is not enough by itself.  And opposites do not
    attract, despite what so many people say.
    
    I know a couple who split recently after three years together.  During
    the last few months they were together, one of them met someone new.
    This new someone became a real destructive influence, and although this
    "replacement" relationship has seemed to go well since their breakup,
    it seems unlikely to last, having been begun under such circumstances.
    
    Right now I'm in the midst of a 12-month period in which I've told
    myself not to get serious about any new relationships, until the wounds
    from my old one have healed and I've learned more about my new
    identity.  (I think everyone's identity changes a bit during each
    relationship, and particularly after a breakup when you've had a chance
    to do some soul-searching about what you're really looking for.)  I'm
    getting courted so it's sometimes hard to say I'm not serious about a
    new relationship.
    
    But my advice regarding this new potentially-special someone is to
    avoid contact wherever possible and to keep it strictly professional if
    you have to maintain contact.  Emphasize that you care about them but
    that at this time in your life you need to work through the issues of
    your marriage.  If at some future time you're single, *wait* for at
    least several months before renewing contact with this person, if you
    want to keep your "ace in the hole" intact instead of going from one
    bad situation to another.  Getting involved immediately on the rebound
    is a bad idea since you're going through so many changes.
    
    But I'm getting ahead of myself.  Find out if your spouse really wants
    to save the marriage.  This will really require a concession on the
    timing of any childbirth decisions you make, since now's not the time.
    Figure out what concession you might make in return, and ask yourself
    if there's anything of such magnitude you're willing to give up to make
    yourself happy.  (This marriage has the potential to make you happy,
    despite its problems, so think long and hard.)
    
    -rich
    Mass Storage Engineering OEM D&SG  SHR3-1/W7     DTN:  237-2124
    [email protected]                            508-841-2124

    	Re .anon
    
    >Another major problem right now. I grew up in a broken family, and know
    >what I went through growing up without a father. Because of this, I
    >really need to feel confident in the foundation of our marraige before
    >raising a family. This we don't have right now. Even if counseling and
    >our efforts help to make our marraige stronger, I can't see myself
    >being a parent for at least another 4-5 years. JD has already told me
    >that unless I come around this year, JD wants out.

    	Umm, does "JD" know this and what it means? That, given your
    background, being a little apprehensive (like, lets hold this off for 
    4-5 years) about becoming a parent is sometimes a perfectly natural
    response? If JD thinks you're going to come around *this year*, I hope
    they're not holding their breath! Becoming "parent" when you're from a
    broken home often carries with it tremendous context-associative
    memories and scripts. These could start to run in ones sub-conscious
    as soon as the relationship context changes to "we're a family now".
    That stuff isnt something one works out in a few weeks of couples
    counseling...
    
    	I dont know if you're a potential mom or dad, but in either case 
    it's a lot to deal with. A mom, having abandonment issues from her past,
    often cant help but wonder if her husband is going to leave, because at
    some level "it's been written"; that's what dads do. A dad, having
    abandonment issues along with the scripts as his framework; his
    model of 'father', often cant help but feel like leaving the marriage
    because again, 'that's what dads do' at some deep level.
    
    	Now this all isnt necessarily so and there's plenty of exceptions
    of wonderful moms and dads who just had awful childhoods. It's just
    my guess as to what might be really happening, given what you said.
    No one knows just what it is that allows some people to get beyond
    it all on their own. But it's something to investigate and maybe
    it can be something you both can take a common interest in, seeing
    as you both stand to benefit from your recovery of what happened
    to you in your childhood - specifically your childhood losses in
    having to grow up without a dad.
    
    	Sincerely,
    
    	Joe

    Please, PLEASE don't have a child unless you really want to.
    If you don't feel you are ready, then you probably are not,
    and will not be happy with the outcome. 
    
    Your scenario sounds so familiar.  My ex and I were married
    for 7 years.  He is a very, very nice person.  We had absolutely
    nothing in common.  We separated for 9 months after we were
    married for 1.5 years.  We each had separate counselors plus a
    marriage counselor during that time.  We got back together and
    gave it another try.  We bought a condo thinking it would 
    "ground" us.  We drifted further and further apart, to the point
    that we couldn't even find common interests.  We spent very little
    time together.  We got separate bedrooms.  Two years ago we
    got divorced.  He is now happily remarried.  I am now happily
    living with an SO who gives me much of the emotional closeness
    I needed and didn't get from my ex.  We both have found people
    who are much more compatible.  It was a tough two years, but I
    wouldn't trade it now for the marginal comfort of the familiar
    but miserable.
    
    My advice to you would be to try everything you can if you love
    each other.  Take the suggestions of the counselors and work with
    them.  Try as hard as you can.  Then, if you still can't make it
    work, you can part company with the knowledge that you did 
    everything you could.  I have found that was a comfort for 
    both of us initially and helped us get through the divorce. 
    
    Best of luck to you both
    
    Mary-Michael

    This topic intriques me because I am currently in a relationship in
    which we don't have that much "stuff" in common but my love for him is
    so pure and honest that I just can't walk away from him because he
    doesn't fit the "Hallmark" image of what I always thought was going to
    be the perfect mate for me.  He doesn't "do" what I do.  He isn't as
    educated as I am.  He's blue-collar and I'm a professional woman.  His
    life has presented him with some real difficulties but he has survived.
    Sometimes his poor grammer or his way of expressing himself have
    embarrassed me but I believe that that is my problem not his.  He is
    offering me many opportunities to learn patience and tolerance.  He is
    teaching me how to express true unconditional love and I
    am extremely grateful.
    
    I would recommend a good book that deals with Love and relationships: 
    A "Return to Love" by Marianne Williamson.  It has put everything into
    prespective for me.
    
    I've been down this relationship road many times and finally in my
    middle years I just might be getting a real understanding of just what
    is going on.  I used to have this mental checklist to measure who I was
    involved with or whom I was thinking of getting involved with.  What a
    waste of energy.  Now I just accept who is in front of me and deal
    with things instead of running everytime HE makes a mistake (in my
    eyes).  This is truely a freeing experience and I walk around a lot
    "lighter" these days.
    
    I also still stay involved in the activities that I enjoy whether he
    joins me or not.  I will hold onto me and let him take care of himself.
    
    Hope this helps,
    
    Julia 
    

Wanted to let everyone know how things are progressing/digressing:


RE .1:
>        He is a wonderful person and will make a good
>    	husband for the right woman, it just wasn't me.  A friend of mine
>    	summed it up pretty well.  I had a wedding, not a marriage.  Our
>    	interests changed, and we stopped spending time together.  We 
>    	co-existed but that was about it.

So true!!
    
Re: .2
>    My partner seemed to be home most of the time, and never made me feel
>    very comfortable about pursuing things outside the home.      

Also still very real and true.
    

Re: .3

I took your advice, and separated myself from this member of the opposite
sex. There was never anything more than a friendship between us, but on
your advice, and advice of others, I distanced myself so as to not cloud
the picture. Thanks! It has helped put things into a realistic picture.

Re: .4
    
Thanks for all of those insightful questions! I did take the time to answer
them. I find that I am looking for someone more like myself. Whether this
is healthy or not I'm not so sure. 

RE: .5

>    You have to give it a chance. Most likely you are both going to have
>    different interests, so a good start is to become interested in the
>    other's hobbies. 

Our counselor has suggested this - its something that we definitely need to 
add to our lives if we're gonna make it...    
    
RE: .6

Sounds similar to our relationship, except I would hope to do more things
together with my spouse vs. doing things simultaneously, yet separately.
But thanks for the insight!

Re: .7
    
>    Your situation is sounding more and more like my own, as you describe
>    it more.  The key here is the personality clash, rather than simple
>    common interests.  Love is not enough by itself.  And opposites do not
>    attract, despite what so many people say.

YES! But my spouse doesn't see this as a big problem - although I do...
    
>    But my advice regarding this new potentially-special someone is to
>    avoid contact wherever possible and to keep it strictly professional if
>    you have to maintain contact.  

And I did follow through with this - it has helped. Thanks. I think I was
temporarily attracted only because it was so different and opposite of the
pain I'm going through right now. Nothing ever happened, and I'm glad it 
didn't. 

RE: .9

>    	Umm, does "JD" know this and what it means? That, given your
>    background, being a little apprehensive (like, lets hold this off for 
>    4-5 years) about becoming a parent is sometimes a perfectly natural
>    response? If JD thinks you're going to come around *this year*, I hope
>    they're not holding their breath! 

Jd does know this. I can hear JD's words ringing in my ears to this day -
"If we don't have kids by dd/mm/yy, I'm leaving". Given my background, this
won't happen overnight. But with parenthood being such a priority for JD,
enough so that JD is willing to bail out of the marriage if this issue
isn't resolved to JD'S liking - I don't know how to deal with this one...

RE: .10
    
>    My advice to you would be to try everything you can if you love
>    each other.  Take the suggestions of the counselors and work with
>    them.  Try as hard as you can.  Then, if you still can't make it
>    work, you can part company with the knowledge that you did 
>    everything you could.  I have found that was a comfort for 
>    both of us initially and helped us get through the divorce. 
    
I'll be sure to make that extra effort - maybe I haven't been trying as
hard as I can yet - but I'm willing to give it a better shot!

Thanks again for all of your thoughts and concerns...