Conference quark::human_relations

I was in a similar situation before my wife got pregnant. 
Although we had agreed that we did want children, I didn't
feel the time was right. My wife desperately wanted a child
and, through accident, or maybe through my stupidity, she 
fell pregnant. 

The pregnancy brought us closer together, and my daughter,
now 20 months old, means everything to me. I love my daughter,
but if I had my time over, I would still have preferred to 
wait. 

I'm not sure how relevant this is. If your partner is adamant 
that he (I take it you are female) does not want children,
then maybe he'll never feel like I do. 


	Ian

Ref .0:

�          I am caught in the following dilemma: Should I stay in this
�          marriage with the risk that our future position  on
�          children will be opposite? Or force a decision point on
�          this marriage  based on our current positions on children?    
   
FWIW:

My *first* marriage ended after 8 years, no children, no hard feelings,
etc. I realize now, that we got married for all the wrong reasons, and I 
was too immature to even know what I wanted. While dating, we agreed that 
we would never want to lose our freedom or dilute our financial capabilities 
by having kids. During the eight years, we discovered that what we had in
common in the beginning, wasn't adequate to sustain the relationship.

There seemed to be something 'missing' in our lives. We gravitated to other
areas of personal fulfillment, career, lots of pets, material aquisition,
travel, etc., and grew further apart all the while. The more we did together
in our search for happiness, the less we enjoyed who we were doing it with.
Ultimately, we couldn't remember why we were married at all. Toward the end 
of the relationship, I started to feel that having children might have kept 
us together. Maybe we divorced each other because one wanted kids, and the 
other didn't. Maybe the marriage would have been worse if we had had 
children. I honestly think children can make a good marriage better, and
a bad marriage much worse.

I've been married for 15 years the *second* time, two kids, pets, travel,
careers, lots of stuff, etc., and couldn't be happier about it.


�				My gut feel right
�          now is that I will want and need both.

    
There's your answer... Tell him how you feel - the sooner the better -

Best of luck

/Bob    

Speak to your husband about your concerns.

He may change his mind later too.  You did.  Why might not he also ?

Also, talk with each other about other apsects of the relationship and how
you both feel.  If this children issue feels to you like it might make you
leave the marriage, there are probably other issues too, and this isn't
the only one.


Disagreements about whether to have children don't break up marriages.  But
unwillingness to somehow find the courage to speak the things about which
we fear our partner's response often breaks up marriages.

/Eric

    Folks, don't assume that the author of .0 is female. I assume that the
    author avoided using gender-specific language to imply that the decision
    to have children is the equal responsibility of both parents. Please
    respect the author's wishes and treat them as if they could be either male
    or female.

    - Jim

    If the author is female, it's a more time-critical decision.  If the
    author is male, giving his spouse more time to come 'round doesn't
    close off his options in the same way.
    
    I agree with Eric that you need to have a heart-to-heart talk with your
    spouse.  However, I would caution that in .0, you presented yourself as
    waffling on the issue of children, but if this is something you'd be
    willing to leave your marriage over, that's no longer waffling.
    
    	Sharon
    

Talk to your partner about it to try to explore both of your feelings' on
the matter.  You may find that you are closer than you think, or that your
partner saying that they don't want children has a reason behind it that you
didn't know about.  Perhaps knowing the reasoning behind your partner's
feelings on not having children will change your situation somewhat, and you
may find that a definite 'no' is really a 'maybe later', but s/he feels
pressured into an answer and defaults to 'no'.

In my situation, when we got married, my husband didn't want children, and
I wasn't sure.  We both gradually changed our minds, but didn't really mention
anything to the other.  It turned out that we had both made the decision to
have children, and neither wanted to mention the change of heart to the
other.  His brother had a similar attitude, and now they are expecting
their first child after 5 years of marriage.  In the case of my husband
and his brother, neither of them wanted to have children because they 
were afraid they wouldn't be able to be good fathers due to a fairly
miserable, abusive, unstable (in my husband's case) childhood, and they
didn't want to pass on any of that parenting style to their own children.

So I wonder if your partner has some particular reason why children are not
wanted that may shed some light on this.  In my own case, lots of talking
and interaction with other children gave my husband (and his brother) the
needed confidence in their parenting skills to take the plunge.

I'm also confronting a decision about having children and would
like to share some thinking.

Since I was young, I always assumed I would someday have children.
Now I'm not sure.  I see two questions: do we want to raise a
family; and do we want to have our own biological children?

Passing on the gift of life is one of the most profound and rewarding
choices in the human experience.  I'm not sure I will always be
comfortable with a decision not to have children.  In our time however,
the Earth is in crisis.  Human consumption and population growth
are shutting down the life systems of the planet upon which we
are totally dependent.  In my head, I know humanity will not
survive if we do not learn to accept responsibility for the well
being of the whole system.  We are taking too much.

I'm trying to understand what it would mean for us to consciously
choose to contribute toward the quality of life without having our own
children.  How will we fill our lives with people we love, meaning,
and purpose?

In talking with some thoughtful couples with and without
children well beyond the child raising years, I've come
to believe that marriages based on a desire for children may
not survive beyond the children growing up.  I think for marriage
to thrive, couples need to work together toward some common good
that is larger than themselves.  As one teacher put it "is there
something big enough that attracts you both?"

>          I am caught in the following dilemma: Should I stay in this
>          marriage with the risk that our future position  on
>          children will be opposite? Or force a decision point on
>          this marriage  based on our current positions on children?    

I am particularly struck by this last paragraph.
If you can leave this marriage to avoid the risk of opposing positions,
ask yourself if you are still really married?

I would take the approach that you both have legitimate concerns
and that you are both right.  Can you look at this issue fully
and openly and find an answer that will work for both of you?

- Peter

    Let your spouse know how strongly you feel about this - that you
    are considering a divorce if they don't come around.

Ever since I can remember, I always swore I was never
going to have kids, that I didn't like kids etc etc.
and I really, really believed it too!

I got roped into helping on a playscheme at University
about 18 months ago....  I enjoyed it, but still said 
that I didn't like kids, and I didn't think they really
liked me either....!!  But I think I'd weakened a bit....

Anyway, due to some wierd and wonderful events (in 
which an adorable 4-year-old dot called Cassie played
a large part!!) I've ended up working with kids a 
few hours a week.... all of my own free choice!  And
I've done a complete U-turn on everything I've ever
said!  (I've yet to get the "told you so..."s from my
mother, but I know they are waiting for me...!!)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that maybe having 
some kids around a bit may get your partner thinking....
I think for me it was that I didn't think kids would
like *me*....!!!  Seems a daft idea now....

;o)  

Julia

    I think that if, after talking thoroughly about this with your spouse,
    and making it clear in a non-threatening way, if possible, how much you
    want children, so much so that you would be willing to leave the
    relationship to find someone else to have them with, that if he/she
    still says he/she never wants children, you should leave and try to
    find someone else to have them with before you get too old.  And,
    remember, besides the biological clock ticking, the older you get the
    harder it is to find a compatible mate, due to more people already
    being in relationships.
    
    My daughter, age 19, is my best friend, and I've been divorced for 8
    yrs.  At this point in time, I could never imagine not having had her
    and I could never imagine putting a couple relationship before her in
    terms of importance.  Romantic relationships come and go - more and
    more frequently these days it seems - but if you treat your kids right,
    they'll be your kids, and love you, and care about you til the day you die.
    
    Lorna
    

    	My feeling on this is you need to engage in some active and open
    communication.  Don't be threatening, but say something like, "I've
    been doing some thinking about some stuff we'd sorta talked about
    before, and I'm beginning to wonder about those decisions.  I'm not
    delivering ultimatums, but I really need to talk about this again for
    awhile and explore if we made a decision I can live with."  Make it
    clear that you're interested in your partners feelings on the subject
    as well.  Ask them for their reasons; I'm not suggesting that you try
    to pick apart those reasons, far from it!  Rather try to understand
    their point of view.


    	The reason I suggest this is because it's not clear from your note
    that you're really definite about this.  It's been my experience that
    when I'm not sure about something, talking about it will *usually* help
    me coalesce my thoughts/ideas into stronger feelings, one way or the
    other.  The *real* problem right now is that it sounds like you're not
    sure how you feel.  If you think about it, once those things are known
    then deciding what to do about them will be much easier.


    	Having children is an important issue and one that you can't
    compromise on -- you either both want them or you both don't want them
    or your relationship is probably in trouble.  I myself really want kids
    someday and that's one of the things I sorta try to find out early on
    when I'm getting to know someone.  There's no point in wasting a lot of
    time if we're *clearly* worlds apart on such an important issue.  Sure,
    sometimes people change their minds, in fact it happens all the time;
    but I don't think you can base a relationship on the *hope* they will
    change their mind.


    	As I said, if at all possible talk it out.  If your spouse will
    agree to it plan on talking about it more than once, preferably with
    some time apart so you'll have some "chew on it" time.  That's how I
    like to operate on really important stuff.


    	There's no getting around it, it's a tough situation requiring some
    hard decisions.  I wish you the best of luck.



    Brian

>I got roped into helping on a playscheme at University
>about 18 months ago....  I enjoyed it, but still said 
>that I didn't like kids, and I didn't think they really
>liked me either....!!  But I think I'd weakened a bit....

>Anyway, due to some wierd and wonderful events (in 
>which an adorable 4-year-old dot called Cassie played
>a large part!!) I've ended up working with kids a 
>few hours a week.... all of my own free choice!  And
>I've done a complete U-turn on everything I've ever
>said!  (I've yet to get the "told you so..."s from my
>mother, but I know they are waiting for me...!!)


    	I just read this, and this is really a pretty good idea.  If you're
    not sure, get involved with kids somewhere.  My sister baby-sat when
    she was younger and that convinced her she didn't want kids, and she
    hasn't changed her mind (at least not yet  ;-)).  I on the other hand
    always thought I wanted them, and earlier this year I helped coach
    volleyball down at the Nashua Boy's Club and found that although kids
    can really drive you crazy (I'd forgotten just how brain-damaged I was
    at that age  ;-)), they're a lot of fun too.  The experience cemented
    my conviction to have them if I can, and that I *think* I have the
    patience for them as well.  Only really having them will tell for sure.


    	I don't think I would bring them into the home though, that would
    kind of be like forcing them on your spouse who's remained pretty
    adamant about their decision.  You can't force a decision on someone
    else, you can only decide for yourself.  It's an option to help you
    decide though, and if you find yourself leaning towards having them
    *then* you might suggest that your spouse come see what it is that you
    like and want.


    	Just throwing out ideas here.



    Brian

    I was in two very serious relationships that convinced me NOT to have
    children because they would be raised in an interfaith marriage. That
    was the ONLY reason why we would not have children if we were married.
    I was so totally convinced that I did not want children, that when I
    met my future husband over a year ago, I was still adament. But over
    the course of our relationship, I have completely changed my mind,
    mainly because we are of the same faith, and I know he will be an
    excellent father.
    
    You must ask yourself WHY you both agreed five years ago NOT to have
    children and revisit those reasons. Why have you now changed your mind?
    are you getting pressure from outside sources? do you think it is the
    "thing" to do? Are you sure YOU really want the responsibility and the
    major change in your life children will bring?
    
    My sister has been married for 8 years. She has been *trying* to get
    pregant for 2 years. Something else to think about...you may suddenly
    want to get pregnant now and may not be able to right away. Should you
    chose to leave your marriage and seek another to start a family, keep
    in mind it may not happen right away. Good luck!

.13> mainly because we are of the same faith, and I know he will be an
.13> excellent father.

    I wouldn't even consider marrying someone whom I thought would be less
    than an excellent mother to any children we might have.

    But that's just me.

Having read Julia's reply, it seems to make sense. For me, I'd
never really experienced being around children of any age. My 
parents lived in an area where there were few young children,
my other family - aunts, cousins, etc lived abroad. For my wife,
she came from a very large very close knit family and was
surrounded by young children. She also took up primary school
teaching. As I said before - she wanted kids, I wasn't so sure.

re .0, has you partner ever experienced being around children? If
not then it's easy to say you don't want them. You don't know
what you're missing and the only experience you have is to hear
kids screaming round the shops, in restaurants, etc. You tend not
to notice the quiet, well-behaved ones, only the screaming ones.

Ian

re: .11, Brian

>								      Sure,
>    sometimes people change their minds, in fact it happens all the time;
>    but I don't think you can base a relationship on the *hope* they will
>    change their mind.

I couldn't help but notice that there's a very interesting flip-side to this.
How about basing a relationship on the hope that they _won't_ change their
minds? Just as risky, No? Like you say, it happens all the time.

-Jack

    re .16, good point.