Conference quark::human_relations

    Just this week I had a weird dream.

    Let me back up a moment ... My father died last October, suddenly.
    This caught my family by surprise; we had no chance to prepare for
    his passing.
    
    My mom passed on 3 weeks later, but gradually.  We were able to
    talk with her beforehand and be with her almost constantly, in her
    final days.  We were prepared for it when it finallly happened.
    
    Anyway, that's the background, here's the dream.


    I was in my parents' kitchen.  My dad was there.  Everything was
    normal and then I realized something was wrong ... I took his arm
    as he was walking by and asked him : "Dad, what are you doing here?
    I thought you died."  With that, he walked into his bedroom, lied
    face down on the bed and stopped breathing.  He became very still.

    I got on the bed and shook him.  He turned around and faced me, but
    his face was off color, very pale.  As he turned, I saw that his ear
    had on it some on the makeup that the undertaker used; his face didn't.
    He looked a bit like he did in the coffin.  I said to him : "What's
    going on?  You were fine just a minute ago."

    Then his face regained color and took on a familiar, happy expression
    and said "And sometimes, when people tell you you're not fine, you
    really are."  He flashed a look that said to me "so why try to figure
    it out?"  Then he turned around and became still again.

    This woke me from a sound sleep.

    I initially woke up happy, because I had a chance to talk with him,
    and he appeared relaxed and comfortable, but then became sad after a
    few minutes, almost as if he had just died, all over again.
    

    I'm interested in interpretations of the symbolism and messages in
    this dream.  I find that I can make this be anything I want, so what
    I'm looking for are objective interpretations.  I wonder if any will
    agree with mine.

    
    	I think that the dream is an effort on the part of your
    subconscious to work through the experience of your father's 
    sudden death.
    
    	Bereavement (grief) takes a definite course after a loss
    such as you've experienced. I think the dream specifically re-confronted 
    you with the fact of his death ("Dad, what are you doing here? I 
    thought you died.") but at the same time comforted you with the
    idea that your father is OK ("when people tell you you're not fine,
    you really are.") in being wherever it is that you go to when you
    die.
    
    	My wife recently experienced the loss of her Mother. She has
    quite a few books on the subject, the titles of which I'd be happy
    to enter here or send you offline, if you'd like. ALL the books
    stress the importance of allowing the grief process over the loss
    of a family member or loved one to run its course; most suggest
    ways to let this happen, what to expect in going through it and
    even activities which will help you get to and through what is
    necessary, unfortunately, by matter of fact.
    
    	I'm sorry to hear of your recent losses.
    
    	Joe

    To me, it sounds like your mind has been struggling with accepting 
    the death.  Trying to find a reason for it.  And finally realized that 
    maybe there is no substantial reason.  Death is a part of life, that's 
    the only reason for death.  People die, it happens, you mourn them, 
    then you place the grief somewhere inside your heart/mind and move on 
    with your life.  
    
    Skip

To the chinese, especially the chinese buddhists, a dream of the dead
is nothing more than communication.  They believe that the spirit may
from time to time choose to communicate with the living.  All ancestors
watch over their living descendants and the dream is nothing to fear or
dissect; simply a brief encounter to cherish.

For me, the main conflict is in trying to resolve that with another
buddhist concept; that of re-incarnation.  

Sorry, I'm rather feculent today.  My sincere condolences.

joyce

My dictionary fails to list "feculent".  Perhaps it means "making up words so
people will think you're smart" ???

/Eric

    Mike - 
    
    My youngest brother had a similar dream the night that my father died. 
    Garrett had just gotton off the phone with our brother, Mike, who had
    told him that Dad had had a massive coronary, was in a coma and was not
    expected to make it through the night.  Garrett went to sleep and
    dreamt that Dad woke him up saying, "Get up, Gar, it's your birthday
    and we're going fishing!"  Garrett said, "Dad, I thought you were
    sick."  Dad said, "Oh, I'm over all that.  I jogged over here."  Gar
    said, "Dad, you're supposed to be in the hospital."  And with that, Dad
    raised his hand in a sort of salute and faded away.  Garrett was
    awakened by the call saying Dad had died about an hour before.
    
    I think this was Dad's way of letting Garrett know that he was o.k.
    with moving on and it was also Garrett's way of beginning to come to
    terms with Dad's death.
    
    Nanci 

re .5

Eric,

try upgrading your dictionary.  The Oxford lists Feculent as - turbid; fetid; 
muddy, unclear.

So no, I'm not trying to sound smart, as you put it.  Nor offensive.

joyce

The dictionary is the "American Heritage" that was supplied with the office
about 5 years ago.  I didn't ask for it, it just came.  Does that mean
updates will automatically arrive ?  is your word a new word ?  Anyone
have an "American Heritage" with that word in it ? If not, upgrades won't
help.  (obviously, switching to "Oxford" would though)

>The dictionary is the "American Heritage" that was supplied with the office
>about 5 years ago.  I didn't ask for it, it just came.  Does that mean
>updates will automatically arrive ?  is your word a new word ?  Anyone
>have an "American Heritage" with that word in it ? If not, upgrades won't
>help.  (obviously, switching to "Oxford" would though)


    	Eric, I didn't see any need to get offended when Joyce used a word
    that I wasn't familiar with.  That you choose to is of course your
    choice, but I'd really rather not hear about it any more.  Frankly I
    don't see that it's such a big deal that you feel the need to continue
    to berate her.  Normally I just ignore things like this when they
    appear but this really bugged me.  Could we please get back to the base
    topic?


    	Mike, I was intrigued by your dream.  My interpretation of events
    like this is that your subconscious, which is *always* working, wanted
    to communicate with your conscious mind.  This is one way it can do
    that.  My take on it is that your subconscious had done some processing
    of these events and wanted to tell you what it had come up with.



    Brian

    Interesting interpetations so far.

    
    
    I'm sorry you have had these losses.  
    
    Your dream is very similar to ones I've had about my mother who died
    7 months ago.  Its never really clear to me in the dreams if she really
    is alive or not, or whether she knows it or not.  I seem to know that
    her death has occurred and always seem surprised (but happy) that she's
    there.  Sometimes I wake up happy...glad to be back with someone I miss
    so much.  Other times its disturbing because I'm not sure what it all
    means.  Although my mother was sick before she died, there were many
    things I didn't say because I believed she would get better.  Sometimes
    I'm disturbed because our dream conversations seem so inane.  
    
    In books I've read, interpretations of these dreams is almost
    always the processing of the death.  The confrontation process (someone
    I love very much has died) goes on for most of the first year or two.
    Sometimes it seems very unreal, and other times it seems like it is
    real.  Our dreams tend to confront our ambiguity. I know sometimes in
    my waking hours,I'm almost positive that my mother can't possibly be dead.
    Other days I know this is a reality and sometimes my dreams will represent all of
    that for me.
    
    I just think its the working through of a very difficult reality.
    
    Susan
                                                                  

    Well, I finally read though all the replies here (I've been lax in
    following HR these days) and I want to thank everyone for their
    contributions.  They made me think.
    
    Don't take my lack of specific comments and replies to mean anything 
    besides the fact that I don't have a whole lot to say right now.

I'm really sorry to hear that you lost your dad. I'll never forget that you
were the first one to reply when I posted a note about the loss of my brother
in the former incarnation of this conference.

Not too long ago, I had a dream about my departed brother. I was in a bedroom
at our house (not one of the ones he usually stayed in). He had been in a bed
by the window. We were playing. I distinctly remember trying to mess up his
hair; but, he had a crew cut so it was hard to do. I was happy to have another
chance to play with him; but, I knew he was dead (and I think I knew that this
was a dream too). I just went along with it anyhow. In the same dream, I also
remember supposedly being in the apartment of a friend of mine (I'd never been
to his apartment) whom I had been with the night my brother had died. I imagined his apartment was near Sculler's
(a jazz club in Boston above the Charles River) which was the last place
I remember being with my friend.

I don't know what brought the dream on, nor do I know what it meant (other then
subconscious attempts to deal with the loss); but, I'm glad I had it. It sounds
like you are making progress dealing with the loss of your dad. I hope he can
continue to be a positive influence in your life even though he is gone.

Chuck

    After a death, I grieved and grieved, but couldn't seem to accept and
    start recovery.  In a dream one night, the one I loved walked into 
    our dining room.  My oldest daughter (not then living with me) 
    came in.  She was so happy to see him, ran and put her arms around him. 
    Then she turned to me and said, "Mom, why don't you hug him?"  I
    replied gently, "I can't right now, sweetheart, because he's dead. 
    I will later."  
    
    Upon awakening in tears of grief mixed with joy, I felt the peaceful 
    acceptance I'd been unable to obtain before and was finally able to
    move on in the healing process.
    
    Please accept my sympathy, Mike, on your losses.
    Ann
    
    PS  I look forward to hugging him again, later. 
    

    I can't beleave this note! I just happened to log in and read through
    the notes. I have been reading through DEJAVU notes file for answers to
    a dream I had last Saturday night. I NEVER remember my dreams probably
    because I'm a really deep sleeper. My father died 4 years ago, he was 
    84 years old. I still miss him alot, but I did my greiving and know
    that he is with me in spirit. Well anyway, here is my dream which is
    almost similar to Mikes.
    
    I was at my mothers house and walking up to her back porch, my father
    was standing there. He was dressed in a suit he used to wear to church
    on Sunday. He was the way he looked at around 60 years old. I had a
    feeling of excitment, he had his arms held out as to give me a hug.
    As I walked over to hug him I was crying you are supposed to be dead.
    He replied to me I am not dead, I am here arn't I? I was just so happy
    I was crying and then I woke up. 
    
    My husband told me the next day I was talking in my sleep. I never talk
    in my sleep. I told my husband and daughter about my dream and my
    daughter had had dreams that he was standing in her room at night. She
    had to keep a record of her dreams for her psychology class and it was
    the first time she had ever mentioned her dream to me.
    
    I really think that it is a way of communicating with life beyond. I 
    don't think it is my psych working through any greiving process,
    because I greived for a really long time. It is a real coincidence this
    note has been written at a time when I've been looking for answers
    also.
    
    My deepest condolences to Mike, I understand your loss.
    
    Marilyn

    My father died almost 16 yrs. ago, and since that time, every so often
    I've had dreams where he's still alive, usually looking like he did
    about 25 yrs. ago, before he got old looking.  (He was almost 76 when
    he died, and due to ill health, looked older.)  In fact, I've never yet
    had a dream, involving my parents, where he has died.  I've often
    wondered if this is because, on some subconscious level, I've never
    really accepted the fact he's dead.  I don't know.
    
    My mother has been very sick, senile, and in a nursing home for the
    past almost 7 yrs.  She will be 80 next month.  Sometimes when I have
    dreams that she appears in she's old, yet talking normal, and I'll
    briefly think, in the dream, "Hey, she's better!  She's not senile
    anymore!"  Other times, since her illness, I've had dreams that my
    mother is very angry with me, and doesn't like me, or want to have
    anything to do with me anymore, and I feel very sad about it.  I assume
    this could be because on a subconscious level I may feel that she
    abandoned me or something, by going senile.  (How could she leave me
    like that?)   Then, at other times, I have dreams where my mother looks
    the way she did when I was a kid, and is normal, yet I'll be the age I
    am now.
    
    Lorna
    

 I had a dream last night that I was watching TV with my wife and when the news
came on there was footage of a man and girl/woman attacking John MacEnroe
on the tennis court with a knife. It was horribly bloody and graphic, and
it got me so upset I had a difficult time sleeping the rest of the night.
This is one dream that it still vivid in my memory.

    The other night I dreamed that I was trying to sweep up all the evil in
    the world.  The evil was a lot of piles of little brown twigs, and if I
    could just get them all swept up, there would be no more evil in  the
    world.  Needless to say, I was unable to manage the job.  :-)  I, also,
    dreamed that I went into work and started a lite topic in womannotes on
    dreams, and described this dream about sweeping evil in it.  I was
    surprised when I woke up and realized I hadn't really entered the
    topic, but had dreamed the whole thing.
    
    Lorna
    

    Here is a crazy one that I thaught I would add......
    
    I live on a Lake, Lake Quinsigamond in Worcester. In my dream I was
    looking out the window at the water and all of a sudden this big ugly
    thing rears his head out of the water........
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    could it be the Lake Quinsigamond Monster??????? ;-)
    
    
    Yes it was pretty silly and I did laugh when I got up but in the dream
    I was screaming running down the hallway looking for my hubby!

re -1
>could it be the Lake Quinsigamond Monster??????? ;-)

Na, sounds like indigestion.  Did you have cheese toast before bedtime  ;^)

    I will tell you why I dreamed of this.....not cheese toast but I was
    looking at one of those crazy tabloids that had an article about one of
    those monsters, must have stuck in my head ;->

    Hi, I'm Pat and have never written in this notes conference before but
    have to write about a dream I had a few nights ago.  First let me say
    that I have been divorced twice and the first marriage was to my high
    school sweetheart many years ago (about 30).  We divorced twenty years
    ago and he drowned in a boating accident about four years ago at the
    age of 46 (too young).  We had three kids.  In my dream I am getting
    married to him again and I notice my gown is yellow and stained.  I
    also realize that he is not waiting at the alter as I walk up the aisle
    and then it dawns on me thats because he died.  After this scene I am
    walking in the woods arm in arm with our grown son and telling him how
    sorry I am that he missed so much of his father's life by our divorcing
    when Rob was only seven.  I am sure that I am trying to deal with un-
    resolved issues and disappointed for my children that not only lost
    their father when he and I divorced, but then lost him again when he
    died so young.  I must have thought that if we married again we could
    do it right and then realization that it was too late set in while I
    was still dreaming.  Needless to say I was depressed when I awoke even
    thought I dealt with the divorce and his death many years ago.  
    
    I have also had many dreams about my mother who passed away fifteen
    years ago.  I usually do not remember she is dead until I awake and
    sometimes I really feel like we were together in the dream for awhile.
    
    Losses are so painful but so necessary but I feel sorry for everyone
    who loses a loved one.  Time heals but you never forget.
    
    Pat

    When my Mom was terminally ill (for 4 days) before she passed away,
    my Dad kept saying that it seemed like he was having a nightmare (and 
    he kept hoping to wake up with my Mom ok again.)  After that, I dreamt
    about my Mom almost every night (for the next few weeks) and every
    morning I'd wake up and realize that she had really and truly passed
    away.  I would wake up thinking (also) how difficult it must be for
    my Dad to wake up to that same realization every day.

    My son (alive and well) is often in my dreams (as a player, not
    necessarily central to the action) - but the strangest thing is that
    my dreams don't always place him at his current age.  One night, he'll
    be 4 years old in my dream (but somehow, he has the same personality
    he has now as a college student) - other times, he's around 12.  On
    a few occasions, he's been an infant (but somehow, he has the same
    personality he has now as a college student.)  Sometimes, he's his
    current age.

    I sometimes wonder if it's my subconscious remembering all the ages
    of his life (and wanting to keep the memories with me as he gets
    older and more independent) - but since his personality always seems
    current, I guess I also appreciate the way he is (at the current time.)

    Dreams are strange.

    Heartfelt sympathies to the original poster, who seems to have
    uncovered a very common symptom of dying and grief.
    
    My father died two years ago, and I had several phases of dreams:
    
    i) The night he died I had a dream about him (the first ever) where he
    was about my age (30) and took me for a *really wild fun* motorcycle &
    sidecar ride, ending in him showing me an empty grave and telling me
    that it was for him (but this somehow was not sad... just a fact). My
    mother phoned at 6:00 in the morning to tell me he had died in the
    night.
    
    ii) Nightmares almost every night involving knives blood being chopped
    to bits by a psycho - fear like I have never experienced before. This
    went on for about three months, then the occurred less often (say
    weekly, then monthly, came back to every night for a while when my
    brother and nephew died, now very rare).
    
    iii) Father is actually alive and I've been tricked into believing he
    was dead. Angry dreams, it's so unfair etc etc. Dreams where I meet him
    and discover he is still alive, butis not around anymore (consistent
    with heaven if I had believed in it).
    
    iv) Companion dreams. My father often appears as a sort of companion
    friend and guide in my normal dreams. He is sometimes young, sometimes
    older but always fit happy and helping me to enjoy whatever is going on
    in the dream.
    
    The only conclusion I can reach is that the mind is sometimes a
    comforting entity and sometimes into S&M! I wish I understood it
    better.
    
    I wish you strength in your grief.
    
    Richard Grear
    HLDE01::GREAR_R
     

    re .23, Suzanne, I have also had dreams where Melissa is grade-school
    age again.  I even had one dream where I was talking to my parents,
    outside, and we were getting in a car, and I was saying to my parents
    (who looked the way they looked when *I* was in high school), "Where's
    Melissa?  I want Melissa?"  and my mother pointed into the car, and
    said, "Melissa's right there."  I looked in the car and saw Melissa,
    the age is now (or a year or two younger - 17, 18), and I turned to my
    mother and said, "But, I want the *little* Melissa!!"
    
    When I woke-up, I couldn't believe I had dreamed that, because I
    certainly want the big Melissa, too, in real life!!!!
    
    Lorna
    

About four years ago, I dreamt my sister. She is alive, but I dreamt she was dead.

I could feel a really "pain" in my heart for her missing.
Everywhere I went, I talked to someone to tell my pain.
Then, I found myself in front of my workstation, in the office, 
and I heard the "beep" of a new message sound.

Out of the corner of my eyes, I saw the title of this message
and I realized there was her name inside.
I understood she was trying to get in touch with me.
I read the message. The screen background was full of white clouds.
She told me: "where I am, there are a lot of clouds, much more then us".
(of course I didn't understand this sentence).
I could not read very well what she was trying to write (to tell me), 
because I was far away from my workstation and I could not come nearer.
Then I saw the face of my sister. It filled up all the screen.
It was swollen for the speed of take-off towards the sky.

But, suddenly, I realized that the face I was looking at was not her face, 
it was a face of a very young baby...
maybe my nephew? (her daughter).
...No, it was not the face of my nephew, it was my sister when she was a young 
baby.

She was wearing a beautiful red dressed, 
the same dressed she has in a photo (that we have in our house)

But, while I was looking at this face, which could not wait for the result of 
my thoughts, I realized that my sister was trying to tell me something, a 
very simple, "nonsense" sentence, but full of sadness:

Also you, have left your sister.

I still wonder what this dream could mean.

Carla 
Rome - Italy

    re .26, that reminds me of a dream I had a few weeks ago.  I dreamed
    that my uncle, who died two years ago, at the age of 84, came back to
    give my mother a message.  In the dream, my mother had found out that
    the house she grew-up in had been torn down and that she was
    heartbroken about it.  (This did not actually happen in real life,
    however at the time of  my uncle's death the house, which he had owned,
    passed out of the hands of the family.)
    
    In the dream, I was in a room talking with my mother, my father (who in
    real life has been dead for 16 yrs.), my brother, my ex-husband, and
    my daughter.  (It seemed in the dream that my father had never died -
    although my uncle had died, and that I was still married to my ex.)
    
    My uncle appeared in the room surrounded by a golden light, but he
    looked just like he looked back in the '50's and early '60's when I was
    a kid, and he was middle-aged.  We (in the dream) were all stunned and
    amazed that he had come back from the dead (just as we would be if it
    happened in real life) and I felt a little bit afraid of what was going
    on.  He then started to tell my mother that he had come back to give
    her a message that she had nothing to worry about, that everything was
    going to be okay, even though the family house had been torn down, that
    it didn't matter.  It was very strange.  I could see him so clearly,
    too, looking just the way he did years ago when I was a kid, before he
    got old.
    
    Lorna
    

Hi! I've never written in the conference before, but after reading the entries
about dreams, feel compelled to enter a recent experience of mine, along with
a brief interpretation.

First a bit of introduction...I've been dating Steve for almost 4 years now,
and we have been engaged for 3 years.  Recently, I have begun to question our
relationship.  He treats me very well, and his heart is in the right place.
I've never been with anyone who has loved me more, or treated me better.  The
problem is that he is not intelligent enough for me, and has little interest
in learning.  This leads to my being bored with him.  

I had decided to end the relationship, and then dreamt that Steve left me for
another woman.  There was nothing I could do to get him back (in real life, I
have no doubt that the only way I would lose him is if I was unfaithful). The 
dream bothered me terribly, seemed to last a long time while I was trying to
get him back, and I woke up extremely depressed that I had lost him.

After awakening, I decided to pay attention to that dream.  If I was that upset,
to me it meant that I should stay in the relationship.  I'm glad that I have.

I remember reading a question put to Marilyn Vos Savant, in the Sunday Parade,
for those who read it.  The question was wheter she would rather be in a 
relationship where her man loved her more, or one where she loved her man more.
Her response was unequivocally that she'd prefer to be the "more loved" partner.

Sorry for the digression, to me it all ties in.  It's pretty obvious to me that
most answers to personal dilemmas come to you between dreams and enough time!
I've learned not to act to hastily because of this!!

Laura

    In my last relationship, I learned that there is a "je ne sais quoi"
    quality to love which transcends intellect.  Though I can still say I
    wouldn't want to stay with someone who totally lacks ambition/
    enthusiasm for life, I wouldn't even consider writing someone off for
    being not intelligent or educated enough.  What I noticed in that
    relationship was that I never felt even a twinge of loneliness for
    years, and it's hard to describe that.  We were "together".
    
    You've learned something very important and I'm glad to hear it!
    
    -rich
    Mass Storage Engineering OEM D&SG  SHR3-1/W7     DTN:  237-2124
    [email protected]                            508-841-2124

    re .28, on the other hand, once when I was married to my ex-husband
    (and still happily married at that point), I dreamed that I had
    divorced him, and that I regretted it terribly.  When I woke up I was
    filled with this horrible feeling of regret and longing, and I was so
    happy and relieved to look over and see him sleeping next to me, and
    realize that it was just a dream.  
    
    Then, several years later I did divorce him, but have never really
    regretted it much (except for fleeting moments, when I was lonely - had
    no date for a Sat. night and was feeling sorry for myself).  Then, as
    soon as I found someone to do something with, I wouldn't regret it
    anymore.
    
    So, my conclusion to this is that *sometimes* a dream is just a dream. 
    :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    Or as Freud would say, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

    - Jim

True enough, but dreams still seem to help me work out my problems!  On the 
other hand, I could have followed my intellect, quit the relationship and things
still may have turned out well.  Alot of life is what you make of it!

Laura
;->

    Wow, it looks like this interesting note has not been added to for a
    while so let me start. I am a contract worker for Digital and have been
    for the last six or seven years so I am used to bouncing from one
    facility to another, it is par for the temp course ;-)
    
    I was on an assignment for 7 months, went away in February on a
    vacation to Florida. While I was in Florida I had a dream of going into
    my office and a box was packed with all my stuff, and I found out my
    assignment was over.  A week after the dream I get notified that my
    contract is up. Weird yes!!
    
    I am out a week relaxing and enjoying the time off then then on a
    Wednesday nite I have another dream. I am being escorted to a cubicle
    and the person who escorted me said this is your new office and
    started showing me around where everything was.  When I woke up I
    remembered the dream very clearly. That morning I get up, grab a coffee
    and all of a sudden the phone rings. It is my agency telling me they
    got me a new assignment and I start on Friday! 
    
    Pretty weird !