| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 1312.1 | | DELNI::STHILAIRE | Food, Shelter & Diamonds | Tue Oct 20 1992 16:19 | 16 |
| re .0, It is definitely *not* wrong for you to want to be able to go
out on a weeknight with a girlfriend, while you are in a couple
relationship. In fact, personally, I would never consider being in
such a relationship. More and more, these days, couples are realizing
that being married or living together, does not mean that people have
to give up friends or hobbies or interests that their SO doesn't share.
Just because two people are in a couple relationship doesn't mean they
have to be together every single moment.
I, also, think that if you can possibly afford it, you should buy your
own car. Even if it is saving you money, by using his, I don't think
it's worth it. I think he's using the fact that he's let you use his
car to control your coming and going, ie. your life.
Lorna
|
| 1312.3 | love is blind | CSC32::L_MEIER | | Tue Oct 20 1992 17:06 | 22 |
| Dear Anon,
I say this with deepest concern for you. I am usually a read only
person but can't this time. The person you care so deeply for is
only going to cause you more and more heartache until you will no
longer have your own personality and you will only see this when you
have to leave either for mental health or because of physical abuse
(IMHO). This person is (IMO) sick and a practiced manipulator. The
only way you can keep some self worth would be to stand up for yourself
and in doing so, you will be putting your relationship on the line. If
he kicks you out for doing this, you WILL be better off. If he
doesn't kick you out, you will still have a VERY long road to travel.
One question you may ask yourself is: Deep down, do you really think
this man will ever change.
IMHO
from someone who's been there, and maybe never all the way back.
Please feel free to mail to me if you need someone to talk to. I would
like to be there for you. Please don't ever stop reaching out to
someone/anyone.
|
| 1312.4 | If you love somebody, set them free.... | KNGBUD::B_SIART | Say something that makes me think! | Tue Oct 20 1992 17:10 | 34 |
|
re .0
You chose to stay with this person. Why do you keep on
asking if what your doing is right? Just by questioning the facts here
I can only see that you still don't know for sure if you made the right
decision. I've been through relationships that I was madly in love with
the other person and I didn't see clearly that I was just being used. I
was repeating the same type of scenarios and getting myself involved
with power freaks. These women would wait until I was deep in love and
then start to use their power to get what they wanted. They would
always use the statement of "Well if you love me, you'll do this that
and the other thing...." And I bought it until the relationship got so
unhealthy I was ready to kill someone. They had to know where I was,
who I was with and more. The reason why I let them do it was because I
was scared to loose them. Until one day I said what the HELL am I
doing? I felt suffocated and I needed to breathe my own air and just be
me. This is a very unhealthy relationship. Before I ever get into a
relationship I make sure that I know that I will have my own space and
I always let the other have theirs. I live by the statement of "If you
love somebody, set them free." Because you are you own person, you
should be able to make your own decisions about what you want and not
be afraid of what others think. Well, I'm rambling, I think I'll shut
up now cause this topic is just to close to me and I get pretty upset
at myself thinking about what I went through. I need to get some air...
I may sound harsh and maybe a little irrational at times, but I
really do care what happens. I've been through it enough times. Please
keep in touch with us all.
-B
|
| 1312.5 | | XCUSME::HOGGE | I am the King of Nothing | Tue Oct 20 1992 17:27 | 97 |
| I went back and read the refered to note, and some of the replies.
My opinion...
1) This guy has a 'control fixation' and possibly some rather strange
obsessive behavior as well as possibly a strange form of
co-dependency. In other words, I think he's in dire need of some
psychiatric and psychological help.
2) I get the feeling he's older then 40... closer to 50 or 60 as his
attitude is something I've seen in elder couples who where 'raised' to
believe that 2 come together as 1 which is a big batch of hogwash.
2 individuals are just that, individuals, they share simular interests
and have different interests from each other. There is NOTHING wrong
with persuing the differences individually. That is if you have an
interest in doing something or going somewhere that he finds no desire
to share with you... hey, you've as much a right to persue it as he
has NOT to.
3) You are being forced to live a life style... which you seem to not
want to be trapped in.
I have a question here, you said you'd asked/told him your feelings
about his reaction to your wanting to go that night... I'm curious
as to what he responded with when you did. Your statements were as
near as I can figure, absolutly correct... but you didn't say what he
replied with (if anything).
4) I don't want to sound cruel, but you've one of two choices, let
thing continue the way they are, or get out and live your own life,
he isn't going to let you have both, that's obvious from his 'Do it
my way or get out' attitude.
So that leaves the dicision up to you... continue with the life style
you're living just as it is from now on until such time as one of you
pass on. (Sounds to me like he's stiffeling your individualism in the
process making you conform to his expectations of the ideal
relationship) or, take a deep breath, get a vehical of your own, pack
your bags and lead your own life.
It breaks down to what you think you can accept for the rest of your
life. Because until he 'wakes up' he's NOT going to change, and so
long as he's unchallenged as the supreme authority figure in the
relationship, you're going to have to continue as you are. Once he
IS challenged odds are you're going to have to move out and develope
your own life anyhow.
Now if it were me in this relationship, I'd probably go along until
I 'popeyed-out' that is 'Stand what I stand till I can't stands no
more' then, get the heck outta there and become my normal self,
realizing that I'd been a fool to have thought I could live according
to someone else's rules with no control on what I did from time to
time. (ACtually, I don't think I'd last a week in a relationship like
yours... the first time someone tried to control my lifestyle as
completely as he appears to be doing with you, I'd walk out and not
think twice about it.)
You are a human being, we need more then the companionship of ONE
person in our life, we ALL need friends, people to do things with,
to reflect faccets of our selves. No one single human can give me
EVERYTHING I need from others all the time. It's impossible, yet
from what you've said, he feels he can give it all to you without you
needing anything else from another person, and finds it insulting if
you tell him otherwise.
I'm sorry, but I could never EVER feel 'safe' in a relationship like
that.
Finally, I hate to say this, but most of the people advised you to
get out of that relationship... I'll say the same thing... Get Out,
you're hurting yourself, and he's had more then enough time to 'change'
and he hasn't, if anything it sounds like he's gotten worse.
Now, as near as I can tell, you've a right to what you want to do, you
tried to include him in it, and he didn't want it. Go out, have fun,
and consider if you want to cut your loses realizing that he's never
going to change at all so long as you continue to 'bow down before his
highness (hind-@$$ in my opinion).
In otherwords, you've got to ask yourself, are you content being right
where you are now or not? If so, keep going, if not, the next step is
obvious, it's just a matter of how you want to do it, slowly taking up
the 'challenges' he lays out before you 'Go ahead, go out with your
friends but don't come back' (be intersting to see what would happen
if you DID go out with them and do just that, not come back home.)
Or quick, getting a car at the earliest opportunity and finding a place
to move to.
Well, there you have it. My 2 cents... that and some 'panhandling'
will get you a cup of coffee if you're lucky.
Skip
|
| 1312.6 | You already know the answer | TNPUBS::J_GOLDSTEIN | Always curious | Tue Oct 20 1992 18:27 | 32 |
| Dear Anon:
I'm almost always read-only, but I, like others, can no longer stay silent. I
think that deep in your heart, you *know*, right now, today, what you really
want to do. You said it yourself, you're sick of this person's attempt to
control your life. Your questioning of his behavior, in this note and the
previous one show that you are not happy with this relationship, that it only
works when you "behave yourself" according to your partner's rules.
Perhaps it's time for you to accept that you're not happy, that you're sick of
all this. Maybe you're scared, maybe you're disappointed that this relationship
is not the one you had hoped for, dreamed of. That hurts, and I know these
things are hard to accept...with the logical part of your mind and the
emotional side of your heart.
Anon, you *deserve* a life that gives you a chance to enjoy yourself. To go out
with friends, expand your horizons (btw, one can always take a cab to get home,
you don't have to ask your partner for a ride). You *deserve* the right to have some freedom and individualism. You're not a toy
or a tool, designed only to please someone else. You have the right to *please
yourself*. Sounds a little selfish...well, you deserve to be a little selfish.
You also *deserve* respect from those around you. Respect that *your* needs and
wishes are as important as other people's are.
Sometimes things just don't work; no matter how hard you try, no matter how much
you hope and believe. Life isn't fair and there's no changing that. Every note
that you've written breaks my heart. I can only hope you will find it within you
to let go of this relationship, despite the initial hurt and sadness you might
feel, despite the love that may exist.
Do take care of *you*,
joan
|
| 1312.7 | You *are* very scared. There is hope! | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Why not ask why? | Tue Oct 20 1992 21:58 | 56 |
|
Re .0 -
What I find striking is the amount of rationalizing and
justifying you do around your behavior in the relationship you have with
this man. Something in you is very powerful; something like fear, or maybe
more accurately a terror of somekind, that would cause you to go through
such efforts; from the cleaning supplies and groceries you buy which
justifies your stay, right on out to "And I do admit, that it is not THAT
important for me to go tonight...and actually I don't like staying out real
late on a work night" Right.
The rational mind is a very good analytical tool; it can help you sort
things out and even help you to make a decision. It does not, however, make a
very good friend. That's a matter of the heart. Your decision is a matter of
the heart; does it feel like something you'd want to do (of course you have
your answer already...) NOT is it a matter of "I guess it's not really
important to me, actually I really dont think I'd, he'd sure be less teed off
if I didnt, I could make this one sacrifice, there is the car problem, I
wouldnt want to put my friend out, he'll kill me if I walk in at 1:00, I got
too much to do tomorrow, etc etc etc.
Point is, that rational thinking can take you right out of reality
and put you in a perspective that is totally a matter of how you happened to
work the logic of it all. That is why it's not a very good friend, it's just
thinking, there's no heart in it; no "what feels right" to offer some sort
of balance before the rationality gets to absurdity: "I really dont deserve to
enjoy anything at all".
My advice is to find a womanfriend who can catch you in these kind of
rationalizations and justifications and call you on it - especially when these
are done in the context of your behavior in this relationship. It's almost as
if, on your own, you'll eventually make it seem right and okay - whatever is
happening - for the sake of this relationship! I mean, if he threw you out on
the street tomorrow, how bad could it be? Would you trully rather co-conspire
with this individual to ensure your sustained misery? By reasoning yourself out
of what your true self wants and feels, you're essentially placing the ring in
your own nose for him to lead you around with - you're agreeing to that
position and place in your "comittment to him".
One place where you can find said womanfriend is in a CODA meeting.
These are meetings where folks gather once a week to share their experience,
strength and hope with issues just like rationalizing and justifying one's
behavior for the sake of maintaining a relationship. You can find a meeting
by asking here, given whatever location in the country you'd be looking for
one to attend. *Guaranteed*, it'll be another thing that your partner will be
aggrivated with - it's an old story - "My boyfriend doesnt like me going to
these meetings". The reason why is because the boyfriend wants her to stay
sick; keep the ring in her nose, remain completely under his control and be
the ultimate authority with which she has to reckon.
I hope these words can help you. I also suggest reading "Women who love
too much" by Robin Norwood.
Joe
|
| 1312.8 | | SCHOOL::BOBBITT | up on the watershed... | Wed Oct 21 1992 08:31 | 13 |
|
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE I beg you
read "women who love too much".
Based on your last topic here and Joe's suggestion, *I* did.
It's really changed how I look at a lot of my past relationships.
It's helped me look to healthier relationships.
It may even have, in the long run, saved my life, and my "self", from
future damage in future relationships.
-Jody
|
| 1312.9 | you know the answers already | EARRTH::MACKINNON | | Wed Oct 21 1992 09:55 | 4 |
|
Love isn't supposed to hurt!
|
| 1312.10 | | HYDRA::HEATHER | my heart hurts | Wed Oct 21 1992 11:46 | 37 |
| I agree with all that have said you already know the answers. I think
you really do. You don't even *sound* happy. He is maniputlating you
on a pretty constant basis, you are at a point where you rationalize
everything so "it's not that bad".......*WHY* does it have to be bad
at all?
I understand that you love him......Sometimes love just ain't enough,
to quote a pretty good song. And, does it occur, that you can love
him, and still not be able to live with him? You need to get to a
point where you can love and respect yourself *first*. I don't
hear that now.....I hear a lot of being willing to sacrifice what's
basically a *normal* life, just to stay with him.
I hear that you want to go to the concert. There are many ways to
deal with the details, so you *can* go if you truely want to, car or
no car. If he throws you out for living your own life, that really
should say something to you about your real value to him - And if he
just gets mad and makes your life miserable.....is this really worth
it? It is *really* worth going through this kind of anguish *every*
time you want to do something for or by yourself? ....A flower,
given no sun, water or food, will die.......
Mostly, I hear that you really don't want/know how to make the decision
you need to for you. Perhaps it's always been easier for you to go
along than to make waves. That's how my life was for a very long time
and I'm just now beginning to recover. Remember, even a wrong or bad
decision is at least an attempt to take control and have some say in
how your life will play. And we all learn from our mistakes, so even
bad decisions have value.
Now I'll echo what you keep hearing from others: Get out, now. You
truely are being abused. Go....put your life back together.
I wish you well - contact me if you want to talk more.
bright blessings,
-HA
|
| 1312.11 | Reply from anonymous author of base note | QUARK::MODERATOR | | Wed Oct 21 1992 12:53 | 135 |
| Hi again. Yesterday afternoon I called my boyfriend and once again
asked him if he would like to go to that restaurant and listen to the
singer with a few people I work with. He said, he didn't know because
he might be tired by 8:00 since he didn't sleep at all the night
before. (He didn't sleep because I told him about being invited to go
see this singer). I then asked him that if he decided not to go, if it
would be okay for me to take his car and go myself. Otherwise I would
be home much later. He said, "If that's what you want, go, but we have
to talk after". I asked him what we had to talk about. He said he
thought about it all night, he loves me but this is not the way he
thought it would be. I thought things would be different. I said, just
because I want to go out with a friend? He said he has decided that he
would rather be miserable alone. Needless to say I was very upset. I
was shaking from head to toe when I hung up the phone, and I felt like
I was having a heart attack. It was weird. Well, I was invited to go to
a friends house to talk, but I didn't know what to do. So, I stayed in
my office until about 6:00, then I called my boyfriend and told him
that I was coming home, but I wasn't coming home to fight, or to
endure the silent treatment.
I have never been able to get my point across to this guy. He always
twists everything I say around, and accuses me of doing things to hurt
him. He gets me to a point where I can't even think of a thing to say,
so I end up feeling bad and trapped. Well, last night was different.
Maybe it is from watching all the Pres. Debates 8-). I was actually
able to talk, and he was the one unable to respond with one of his
twisted accusations. When he did, I shot it down and made him see what
he was doing.
He tried to say all I want to do is go out with my friends, other
people come first, I only think of myself etc. I explained to him that
I am a human being with feelings and needs. I have the right to have
outside interests, and if I want to do something once in a while with
another person I should be able to. Then he said he just does not like
this person I wanted to go out with because she is a bad influence. She
is going through a divorce and is not a bad influence. I told him that
I am going to meet all kinds of people, and I like her, she is my
friend, and he can not pick my friends. I then told him that I love
him, and stated that no outside person can influence me to change my
feelings for him. I asked if he thought she would do that. He said, if
she doesn't influence you, then someone else
will!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So, he said it. He is trying to keep me
away from others for fear that I will loose interest in him. I told him
that he has to to learn to trust me and have faith in my love for him
or it will not work. He said he has had too many bad experiences in the
past. I said I was sorry, but that is not my fault, if he can not see
that and can not trust me by now, then something is wrong. I told him
that if he could get over his lack of trust for me, then we could have
a chance at a healthy relationship, but if he can't, then it will never
work. I asked him if he could do that, and he still has not given me an
answer.
About my having other needs, and wanting to do things outside our
relationship sometimes, he still has a problem. I love music, and
that is why I wanted to go out and listen to this singer. She is really
great, but only sings on Sunday, Monday and Tuesday nights. I have gone
and heard her sing two times. I enjoy it. The first time I went, I
went with two girls from work. My boyfriend was out of town then. The
second time, I took him to hear her sing, along with my friends from
work. I'm sure he is shocked that I already made friends. Last night,
I was going to listen to this singer again. She is the best singer
around, and people come to see her from all over. The food is good too.
It's a nice place. Well, last night he tried to make a point by saying
that if Elton John were coming to town for a concert, I would say
"screw you" and go. (I love Elton John) and if a good friend of mine
flew into town the next day for one night and wanted to get together
with me, I would say "screw you" and go see her. I said "YES" so what?
I love Elton John, why shouldn't I be able to go see him if he were in
town and it would make me happy to see him. Where does this "screw you"
come into play? Why is this wrong? Why should I say, I love Elton John,
and I could go see him, but I'm going to deny that for myself, because
it is only something that will make me happy and I'd be being very
selfish to do something I would enjoy. Then he said, but you would
then go out again the next night to see a friend, that would be two
nights in a row. I said, so, it would happen to be a busy week. Things
would just have happened that way. Am I suppose to say to my friend, I
would really love to see you, but I already did something I enjoy last
night, and it would be very selfish for me to do something outside my
relationship again. Well, he said, see you are very selfish and you
only care about having a good time all the time and you don't care
about me at all. Then he started with, if you go out one night a week,
it will turn to two nights a week and pretty soon you will be going out
every night of the week and I won't even see you anymore. This is
ridiculous. Even when I was single, I didn't go out all the time. I
made that point, and he said that is what worries him. I didn't do it
when I was single but now I want to. What can I say to that? I have
been with him for a year now, and have done practically nothing for
myself. I feel guilty if I take the time to paint my finger nails!!
It was getting real late, and before we went to sleep, I told him that
I do love him, and if he could find it inside him to trust me and
believe in my love for him, then we might have a chance and we will
only have a chance if we can have a healthy relationship. I said I will
not stay in an unhealthy relationship, Life is too short to be unhappy.
He said he never dealt with anyone like me before. I said I would hate
to meet any of his ex girlfriends then because they must have been
mindless puppets. If he wants to be with someone that doesn't think
anything of herself and isn't going to stand up for her wants and needs
then he is with the wrong person. I also told him that I do not and
will not ever depend on him. I am too independent and smart for that. I
told him I already made other provisions in case I have to leave. Of
course he said, "See, you don't love me, you only think of yourself
that is why you found another alternative". I said it has nothing to
do with not loving you, but I will not be pushed in a corner with no
where to go. I told him that he should want someone to be with them
because they choose to be with him, not because they have to be with
him. I can have other friends, other interests and still love him. He
does not have to take those things away from me.
This morning, I asked him again if he thought he could overcome this
inability to trust me or anyone else. He said he doesn't know. He has
been burned to many times. I asked him if he really found it so hard to
believe that someone could love him, and not be influenced by anyone or
anything to change those feelings? I asked if he really thought that
little of himself. Guess what he said? This has absolutely no relevance
at all to the situation. He said he just has the feeling that if he
asks me to do something and it will not benefit me in anyway, or meet
my needs, then I wont' do it. What???!!! This was uncalled for and very
untrue. For the past year, all I have done is things for him, and I
have never said no or complained about anything he has asked me to to.
I have taken vacation days to help him clean and work and I have worked
every weekend and week night doing things for him with out even a thank
you. Just because I love him and enjoyed doing things for him and
helping him. I told him that I was sorry he felt that way, and it was
not even close to the truth". If he doesn't realize that, then I'm not
going to waste my time trying to convince him it isn't true. I just
walked away and came to work without saying a word.
Now I really don't know where we stand or what will happen next. I have
a feeling that he will tell me that it is not working out the way he
wanted and we should end it. This really will break my heart, and it
brought tears to my eyes just writing it, but maybe it will be for the
best. Unless, he decides he will try to change and it is worth working
out.
|
| 1312.12 | | JUPITR::KAGNO | Mom to the Wrecking Crew | Wed Oct 21 1992 13:44 | 23 |
| I wonder if other women "burned" him, or if they simply displayed the
same independence and need to be their own person that you are. This
man won't change, because he doesn't believe the problems lie with him.
I'm sure I wrote this in reply to 1278, but it is worth repeating. My
ex husband believed that we should share the same friends, interests,
eat at the same time and eat the same food, and basically do everything
together. I felt very guilty for deviating from his view of normalcy
in a couples relationship, and spent a lot of time justifying and
rationalizing his behavior. I always felt like I was letting him down,
when I was really letting myself down all those years. Even when he
told me he wanted to divorce because the marriage wasn't working for
him anymore, I struggled to keep us together thinking he would change,
that I just might be able to get through to him somehow. When I
finally left, I was amazed at how EASY it was to be alone, and how
wonderful it felt to not have to rationalize and analyze things to
death.
What do you know abou this man's upbringing? Sounds like he needs a
great deal of mothering and coddling. Please reconsider staying with
this guy. Things will only get worse for you, while he will have you
right where he wants you.
|
| 1312.13 | Selfishness! | HYEND::LSIGEL | When stars collide like you and I | Wed Oct 21 1992 13:54 | 9 |
| I did not read all replys but he sounds like he is insensitive to your
needs, if he wont allow you time with your friends (which HE was
included too) he is going to alienate you from all your freinds which
is very selfish. If you want to live that kind of sheltered life it is
up to you but if not ask him to take up the hobby of "Hiking"!!
Good Luck!!
Lynne
|
| 1312.14 | | HYDRA::HEATHER | my heart hurts | Wed Oct 21 1992 14:03 | 11 |
| Dear Anon,
*Nothing* he said to you the other night indicates any real
willingness to change on his part. Are you really willing to
hang around and hope that he might? It could be a very long
wait......I don't hear that he thinks he is the problem, regardless
of whether he's been "burned" before or not.
I say...."Put on those sailing shoes".....
bright blessings,
-HA
|
| 1312.15 | | XCUSME::HOGGE | I am the King of Nothing | Wed Oct 21 1992 14:10 | 25 |
| Hmmm actually, I think if you are seriously considereing trying to
'make it work' you've taken a good first step. You made him open up
a little and explain some of the motiviation behind his behavior.
The next step is to get him to realize it IS his problem, and not
somthing you caused to happen. Then hopefully convince him that
some counseling is in order to learn to deal with it. Since I've
been in contact via mail, I'd also like to say again, that there
seems to be some communication problems in the relationship as well.
This is something a competent marriage counselor can help you both
work on. Including his 'twisting things around'.
I still have doubts about your chances of making it work, but you've
taken a couple of good solid steps toward that goal. Achieving it,
is another matter, but you've voiced your opinion and you're giving
him a chance to consider his actions, and decide if he wants to work
at making changes to save the relationship or not. The rest is going
to depend on his dicisions. You may want to point out that holding
the past responsible for the present is a bet absurd. You aren't the
women he's had experience with before, and his holding you accountable
for their actions is like me spanking my neighbors daughter because
my son put turpintine on our cat.
Skip
|
| 1312.16 | | DELNI::STHILAIRE | Food, Shelter & Diamonds | Wed Oct 21 1992 14:45 | 18 |
| re .0, if you were a personal friend of mine, telling me this same
story, my question at this point would be - What is it that you
*like* about this guy? Why would you even want it to work? What's the
attraction? Frankly, you have painted a rather unattractive portrait
of your SO, and from your description it's difficult for me to imagine
why anyone would want to be in a relationship with him. There must be
something good about him to make you want it to work, or, and I don't
intend this in a rude or mean way, are you just desperate to be in a
relationship with someone? Because if not, he really doesn't sound
worth it. It sounds like he just wants someone to become part of his
life, without acknowledging you as a separate person with a life of
your own at all. Nobody is worth that. Without knowing what it is you
like about this guy, I'd have to agree with those who say it's best to
move on. Just be thankful you aren't married to him, you have no kids,
and that you apparently don't need his financial support, and leave.
Lorna
|
| 1312.17 | | TLE::LESSARD | | Wed Oct 21 1992 14:51 | 38 |
|
You know, like others here, I do not often respond to notes.
Yours is such a compelling story, that it is impossible NOT to
respond.....
First, I commend you for standing up to him and letting him know
that his need for control is a problem. That must have been very
difficult and scary to do, knowing what his reaction would be.
Secondly, is is apparent you know there's a real problem here.
By virtue of the fact you write in here, you know deep down that this
is not the way you want to live. It must really be hard to be
treated like gold (but only when you are a good girl!) and then be walked
on like dirt (you do not do what he says!). How confusing!
You know, I wonder if the events you attended were somewhat different,
if he still wouldn't have the same problem. Anon, I honestly think
if you were to go shopping with your friends, take a craft class,
ar attend school, he would *STILL* have a problem with you being
away from him and your home. I don't think the fact you are attending
an event in what he perceives to be a "singles environment" is the
issue - it's that you are away from "him".
And you should have time for these hobbies and interests! Imagine growing
old with an individual with no outside interests, and no friends. Imagine
one of you passing on - how would one of you be able to survive without
the other? Neither of you would know how, should your lives continue in
this manner.
All I can say is, from what I read, you know what the right thing to do
is. It's just a matter of when he ticks you off enough to leave.
I sincerely hope you know that you would not be getting this kind
of response in the notes file if something were not drastically wrong
with this situation. People care about what happens to you. I hope
you continue to question and probe his "concerns" and criticisms!
I also hope you continue to write here, to let people know what
is happening!
|
| 1312.18 | | SCHOOL::BOBBITT | up on the watershed... | Wed Oct 21 1992 14:52 | 24 |
|
sounds llike you had some *really* meaningful communication.
I was living with someone who was "holding me hostage with his pain".
He blamed me a lot for not being with him enough, thinking only of
myself, when for 2 years I had done nothing but try to help him - given
up friends, hobbies, lifestyle, to be with him and try to help him be
happy. Eventually he threatened to kill himself if I didn't stay with
him. I insisted he move out. I was a basket case while he was moving
out - he kept calling me and telling me I caused all this pain, and he
wanted to die. He's blaming you for his problems so you will stay, and
play the obedience/control game.
You are not an awful person for wanting a life you love.
You need to take care of yourself first, that's what HUMAN BEINGS DO!
If your needs are not being met with an honest attempt at satisfaction
the relationship is not working.
Bravo for you.
If you want to talk, dial me up.
-Jody
|
| 1312.19 | | SPESHR::POPIENIUCK | | Wed Oct 21 1992 15:43 | 21 |
| I had a real difficult time reading this note, and the annonymous writer's
replies. If I sound insensitive, I'm sorry.
First off, you can't tell someone you are independent in one breath, then
ask for permission to use their car in the next. Actions show independence,
not words.
You are responsible for your own happiness. If you choose to live with someone
who treats you like dog doo-doo. You own it. People can only be victims, if
they allow themselves to be. You are choosing to be a victim.
If he feels bad you go out, that's his stuff. He owns it, not you. Let him
deal with his own insecurities himself. You have to do things for yourself.
If he chooses to end the relationship because you want to spend time with
friends, then there was not much love there anyways. People in love don't
throw in the towel because of silly stuff like that.
|
| 1312.20 | | SCHOOL::BOBBITT | up on the watershed... | Wed Oct 21 1992 15:47 | 10 |
|
maybe it's time to suggest counseling to him.
It seems you both have different views of what should be happening.
If he wants a healthy relationship, he should be willing to do it, yes?
-Jody
p.s. you are not responsible for his past, nor should you be held at
fault or treated poorly or mistrustfully because of it.
|
| 1312.21 | Please do whats right by YOU | ASDS::VERRIER | | Wed Oct 21 1992 16:17 | 46 |
| Anon,
I'm another read-only noter in this conference who has to reply
after reading your note...
First off, I commend you for finally standing up to him and telling
him how you feel and what YOU want out of the relationship. And I
was glad to see that you got some feedback from him.
But, I wondered when you said in your last paragraph about
maybe he will decide to change and then maybe things will work out.
Change, how ?? His inability to trust you and communicate with
you, or change the ultimate control he seems to have over you ?
By the sounds of it, I don't think he will change. Why should he ?
You have to ask permission to go out with your friends, you are
dependant on him for transportation, and you feel that you don't
even deserve to take the time to do your nails ??
He knows that you love him, and by your past actions, he probably
also knows that you'll put up with alot for him. I think that by
him saying that it isn't the way he thought it would be and maybe
he would be bettr off miserable alone, it was just a scare tactic
he's using to "make you behave".
And you both need to stop threatening each other with "maybe we
should just break it off". Seems like you both brought it up each
time you talked and were not happy with the situation. Either both of
you need to work on it together, or just end it. But by you saying
"you have to change or this isn't going to work" and then having him
NOT change and you still stay in the relationship, he knows you won't
leave him, period! It's almost like the little boy who cried wolf one
too many times.
Alot of us have been there and speak from experience. I don't want
you to read this note and think that I am judging you or your life,
but I couldn't help but get angry when I read what this man has
done to you.
You have to love yourself and do whats right by YOU ! If things
do not work out and you break it off, you said it would break your
heart...just remember, hearts heal, but your spirit may not !!
Best wishes in whatever you decide.
Kim
|
| 1312.22 | Stop walking on eggshells and make some omlets.. | KNGBUD::B_SIART | Say something that makes me think! | Wed Oct 21 1992 17:14 | 13 |
|
Dear Anon,
Bravo, you taken the first step towards a healthier you.
Wether that means he's in or out of your life. Taking the first
step can be the hardest, you've done that, and you should be
commended for it. Keep in touch here.
-Brian
|
| 1312.23 | | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Why not ask why? | Wed Oct 21 1992 17:48 | 50 |
|
Re basenoter -
Well, it sure sounds like you've successfully communicated a lot
of your concerns about having a healthy relationship with him in a
healthy way last night!
He sounds like he also shares the fear or terror I mentioned
previously. He's so scared that he'll lose you, that he cant even
trust *you*, let alone anyone you might be with or encounter!
I wonder if that's a big part of your mutual attraction; you're
both so scared, so terrorized of the pain of being alone; surely you
can relate to - you got a hard line to - how he feels about it and
vice versa.
From what you said about him in your recent reply, I gather
that this guy is a *master manipulator*. (Go! Go! Go and be with your
friend....I'll just be miserable here alone...you dont care about me!
<sniff>)
Also, from your recent reply, I was pretty well shocked at how
well you've cleaned up your act in short order. If I remember right,
you did that also in the last string - it was like people said all
this stuff in reply to your initial note - and then your next entry
suddenly had this 180 degree quality to it...
I dont mean at all to be sarcastic, or for this to sound like
a put-down in any way, but here I almost wanted to ask "Where'd you get
the "healthy pills"? - Spare any?" I mean, from what you wrote, the
change in you from your base note to reply was like...*impressive*!
I was like "Wow! - at first she was bamboozled by this whole thing
and now - like in a day - she's going through it with this textbook
level of clarity and the conviction of Job!"
My point is that if this is like, really what happened, then bravo!
I really think you're going to make it! However, I'm reminded of an
old addage that "water seeks it's own level" and if he's a master
manipulator and you're with him and you, uh, just happen to be an
expert in rationalizing and formulating justifications (I'm
speculating here) boy - you mix *those* two qualities together and...
heck, I'll believe anything you write!
*You* sounded wonderful in your last reply. I hope that what I
read was real - and not written in a clever "twice removed" attempt
to justify staying with this guy, because now you've shown us all
how effectively you've put the ball in his court, yet, it'll be "worth
working out" as soon as he says "Okay I'll try".
Joe
|
| 1312.24 | | PIPPER::SHAMEL | We all live in a yellow subroutine | Wed Oct 21 1992 17:59 | 47 |
| I'm a MRO (Mostly Read Only) noter because of time constraints but as
other people mentioned, I find it difficult to not to reply to this
string. I pretty much agree with all of the replies here and will
quickly add my own two cents worth.
Each of the following is a codependent behavior and All of them are
going on in and affect the two of you in the "boyfriend doesn't want
to see you have a good time with other people" scenario such as it is:
Allowing others to set limits on what you can do.
People-pleasing - trying to keep everyone happy.
Assisting others in maintaining their denial.
Putting others needs/wants first.
Reality and confrontation avoidance.
This is not a healthy scenario for either of you because it is so
tangled up in codependency - that's what needs to get purged out in
order to leave the problem with the owner for resolution.
Then I read your reply (.11) I kept say to myself "YES!!!....
YES!!!.... YES!!!". I can imagine you must have been scared half
to death but you stood up for yourself and claimed some of your
power. That is fantastic! Don't stop now.... keep going!
Your boyfriend sounds like one of the neediest guys I've ever
read/heard about. I think he is scared to death that you will
leave him, or meet someone else, so he does whatever he can to
keep you isolated and all to himself by laying a guilt trip on
you. The way you describe his fear of you going out one night
a week with a friend..... then two.... and then *every* night
and not spending any time with him sounds like a little boy
crying for constant attention.... "PAY ATTENTION TO ME...
... please pay attention to me!" but he does not want you to
know this - I doubt that he is aware of it himself.
It seems you have a fear of loosing him and he knows this. He
uses your fear as a mask for his own by making his threats. This
allows him to feel strong and feel like he has power over you.
In the past you have GIVEN him power over you but in .11 you have
taken some of your power back. Please keep it up..... and live
your own life, not the one someone else has chosen for you.
Rick
|
| 1312.25 | $ .02 worth | CGVAX2::WOOD | Pat Wood - LSP - DDD/T24 | Thu Oct 22 1992 08:59 | 7 |
| Whatever you decide to do, I hope that while you are deciding, you are
stashing away some cash. You'll need you're own car, deposit for your
own place to live, etc. Don't compound the trouble you are having in
making your decisions by being financially and logistically dependent
on him, too.
Pat
|
| 1312.26 | | CSLALL::LSUNDELL | Of all the things I've lost____ | Thu Oct 22 1992 12:35 | 16 |
| re: .11
<clap, clap, clap, clap, clap!!!!!!> Way to go darlin! Now...if he
doesn't show any signs of trying - as much as it's gonna hurt, and it's
gonna hurt because you do love him - get out of that relationship. And
don't be surprised it his denial is so strong he blames you for the end
of it...the guys' got no clue hun. Whether or not he's willing to try
and get a clue...well that remains to be seen.
Good luck - and remember, YOU come first. Bending here and there and
compromising to make a relationship work is one thing when both sides
are doing it...but that doesn't mean you become a door mat for him to
walk on.
Lynne
|
| 1312.27 | Reply from anonymous author of base note | QUARK::MODERATOR | | Thu Oct 22 1992 14:20 | 114 |
| Thank you for all your opinions and advise. It has really helped. I talked
to my friend, the one who is going through a divorce, yesterday, and she
asked me if I wanted to get an apartment with her. She has to get one any-
way, and it really sounded like a good idea. We get along good, and it
would be much more affordable. I have other options too, and I have been
saving money. I also checked into leasing a car, and in one hour I would
be driving a new car. With this in mind, I went home to see if anything
that we talked about the night before had a real effect on him.
He was trying to be real nice to me, and making small talk. After dinner I
asked him if he wanted to try to make this relationship work and if he
would be able to have a relationship with me without trying to control me. He
said, "How can we have a healthy relationship when I don't even trust you?"
Bingo!!! My feelings exactly. I said we can't, and there is no reason for
us to continue. I am a very trust worthy person and I don't deserve this.
Then he said that he used to trust me, but I've done things that made him
change his mind. Not true. After we moved here, he had to go back to
where we moved from for a couple weeks. While he was gone, I went out to
dinner with two girls from work and we stayed to listen to that singer. I
got home later then I wanted, but I also was not driving. The next day he
kept asking me questions about it, and then he started to say things like,
Oh, he came over to your table, before you told me she went to his table.
Why did you tell me that if he came to your table? I said that I never said
she went to his table, why would I say that if he came to our table? He
said I was lying to him, and telling him 10 different stories about the
same thing. This got me so mad because I didn't do anything wrong and I was
not making up stories, there was nothing to hide. One thing I can always
say about myself is that I do not lie and he has no right accusing me of
it. To get back to last night, he was saying that this was the reason why
he didn't trust me. I told him that that was his problem. I can be trusted,
I did not do anything wrong, and I did not tell him 10 different stories
about a very innocent night out with a few girls from work. I told him that
he has very big problems, and it goes deeper then just his inability to
trust. He wants to find reasons not to trust people. I also said that only
a liar accuses someone of lying. I left the room. I called my parents (who
were planning on coming to visit me next week) and told them not to come,
because it was not a good time. I also told them that I probably would not
be home for Thanksgiving because I had to save my money but I would be
in touch with them soon. Then he did the unbelievable, he who is above
having a problem or admitting a mistake came to me with tears in his eyes
and said that he knows he does have a problem, and he really wants to try
to get over it. He wants to be able to trust me, and be happy and relaxed
with me. He said he doesn't want to loose me, and asked me if I could help
him to not be like this. This is truly out of his character, he never shows
any weakness or vulnerability. This was a big step for him. Actually it was
exactly what I wanted. So, why wasn't I relieved? That is what I'm trying
to figure out. Maybe I'm just burnt out, I don't know. It could be because
I finally took the steps to leave, and had already accepted the fact that
that was what I was going to do. In my mind, I had already left him. I do
know that I really do love him, but this is not going to be easy. I also
asked him what he thought of the idea of me getting my own place for a while
while we work things out. He said no way. He wanted me to live there with him,
and if I didn't, then that would be the end of our relationship. So, to
clarify this, I asked if he was saying that in order to have a relationship
with him, I absolutely have to live with him too. He said yes. This is kind
of weird because he was with his last girlfriend for three years, and
she always wanted to move in with him, and he didn't want her to. But that
was another relationship.
I know that he really does want to change, and he is willing to try. It
might work, and it probably will work for a while, but I honestly think
that he may not be able to change the way he is. I do love him very much,
and I am seriously going to try to make it work, with his help. He has
asked me for my help, so we'll try together. I really don't know how to
help him, but I do know that one day next week, I'm going to do something
on my own with a friend. I'll see what happens. I also have to convince my
self that I can do this without feeling guilty. But that will take time too.
I just want to respond to a couple of entries.
RE - .12 I also wonder if other woman burned him or if they just didn't
let him control them. He is 50 years old and still single. Although
he has been divorced for at least 25 years. He was married for two
years. He went with his last girlfriend for 3 years. He broke up
with her because he says he caught her cheating on him. She is a
friend of my good friend, and she says she never cheated on him.
I almost believe she didn't, but he thinks he caught her cheating
on him and that was it. He said she will never admit it.
Your ex and my boyfriend sound so similar in that they both
believe that we should do everything together. And I also feel
guilty do deviate from this. He would take it personally as if I don't
like to be with him.
I know enough about his upbringing. He is very close to his mother,
and she is a very warm loving person. He respects her a lot, and
they always talk to each other on the phone. They are very close.
RE - .13 Lynne. You said it is selfish of him to not allow me time with my
friends, and he believes it is very selfish of me to want
to spend time with my friends.
re - .16 Lorna. There is a lot to like about him. He is a very likable man.
He is very handsome, strong, smart, caring etc. Everyone of you
would like him if you met him. He has a nice way about him, he talks
nice, he is fun. He is gentle and very loving towards me most of the
time. But yes, he has a problem. He kept these problems hidden from
me at the beginning. I was with him for months before any of this
started to happen, and by then I was head over heals in love. Our
relationship was too good to be true. We were, and still are, so
much in love. At the beginning I felt very cared for, and it was
nice until I started to feel controlled.
RE - .17 The funny thing about my standing up to him and letting him know
that there was a problem is that I wasn't scared at all. I felt like
my own self again and I didn't care what the consequences would be.
re - .20 We did talk about counseling, and he is considering it. That is also
a big step for him. He once told me that his ex girlfriend was seeing
a counselor and she wanted him to go to. He said, "Why should I have
gone to see a counselor, when she was the one with a problem?"
Well this is getting too long. I better get some work done. Thank you all
for your help.
|
| 1312.28 | | LABC::PENN | Equestrian Lady | Thu Oct 22 1992 14:40 | 27 |
| I am also a Read Only Noter but felt the need to reply. I to was in a
relationship where my SO wanted me to spend all my spare time with him,
but he was able to spend time with other people. He went even as far to
accuse me of wanting to sleep with every man I meet when I decided to move
out from my family's house into an apartment by my self.
He also didn't like me becoming close friends with certain people. He
tried everything to keep me from seeing one particular friend. She helped
me understand that I was a person who deserved to be treated better.
When I finally stood up to him, he blamed my actions on being brainwashed
by her. When I was insistent that I wouldn't put up with being treated
the way I felt I had been treated, he asked me to marry him. I was
stunned. But in MY HEART I knew this man would not provide me with the
moral support and caring that I needed and wanted in that special person.
I knew he would never change how he treated women.
It was the best decision I ever did. It was hard, lots of crying,
questioning did I make the right decision, should I call him and go back?
Once, the feelings inside turned into anger, anger towards him on how I
had been treated, I was clean of him. I was then able to continue onwards.
I can't tell you the best thing to do, but go with what is in your heart
and use your better judgment. It may hurt now, but the hurt will stop
after you feel inside the right decision is made.
Good Luck,
|
| 1312.29 | if you really want to help him, go. | BENONI::SWALKER | | Thu Oct 22 1992 14:52 | 15 |
|
If he's so resistant to the idea that you move out while the two of you
try to work things out that his response is "no way", he is still
trying to control you, hoping it will all blow over. This doesn't
sound like the response of someone who really, truly wants to change.
As long as you are living in his house and driving his car, etc., it
will be that much easier for the two of you to fall back into the old
patterns. If he doesn't want you enough to keep you in his life on
terms other than his, there's your answer: move in with your friend,
and find someone else who *really* values you. You're not helping him
change by staying there; actually, it will be harder for him this way.
Sharon
|
| 1312.30 | If you love somebody, set them free... | KNGBUD::B_SIART | Say something that makes me think! | Thu Oct 22 1992 18:18 | 20 |
|
His reaction of coming to you and crying about himself only sounds
like he's trying to get your pity. This is the same types of reactions
that I have had happen to me when I've threaten a break-up in my
controlled environment. This is just my opinion, but the fact of the
matter is people don't change there attitudes and patterns of life
overnight. It just sounds like a controlling situation, to play upon
your emotions and tell you things you may want to hear. If he really
wanted to work things out, he'd let you live on your own.
I can put myself in his state of mind and I really do think he's
still playing games with you. That is how I feel, and I'm sure the
consensus here is the same.
I still say bravo to you for already taking the steps and preparing
yourself physically and mentally towards leaving him.
-Brian
|
| 1312.32 | | MPO::ROBINSON | you have HOW MANY cats??? | Fri Oct 23 1992 09:38 | 31 |
|
I replied in the last string, and I suppose what I want to
say now won't be much different from what I said then. He
is only concerned with himself. He wasn't crying for your
relationship, he was crying for himself. He NEEDS to have
you around, he's insecure. If you weren't there, and at times
he can expect, doing the things that he expects (ie coming
home right after work and cooking dinner), he can't handle it
because he doesn't know what to do with himself. I would be
surprised if he does not either have a substance abuse problem
or is an ACOA. He fits the profile. My ex did the same thing,
when it came right down to the end, and I made a stand and said
that's it, I AM leaving - for the first time, he cried and
promised he would try harder. And I had the same reaction you
did - I was thrilled that I got that reaction - but I didn't
beleive it (or him) or trust that he would feel the same way
tomorrow, or as soon as I relented. (and I was right) He may
not be actually calculating out all these things, he may not
even be aware of the reasons behind his behavior or how far out
of line he is - and for those very reasons you will never be
able to change his behavior, that's strictly up to him.
The hardest thing about leaving my ex was that I still loved
him - but I knew that I loved the man inside, the potential that
I knew was there. I had to accept that *I* could not draw that
wonderful man out, it was buried under the monster. So even though
I knew there was a man there that I could love, I had to let him
go because he *didn't want to be* that man.
Sherry
|
| 1312.33 | BRAVO ! | ASDS::VERRIER | | Fri Oct 23 1992 10:23 | 15 |
| Anon,
You said you want to "try and do this without feeling guilty."
I think that you might feel guilty because you think/know you are
"hurting" him.
But even more than that, because you are thinking about yourself
for a change, and whats best for you. BRAVO !! You have seemed
to always put him and his feelings before your own, and I am
very glad to see you are doing what you feel is best for you.
It's not easy to do for someone who's accustomed putting their
own feelings on a back burner ! BRAVO !
Best Regards,
Kim
|
| 1312.34 | | XCUSME::HOGGE | I am the King of Nothing | Fri Oct 23 1992 12:18 | 45 |
| Well, here's another 2 cents.... Hmmmm I can almost smell the coffee.
Something you should be doing as well.
First, he hasn't admitted to anything he's agreed to your accusations.
Tell him counseling is a requirment because you don't know how else to
get through the problem.
Second, He's STILL trying to control the situation, when all else
fails, tears are a last resort.... with them, he hopes to 'show you'
how much he cares, how important you are to him, and that is the reason
for his behavior.
You've taken some big steps, now it's time to carry through, IF he
cares as much as he claims, he'll let you move out without the 'If you
do it's over between us' line. He CARE, it shouldn't matter where you
live, and giving the 'me or nothing' demand at this point is nothing
more then a round about way of having things HIS way still.
Don't let him trap you, he's gone from obvious behavior patterns to
some rather sneaky ones, to achieve the same results.
"I'll go along with her, admit I'm wrong and she'll get over this in
a while...." sorry, it's just not the right kind of answer to the
problem. It should be, "okay, I need to develope my trust in her,
allow to leave as a show of good faith, and get my act together."
He's insecure in the relationship, jealous, and self serving. And
he hasn't admitted this as a problem to himself, he's simply agreed
with your reasoning to serve his own means, needs, and wants.
When he agree's to let you go, and (or at LEAST) seek some counseling
to deal with his problem, THEN he's admitting there's something wrong.
Something HE needs to attend to and take care of.
It's one thing to try and be supportive of him, another to let him keep
up this pretence and put you right back into what you are trying to get
out of.
Like I said, my 2 cents, you've taken some major steps in getting some
communication going, but he's trying hard not to listen. Don't let him
get away with it, and DON'T let him pull this 'Stay with me or forget
the whole thing' stuff. It's Hogwash and very VERY shallow.
Skip
|
| 1312.35 | | CSLALL::LSUNDELL | Of all the things I've lost____ | Fri Oct 23 1992 13:51 | 15 |
| I agree with Skip... He doesn't want to loose you, so he'll say
anything to keep you around, and then when the "pressure" is off, he'll
be back to his old self again.
Move out while he goes for counseling...if he doesn't agree with that,
or says it's over because you're leaving....kiss him good bye
sweetheart.
This story reminds me of the "virginia slims" ads...."You've come a long
way baby." ;-))
Good luck, and hugs,
Lynne
|
| 1312.36 | Anonymous reply | QUARK::MODERATOR | | Fri Oct 23 1992 17:56 | 38 |
| The following reply has been contributed by a member of our community
who wishes to remain anonymous. If you wish to contact the author by
mail, please send your message to QUARK::MODERATOR, specifying the
conference name and note number. Your message will be forwarded with
your name attached unless you request otherwise.
Steve
Dear Anonymous Basenoter,
I want you to know that I sympathize with your situation.
However, I was struck by what you wrote in your anonymous reply
(1312.27), when asked why you love him. "He is very handsome" was very
near the top of your list as one of the reasons you love him, while
"caring" came third or fourth.
His "handsomeness" and your attraction to it have little to do with
love, but with physical attraction. There is a difference. People
often mistake physical attraction (and good sex) for love.
Is your physical attraction to him blinding you somewhat to his
behavior toward you?
I know a woman who is currently in a relationship with a man to whom
she is attracted and with whom she has good sex - but she is very
unhappy in the relationship and is not getting what she really wants
out of it. Why does she stay in it? She keeps hoping he'll change. She
keeps mistaking their sex for love. And (this is the saddest part),
she is not interested in a man unless there is an immediate physical
attraction.
|
| 1312.37 | | HDLITE::ZARLENGA | Michael Zarlenga, Alpha P/PEG | Sun Oct 25 1992 11:29 | 7 |
| .36> People often mistake physical attraction (and good sex) for love.
And people often need physical attraction (and good sex) for love.
Speaking only for myself, I've never fallen in love with someone whom
I thought was unattractive and bad sex can also kill an otherwise good
relationship.
|
| 1312.38 | | SCHOOL::BOBBITT | up on the watershed... | Sun Oct 25 1992 16:27 | 8 |
|
In "Women who love too much" there's a section that describes how the
electricity around the sex can directly relate to how much
angst/anguish/drama is going on in the relationhip - it isn't always
the sign of a healthy relationship!
-Jody
|
| 1312.39 | | DELNI::STHILAIRE | Food, Shelter & Diamonds | Mon Oct 26 1992 08:57 | 19 |
| re .37, I have to agree with you there, Mike. I've never fallen in
love with anybody I didn't find attractive either. I can't imagine
meeting a man, thinking, "My, isn't he unattractive!" and then going on
to fall in love with him! I might go on to like him, and be friends
with him, but that's entirely different.
This isn't to say that men have to look like Mel Gibson or Tom Cruise
(drop dead gorgeous), in order for me to love them, but whatever they
look like, *I* have to find them attractive. None of the men I have
ever been in love with would be every woman's cup of tea, but I found
them all attractive.
While I agree that having a relationship with a person that I found
physically attractive, but disliked otherwise, wouldn't work for long,
neither would a relationship with a man that I liked but found
physically unappealing.
Lorna
|
| 1312.40 | | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Why not ask why? | Mon Oct 26 1992 09:05 | 44 |
|
Tough call.
Some people believe that the power of Love can conquer all...
Given you have the wearwithall to maintain your requirements as a
constant necessity for the relationship to exist, he wont be able to
revert back to his "old self" or whatever - will he?
It *may* have been a ploy; "alligator tears" to get you to stay
- or it may have been an actual moment of personal vulnerability for
this man. Who's to say for sure, from this "Notes window" perspective?
When someone's willing to make amends with me, I rarely hold back
my willingness with them out of spite. Only you can say if his tears
were the last ace up his sleeve, or an honest expression of sorrow for
his behavior so far and a genuine plea for your help.
To put even another dimension on it, some people believe that it
is best to simply cut the lashings and let someone like this sink
into their pain, because it is always in the pain that they will find
their healing.
Some people believe that the very context of relationship is the
best gift you could ever give someone else, as a vehicle or platform
from which their own recovery and personal growth can develop and
blossom. (Awwwwwww.)
Wearwithall. It all depends on what you'd be willing to put
into it. No one ever said a relationship with someone else is *easy*.
Probably second only to raising a child or children, as being to
most difficult thing you'll ever do!
What's your assessment of this person - should you choose to have
a relationship with him? What's his level of "wearwithall"? Comittment?
What's he willing to put into it? What's he willing to put into
himself, as far as an effort to change for the better? Is your assessment
of him accurate in these matters?
Do you both understand that the answer to these "wearwithall"
questions is basically, "whatever it takes!"? If it's not - that's a
good criteria to "end it" with. Do you know that yet and are you sure?
Joe
|
| 1312.41 | | XCUSME::HOGGE | I am the King of Nothing | Mon Oct 26 1992 09:11 | 27 |
| And so you have it folks, we're STILL a bunch of 'looks first' animals.
Sad.... very sad, doesn't ANYONE out there ever care more for the
person INSIDE the shell? I mean, take the first layer of skin off
anyone and we're ALL ugly as sin.
I don't care much about looks, the things that attract me to a girl are
based on a lot of different things first. Don't misunderstand me, if
she is good looking, then that's a bonus, but it isn't the primary
concern in my relationships.
I care about compatability, interests, intelligence, and other such
things far more then 'Does she have good mucscle tone, is the curves
in the right place? Are her legs long enough, shaply enough? Does she
have all her teeth?
The thing that amazes me most in our society is that women and men both
complain about the lack of quality in their relationships, and then
instead of seeking out a quality relationship go right back to worrying
about physical aspects and attributes first.
*Sigh*
I really wonder if the human race is as intelligent as it claims.
Skip
|
| 1312.42 | i just can't relate to what you say | DELNI::STHILAIRE | Food, Shelter & Diamonds | Mon Oct 26 1992 09:43 | 21 |
| re .41, but how can you have sex with a woman that you consider to be
physically unattractive??? I can't understand how people can do this.
I could no more enjoy having sex with a man I considered physically
unattractive than I could enjoy eating vomit or shit.
(On the other hand, some of my girlfriends thought my former SO, Rik,
was homely, and *I* found him very attractive, in the beginning, so,
perhaps, "the eye of the beholder" syndrome, is what makes wanting to
have someone who is attractive work, and be not so bad....)
The way I see it is this. If people were not expected to have sex, in
a couple relationship, then looks wouldn't matter to me, and I could
have a couple relationship with a person I didn't find physically
attractive, as long as I liked the person. But, as long as most people
continue to expect sex to be a part of an SO relationship, I'm going to
have to be physically attracted to the people I have relationships
with, because frankly I don't fancy wanting to puke my guts out
everytime my SO wants to make love.
Lorna
|
| 1312.43 | Reply from anonymous author of base note | QUARK::MODERATOR | | Mon Oct 26 1992 12:43 | 103 |
| Hi. I'm thinking..... Something is not rightI am still very bothered.
First of all, I think that the problem with our relationship goes
beyond the lack of trust, and his trying to control me. Sometimes he
behaves in a way that upsets me, and I have never been able to put it
in words, but in my mind, it upset me. This again is only once in a
while. It happened again last night. I also think that what we talked
about the other night, didn't quite get through to him. Yes, he
admitted there was problem, and we were able to pin point the fact that
has an inability to trust, but I don't think he really believes he has
a problem at all. But I'm just guessing.
I do want to say that I did not really think my boyfriend was so
handsome until I fell in love with him, and now I think he is one of
the most handsome men I have ever seen. So, his looks are not what
attracted me to him. I was not even sexually attracted to him at first,
but now it is a different story.
We had a wonderful weekend together. It was really nice, the way it is
most of the time. We got along great, and we were both so happy. We are
so in love with each other, and I found myself wondering why I ever
thought there was a problem. This happens a lot, when it is good, it is
so good, and I can't believe or even think of what I could have been
upset about. I even try to think about what it was that bothered me,
and I can't.
Thursday or Friday of last week, my friend asked me again if I would be
interested in going to that same restaurant to see that singer with her
and another girl from work either Monday or Tuesday. I told her I would
love to go. She suggested I just tell my boyfriend that I was going
with them, and not even invite him. That night when I went home, I told
him that if my friends go to see that singer Monday or Tuesday, he
better not get upset. He said he wouldn't, he would either go with me,
or if he didn't want to, then I could go with them. I said okay,
because she mentioned that they might be going.
We had a great (very busy) day together yesterday. We got home around
6:00, ate dinner, and at 7:00 my boyfriend asked me if I wanted to go
the that restaurant to see the singer. I didn't know what to say,
because part of the reason I like to go there, is to go with my
friends, and see this singer. My friends go every week, and I always
say no, and now they were going Monday or Tuesday, I would rather go
then. So I said, well my friends are probably going tomorrow, and it is
too bad that we would go tonight when they ask me every week to go with
them and I never do. So, he said, "I can't believe it, you always want
to go see her, and I suggest going there tonight just to make you
happy, and now you don't want to go? I don't get it.". I do like going
there, and it is not that I didn't want to go there with him, because I
did, but... I really can't explain it. So, I said okay, we can go
tonight if you want. I knew we would have fun, but I wanted to wait
until today and go with my friends instead. We ended up getting
affectionate, and when I looked at the clock it was 9:15. By the time
I got ready, and we drove there, it would have been at least 10:30. I
thought that was kind of late. I pointed out the time, and he said I
did it on purpose, I knew what time it was but I planned it so we
wouldn't go. Something was tugging inside me though all this. But then
we relaxed and started talking nicely again.
We had had such a great weekend together, I was sorry it had come to an
end. And I said, "Back to work tomorrow, sometimes I get so depressed
on Sunday nights". I was just sad the weekend was over. Then what he
said next, is how he acts sometimes that upsets me. He said kind of
rudely, "WHY would you be upset just because you have to go to work
tomorrow. Big deal. You only are there for 8 hours a day, that is only
1/3 of each day 5 days a week". When he said 8 hours a day, I just
added in that it was 9 hours. He got so mad. He said "Why did you have
to say 9 when I said 8?" I said because I am there from 8:00 to 5:00,
that is 9 hours. He said, so, why did you have to correct me?? I
couldn't quite understand what he was so upset about, and this happens
a lot. Maybe that is something I do that is bothersome. Anyway, he
started to say other things too, so I just got up and went in the other
room. I was going to wash my face. He came out and said, why do you act
like that. You say I have a problem and you are the one with a problem.
If I did that to you, would be mad at me. Anyway, I didn't want to get
in a fight, so I just gave in and made up quick. Maybe I do have a
problem too though. Maybe I shouldn't have got upset, but, even though
we got along good this morning, I am still upset.
My friend just called me and said they were planning on going to that
restaurant tonight, and I'd like to go. But, once again I feel as
though I can't just because he asked me to go last night and I didn't
go. He will say that I do everything my friend dictates to me, because
that is what he said before. He will be mad now because I want to go
when she asked me and not when he did. I wish he hadn't asked me to go
last night, but maybe he did it on purpose to put me in this position.
Or, maybe he really was trying to be nice and that is why he suggested
it. I told my friend that I would call her back and let her know. So,
not even a week later, I still kind of feel like I'm being controlled.
Maybe it is all in my head. Maybe I'm getting upset for nothing, and if
I call him now and tell him that I want to go he'll be nice about it. I
don't know how I let myself get into a "feeling guilty" if I do
situation again. Now I really do need advice and would like to hear
what any of you think of this. Is is me? It could be.
I love being with him when things are good, and that is why I am so
hesitant to leave. I want to be with him, but I want things to change.
Maybe that is impossible. But should I give up? I do have a place where
I could go now. My friend is looking for a roommate to move into her
house. It would be very low rent, no security deposit, I wouldn't have
to buy furniture, and I could even drive to work with her in the
morning until I got a new car. So, I do have an out, but do I want it?
I don't know. But deep down, my answer is no. I do love my boyfriend,
but then again, maybe that is not enough.
|
| 1312.44 | | AYRPLN::TAYLOR | D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. | Mon Oct 26 1992 13:23 | 45 |
| Anonymous ..
Maybe the solution is in your last paragraph. You have a way out,
maybe you should take it??
I'm not saying break up with your boyfriend completely... I understand
loving someone so much that you want to try anything to make it work.
What he is doing to you is WRONG. He should not be controling your
life like he is. Nobody has the right to control another adult's life
.. whether you're in a relationship, married, or whatever.
Maybe you should move in with your friend, but still see your boyfriend
from time to time. Don't make a "clean break". Just tell him that
things don't seem to be working between the two of you at the moment and
maybe you both need your space so that you two can work things out.
One, so that he can see what life is like without you and possibly
realize what he is doing to you, and the other is so that you can be
on your own again to remember what it's like not to be controlled.
Both of you need to look at this situation. He is DEFINITELY
manipulating you .. but you are allowing yourself to be manipulated.
Both are at fault.
I've been through this before .. and I got myself out of it. I was not
living with the man, but I saw him EVERY night after work and EVERY
weekend .. usually both days of the weekend. He would get mad at me if
I decided to do something with my mother instead of just being with him
at his place ... if I decided to something with my friends, he'd tell
me that I didn't love him because I wasn't going to be with him. It
got pretty rediculous that we'd get into a fight every time I wanted to
do something WITHOUT him. I finally realized that this is MY life .. I
need to control it, not him! I can do whatever I want to do .. I don't
have to answer to him, or anyone else.
You may want to consider moving in with your friend .. even if it is
just until the two of you sort things out .. but let me tell you, it
looks like he's got to do a LOT of changing before things can be right
again.
If you need to talk to someone who has gone through this (probably not
as intense as you are going through, but still ..) feel free to send
mail.
Holly
|
| 1312.45 | | SCHOOL::BOBBITT | up on the watershed... | Mon Oct 26 1992 13:28 | 24 |
|
it's a trap.
you should be free to do what you feel comfortable doing - there are
some things I would want to do with friends, not my boyfriend
necessarily. When he offers, you can't BE WITH YOUR FRIENDS AT THE
RESTAURANT EVEN IF THEY WERE THERE! You'd be too busy being with him,
am I right? He changes HOW YOU ARE when you're with him. It's not the
same. You can't relax. Always wondering what you should or shouldn't
say next. How to avoid the next argument or problem.
It's great when it's great, but when it's not, it's suddenly your
fault.
He can correct you, tell you what to do, complain about you, insult
you, and blame you - but you cannot correct a NUMBER?
He tells you what to feel, when to feel upset, when to come and go.
jesus h christ please get out -
-Jody
|
| 1312.46 | | KNGBUD::B_SIART | Say something that makes me think! | Mon Oct 26 1992 13:32 | 11 |
|
I couldn't have said it any better. I agree with Jody,
get out now!
-B
|
| 1312.47 | get out now | DELNI::STHILAIRE | Food, Shelter & Diamonds | Mon Oct 26 1992 13:36 | 20 |
| re .44, is right in everything she says. It is appalling the way he is
controlling your life. You are an adult, and should be able to go out
on a weeknight with your friends when you feel like it. In your .43,
you commented that he had said that you could go out tonight. Why
should he be in position to say whether you can or cannot do something?
You are not a child, and he's not your father.
I am curious as to the age difference between you. You mentioned that
he is 50 yrs. old. I'm curious if you are much younger, and I wonder,
if you are, if this makes him feel that he has a right to tell you what
to do, more so than if you were his age. It's just a thought.
I, honestly, don't know how you can stand it. From where I am in now
in life nobody would be worth being bossed around that much. It really
isn't all that bad being single, and coming and going as you please, to
the extent you can afford to. It really beats constant fighting and
being bossed around by men with personality problems.
Lorna
|
| 1312.48 | | PIPPER::SHAMEL | We all live in a yellow subroutine | Mon Oct 26 1992 15:09 | 89 |
| Anon,
As I read through your entries one of the things that seems to keep
coming up is, you talk a lot about leaving him and I think to myself
"Great - She is getting out of a really unhealthy situation". Then by
the end of your entries you seem to be committed to working things out
with your boyfriend....again.
*sigh*
You claim to love each over very much..... BUT, from what you have
written I have doubts that the two of you love each other at all. I'd
say fear of being alone may be keeping you, and especially your
boyfriend, in this relationship. Men typically fear being alone much
more than women and your boyfriend seems to fall very strongly into this
category. I wouldn't be surprised if, in fact, that the core issue *is*
"fear of being alone" that gets translated into a feeling of "I can't
live without you" which is then being confused for "love". If the core
issue is fear of being alone, then it doesn't matter who the other
person is; The threat of you leaving the relationship will be a trigger
for him to show his 'love' for you. This fear is so strong that when it
really looked like you were going to leave, his fear/pain of being alone
came up and was *so* overwhelming that he felt compelled to DO ANYTHING
to avoid that pain. So he came to you willing to do whatever you ask to
keep you from leaving him. As soon as he feels secure in the
relationship again he will be back to his old ways - you can count on
it....
That's my straw horse theory from what I have read. If you want to shoot
flaming arrows into it, feel free....
You indicate you love him because he is handsome, strong, smart, and as
someone else pointed out, you put caring fourth on the list. Loving
someone because they are handsome or strong just doesn't make it for me
any more than a man who loves a woman because she is pretty, sexy, has a
great job or drives a fancy car. I do agree with recent replies that
physical attraction does play a key role the beginning and continues to
have some level of importance throughout a relationship but in the long
haul there are a lot more important things that come into play. My main
point is these things are all external, visible attributes that the
lover expects and hopes that others will see in the beloved. This
expectation/hope that others will find the beloved a wonderful person
"on sight" or with very casual contact is what frequently gives the
lover the feeling of really being worth something .... because they are
with this person that others find attractive. The fear of being alone
usually plays a role in this as mentioned above. This warm feeling one
gets by being with or thinking of the beloved is often thought of as
love by a lot of people. This isn't love.... it's fear that gets
manipulated into other feelings many people call love. The CORE feeling
of fear gets denied.... it's just to scary to deal with.
Anon, I wonder what your definition of love is.
I think M. Scott Peck nailed it in his book "The Road Less Traveled"
when he defined love as: "The will to extend one's self for the purpose
of nurturing one's own or another's spiritual growth".
Spiritual in this case does not have to do with religion but rather the
"spirit" (for some, this could mean the true self or inner child) that
resides within us.
I don't see any spiritual growth going on between the two of you.
However, when you do stand up for yourself, and tell him what you really
feel and think, you are loving yourself - which in turn is showing love
for him (OK, it probably sounds weird unless you have read the book).
Your argument about 8 vs 9 hour work days was predictable. The
two of you were very close over the weekend which felt nice.... for
a while. When two people are struggling with intimacy issues and
suddenly get real close for a few days it can feel good but it also
gets scary after a while. The fight served the purpose of putting
some distance back between the two of you again and there was probably
some relief on his part that he is not feeling emeshed with you now.
This cycle seems to be common in your relationship with him.
I suspect that he was willing to see the singer with you is an effort
to show you that he 'cares' about you. BUT, what he gets out of it is a
reason for you to NOT go with your friends on some other night. This
is NOT caring for you - he is setting you up for a future fight about
leaving him alone at home while you go out. Then, when you didn't go
(which I suspect was fine with him) he gets to blame you for fouling
up the plans. Sheesh, it was a win-win situation for him and a loose-
loose situation for you.
I hope everything works out well for you. If I were you, I'd move in
to that apartment with your friend...... but I am not you. Take care
of yourself... Please!
Rick
|
| 1312.49 | Later! | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Why not ask why? | Mon Oct 26 1992 15:46 | 18 |
|
That was a very nice reply - .48 by Mr Shamel. Listen to it.
Listen to what the others, like Jody said too.
I'm going to bow out of this conversation. I gave my "fifty-dollar"
reply a ways back - I feel it wasnt listened to, let alone aknowledged.
*Sigh*, yes I know. Manipulation comes in many forms and one
of them is the "no matter how many times it's explained, nor how
well; I'll still not understand what the hell it is anyone's talking
about" game. The "yeah-but" game. Yeah - but (another 100 lines...)
So, maybe it's better simply to be the space where what's necessary
to be learned occurs, than to try to be "the teacher"...
Goodbye, and Good Luck -
Joe
|
| 1312.50 | | XCUSME::HOGGE | I am the King of Nothing | Mon Oct 26 1992 16:11 | 77 |
| You say you have a gut feeling, it's simple, he's STILL controlling the
situation, instead of allowing you to go with your friends, he's going
to go with you. He sees: She wants to see the singer, I'll take her to
see the singer... that will take care of the situation.
You say: I need some time for myself. I need to spend some time with
my friends.
That's why he 'Doesn't get it'.
He isn't giving you any freedom in your relationship or showing any
trust. He's relenting to 'allowing you to see the singer... IN MY
COMPANY"
Not very trusting.
Now to Lorna, (I think) I start my relationshps off with something
OTHER then sexual attraction. I learned a LONG time ago that there
was a lot more to a relationship then SEX. So, i took the time to
become friends with a person first. Funny thing is, as you get to know
these 'ugly' people, learn how they see the world, feel about things,
share the same joys you have, something funny happens and they start to
physically look better.... until you 'see' something more then the rest
of the world does. You should re-evaluate your prioritys... because
you'll find it very difficult to have a long lasting relationship so
long as you let your eyes hold sway over what people are. The most
beautiful things are almost NEVER seen with the eyes. And look at it
this way, if you lost your sight tonight, how much would you care about
the guy you're with then? THAT'S 'HOW'.
Amazingly, when you lose your eyesight for a while, you not only
appreciate it when you get it back, but if you lose it long enough, you
start 'seeing' things a lot more clearly. Like the things that make us
more then just a flouncing ball of fluff.
I am by no means 'handsome' and there are some folks here who've meet
me that can attest to that. But, for everyone who can tell you how
'ugly' I am, I can introduce you to someone who can tell you how
'handsome' I am. Not because I'm good looking, but because I took the
time to care... learn about them, find out what they are inside. I
feel in love with my current girlfriend when I lived in California and
talked with her via notes. I had no indication of what she looked
like, save her description of "Fat, gross, three heads, blonde, big
feet and hands." Not very 'appealing' and if you discribed yourself to
some guys around here like that, so much for your chances of a
relationship. It didn't stop me from falling for her, for her mail
messages, V-phone conversations at night, telephone calls, cards,
letters, and such. I should have turned tail and run when she gave me
that description. Most guys would have, but I fell in love with the
'voice' in the letters and over the phone. When I finally met her,
she was absolutly beautiful, and although we've had our problems, I
could never see me leaving her. Instead we get 'fed up' with the
problems and sit down and discuss things, working them out.
She's actually beautiful in my eyes and others say she is beautiful as
well, that is a bonus that was tossed in, but for all that, I fell in
love with her long before I ever laid eyes on her, and it wouldn't have
mattered to me what she looked like, in fact my minds eye was of a
grossly overweight, hunchback, with arms that dragged the ground. It
wouldn't have mattered though, I was in love with the 'voice' the
'soul' of the person I'd talked with so much.
But I'm falling in on my own life now. As I said, you asked me "how"
my answer is simple, wear a blindfold a couple of weeks, and let
a stranger spend some time with you. Get to know them, share things
with them, do things with them. AND if you're lucky, and he manages to
reach inside and 'touch' something, when you take off the blind fold,
you won't give a rat's rearend about how he looks.
No, you probably wouldn't do that, so you'll probably figure I'm
'strange' and never understand it. I feel sorry for anyone like that,
because there is so much in people you'll never get to see, realize, or
understand. But then there are LOTS of people who let ther libido do
their thinking. Fortunatly not EVERYONE does.
Skip
|
| 1312.51 | | AYRPLN::TAYLOR | D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. | Mon Oct 26 1992 16:48 | 10 |
| VERY well put, Skip! I'm sorry, but I cannot stand people who put
looks and "physical attraction" before anything else!!
A perfect example of what you're talking about is in the movie "Mask",
where the the boy with "elephant's disease" has a blind girl who
loves him .. just because of the person he is.
Holly
|
| 1312.52 | | DELNI::STHILAIRE | Food, Shelter & Diamonds | Mon Oct 26 1992 17:05 | 53 |
| re .50, Skip, I have already had a long-term relationship, thank you.
I was once married for 12 1/2 yrs. :-)
Also, to hear you talk you would think that the only two choices
available in the world are (1) homely or plain people with wonderful
personalities and hearts of gold, or (2) good looking people with
lousy personalities, who are basically rotten to the core! :-)
Well, in my experience, there is fortunately, a third group!
Reasonably attractive looking people, with nice personalities, who are
also decent human beings. All three of my live-in relationships, so
far, have been with members of this third group, I'm pleased to say,
and as long as I'm able to continue to attract members of this group, I
won't have to force myself to overcome physical revulsion in order to
date people.
It almost seems to me that you didn't notice the part I wrote about
how I don't expect people to be drop dead gorgeous. The only thing
that matters is that *I* find them physically attractive, and I have
found some men attractive who definitely wouldn't have been everyone's
cup of tea.
Also, I actually have tried to have relationships with men that I
haven't been physically attracted to, and it's usually caused more
problems for both of us, than if I hadn't tried, because what happens
is that I wind-up considering the men to be my best friends, but have
no interest in having sex with them, and they wish I did.
As I said before, if there was no such thing as sex, it wouldn't matter
to me what my SO's looked like, but as long as people expect sex to be
a part of a couple relationship then it will.
And, another thing. I wouldn't want to have a couple relationship with
a man who didn't consider me to be attractive. I wouldn't want to have
a relationship with a man who said, "Gee, the first time I saw you
I thought you were a real dog, but after I got to know you, I fell in
love with your personality,and even though you are still pretty ugly
looking, I don't mind having sex with you, because you have such a good
personality." The heck with that!! I'd tell the guy to take a hike
because I want the man in my life to consider me attractive even if
nobody else does!
The thing is, I really think that if you really thought your girlfriend
was ugly, you wouldn't have given her a chance. I bet that she's just
not Cosmo cover material, but is a normal looking woman that you find
attractive anyway. Well, most of us - none of us - are cover material.
Most of us are average looking people that occasionally somebody finds
physically attractive and falls in love with. Of course, it isn't just
looks. It's a combination of looks and personality. But, it has to be
a combination of both. Just one or the other doesn't make it.
Lorna
|
| 1312.53 | hard-won lessons | BENONI::SWALKER | | Mon Oct 26 1992 18:50 | 71 |
| Anon,
Jody is right. It is most definitely a trap!
It's obvious that you really want this relationship to work, and
have been willing to put a lot of effort into making it work. I can
understand that you don't want to walk away from something you've
invested so much time and energy into while you still see the
potential. Nevertheless, he has said it several times: he believes
that *you*, not he, have a problem. Translation: he is *not* willing
to change! No matter what he says when you get ready to walk out!
To have a relationship that works, you need more than
compatibility, you need committment from both parties. You see
compatibility in this one, and so you've been trying to give it a
double dose of your own committment in hopes of matching the magic
formula. But it won't work. It will only make things worse for you.
I know; I've been there.
Your heart, obviously, is still committed. As long as you stay,
not much is likely to shake that, because in your heart you'll always
want it to work. (Which *doesn't* mean the relationship ever will,
because he has another agenda). The ability to make that sort of
committment will serve you well when you find someone that's willing
to reciprocate. But this guy is NOT. He wants you on his terms
*only* -- in other words, he wants a convenient companion. But he
does not want *YOU*. It is not *you* he loves per se, but the side
of you that is convenient to him. He is focused on himself, not
you (unless you are focused on him at the time). You are not
completely accepted in this relationship. In other words, he is
foreclosing on your identity. This is not love.
Ignore your heart for a minute, and take the out you have; such an
opportunity may never come again, and deep down, you know you're not
happy, too. And worse yet, you can't be yourself. This is obsessive,
unrequitted love, and you'll never make it into anything else alone.
You can't push a rope...
I know the heart vs. head conflict you're going through, and I
know how much you really want it to work. I also know, because I've
been down this road, that for it to *ever* work the way you want it
to, you *have* to leave him. It is only if he realizes, once you've
left, that he really valued you and wants you back, that he will have
enough reason to change into someone capable of a mutually respectful
relationship. Right now he doesn't have to.
Then again, in leaving, you run the risk of finding out that he
either really didn't value you, or did, but not enough to change his
ways. This hurts. A lot. However, in either case you will be
better off without him, and living with your friend should help.
You may love him, but if you also love yourself you need to consider
the price of this relationship in terms of your self-worth and
self-esteem. And I hope you won't say it is a small price to pay to
be with him. It is a *huge* price. More to the point, you shouldn't
have to pay it at all.
When I was going through similar emotions, a good friend of mine
pointed out that I could leave him, and go through the pain *once*,
or that I could stay, and keep going through the pain again and
again, every couple of weeks. That about sums it up. And yes, there
was still a lot of good in the relationship right up until I left.
I could easily have gone for another spin on the Tilt-a-Whirl (you
know, that ride where you're standing and spinning on a platform, and
suddenly the bottom drops out and you feel slightly sick...), but
something in me finally snapped, and realized that if I had to ask
whether to leave, it was only because I didn't want to know.
You cannot push a rope. You really, really, really cannot.
Sharon
|
| 1312.54 | at least get some distance for now! | GUESS::DOUCETTE | More Chuck for the buck! | Mon Oct 26 1992 19:16 | 76 |
| I strongly recommend that you consider moving out and in with your friend.
At least consider going away for the weekend with friends and/or family
(not your boyfriend) to get some distance from the situation. It may not
be a good time for your family to visit you; but, perhaps it is a good time
for you to visit them. If you can't even get away for a night, you certainly
may have difficulty escaping for a weekend or moving out; so, get some help
from a friend or family member as I did!
Last spring I was in a relationship that was falling apart. I was trying
to get my girlfriend to talk with me about problems that we were having.
She refused to talk with me and insisted on spending time with other friends
instead (some of whom had romantic appeal). One weekend in particular she left
me hanging as to whether she would spend any time with me at all. Whenever I did
see her she was busy doing other things and wouldn't give me her full attention.
I was only seeing her at her convenience under her terms. In short, I was
letting her control me.
I was very upset and was ready to break-up with her. After working out one
morning, I went over to her house intent on breaking up with her
but I wanted her to admit what was going on and to talk about it.
Nothing was resolved and I left in a huff. Since I was so upset and it
was raining out I got involved in a minor car accident.
I called her up and told her about it and said that I didn't "need" anything
but I could really use a hug. She said that if I needed to see her I could
stop by but right now she was in the middle of baking cookies.
In desperation, I called my brother. He sensed the urgency in my voice
and a) invited me to spend the weekend with him and his girlfriend and
b) offerred to drop everything he was doing and drive for a couple of
hours in both directions to come pick me up.
It was one of the nicest things that my brother has ever done for me.
He made me laugh. I could tell him about what was going on in my
relationship with this woman and he would validate all the things
I was feeling and doing and saying.
Meanwhile this woman who I was involved with was devastated that I would
"walk out on her". I said that I needed my distance whereas she was convinced
that I was just doing this to hurt her. I called her before I left just to
tell her where I was going (against my brothers advice). I didn't call her for
the rest of the weekend. Although I didn't want to leave her feeling that way,
I wanted to be confident and secure in my own feelings first.
After talking to my brother, his girlfriend, their roomate (also a friend
of the family), my sister and mother (both of whom I managed to see during
the weekend), I felt *so* much better. I felt in control. I felt powerful.
I felt confident. I had restored my self-esteem and a comfortable feeling
of independence. I wasn't just going to wait around to see what was going
to happen next (if my then girlfriend would make the time to talk to me),
I was going to do something - if only to get some distance and to be with
my friends and family who love me for myself and not for whom I'm involved with.
Obviously there advice was subjective; but, their view of the situation was
a lot more objective than mine and they wanted what was best for me.
Before the weekend was over I decided that it was time to end the relationship.
I just had to figure out when/how to break the news (I did it in person two days
after I got back).
I'm not here to judge your relationship, I'm here to tell you to get some
distance from it so you can view it more objectively (not with your boyfriend
or all by yourself). If you aren't sure you want to end it then use some
time and distance to be able to clearly think and talk over how you feel.
It certainly worked for me.
You don't deserve to feel uncomfortable with things you want to do or for being
yourself. Don't feel any shame for wanting to do something for yourself. You
can't live in the shadow of your boyfriend and/or just do things to please him.
Personal growth won't be achieved under those circumstances. If your boyfriend
truly loves you he will set you free to find your own happiness. You each must
*choose* to love (or not to love) each other - it can't be forced and still be
real.
I wish you the best of luck.
Chuck
|
| 1312.55 | | CSLALL::LSUNDELL | Of all the things I've lost____ | Mon Oct 26 1992 21:14 | 12 |
| After reading your last update hun....well, ever hear the ol' saying 1
step forward and two back??? It's simple...REAL simple. Stay with him
and you lose yourself. Do you think so little of the person within
you that you're ready to let someone else control you?? If he TRUELY
loves you and doens't want to lose you, then he'll do whatever it's
going to take to make the relationship work...if he doesn't then you
haven't lost a bloody thing.
You sound intelligent. Let you HEAD do your thinking - not your heart.
FWIW
|
| 1312.56 | From one who knows... ;-))) | CSLALL::LSUNDELL | Of all the things I've lost____ | Mon Oct 26 1992 21:16 | 4 |
| Oh yeah...I almost forgot. Skip darlin...you may not be "Playgirl"
centerfold material - but you're still one beautiful person sweetheart.
And I wouldn't say you're ugly either! ;-))
|
| 1312.57 | | LEZAH::QUIRIY | Like eskimos in Mogadishu | Tue Oct 27 1992 09:46 | 5 |
|
re: .53 What an intelligent note. (I've been there too, and you're
right on the money.)
Cq
|
| 1312.58 | he needs to let you have your feelings | HANNAH::OSMAN | see HANNAH::IGLOO$:[OSMAN]ERIC.VT240 | Tue Oct 27 1992 10:02 | 16 |
|
The thing that I really felt strongly about was this, which is my paraphrase:
I told him I hate Sundays because I have work the next day, and he
tried to ARGUE about why I shouldn't really hate Sundays.
He's got alot of growing up to do. When he can start to learn to let you
have your feelings and not argue you out of them, then the two of you have
a chance at a working relationship.
Lorna, thanks for your input about the great personality vs. good looking.
I'm wondering now though, if those live-in relationships were g.p. and g.l.,
why did they end ? And why did you have three ? Sounds like each one was
worth staying around for.
/Eric
|
| 1312.59 | Last try, I'm getting frustrated | MAYES::SKOWRONEK | | Tue Oct 27 1992 10:26 | 106 |
| Dear Anon,
I have been reading this note and the last one from the beginning. I
didn't want to reply because, you are constantly asking people for
advice, which they have been kind enough to give you, but you don't
listen. Sorry if I am being harsh, but you need to wake up!
You are in a loose-loose situation. I don't see any love here, I see a
prison sentence & *You* are the prisoner. The only difference is that
you have decided to stay, you are allowing this person to control your
life. Over and over in these notes, more than one person has
suggested to you to read "Women who love too much" --- and you haven't.
If you want answers, read the book!!! Your story is in there!!! I've
read it!!!
Let me ask you a few questions: Did you come from a dysfunctional
family?? Did your father or mother treat you the way your boyfriend is
treating you?? Do you see any patterns, like your current
relationship, in your previous relationships?? IF you answer yes to
these questions, then the book will help you. Then again, I think you
are in such a state of denial right now, that nothing we say or do is
going to help you ---- YOU HAVE TO HELP YOURSELF, WE CANNOT DO IT FOR
YOU!!
I have been, and so have alot of noters here, in a relationship very
similar to yours. I lived with a person that was so negative and down
on himself, that he had to make me feel that way. I was a prisoner in
my own home. I, too, could not go out with my friends without him
saying that I must not love him if I need to spend my time with other
people. If I did not come directly home afterwork, then I had hell to
pay, and had to answer all the questions (Where were you?? Were you
with some other guy??, etc). One time I wanted to go Christmas
shopping with one of my girlfriends, he literally stood at the door and
would not let me leave, then he stepped aside and said "Go ahead and
leave, but I am going to slice your tires so you cant" --- IT was
hell, BUT I GOT OUT!!! I can't even explain the freedom I felt after
leaving. YEs, it was very hard to leave, because I felt like I had to
take care of him --- I felt very guilty. All I really wanted was a
trial separation, just some time alone to think, but he had the same
attitude as your boyfriend -- "If you leave, it's over", well I did, it
was over and it was the best thing I ever did in my life *Just for ME*.
The situation you are in is not a healthy relationship --- I don't see
love there -- I see wanting, I see needing, I see codependency, I see
fear of abadonement, I see fear of being alone --- I don't see love.
If your boyfriends really loved you, he would do anything to make the
relationship last, including letting you go for a while to figure
things out --- THAT IS LOVE, THAT IS TRUST --- you cannot have a
healthy relationship with out trust and communication, you both have
neither. You may think you do, but it is one sided (its coming from
your side) --- in a healthy relationship, it is two sided.
I also see him using you as a maid --- Why the *ell can't he cook for
himself when he is hungry, instead of saying to you "I hope you cooked
something, cause I am hungry" --- I would say "Get off your lazy butt
and make yourself something, I am *NOT* your slave" --- Abraham Lincoln
abolished slavery along time ago. Another question --- Has he ever
cooked a dinner for you?? With no strings attached?? Just because he
loved and cared for you??
I am also very curious as to the age difference involved here. From
what you have written, we know he is 50, but I assume that you are in
your late twenties/early thirties. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Are you planning on marrying someday?? Having children?? Do you thing
you would be happy married to this man?? If things are bad now, just
imagine what they would be like once you are legally bound to him. If
he is jealous about the amount of time you spend with your friends,
what about when children are involved?? Don't you think he would
become jealouse of the kids??? You also mentioned that he has grown
children, from which I assume he was previously married --- Why did
that marriage fail --- Could it be for the same reasons that your
relationship is failing?? I also assume, that since he has grown
children, he probably does not want anymore --- Is he keeping you from
your dream of having children??
You may be thinking "I can change him, I can get him to change" ---
*YOU* can't !!! And you won't be able to do anything to help him until
*HE* realizes that *He has a problem*. Then *HE* will have to make
changes for himself. IT has been said over and over again "NO *YOU*
don't have a problem", the only fault you have is thinking that you
love this slug --- Do you know what real love is?? Well, you won't
find it in this relationship, but I can guarantee that someday you will
find it, but with someone else, someone who will let you be you, and
let you have a life.
Talk to the married people in your department. The ones who have been
married for over 10 years and are still happy. They will tell you that
they lead their own life, have their own interests, along with sharing
their life with their partner. You can't be so absorbed with one
another and not have any outside interests --- your relationship with
suffer and die, it needs air to breath.
I hope you listen this last time, but like a few other noters, I'm
through with this string. We can only give you advice, it is what you
do with that advice that is going to help you --- YOU have to help
yourself. Unfortunately, I don't think you will do anything but stay
in this extremely unhealthy relationship --- I pray that someday your
eyes will open.
Debby
P.S. I agree, Skip is a beautiful person and that makes him much more
attractive than Mel Gibson --- and I haven't even met Skip
face-to-face, just through these notesfiles.
|
| 1312.60 | to answer Eric... | DELNI::STHILAIRE | Food, Shelter & Diamonds | Tue Oct 27 1992 11:13 | 47 |
| re .58, Eric, you want to know why my 3 live-in relationships ended?
:-)
Okay. :-)
1. Marriage. I was married for 12 1/2 yrs. That's a long time and a
lot can happen in 12 yrs. It was great for the first 7. Then, started
to go down hill. For the record, my ex has a good personality (except
for one thing - a problem temper), and he was very cute when I met him.
We basically grew apart, changed in different ways as we got older, and
had less in common as the years went by. We had been 21 & 24 when we
first met. Now we're 43 and 46. :-) My biggest complaint about him
was his problem temper. We also grew apart, got into a rut, the thrill
was gone, etc, and it bothered me more than it did him. Eventually we
drifted so far apart that I fell in love with someone else, and left.
However, my ex and I have been divorced for 7 yrs. and are still good
friends.
2. The guy I fell in love with and left my husband for, left me for
another woman 2 1/2 yrs. down the road. I had thought at the time that
he was worth staying around for, but he didn't. Nothing I could do
about it, but cut my losses and move on. It was painful, but I got
over it, and now realize that he was an irresponsible drug addict.
Oh, and he had a very appealing personality but looked like he should
have been a member of The Greatful Dead. I found this appealing.
Others might not. ;^)
3. My most recent relationship, the guy didn't have a good
personality, but I found him attractive. As a matter of fact, the
gentleman .0 is involved with reminds me of my most recent live-in
relationship. He wanted a female appendage in his life, and, much like
Sharon described never really was able to accept *me* as individual
human being. The whole time I was living with him (2 1/2 yrs.), I was
also seeing a guy, on the side, whose personality I absolutely adored,
and still do, but who I didn't find physically attractive. This guy
and I are still friends and will most likely drive each other crazy
before we're done. I wish I could put them in a big pot and stir them
up in order to make the right man! Combined they make a nice
boyfriend. But, each alone has something missing. *sigh*
Oh, well, nobody ever said it would be easy. But, at least I feel
lucky that I'm currently single and not involved in an obsessive
relationship like .0 is. I've been there, too, and glad to be out!!!
Lorna
|
| 1312.61 | | XCUSME::HOGGE | I am the King of Nothing | Tue Oct 27 1992 11:27 | 50 |
| re.52
To hear you talk, from your comment, you base your relationships on
physical attraction first and primary, worrying about other things
later. I DON'T base my attraction to a person on physcial attraction.
And as I stated if they ARE physcially attractive it's a bonus.. NOT
a prerequiset for me to meet them or contemplate weather they are
worth the effort to form a relationship with. As I said, lose your
eyes. Then form a relationship with someone. You'd be surprised
at the quality of it. Simply because you set aside the need for the
physical attration.
I don't condemn you because you place it as a priority. Anymore then
I condem anyone who prefers blondes over red-heads. I appreciate
peoples physical attractiveness.... however, it isn't the first thing
I go looking for when I look at someone. The first thing I notice in
a person is if they are having a good time with the people around them.
THAT can tell you a lot more about a person then their nice smile or
cute butt.
It works for me, but hey, I've only been in my current relationship for
three years, with no major problems.
ANd if you want the REAL truth of the matter, I've always pittied the
'good looking' people because most of the people who take the trouble
to get to know them, are attracted to them simply because of that fact,
they're 'good looking'. It's not just you, it's our society that
causes this. Everything from the T.V. shows we watch, to the Magazine
articles we read hipe out that we should be concerned with the 'RIGHT'
look.
I was fortunate in that my folks didn't raise me to think that way,
enficious was on the inner being instead of the skin. My parents
weren't 'good looking' my mother had a glass eye that bluged slightly
and stared consistently. My father however is considered to be (so
I'm told) handsome. (He is 6'2 240 lbs of muscle curly dark hair and
hazel eyes) he was completely devoted to my mother because in his
words, "Of all the women I'd ever met or dated, she was the only one
who wanted to know about me, my interests, likes, and dislikes."
So being rasied by parents like that, what can I say? Sorry you find
physical appearances so important, there's a whole wide world of people
out there with things to offer if you could take the importance of that
down a notch or too on your list of priorities.
You see, the way you told it, there are two types of people in the
world, those who are pretty enough for you to associate with, and the
rest of us 'ugly' folk who aren't 'worthy' of your attention.
Skip
|
| 1312.62 | read a little more carefully, please | DELNI::STHILAIRE | Food, Shelter & Diamonds | Tue Oct 27 1992 11:39 | 11 |
| re .61, Skip, you are reading what you want to read in my replies. Not
what is there. When did I ever say that I put looks as *the* priority in
relationships? For your information, I do not place looks as the No. 1
priority. What I said is that it has to be a combination of both in
order to work. I have to *both* like the person's personality, AND
find them physically attractive. I want both, and I don't care whether
you condemn me for it or not since, thankfully, I don't have to live to
please you.
Lorna
|
| 1312.63 | not very pleasant | DELNI::STHILAIRE | Food, Shelter & Diamonds | Tue Oct 27 1992 11:41 | 7 |
| re .61, also, for your information, I have, on more than one occasion,
"lost my eyes" and tried to form relationships with men based soley on
their personality, and what I wound up with was physically unappealing
men constantly nagging me to have sex with them!!!
Lorna
|
| 1312.64 | | DELNI::STHILAIRE | Food, Shelter & Diamonds | Tue Oct 27 1992 11:48 | 27 |
| re .61, there are only two types of people in the world for me, when it
comes to sex and romantic relationships. When it comes to just being
friends with people, I don't give a hoot what my friends look like.
I've had plenty of overweight, unattractive friends! :-) (sorry..a
joke..couldn't resist!)
You think that just because I don't want to have a relationship with
somebody, that that means I don't want to bother with them????!!!
That's ridiculous, I consider friendship to be extremely important and
I don't care what my friends look like. I only care what people look
like when it comes to having sex with them!! And, even then my taste
is not necessarily all that conventional. I was madly in love with my
second live-in relationship and he was anything but conventionally
handsome. He was, however, very interesting. (Like I said, he looked
like he belonged in a rock group, like The Greatful Dead. I like that
look, long hair, moutache, etc.) To give you an example, I'd rather
date Chris Robinson, of The Black Crowes than Mel Gibson anyday! Chris
looks hot, IMO.
And, hell, I'm only average looking myself, so I know that no Tom
Cruise lookalike is going to give me the time of day. All I'm saying
is that in order to fall romantically in love with someone, I have to
find them physically attractive, IN Addition, to liking them as a
person.
Lorna
|
| 1312.65 | | AYRPLN::TAYLOR | D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. | Tue Oct 27 1992 13:23 | 5 |
| Excuse me people, but what does this have to do with the topic?? How
about moving this to it's own topic?
Holly
|
| 1312.66 | how it started | DELNI::STHILAIRE | Food, Shelter & Diamonds | Tue Oct 27 1992 13:29 | 10 |
| re .65, this conversation began when .0 said that one of the reasons
she was attracted to her SO was because he is handsome. Someone
commented negatively on this, saying that looks should not be a
criteria in selecting an SO. I replied saying that I think physical
attraction is an important part of an SO relationship. Skip then began
haranguing me about how erroneous this is, and I was simply replying to
him again.
Lorna
|
| 1312.67 | | AYRPLN::TAYLOR | D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. | Tue Oct 27 1992 13:45 | 14 |
| RE: .66
I understand where this conversation originated, but it seems to have
strayed from the original topic. This topic is not about physical
attraction vs. mental attraction. It's about this woman who apparently
is being used and kept prisoner in her own home.
What I'm saying is if you two feel that strongly about it, why don't
you start another topic instead of cluttering up this one??
Just MHO.
Holly
|
| 1312.68 | Please start new base note with this - | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Why not ask why? | Tue Oct 27 1992 15:00 | 9 |
|
I agree, with "moderator hat on". I find this aside is taking some
of the "impact" away from responses I see carefully directed to the
base noter about her main issue.
I think "physical attraction vs. mental attraction" would make an
interesting base note / string. Please start one.
Joe
|
| 1312.69 | Mods Move to a New Note If Necessary | XCUSME::HOGGE | I am the King of Nothing | Tue Oct 27 1992 15:35 | 71 |
| Actually, if you want to get technical, my comments were 'aimed' at
Zarlinga... not you. But you took up the argument, and it's a subject
that has always BUGGED me.
You see, a few years ago, I dated a girl who was blind. She was
wonderful, a great listener, had the most marvalous stories to tell
about a mountain lion she helped to raise while living in the
mountains, intelligent, bright, insightful, and simply put a wonderful
person to know. Only thing was, although I found her beautiful in a
lot of ways, the rest of the world would have found her 'ugly' and in
fact on more then one instance, she was made well aware of it. It
hurt her, she had decided through some strange method of her own, that
I was 'handsome' yeah, well, she coudn't see and relied on her hands
to see physical beauty. It didn't matter though, I loved her alot,
and she loved me as well, that is until she got it in her head that
she was too unsightly to be seen with someone like me. Thanks in part
to several folks making commments who didn't stop to THINK that a blind
girl's hearing is more acute then a sighted one's is.
I tried to reassure her that the comments weren't meant for her, she
insisted they were, I tried to convince her that I wasn't handsome,
she insisted I was, I tried to convince her that it didn't matter at
all, she insisted it did. I went to the house she lived in (the area
had a program whereby blind people were 'coupled' with sighted
roomates) and was informed that she'd decided she was better off going
back to her parents house in the mountains instead of 'associating'
with me. Her roommate had thought that *I* had made the comments
orginally, and I had to explain different. However, she'd promised not
to give the address to me and therefore, I was left.. high and dry...
by her, a few days later her roommate called me to inform me that she'd
had an accident and was killed. No details but she'd get back to me
she never did. I didn't bother to go back and learn anymore.
None of it would have happened if 'physical appearence' weren't so
important to people. There's no such thing as 'ugly' or even 'plain'
there's just peope you have to get to know before you can see anything
'pretty, handsome, or beautiful' in.
Lastly, there ARE people in the world who don't give a damn about
physical attraction or apparences in folks when it comes to a
relationship and some of us don't bother with the term 'sexual
attraction' because we want something a lot MORE then self
gratification through sexual encounters. Sex is great, don't
misunderstand.... but it's empty and hollow feeling when it's done
with someone simply to 'get off' and nothing else.
ANd there are qualities that people who count on 'physcial apparences'
will never learn about because they're too busy being concerned with
looks.
It's not a priority you say, but in the same breath you say it has to
be there for a sexual incounter/relationship.... Xcusme? wanna try
that one by me again? IF it ISN'T a priority then why MUST it be there?
Lastly, from your notes, you leave me to think that 'unphysically
appealing folks are okay to associat with, but I wound't dear be caught
in bed with one.... yeah well. I'm not ashamed of who I associate with
in a relationship when it comes to physcial 'looks' and from what you
say of your last two relationships, maybe you should stop and look
at more then just physical appearances. You see, the point of what
I'm saying isn't that YOU LORNA are WRONG... it's that Society in
general IS WRONG, especially in the way we choose our parterners,
because I'm sorely aware that most of US as human beings with a
few exceptions put too much on physical apparances.... and regardless
what anyone says, it's wrong.
Sorry Mods, if this needs to be moved please do so, I don't mean to
'rat-hole' from the base note, it's a 'pet peeve' that I get upset over
easily.
|
| 1312.70 | | XCUSME::HOGGE | I am the King of Nothing | Tue Oct 27 1992 15:36 | 6 |
| Joe,
I'll start one, could you PLEASE move the appropriate notes to it,
And then, delete this?
Skip
|
| 1312.71 | no Holly, you got it wrong | HANNAH::OSMAN | see HANNAH::IGLOO$:[OSMAN]ERIC.VT240 | Tue Oct 27 1992 15:39 | 23 |
|
No, Holly, it's not about "this person being kept prisoner in her own home".
It's about this person *choosing* to remain. Please understand, I can
empathize why it would be *hard* to leave someone, even if they abuse
you. It's *scary* to leave a relationship.
However, I do think it's important to remember that this person isn't being
held prisoner by the other person. She *chooses* to keep coming back for more.
As for Lorna, she did the natural thing. When one person is sharing about
their personal life, it's natural for many of us to feel touched in the ways
in which the person's sharing connects with our own life.
Let's not "sterilize" this conversation. I can agree with not cluttering
it too much with debates such as "how do looks and personality weigh in
a relationship", but for a useful healing conversation, other people besides
the "base noter" must feel welcome to introduce aspects of their own lives
that are touched by the original sharing.
By the way Lorna, I appreciate your honesty in your response to my question.
/Eric
|
| 1312.72 | Any Boundaries in Notes!!! | AKOCOA::LORENSON | | Fri Nov 06 1992 16:08 | 33 |
| Joe,
Your response in note 1312.49 made me very angry.
What makes you feel you should get an "acknowledgement"?
How do you "know" your "$50 response wasn't listened to" by anyone reading
let alone the original noter? And your insinuating remark around "manipulation"
in your third paragraph was way out of line in my estimation. You have no right
to make a judgement that she is being manipulative just because she doesn't
see the light or should I say YOUR LIGHT.
Maybe you've got some major stuff to learn about boundaries if you want to play
act at being the "teacher"...or did you mean "therapist" Joe?
I think if you are going to respond to a note where someone is dealing
with very difficult personal feelings, you don't lambast them with your
attitiude of...Hey YOU, didn't you listen to me, Hey you, you're taking too
long to process this difficult situation that your in... therefore you are
a manipulative ungrateful "student" and I dismiss you.
If you can't respond to someone who has asked for input to a
painful episode in their life without compassion, then...
what is your intention in responding?
I just have to say it one more time.. you're wayyyyyyyyy out of line.
And your sarcasm in reply 1312.23 (is this the $50 reply) helps nobody.
How would you really feel if I ended this note with
Good Bye and Good Luck.
Tricia
|
| 1312.73 | A wish and a prayer | AKOCOA::LORENSON | | Fri Nov 06 1992 16:52 | 22 |
| To the orinator of this note:
I sure hope that your situation is getting better, whatever you
decide for the moment.. for the day.. is the clearest you can be
for that time. Be gentle with yourself when you're confused by
love...you're putting alot of energy and self examination to
find happiness in this relationship...give yourself some credit for
this (you're not denying that problems exist)...don't allow yourself or
anyone else to confuse your feelings anymore than they already are..
Just because you don't have the perfect immediate solution to make
this all a thing of the past....doesn't mean "there's something
wrong with you"...try not to second guess yourself too much...
you know you're being as honest with yourself as any of us can be with
ourselves...Keep reaching out for understanding from yourself, from
others...for yourself..for others..
Alot of people say they can relate to your situation, they have been
there, that should tell you alot.
Wishing on a star for you, for me, and for all those striving in
difficult times in relationship with the ones that we love.
|
| 1312.74 | | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Why not ask why? | Mon Nov 09 1992 11:44 | 64 |
|
Re .72, Tricia,
>Your response in note 1312.49 made me very angry.
I'm sorry to hear that something I wrote made you angry. Though I will
admit, I'm suprised to read how a note I've written could *make* you, or
anyone else, feel any particular way.
>What makes you feel you should get an "acknowledgement"?
Simply because I've bothered to make the effort to reply. I've noticed
that no one, including you, bothered to acknowledge the "I feel" statement I
made in my 1312.49 note.
>How do you "know" your "$50 response wasn't listened to" by anyone reading
Actually, I dont for sure - it just seems that way to me. Jody
apparently listened to something I'd suggested in an earlier string and I
didnt know that, until this string.
>You have no right to make a judgement that she is being manipulative...
I dont? According to whose rules? Yours? If so, who gave *you* the
right to tell me what my rights are?
>Maybe you've got some major stuff to learn about boundaries if you want to...
Teach me, then.
>If you can't respond to someone who has asked for input to a
>painful episode in their life without compassion, then...
Slow down, I'm listening.
>what is your intention in responding?
My intention in responding here is to acknowledge that fact that you
said I made you angry. To your credit for actually bothering to say how you
feel in here. I suspect that my intentions in responding to other material
entered by other people is none of your business...
>I just have to say it one more time.. you're wayyyyyyyyy out of line.
A judgement according to your own personal criteria.
>And your sarcasm in reply 1312.23 (is this the $50 reply) helps nobody.
Also, a judgement according to your own personal criteria. I'm curious
that you would enter a reply - in anger - over my making judgements of someone
else (which in itself is "according to you") while at the same time making
judgements of me? Are you anymore in line here than I was there, according to
your own criteria?
>How would you really feel if I ended this note with Good Bye and Good Luck.
It could have some initial emotional impact, in the context of "this
note". Maybe even prod me for an angry relpy. (In the long run, I dont think
it'd bother me) That, however, was not my intention for ending .49 in that
way. Basically, the ending was to suggest that the basenoter could leave the
man she's involved with in much the same way as I chose to leave the ongoing
conversation in this string.
Joe
|
| 1312.75 | | AYRPLN::TAYLOR | D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. | Mon Nov 09 1992 13:50 | 5 |
| Has anyone heard from the basenoter at all?? I'm kind of concerned for
her and curious as to what she's decided to do.
Holly
|
| 1312.76 | | VMSSPT::NICHOLS | conferences are like apple barrels | Mon Nov 09 1992 17:03 | 9 |
| It is sometimes the case that "I feel" kinds of statements are
incorrectly interpreted as attacks. It is sometimes the case that
"I feel" kinds of statements are correctly interpreted as attacks.
(e.g., used to mask direct criticism or antagonism or hostility ...).
I feel that .49 was one of the second kind of "I feelies". (and a
pretty clumsy one at that).
herb
|
| 1312.77 | | SAILR3::HANAM | tie your flowers to the cemetary gate | Tue Nov 10 1992 07:59 | 10 |
|
for whatever its worth....
*i* feel .49 was justified. the author has taken the time to enter
several detailed replies to the base noter's requests for guidance
(isn't that what this is all about?)... and she has consistently
written the same thing, week after week... a shopping list of
grievances followed by excuses for her live-in's actions.
i think i read a few other replies back there giving up on this one..
|
| 1312.78 | | XCUSME::HOGGE | I am the King of Nothing | Tue Nov 10 1992 09:32 | 22 |
| Joe,
For what it's worth, I may not go along with your advice or opinion,
however, you had as much right to answer in your manner as I did in
mine. And one of the things about HR is that with the various types
of advice that get submitted, one method sometimes works better then
another. Sometimes a 'slap in the face' works better then 'a
sympathetic ear' and 'gental advice'. I don't think it's as important
for us to judge each other (I hold no malice for Lorna and her views,
I'm curious about them so I go off and make a comment that results in
me learning a different way to look at things, I may not have taken the
best method for doing this, but I do get results.) as it is to express
our solutions, alternatives, and if we reach the end of our rope, our
way of 'slapping the face'.
Who knows, maybe subconsciously your 'washing your hands' has done as
much good for the person, as the other suggestions have.
That's my opinion on it, and I'm sticking to it.
Skip
|
| 1312.79 | | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Why not ask why? | Tue Nov 10 1992 09:43 | 29 |
|
Re .76 - herb,
I'm curious - Assuming you personally subscribe to what you've
written - why would you even hold someone's "I feel" statement
in the context of "an attack" as far as its interpretation goes?
Sounds like a slightly defensive and controlling posture to me...
Kinda like "Someone's expressed a feeling - red alert, battle
stations! Oh - attack interpretation *incorrect* - yellow alert
at ease, phew... Now, what was it you felt again?"
Gosh, if you're always wondering if someone's expressed feelings
are an attack, or how much of an attack they really are, how in your
thinking would you ever get to -
- That their expressed feelings simply "are". Neither attack nor
surrender, right or wrong, good or bad, etc.
- Having some mercy toward the expressed feeling *whatever it
is*.
Hey, maybe I'm just "outta line" with this observation... I
offer it nonetheless.
Re .77, .78, Skip - Thanks.
Joe
|
| 1312.80 | | VMSSG::NICHOLS | conferences are like apple barrels | Tue Nov 10 1992 09:48 | 6 |
| <- why would you even hold someone's "I feel" statement in the context
<of "an attack" as far as its interpretation goes? Sounds like a
<slightly defensive and controlling posture to me...
Do you mean "why would you ever"?
|
| 1312.81 | | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Why not ask why? | Thu Nov 12 1992 08:29 | 5 |
|
I believe I meant "even". "Ever" is too exclusive a term; as
if there'd *never* be a possible circumstance where this might be done.
Joe
|
| 1312.82 | | VMSSPT::NICHOLS | conferences are like apple barrels | Thu Nov 12 1992 09:33 | 10 |
|
<I'm curious - Assuming you personally subscribe to what you've
<written - why would you even hold someone's "I feel" statement
<in the context of "an attack" as far as its interpretation goes?
Since you did intend "even" I do not understand the question you are
asking.
Would I be losing much if anything in translation if I respond to the
question 'why would you interpret someone's "I feel" statement as an
attack?'
|
| 1312.83 | | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Why not ask why? | Thu Nov 12 1992 10:24 | 4 |
|
I dont think so; I'd be interested to hear your response.
Joe
|
| 1312.84 | I'll answer with a hypothetical dialogue | VMSSPT::NICHOLS | conferences are like apple barrels | Thu Nov 12 1992 10:31 | 28 |
| if you were to say to me
"You are a jerk"
I would consider it a personal attack.
I would not feel _much_ differently about it at all if you were to say
"I feel you are a jerk". And feel I am on pretty firm ground in saying that
it is an intent to say something about ME (but 'disguising' it in "I feel"
terms.).
I would feel a tad-more differently about it if instead you were to
say "That's a jerky thing to say"
I would feel several-tads-more differently about it if you were to say
"I feel like that's a jerky thing to say"
I would feel _quite_ differently if you were to say something like ...
"Please understand that I do not mean this as an attack, but when
somebody says something like '...' I tend to react by feeling that the
person is a jerk. Now I haven't particularly felt that way about you in
the past so I would like a better understanding of just what you had in
mind, so I can have a clearer understanding of whether I might benefit from
some introspection as to what in my past might have conditioned me to be
thinking that such language bespeaks a jerky mindset."
Don't you think?
|
| 1312.85 | | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Why not ask why? | Thu Nov 12 1992 12:27 | 24 |
|
Herb,
Referring to your allegation that the "I feel" statement in my
.49 was one of the "second kind", i.e. correctly interpreted as
an attack:
The examples you just gave of "attacking" I feel statements had
"I feel" in the context of a judgement, such as; "you're a jerk"
I said in .49; "I feel that what I've written wasnt listened to or
acknowledged". Where is the personally-attacking judgement in this
statement? There isnt even a "you"! How could it be construed as an
attack, when it merely indicated what I felt the facts were in the
matter at that time;
- that I wasnt listend to.
- that I wasnt acknowledged.
All "I" statements; all well within the "I" context - and quite
"healthy" I might add, as far as that goes.
Joe
|
| 1312.86 | | VMSSPT::NICHOLS | conferences are like apple barrels | Thu Nov 12 1992 13:20 | 26 |
| re .74
"manipulative" is a pretty attacking word. (don't you think?). By the
way in .74 you said
<...I've noticed that no one, including you, bothered to acknowledge
<the "I feel" statement I made in my 1312.49 note.
There was no "I feel" in the paragraph that contains "manipulative"
Between that and your pouting about her not responding to your
badgering to read Women Who Love Too Much in
1278.52 and again in
1278.67 and again in
1278.106 & again in
1312.7
I don't give a crap whether you feel you were attacking her or not.
I feel you were and several others obviously felt you were. Indeed,
they even defended your right to attack her.
And if you want to nitpick about the definition of "attack", find
somebody else, thankyou.
herb
|
| 1312.87 | re .86 | VMSSPT::NICHOLS | conferences are like apple barrels | Thu Nov 12 1992 13:30 | 11 |
| I think there are a lot of people who feel that this discussion has
gone on too long and maybe even are just as piqued as you.
My hunch is that most of them simply stopped participating. I think
there must be a goodly number of more productive ways of stopping such
a discussion (including the above) than acusing somebody of being
manipulative or badgering somebody for not taking your advice.
Imagine that! She really is an UNGRATEFUL clod, eh?
|
| 1312.88 | | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Why not ask why? | Thu Nov 12 1992 15:23 | 40 |
| re .86 -
>"manipulative" is a pretty attacking word. (don't you think?). By the
No, I dont think so - not in the way I used it in .49. If you read
what I said, it was something about manipulations taking many forms
and I delineated what one of them was, which was pertinant. There
was no "you ares", no explicitly stated targets of my supposed "attack".
>Between that and your pouting about her not responding to your
>badgering to read Women Who Love Too Much in
Oh, searching the conference for supporting evidence of "me badgering"
which *is*, BTW, an explicit and personalized accusation on your part...
>I don't give a crap whether you feel you were attacking her or not.
Thanks for the sentiments...
>And if you want to nitpick about the definition of "attack", find
>somebody else, thankyou.
That's fine by me.
re .87
>there must be a goodly number of more productive ways of stopping such
>a discussion (including the above) than acusing somebody of being
>manipulative or badgering somebody for not taking your advice.
Hey, if you're going to contextually associate my words in .49 with
the basenoter, perhaps due to their *accuracy* in light of obvious
facts in this string, well, that's not my doing. *I* never said
"basenoter", "her" or "you" - go back and look for it. There's a
difference between throwing named acusations at someone, and leaving
something around for someone to "get" - if they happen to pick up on
it. Even if they do, the "getting it" is their realization, not
my determination.
Joe
|
| 1312.89 | | SCHOOL::BOBBITT | up on the watershed... | Thu Nov 12 1992 15:46 | 30 |
|
I think Joe has really been right on target in most of his statements
here, and I laud him for expressing them so forthrightly. He obviously
is not able to take action in this case, it's not his life, but in
putting forth his concerns, and his suggestions, as powerfully as
possible, I feel he has succeeded. Using "I" statements expresses his
coaching and advice as coming from him - how the basenoter got it, or
whether she acted on it, is not under his control, nor should it be
(hence the use of "I", not "you must" or anything).
Women Who Love Too Much is a remarkable book, and it transformed my
life and how I look at my own relationships. If Joe speaks powerfully,
it is out of his feelings and concern - out of his seeing something the
basenoter may not see. Herb, if you feel uncomfortable, I'm sorry -
but sometimes powerfully phrased notes make more of a difference than
quiet ones - and when you feel someone's quality of life, or life
itself, are on the line, as may be said of this topic, sometimes you
step outside what's considered comfortable, into the realm of the
unreasonable.
I know that may well be striving to help the basenoter feel more
comfortable, and to ensure she feels accepted and supported by the
advice here - but accepting/supportive advice isn't always what works
best. Who knows which advice ws followed - the basenoter will follow
her heart, and having listened here may act in some way she wouldn't
have otherwise, or not. We all want her to be okay and happy, in a
satisfying relationship......that I want to make clear.
-Jody
|
| 1312.90 | | XCUSME::HOGGE | I am the King of Nothing | Thu Nov 12 1992 16:30 | 38 |
| RE.89
That's the best way of putting it yet. I never thought or saw any
'attack' in Joe's notes (I even went back and re-read them) what I
saw was personal opinion and recommendations offered up. Some of
it offered more in a 'clinical' type of statement but NOT by any means
in an 'attack' of the basenoter. There's no attack in saying (in
effect) "I've made several suggestions which you've choosen to ignore,
I wash my hands of the matter from here on." How can this be seen as
an 'attack' ? More like giving up in disgust. After all, you can only
hit a nail so many times with a hammer then you start to split the
board, and damage the wood.
I've not read the book, but then there are LOTS of books that I havn't
read. Some of them may do me some personal good and when someone
suggests one that may have a positive affect on my outlook or
situation... whose lose is it to NOT read it?
No, as I said, I may not agree with Joe's comments, but he as a right
to make them. And as Jody pointed out, if Joe weren't concerned in
some way about the base noter, then I'm sure there'd be no point in
commenting on the matter. Further, if he felt his advice were not
worth something to the situation, why would he bother? OTherwise, he
would be making comments in each and every note string in here.
Nope I'm sorry but after having read and re-read the comments made
I see no 'attack' on the basenoter, just a personal opinion and some
strong suggestions offered.
The only 'attack' I've seen thus far is the comments made directly
at Joe in trying to make him (what ARE you trying to make him do?
Apologize? Humble himself before the rest of us? Or claim he was
wrong in his suggestions? was he? not hardly, he just presented them
in a different approach then others of us.)
Skip
|
| 1312.91 | | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Why not ask why? | Fri Nov 13 1992 08:21 | 15 |
|
Thanks, Jody, Skip.
On the advice of my wife, I'm going to bow out here. I'm doing
so with an understanding that I've given an appropriate amount of
time and attention to the concerns of others about my contributions
to this string - I've been convinced that to give any more, would
be going well into the realm of "inappropriate".
If there's anything that I'd like to make pointed as I go, it's
that *I* didnt just disappear or suddenly become silent as a means of
ending the discussion. I'll also show some restraint here and now
and withold my honest opinion of that particular method.
Joe
|
| 1312.92 | | VMSSG::NICHOLS | conferences are like apple barrels | Fri Nov 13 1992 12:02 | 45 |
| It is very common for people who grow up in emotionally abusive homes to
involve themself with emotionally abusive mates. These relationships
often produce emotionally abusive boy childs and girl childs. The
boys grow into men who abuse others, the girls grow into women who find
others to abuse them. (There is a sick kind of symmetry there)
There are lots and lots of writings and studies that suggest that a
(hesitate to say THE) key issue is a lack of self-esteem. I believe .0
was abused in some fashion in her home. I believe, dear base noter,
that if you look at your past honestly you will find lots of
treatment, lots and lots of dysfunctional dynamics in your home that
support what I'll bet is a gut level INSISTENCE that you don't deserve
any better treatment than you keep going back to get. That it is better
to be half-loved than loved not at all. I think it is a pretty good bet
that your father and mother have/had a symbiotically abusive
relationship.
I think you have a serious problem, I think you need professional help.
I think you need something more extensive and intensive than one or two
visits to EAP.
It is very frustrating to try to help and be not listened to. I'm sure
that the writings in .49 are to some extent an expression of that
frustration. Until, and unless, you take the overwhelming advice in
these two discussions seriously and get some help, my opinion is that
you are wasting the time and good will of the people in this
conference. I think more and more people are likely to be expressing
their frustration and/or pique at hearing yet another tale in this
saga.
That is one observation and the dominant set of feelings I have.
Please read the following concluding paragraph as a graphic way of
communicating how strong an impact this discussion is having on ME.
This paragraph is not an accusation it is just a reflection of the
intensity of my feelings.
The other set of feelings I have are prompted by the observation that I
cannot recall seeing a public display that is such a classic
portrait of a self-abusive woman. It is so classic that sometimes I
have a niggling suspicion that it may be a caricature. It is so
classic that when I am not feeling sorry for this woman, I am haunted
by the gnawing anxiety that this is a giant hoax being perpetrated on
this conference by somebody with a very sick sense of humor.
herb
|
| 1312.93 | only one can prevent this | FORTSC::ORNELAS | Jaime Ornelas | Fri Nov 13 1992 19:09 | 37 |
| > The other set of feelings I have are prompted by the observation that I
> cannot recall seeing a public display that is such a classic
> portrait of a self-abusive woman. It is so classic that sometimes I
> have a niggling suspicion that it may be a caricature. It is so
> classic that when I am not feeling sorry for this woman, I am haunted
> by the gnawing anxiety that this is a giant hoax being perpetrated on
> this conference by somebody with a very sick sense of humor.
I suspect the reasoning here is the personal desire to reject the level
of damage the basenoter is undergoing at her own hand...we are all
prone to want to STOP an accident when we see it happening...but, WE
cannot. The only person who can avoid the disaster that is surely
comming her way is the basenoter....she isn't able, or willing perhaps,
to see how unbalanced, unfair, and UNSAFE this relationship is. Perhaps
the fear of being alone overwhelms the reality of the danger she is in.
In any case, only the basenoter can choose to avoid the damage, stop
the escalation of danger to her physical and emotional well-being.
So, basenoter, I say only this....you are in danger. Real, serious
and possibly, life-threatening danger. If you stay long enough in
this relationship, this man may choose to kill you rather than let
you go...it often happens. You read about it in the paper, you
see it on TV and you think, "how can this happen?"...well, now you
may be learning exactly how it can begin.
I join the chorus saying, "get out and get safe. NOW" Get help from
a qualified counselor who can help you see what this relationship is.
If you choose to stay, you may end up, as someone I now very well,
hiding, looking over your shoulder, fearing he will find you...if
you manage to get away at all.
Maybe this man isn't dangerous...but, I'd bet my salary that he is
going to be if you wait long enough.
This isn't love. Love doesn't hurt. Love doesn't make you feel
small and ugly and alone and incompetent. Go find out what love
is...and go find it.
|
| 1312.94 | | VMSSPT::NICHOLS | It ain't easy bein' green | Wed Nov 25 1992 11:45 | 18 |
| re .89 (et al)
I think that the statements in .92 reflect the feelings of many of the
people in the conference. I _think_ they aren't too far afield of the
feelings of Joe Jasniewski. I _think_ that if Joe had felt able to
honestly express similar clear powerful non-hurtful opinions publicly
it would not have been necessary for the nastigram that I feel .49 is.
A nastigram that I think was triggered by the frustration that he felt
as a result of walking on eggs to avoid hurting anon (or at least to
avoid being held responsible for that hurt). 49 contained
negativeness and hostility (manipulativeness, and sour grapes) that was
more hurtful AND less accurate than he COULD have been and (I think)
SHOULD have been. He was loath to go away before saying something, but
he didn't say what I think he really wanted to say and it came out
wrong. 92 was forthright, 49 was hostile.
herb
|
| 1312.95 | I hate stories without an ending | SMAUG::GARROD | From VMS -> NT; Unix a mere page from history | Sat Jan 23 1993 23:02 | 4 |
| I just came by to catch the next episode of the story but no notes
since November. I hope everything worked out OK.
Dave
|