Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    insecure?
    
    There's nothing wrong with a woman having male friends  (or Vice
    Versa) although I'm sure you'll hear rumours.  If she's attractive,
    then she's going to attract (funny how that works huh?)  You can 
    ask her not to socialize with these bar bums, or enjoy the fact that 
    she is with you, not them.  
    
    But you have me wondering what the relationship is with you, and the 
    situtuation that promts such questions.
    
    
    Skip

>    Is there something wrong with a divorced female having a lot of male
>    friends?? 
    
    There's nothing wrong with _any_ woman having a lot of male friends. 
    And there's nothing wrong with a man having a lot of female friends. 
    Friends is friends. 
    
>    What "type" of female has a lot of male friends ??
    
    Personable "females".
    
>    They all speak highly of her. 
    
    She sounds like a very nice person.
    
>    Also, she is very attractive and personable. 
    
    Well, there you go.
    
    Ray

    
    I'm not divorced but 80% of my friends are male.  My personality
    attracts men because I am a very "up" person.  I dress nice (most of
    the time), I carry myself well and my laugh attracts people.   I know
    a large majority of men where I live.  I can go almost any place and
    usually end up knowing someone.   I hear nothing but nice things about
    myself from others, most of the men that I am friends with will come to
    be with a problem long before they will go to anyone else.  I guess
    that I too am personable...The "type" of person that she is...I warm,
    caring, real person.  She is very much like me.
    
    I date a man for a while that could not handle the fact that I knew so
    many men, that I hugged and talked with so many men.  He cringed
    everytime someone touched me.  The big reason behind our break-up.  He
    wanted me to change...stop "Flirting" as he called it.  I can't...nor
    should I feel that I have too...I'm harmless though.  If I am with you
    then I am with you....

    re .3, I don't imagine your former jealous boyfriend would find your
    current personal name overly reassuring either!  :-)
    
    I think it's difficult for more reticent, or conservative people to
    really understand how someone can be *so* friendly with *so* many
    people, and still have it remain innocent.  I think it's more of a
    conflict in the way different personalities view the world than
    anything else.
    
    Lorna
    

    Hmmm well, I have to admit that I like to consider myself one of
    ::LOBOV's friends (Hiya LinDarlin!) and from my end of it, I've found
    her to be friendly in a 'non-flirtatious' way.  Although I admit she 
    is attractive, she has the type of personality that makes you aware 
    of where you stand when you meet here without insulting you.  
    
    She IS warm, sensitive and friendly and those are important qualities 
    in anyone.  I wouldn't be dating my own girlfriend if I didn't sense 
    those qualities in her.  
    
    As for myself, I think I have as many female friends as I do male ones,
    my girlfriend doesn't feel threatened when I give them a hug, or kiss
    them on the cheek, or occasionally on the mouth.  She KNOWS I'm in love
    with her, I go with her, I arrive with her, and I leave with her.  I'll
    tease these gals about everything and anything, but I'd no more go home
    with one of them then I would stand naked in the middle of the highway 
    during rush hour.  (Hmmm although, lets see, party naked, stand naked 
    in the middle of the highway.... HEY LINDA!!!!!!!  8^}.
    
    Meanwhile I flirt outragously and she knows that that is also part of
    my personality.  She is secure in the knowledge that I love her and 
    I am secure in the knowlege that she loves me, I'm not threatened by 
    any males she flirts with, and vice versa... it all comes down to 
    security in the relationship.  If you KNOW she loves you, then it 
    doesn't matter HOW many male friends she has, because you KNOW where 
    they stand compared to where you stand with her.  
    
    Thus my question 'Insecure?'
    
    Skip 

    Re: .4	Thanks for mentioning the personal name Lorna, I was
    		trying to think of a good comment that wouldn't get me
    		in trouble. I'm SURE it's not too difficult to find 
    		friendly people while wearing a sign like that... :-)
    
    	
    	 "Insecurity" sounds like a key word here but not knowing either
    	person, that seems like a hasting diagnosis. I can easily see how
    	excessive "friendliness" could be construed as flirting. As
    	mentioned before, "who is she actually with??". I suspect that if
    	can not resolve this question, this situation will eat at you for
    	as long as the relationship exists...
    
    
    	Glenn

    
    I have many male friends.  In fact, for many years, I primarily sought
    male friends because I was more comfortable with them.  I went to
    primarily male schools (70%-90% male) for about 10 years.  It has been
    difficult to explain this to past boyfriends sometimes - they could not
    understand how I could be just *friends* with men, the same way that
    they, themselves were just *friends* with men.
    
    
    -Jody
    

    
    
    re -1
    
    I think you've hit on a very important part of this issue.
    I have many more male friends than female friends partly 
    because of my upbringing and partly because of my profession.
    I am in a male dominated profession and it's very rare to
    work with another female.  Also, I tend to get along better
    with men than women.  I hate the petty jealousy some women
    are famous for.  
    
    I also think that the men who are uncomfortable with me having
    many male friends do not have female friends.  Most men I know
    only have female friends as SO's.  If they have never got to
    know a woman only as a friend, then how could we expect them
    to understand the other way around?  If the only type of
    relationship they have had with women has been of the love
    type and not of the friendship type, then it makes sense that
    they don't understand how a man could be friends with a woman.
    
    This woman in .0 is probably just a very personable type of
    a woman who men feel comfortable around.  Nothing wrong with
    that.  Also, I think this society is far to concerned with
    open displays of affection.  In my circle, we always give a
    hug and a kiss to our friends.  This could take place in
    a home or could take place in the supermarket.  Nothing wrong
    with a good hug from a friend.  Makes folks feel good and there
    doesn't have to be anything behind it other than an affirmation
    that you are a valued friend.

    
    re -.1
    
    i think you hit the nail on the head with your comment about so's
    who can't understand opposite-sex friends having never having had
    one...only understanding love-relations..
    
    i've always had alot of women friends. that's been happening since i
    was really young... and it was never a problem until i got older and
    starting dating. for so long every women i'd go with would have a
    problem with my doing _anything_ with another women. it really
    bothered me; i felt completely untrusted. jealousy is an ugly thing 
    and has killed too many relationships. 
    
    that said.. it's a tough thing to watch your special someone dance or
    get close to another. they laugh and smile; the little voice in your
    head says something terrible. maybe the best way to get rid of jealousy
    is to have it cost you someone dear.. next time you learn to control
    that emotion. 
                                

    I still say it's a matter of security, or insecurity.
    
    If two people are secure in their relationship, then it doesn't matter
    how many friends the other person has of the opposite sex.  Jealousy
    has no foothold, (another affect of insecurity in the relationship)
    and the fear of 'losing' the other person doesn't exist.  
    
    In other words, if you're secure in your relationship, the outside 
    influences of other people have nothing to effect.  You trust each
    other and it's okay for the other person to have friends regardless 
    if they are male or female.  When everything else fails, the security 
    that the other one is 'your SO' can carry over and through even when 
    things look the worst.  AND with that security cames the lack of fear 
    to discuss it when things DO look bad so you can clear things up.
    
    Skip

    re .10, why isn't it possible for someone to feel secure, and to know
    that their SO loves them, and wants to be with them, but they still
    don't want to see their SO hugging and kissing a bunch of other people? 
    
    I'm just suggesting that I think this scenario is possible.
    
    For years I've had as many male friends as female friends, but I'm not
    a huggy/kissy type of person, so all I do is talk to my friends. 
    Intellectually, I realize that a lot of other people do hug and kiss
    all their platonic friends, but since it's something I usually only do
    with my SO, or my daughter, if I were to hug and kiss another guy, it
    would at least mean I found him quite attractive.  So, my first
    reaction might be to think that others feel the same way, even though
    on further thought, I realize that's not necessarily the case.
    
    Maybe the guy in .0 just doesn't like to see his girlfriend hug and
    kiss other men.  The way I see it, she has a right to kiss who she
    wants, but he has a right not to like it, too.
    
    Lorna
    

    You're confusing two things here...
    
    Your personal feelings about hugging and kissing
    
    And the personal feelings of (IF you were the base noter) your partner.
    
    The fact that he might not like it, that's fine, so long as he states 
    it.  She explains it's only done as a sign of freindship... 
    
    If he's secure there's no problem... he thinks 'Oh, she doesn't want 
    to take off and head home with this guy'  
    
    Or he thinks 'Yeah right, hogwash!'
    
    If your SO goes up and hugs a woman and gives her a quick kiss on the 
    cheek, and you ask him about it, he tells you they are old friends, 
    she saved his dog's life when he was 

    Why do you think I'm confusing things?  I don't think I'm *confusing*
    anything.  I fully realize that I am not the basenoter.  I was only
    saying that it may be more difficult for people who only hug and kiss
    their SO's and kids to understand that other people do hug and kiss all
    their friends, and that it's no big deal.  That's all.  Not confusing
    anything.  Just saying that if I feel that way, other's might, too.
    
    The other comment I was making was that I think it's possible for
    someone to be secure in a relationship, and still not like to see their
    SO hug or kiss other people.  I disagree with you that it always means
    the person is insecure.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    um, the basenoter was discussing how the female has lots of friends -
    she attracts men when not accompanied by a man.  Almost all of the men
    in town (that's a lot!) apparently know this woman, and they all speak
    highly of her.
    
    I don't see any mention of hugging and kissing - or have we broadened
    this topic beyond the basenote?
    
    -Jody
    

    Good point -Jody
    
    and Lorna, I apologize, I didn't mean to upset (if I did so) you by 
    stating you were confused.... I said that I felt you were 
    confusing two different things....
    
    If you don't like being hugged and kissed
    
    He doesn't like seeing you hug and kiss.
    
    Two vastely different areas.  But let me ask you a question, 
    
    If you are secure (You not liking to hug and kiss) in a realtionship 
    with your S.O.  And he does enjoying hugging and/or kissing his female 
    friends with you knowing that it is a token of friendship and nothing 
    more.  Does it bother you?   
    
    From my point of view, it not only shouldn't, but even if you ARE the 
    SO in his relationship, you shouldn't have too much to say one way or 
    the other about it... UNLESS you are insecure in that relationship.
    
    THEN it's going to bother you, othewise, it's not going to matter to 
    you at all because you KNOW it's nothing more then a token of
    friendship.
    
    Again, don't confusing a the kissing and hugging... I find that kissing 
    a friend is along the same lines of kissing my sister.... NOT kissing 
    my SO.  
    
    Also there are things you do with your hands when you hug your SO that 
    you DON'T do with a friend.  
    
    In other words, if the body language agrees with the spoken facts....
    
    Skip

    I am the basenoter. I read elsewhere that single people looking for
    a life partner ( in this case girlfriend) (could go either way) 
    should be cautios of women with a lot of male friends. The note
    suggested that there was something wrong with these women. I wanted
    to get peoples opions about this. Also, I have a friend (really) who is
    recently divorced and "dating" again. He asked me about his new
    girlfriend who has been divorced for ten years and has all kinds of
    male friends. At a bar, if he leaves her to go the bathroom, there will
    be several men at her side when he returns. I think she is a flirt
    that enjoys the attention. No, she is not hugging and kissing all of
    these men., Apperently, she has been fussy over the years and has
    not been involved with these men. Just casually dating I guess.
    

    
    I have a novel question.  Can your friend *discuss this* with his
    girlfriend?  Ask her how she feels about these men friends - ask her
    what she is getting from these flirtations - and together they can
    discern whether or not it's a comfortable situation - and if it's not
    they can discuss what, if anything, they should do about it?
    
    -Jody
    

    re .15, Skip, we seem to have a *very* difficult time communicating. 
    It seems to me that everything I write, you misunderstand, and then
    accuse me of misunderstanding.  *sigh*
    
    First off, I was imagining the person who doesn't like to hug and kiss,
    as *being* the person who was uncomfortable watching the hugging and
    kissing (regardless of the sex).  The idea was that if a person is not
    used to hugging and kissing they may have a difficult time realizing
    that their SO may be used to hugging and kissing their friends.  It was
    just a thought that I was putting forth as a reason why someone might
    have a difficult time getting used to their SO doing a lot of hugging
    and kissing - not an excuse, a reason.  
    
    It also annoys me that whenever a person is uncomfortable with the fact
    that someone they're dating either has a lot of friends of the opposite
    sex (I'm assuming a het couple here), or hugs & kisses friends of the
    opposite sex a lot - it annoys me that when a person is uncomfortable
    with this, people seem to always say that it's that person's fault for
    being "insecure."  Does it ever occur to people that the person may
    have a reason to feel insecure with that particular relationship? 
    Maybe they have reason to believe that this person is capable of
    cheating on them?  And, I don't believe that the answer is just that
    then they shouldn't be in the relationship, if they can't trust the
    person.  Because life isn't always that simple.  For one thing, some
    people have learned, over time, not to trust *anybody.*  And, for
    another thing, they may be in love with the person, even if they can't
    trust them, and they may not know anyone else they would rather date,
    who is available to date.
    
    Skip, I'm just saying that I disagree with you that it's so cut and
    dried that nobody should ever mind having their SO hug and kiss tons of
    other people.  The fact is a lot of people screw around behind the
    scenes, and people know it.  And, I'm sick of hearing people condemned
    for being insecure. What does that mean anyway?  So what someone is
    insecure?  Oh, my God, take him out and shoot him - he's INSECURE!!  It
    makes me want to puke.  As though, being insecure is a reason to
    invalidate a person's every feeling.  In my opinion in this screwed up
    world, with people so often treating each other like shit, and acting
    in such a self-serving manner, I don't blame anyone for feeling
    insecure, and don't think it invalidates their feelings.  So someone is
    insecure?  So, what?  It's not an answer.  It doesn't resolve anything.
    
    Meanwhile, SKip, I don't think we're on the same wavelength, but don't
    worry about it.  It doesn't bother me.
    
    Sorry, Jody, this has been a digression from the base topic.  It
    happens a lot in notes.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    Thanks for the clarification, Lorna.
    
    And for what it's worth, I'm kinda "insecure" myself - if an
    SO/boyfriend wants to hug or kiss women in greeting (and I assume
    they'll ensure it's appropriate within the definition of our
    relationship - no tongues!), that's *acceptable* I guess.  But my
    preference is they only hug in greeting when I'm within
    eyeshot/earshot.  It makes me uncomfortable to see someone I love kiss
    someone else.  
    
    Insecure, oversensitive, insert-your-label-here!
    
    -Jody
    

    Jody 
    
    Gotta apologize again, but....
    
    
    Nothing is wrong in being insecure in a relationship.  Provided the
    person realizes that the feelings are due to thier insecurity and not 
    NOT the fault of the other person.  (Which is WHY it's bad to be
    insecure, most people don't realize it's THEIR problem not the problem
    of the person making them feel insecure.)
    
    The way the base note was presented, that seems to be the problem here,
    a case of insecurity in the relationship and looking to put the blame
    on the actions of the other person rather then looking at himself 
    and realizing that HE has a problem.  
    
    But, rather then keeping this going and reaching the point where we are
    'beating a dead dog'.  Let's leave it at agreeing to disagree (to some 
    extent) due to partially to misunderstanding and partially due to the 
    inability to see it from each other's point of view.  (After all we
    can't all agree on everything can we?)
    
    No hard feelings (I hope).
    
    Skip

    Okay...I'm female, and I'm also divorced.  My ratio of friends is more
    male than female...I don't know why.  It's not as if I'm looking for
    male friends.  Also - regarding a few back (sorry sweets, I don't
    remember your name), a comment was made about "flirtations"....I don't
    recall reading anything in the base note regarding flirting.  I've been
    told that I'm an attractive female...sometimes men approach me when I
    DON'T want them to.  As long as the female in question has a
    friendship, and friendship only, with a man - given that she's already
    in another relationship...then there's absolutely nothing wrong with
    that.
    
    As far as hugs and kisses go...well...the Skip-meister and I became
    friends through notes and mail...the first time I met him face to face
    I gave him a hug and a kiss....right Skipper?  ;-)  
    
    So...dear basenoter...if you're asking is there something wrong with a
    "divorced woman" (why do I want to cringe when I hear the
    classification? ;-)) having male friends...no.  And - if you're the
    male in question that went to the men's room - you don't like her
    having innocent male friends...careful sweetheart...push that one too
    far and she may just tell you to take a hike.  My "X" was jealous...I
    didn't appreciate it in the least...and I still don't - ESPECIALLY if
    it's from someone I'm only dating.
    
    FWIW, and IMHO ofcourse.  ;-)
    
    Lynne
    

Hi Lynne,

Something sounds very hard in that reply.  I'm not sure what it is.

You say you have more male friends than female "and you don't know why".

I've had more female friends than male in the past, and I'm starting to
learn why.  In my case, although all those females were "just friends", there
was always sexual undertones.  I don't whether you experience any of that
with your male friends.

For me, I've recently realized that all those boys back in junior high school
that bullied me, that threatened to beat me up after school, that snapped
towels at me during fizz ed, etc., I was angry at them !  This anger is new.
I used to only be in touch with the fear.

When I started dating, girls were nice to me.  So now I'm starting to realize,
it's not just that I'm het and hence attracted to women.  And it's not just
that I've got an addiction to women.  It's that in my life women have treated
me alot nicer than men have.  Well, certainly in those tender junior
high school years that's true.

In adult years, men have treated me fine, but I think the scars of the early
years have taken their toll.

Not a permanent toll though.  I've had realizations through a "men and yoga"
course I recently took at Kripalu, where I confronted a bit my resistance
to opening up to men.  I mean, I walked into the room on the first day of
the course, and realized, there are no women here, there's no one for me to
feel attracted to.

Perhaps what sounded cold to me, Lynne, was that it didn't seem like you had
any idea *why* a man might feel insecure if his women is paying attention
to other men.  You seem more focused your own annoyance that he is feeling
insecure about it.

Thanks for listening.

/Eric

    No Eric - you missed my point.  What I get irritated at is when a man
    is insecure because other men are paying attention to me when I'm NOT
    looking for it.  When someone is flirting it's pretty obvious - when
    I'm not flirting, or asking for attention, then I don't expect the
    gentleman I'm with to get all up set because other men are attracted to
    me.  
    
    Also - when I said I had more male friends than female and I didn't
    know why, guess I didn't make that too clear....I don't actively seek
    MALE friends...it's just worked out that way.
    
    Comprende?
    

    re .22, .23, well, I guess there's exceptions to everything, Eric.  :-)
    
    Lorna
    
    

    Re >> The first time the Skip meister and I met... (etc. etc.)
    
    
    Yeap... and I enjoyed it too!
    
    Lynne and I have been good friends for a while now, I can't see myself 
    NOT giving her a hug and kiss when we meet.  
    
    As far as why she has more male friends then female, I wouldn't began
    to hazard a guess.  
    
    She fun to talk with, we share some simular interests, there is enough 
    diversity between us to give each other different views on things, and
    we can talk openly to each other without worrying about who will find 
    out what we've said.  
    
    In short, we're friends, nothing more nor less, and I wouldn't have it 
    any other way.
    
    Hugs Lynne.
    
    Skip

    I was discussing this topic with my other half...
    
    he reckoned that if you didn't at least recognise that your SO was
    hugging/kissing friends of the opposite sex then you were probably
    taking them for granted...
    
    He's not at all jealous and I have loads of male friends - but he says
    he sees the greeting, does a 'double take', and forget it - cos he
    knows they are only friends and trusts me implicitly.
    
    I even flirt a lot cos that's the way I am and so does he...
    
    When he flirts with his friends/friends girlfriends I do the same thing
    - it does cross my mind and is just as quickly dismissed...
    
    
    If it didn't bother me at all I think that would be strange... no?
    
    
    Xtine

    I'll give you that Xtine.
    
    The key words however are that you both quickly dismiss it... because 
    you're both secure in the relationship.
    
    Yes?
    
    Skip

    What if someone isn't secure in the relationship?  What do you suggest?
    
    Has anybody ever felt secure in a relationship, and then found out the
    person was cheating on them?  It's a real hoot.  You should try to
    experience it sometime.
    
    Lorna
    

    Speaking from personal experience - if the person isn't secure in a
    relationship - then that person should take a good look at themself.
    When it comes right down to it - I have to be happy with me before I
    can do anything about sharing another person's life.
    
    And yeah Lorna...I was there...
    

    BTW - thanks Skip.
    
    ;-))
    

    Well, you deal with the pain, and get over it.  You see, I've 
    been there, it takes a while afterwards to trust the next person,
    but with time, faith, and a little communication, you eventually 
    do.  
    
    Skip

.28

Yes,

I've done the feel secure, get cheated on, feel insecure next time, tell yourself
it's unfair on the new person and talk yourself into trusting them/let them 
talk you into trusting them, then have them cheat on you ... Do that 
loop a couple of times and it becomes very very hard to feel completely 
happy with some of the stuff described.  ....especially if you've been told
in the past your lack of trust in an SOs relationship with a 'friend' is your 
insecurity and then found they were at it like rabbits the whole time behind 
your back when he was busy telling you it was your hang-up and 
misinterpretation.


Add to that a dose of some jerk telling
you you're not as good as the ex/the friend he can talk to at parties etc etc
and you can end up feeling pretty lousy about simple things like people 
really enjoying the company of someone of the opposite sex (even when you 
know you're good company too and you're busy chatting to your ex) it's just 
drilled in fear of pain I guess


However even after layers of the stuff you can still trust someone 
if you both nuture it.

If the person's a decent caring human being who wants the relationship 
with you in the same way as you do with them there's a good chance you 
can gently explain some of your feelings being careful not to blame or 
draw similarities.....

I've had a load of trash dumped on me from other peoples behaviours in 
the past (yeah I know I *let* them do it - not enough self-esteem back then) 
and courtesy of some of it I feel nervy enough and scared about my partners 
female friends and exs even though I know when I think about it there's not 
a problem.

Then again when you *think* about things there seldom is, it's more than 
a thought or belief when the feelings of fear start up :-)

Like someone earlier said if you can avoid blame then it's not like a 
problem it's just part of your make-up, who you are... and we're all changing 
all the time - a little or a lot and you can learn to grow out of damaging 
effects of insecurity.... with a little care and encouragement...