Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    This person's asking you to give up your possessions one by one, has
    failed, so far, to give what he promised in exchange, doesn't appear to
    be giving you any emotional support, and reacts with anger if you take
    a little time out to talk to a friend? 

    Be worried. Be very worried.

    Do NOT lose contact with your friends. You can tell him that if he
    won't talk to you about the situation, you've got to talk it over with
    somebody, but don't let yourself be isolated. 

    Even if the picture in .0 is gloomier than the actual situation, I'd
    say you need to take some hard looks at things. Maybe he's had some
    financial problems that he's afraid to talk about, or maybe he was
    misleading people all along; either way,  he may think everyone will
    lose regard for him if he admits the truth now. And, once in such a
    pattern, he could easily start to get testy and insecure. But you can't
    fix that by going along with what he wants, and you'll just put
    yourself in an even more uncomfortable position.
    
    It's very easy for someone not involved in the situation to hand out
    advice, especially advice like "Run, don't walk, to the nearest exit."
    If you think the relationship's worth saving, tell him you do care, but
    that you've got to talk - and with a counselor, since so far he doesn't
    seem to be hearing what you're trying to say.
    
    And please, do keep talking to people. Your friends, your family - make
    new friends. Anyone who tries to prevent that is seriously bad news.
    
    Good luck.
    
    -b

    re:.0
    
    Sounds like a terribly imbalanced relationship you've got there.
    
    They don't usually last very long, unless both people like it that way.

    Wish I knew at least your first name...anyway, whoever you are,
    concerning the relationship you described...END IT IMMEDIATELY!!!
    Maybe you might want to accept the new position and leave him behind,
    unless you'd also end up leaving all your FRIENDS behind.  (yes I meant
    to imply that this guy is certainly no friend of yours!)  You're in a
    bad situation from what I can tell from JUST reading ONLY what is
    written in .0.  You're going to get hurt eventually no matter what you
    do.  GET OUT NOW AND SAVE YOURSELF MORE MISERY LATER!!!!
    
    -Chris, who's tired of watching his friends hurt themselves, in spite
     of good advice they've received from me and others...
    
    p.s:  If this guy won't let you talk to your friends, it's obvious that
          you CAN talk to people through E-MAIL.  You can send me a note
          anytime...
    

    
    I agree with Chris, get out!!  Sounds like he is trying to get you to
    rid yourself of all your possessions-car, house, job, friends-so that
    you will basically have no choice but to go and be with him and depend
    on only him.  Sounds like he may be a bit scared because you're
    questioning him and showing him you do have a mind of your own.  
    Talk to him.  If he does try to twist things around and make you feel
    "guilty", he's up to something.  Don't you leave with him, you're much
    better than he is and better off with out him.
    
    Good luck, and remember you are your own person.  Take care and keep us
    informed.
    
    
    -raquel
    
    
    

    This "relationship" sounds pretty one way.  And there are signs that
    it's becoming increasingly one way.  So yes, you have cause to worry.
    
    Don't give up ANYTHING that is important to you--your house, your car,
    your job, your friends.  And especially don't give them up in
    anticipation of something that hasn't materialized yet.
    
    Even if the relationship takes off and becomes mutually supporting, YOU
    SHOULDN'T HAVE TO LOSE YOURSELF IN THE PROCESS.  No matter how good the
    guy looks.  No matter how many promises he makes.  No matter how much
    he says he loves you.  No matter how much you say you love him.  
    
    Only you can decide if it's time to run, not walk, to the nearest exit. 
    But I'd certainly advise you to take a good look at how much of
    yourself you're willing to give up in the meantime.
    
    Karen

    
    I too, think there is cause for concern here.  If I understand what
    you're saying then I think you're probably questioning your every
    emotion right now.  Especially since whenever you bring up issues
    with this person, he invalidates your feelings.  Lets play out a
    worst-case senario.  Lets say, for arguments sake, that he's right
    and the only problems with the relationship are in your own mind.
    In the interest in helping you through "your problem" shouldn't he act
    a bit differently?  Shouldn't he want to hear your concerns and deal
    with each one of them instead of making you feel worse and thus
    exacerbating the problem?  Perhaps he's not helping you out because
    he is simply incapable of doing that. (as opposed to thinking that he
    is purposely adding to your concerns.)  Even if he is incapable of
    delving into himself a bit in order to aid a friend, then that is a
    large fault.
    
    On the other side, lets say that there are some really big problems
    here and he's just not willing to deal with them.  (This is the more
    likely scenario in my opinion.)  His unwillingness to deal with issues
    head on is causing you problems and you've basically told him that. 
    This means that there is a rather heavy price attached to him not
    helping you and he STILL won't discuss things without belittling you.
    This is a trait that I would not want in anyone closer than a casual
    aquaintance, much less a lover/mate.  If you feel the same way, then
    buy yourself a car adn get back to being yourself.
    
    EAP - employee assistance program may be able to help you.  They
    have counselors which come to DEC sites and listen to your concerns.
    They are confidential and it may make you feel better to discuss this
    stuff in person with someone.  You can also meet people for lunch to
    talk about things.  Please feel free to send me mail if you'd like to.
    
    Rachael
    

    I just read over my base note.  Most of the time, we really do have  a
    good relationship, we get along good, love each other, and I'm  very
    happy.  I smile just thinking about him.  But, what I wrote  about is
    the problems in the relationship, and they seem to be  overwhelming me
    now since I can't seem to shake this feeling in my stomach.  
    
    Last night after work, I had to go the the pharmacy, and I decided  to
    stop by my Aunts house since she lives in that area.  I was a  little
    worried that he would get upset, but I really wanted to talk to
    someone.  I called him and left a message on his machine. 
    
    When I got home, he said that he needed the truck tomorrow (for today). 
    and I would have to take another car.  I said, "OH good, I can take the
    red car".  He said, no, I'll pull the old ford out of the garage for
    you to drive.  That would have been okay, but the point is, he had
    originally told me that if I sold my car, I could drive his red  car. 
    So, finally I decided to speak up.  I said you don't trust me do you. 
    You told me I could drive that car and it has been two months and you
    still never let me drive it.  You won't even let me drive it for one
    day when you need the truck.  He said I couldn't drive it because the
    windshield wipers don't work all the time.  I said it is not  going to
    rain.  Rain is not predicted today.  He said I told you the reason why
    and that's it.  He said, I did let you drive that car once.  He had got
    drunk at a party and I had to drive him home.  I said, the only time I
    drove it was when you got drunk, and he said, see, you got to drive it
    so I don't know what you are complaining about.  So that is when I told
    him about all the promises he made and how he changed them all around. 
    I told him he didn't have to make false promises to me, I would have
    liked him anyway.  Well, he didn't  understand.  He then started to
    twist everything around as if I did something wrong and he is mad at me
    now.  He said, obviously you are use to going out with your friends
    after work, and you don't like  the idea of coming home right after
    work so you think of any excuse to do errands etc.  after work so you
    don't have to come home.  I couldn't believe it.  I do have to go to
    the grocery store, bank, gas station, pharmacy etc. sometimes after
    work, but that is  because I work all day and I have to do that after
    work.  I am still always home to make dinner at 5:00. He said I hardly
    come home after work and I'd rather be with my friends.  I haven't even
    dared to  see my friends after work, and he is still getting mad at me
    about it.  The only time I did that was yesterday, and that was my
    Aunt.
    
    I also have always taped my soap opera, and watched it at night.  
    Since I have been there, I didn't want to bother him so I have  pretty
    much stopped watching it.  The only time I'll turn it on is  when he is
    not there, or busy in another room.  I've never complained  or said
    anything.  Well, when I got home yesterday, he was outside so I put my
    soap opera on.  He said that all I ever do is watch my  soap opera and
    he can't even watch TV, he is going to have to move  another TV
    downstairs so he will be able to watch TV when he wants  without
    worrying about me.  I don't know why he said that because I had
    practically given up watching my soap opera just so I wouldn't 
    inconvenience him.  I FF through most of it, so it only take me 30
    minutes to watch.  
    
    Well anyway, he is now mad at me.  That is why I didn't want to say 
    anything to him.  It hurts to bite my tongue and keep it inside,  but
    when I try to talk to him, he accuses me of trying to start a  fight,
    twists things around to the point that I did something wrong and has a
    reason to be mad at me.  I tried not to let all this bother me, and
    concentrate on the good parts of the relationship, but for  some reason
    it is all building up now, and I can not relax.
    
    It is hard for me to express the good sides of the relationship, 
    probably because I'm feeling so bad now.  I really do love this  guy,
    and I know he loves me.  He is so much fun and a really nice  guy.  But
    this might be the side of him that caused him to be  single all these
    years.  
    
    I really appreciate your input, and I am feeling a little better  now
    just writing in here.  It helps to write this all out instead of
    keeping it inside.  Thanks again.
    

    This man is controlling you and you are leetting it happen.  I totally
    agree with the person who first answered you, reply .01.
    
    You are living for him and not for yourself.  Soon you will lose your
    family, friends, identity, feeling of self-worth.  Is a red car that
    you can't drive and maybe not having to work and less bills to pay
    worth being dependent on a non-supportive, controlling, potentially
    physically abusive and *definintely* mentally abusive relationship?
    
    That's what you have to ask yourself.  I think in your heart you know
    you have to leave him but you just have to find the strength to do it,
    your subconscious knows this isn't a healthy relationship.
    
    Good luck ....
    
    Tammi

    What is it exactly the good parts of the relationship??
    I've been reading through and I SEE very little good parts here...
    
    All I see is a very dominiering person who has coaxed you into selling
    and getting rid of your stuff while at the same time has given you
    NOTHING but empty words... you have lost quite a bit of your stability
    while he has lost nothing or given you anything either but just the
    oposite; you cannot see your friends, cannot watch your favorite TV,
    cannot go to do errands... cannot drive whatever car you want...
    gosh, you have given up so much already! for what??
    
    I fail to understand that you still think there are good sides in the 
    relationship... I don't see them... what are those? I would also be
    very WORRIED of his financial sources... I would have to be one hundred
    percent sure that his income is CLEAN in every facet of business, there
    are so many warped people around, and so many problems with drugs
    dealing and dirty easy money that it is VERY IMPORTANT to take any
    precausion possible.
    
    I you want to go on with this person I guess you have to do lots of
    research and communication to clear lots of things pending at the
    moment... please protect yourself, you already have given up too many
    things, don't get hurt voluntarily.
    
    Good luck.
    Ana
    
    
    
    
     

    I keep thinking back to the base noter's background ... he is "a lot
    older, very popular in the area, appears to be well off, I've known him
    9 years." What does this say? The man has been "around the block" a lot
    more than you, he knows how to manipulate and control others, he has
    fooled people by claiming to be well off, he fooled you into thinking
    he would take care of you. Why did it take 9 years before you started
    dating him? I think instead of attacking this guy, why not look at
    yourself, your own motives. The red car is just a symptom. You are
    allowing yourself to be manipulated, why? when you do something he
    likes does he reward you? does he share in your happiness? interests?
    does he ignore you around his friends? do you socialize alot together?
    do you think you can change him?

    Re. .7 and basenote
    
    I'm not sure, but this person's capability for "twisting" your words
    around sounds exceedingly unhealthy to me.  If this person has to
    read things into what you say, there is no logical way that a meaning-
    ful communication can occur.  If this person can't accept your
    statments at face value - let alone keep promises he makes to you -
    then I foresee a very rocky road.
    
    Take the time to plumb your own feelings, take the time to talk to your
    *real* friends.  As I see it, there's enough "bad" in this relationship
    to eventually poison what good there is.  Be careful.
    
    						--Eric--

    Sounds like he has some serious personality disorders and he'd like
    to keep you a prisoner in a world defined by him.  GET OUT... NOW.

    re: .8 (Tammi)
    
         Sadly, I agree.  It sounds (and we're only hearing one side--
    but if it's how the reality is for her, it's all that matters)
    as though the man is buying himself a caretaker, someone who he
    controls and dominates. 
         No, it doesn't sound particularly healthy for her.  This is not
    to say the man is bad, just that the criteria for a positive, loving
    relationship aren't quite there.
         I'd say remain where you are, and start learning how to be in 
    a relationship that isn't based on shame or some co-dependency.
    A good book that has just been published is "How fantasy relationships
    break real hearts" (I think; I'll look up the title tonight)
    by Kimberly Heart.  [I know Kimberly and have been reading a "galley"
    which she sent me.]  Kimberly comes from a real position of power,
    and if you listen to what she writes, will help you see that you 
    won't need to sell out in order to create or maintain a loving
    relationship.
    
    Frederick
    

    re: .13 (myself)
    
         I think the title is "How fairy tale romances break real 
    hearts."
    
    
    Frederick
    

    
    I have to agree with .15.  This is too scary.  Since the base note and
    the rest of the replies, I have a real bad feeling about this.  I've
    read all the replies to this trying to figure out what it is that's
    bothering me so much about this.  I haven't found it.
    
    BUT.....my gut says...RUN LIKE H*LL and attached to that is...if he'll
    let you.
    
    I'll admit it, I'm scared for anon.  Like something worse than selling
    her car or not being able to watch her soaps is going to happen.  I
    really, really hope not....but I've got a real bad feeling about this.
    
    Faith
    

I'm with .15 and .16.  To ask whether you should be worried in such a
situation is, in my opinion, an understatement.  In your shoes, I think
I'd be terrified.

The friends OR car OR the unexplained money situation are reason enough
to leave this relationship, no matter how much you think you love him or
how well you get along most of the time.  If I understand it correctly, he 
won't discuss any of them, but only seems to be willing to dictate the way 
it shall be, because he's the one with most/all of the money?  He seems to 
think he's bought you.  But are you really for sale?

This guy seems to have some *very* serious control issues.  I'd follow
.15's plan of action -- get yourself all set up, then leave "unexpectedly".
And good luck!

    Sharon

P.S.  Your description of him sounds a *lot* like the way my cousin's
husband acted before they were married.  She was head-over-heels in love
with him, and charmed by all the special treatment... even if he did have
a few "weird quirks".  (We kept suggesting she take a closer look at those
"quirks", but she thought we were crazy and didn't want her to be happy.  
Sigh.)  He's now got her under virtual house arrest -- no contact with 
family, can't go anywhere unless he or his mother drives her, can't work, 
given NO money for herself, etc. etc.  One of the last things she said to 
anyone in the family was that he had started abusing her physically as
well as emotionally.  Now, she stays because she's scared.

    Dear Basenoter,
    
    If there's one thing I've learned in life, it's if my "little voice"
    inside says there's something wrong, then there usually is.  I can 
    empathise hun...you love him, you want to be with him, but if it's this 
    way now, trust me, it'll only get worse - not better.  Walking away now 
    will hurt...but chances are it'll hurt ALOT worse if you hang in there. 
    He supposedly fell in love with YOU...now he wants YOU to change to
    suit HIS needs.  Unless you were raised to be a door mat - it's not
    gonna work.
    
    I feel for ya.  Good luck.
    
    Lynne
    

    
    	Dear .0,
    
    	I've been following this note and agree with all the previous
    replies - there's some real good suggestions for what to do from
    a lot of healthy people.
    
    	The red car part of your story just sounds so terrible. I mean
    when you read something like this that is so well written, you can
    have a reaction almost as if it was live - not "memorex". My
    reaction was anger. I could easily see someone telling this guy
    _just_ what to do, using all the appropriate expletives to convey
    their anger, about the time when he explained "well, you got to drive
    it once then...". KA-BOOM!
    
    	I mean this sick *twisting it around* stuff...when someone turns your 
    own assertions back in on you to the point where your head is spinning
    - it's got to say something about him! Obviously, you feel the "Whoop
    whoop - danger danger - warning Will Robinson!" of your own "little
    voice"; your internal guidance and protection system or you wouldnt have
    written in and entered this note.
    
    	I implore you, listen to what the people here have said and go with
    what your own gut feeling is telling you - it could save your life - or
    at least a good chunk of it.
    
    	Joe

    
    
        .0,
    	
    
    	From what you've said, there is going to be an unhappy ending to
    this story. I think you know that.
    
    	You're too afraid to make him mad. I suggest you say good-bye and
    when he asks why tell him. The truth as you know it. If he says fine,
    good-bye, then you know something. If he says, no I love you and don't
    want you to leave, things will change; make sure they do. 
    
    	You've already bought into too much of this and probably don't have
    the freedom to leave. He owns you. He tells what to do and you do it
    because you don't want to make him mad.
    
    	Make him mad. He's using his anger as a club to beat you into
    submission and he's succeeding. You are being beaten into submission
    and it will harder to deal with with every passing day. 
    
    	If this relationship is being accurately described by you it is
    SICK. Very healthy people sometimes get drawn into sick relationships
    and years later, after very unhappy endings, wonder why they let
    themselves be so abused in the name of love.
    
    	Is it love? Does he love you? When he insists you drive this old
    car or be home at 5 to cook his dinner is it your hapiness he is
    thinking about? Or his own need? His need will bury you and you will
    forget what the sun looks like.
    
    	Stop putting up with his crap and you may be able to make a go of
    it. Learn, fast, to say no to his anger. Learn to say I am going to drive 
    that red car because you said I could before I got rid of my car.
    Learn to say I am going to see my friend tonight after work for an hour
    or so so why don't you make dinner tonight.              
    
    
    	If you want a relationship you are going to have to be strong
    enough to create one. It will take a lot of work to make one out of
    what you now have.
    
    
    	Craig
    
    

    Wow, I haven't seen a note in here in a while that I've felt compelled
    to answer. Please consider carefully the advice in these replies!

    I know what you mean when you say "other parts are nice, I love him, he
    loves me..." I've been there and thank goodness I'm out. 
    Forget the good parts, listen to yourself describe the bad parts.  
    What you are describing is not a loving relationship. The biggest 
    red flag in your notes are the parts that say "I can't tell him or 
    I can't talk to him about this because..."

    In a real loving relationship partners don't twist your words around.
    They aren't threatened by your freedom. They want you to be happy and
    to grow. Loving partners listen to each other, even if what they hear
    is unpleasant, they work together to resolve disagreements. They key
    word is partners. You don't have a partner, you have a dictator. This
    man is not your father, you do not have to take orders from him. 
    Stop apologizing to him for living! 

    You are an adult, you have the freedom to decide what you want to do.
    You do not owe anyone an apology for wanting to socialize or work or
    keep your own schedule. Loving partners trust each other. Trust and
    open communications are essential to a happy relationship, please don't
    settle for less.  

    Talk to a friend that is in a happy relationship. Or take out words for
    it, in healthy relationships you don't have an anxious pit in your
    stomach. 
    
    Gail

    
    I think we should be careful about suggesting that she make her
    boyfriend angry.  We don't know this man and we don't know how he'll
    react.  I think it is more appropriate to suggest that if she is not
    afraid of physical harm, then she should push to resolve the issue.
    If she is afraid of physical harm, then she should not be with this
    man.
    
    Rachael

    .20
    I could not have said it better. It is so easy to see things that are 
    so wonderful, while making excuses for the things that are not.
     
    This relationship is very distructive. Forget about making him mad..
    Get out while you still have some sense of yourself. The longer you 
    stay the more he will take from you. You were you before he came. He 
    has only made your life complicated and hurtful. He made unkept and 
    expensive promises he won't keep. Not can't, won't. Ask yourself...do I 
    really need this..I bet the answer will be NO...
    You are allowing this to happen everyday that you stay. I will be hard
    at first but the days will pass and it will get easier. I'm sure you 
    have gotten over worse things. Take it from one who knows. It hurts 
    when the man you thought loved you,makes all the dreams and hopes that 
    you've been dreaming about since you were a kid, your biggest nightmares. 
    Don't let him further damage your self worth or your self-esteem. He 
    seems like he needs control..Let him control his own life and you control 
    your own. If he loves you for who you are, why does he want you to
    change. The things he is taking from you are things you've worked very
    hard for and I'm sure you would just give them away, but you are....
    Your gut is telling you something. Don't ignore it. Your gut is seeing
    something your eyes aren't. Your heart is speaking, not your mind. You
    sound like a very bright an sensible person, use your head and decide
    if you like being jerked around or you like doing the things that make
    you happy. Being with out him can't be as bad as being with him. 
    You need to be happy with yourself before anything will work. He is not
    allowing this type of interaction. Because will not be in control of
    you or anything you do. 
    I have been through this, I sought out help but, I allowed this to 
    be done, and didn't take good advise from people who knew the person
    I was before he came around. I am glad for the person I am now. You 
    will be too. Stop being a doormat, listen to that sixth sense that is
    telling you, something is wrong...step back and look, HINDSITE is 100%
    when you are thinking clearly. Don't blame yourself. This is his
    problem and he should deal with it. Get out.
    
    It's never bad to say you made a mistake about someone. You can't be
    expected to know all things about everyone. So now's the time to depend
    on those people who claim to be your friends. They will be there for 
    you. If not, then you will know who your real friends are. Your family
    is always there. Use your resources before it gets worse. Regain the 
    independance you worked so hard to get. You had the 
    sense enough to write, now have the guts to walk !! You know you
    shouldn't be there or you wouldn't have written this note. But, you need 
    support and by the looks of things, you have it from all of us...
    This is your life, not anyone elses. Protect yourself and move on.
    If you need to decmail someone..feel free. 
    
    Michelle
     
    

    re.7
    Reading your note made me understand why I have been so unsuccessful
    at keeping women in my life....
    
    I must not be a big enough jerk!
    
    NOT!
    
    What you describe dosen't sound like a relationship *I* would want
    to be involved in. Do you like to suffer?
    
    -j

    This is the beginning of the "Battered Wife Syndrome".  He is already
    trying to isolate you from your friends, complaining that you already
    go out with your friends after work and that the trips to the grocery
    store take time away from him.  In turn, I hear guilt about doing these
    activities.  I hear you buying into abuse and manipulation.
    
    I strongly suggest buying the book "Getting Free" by Ginny NiCarthy. 
    This is just the start of what could be a very long, abusive
    relationship.  I agree with the others.  Get out NOW!

    
    Sounds like he is manipulating you in a *very* codependent way.
    
    Read "I'm dancing as fast as I can" to see where this can take you if
    you're not careful.
    
    And, here's the good news:
    
    Love doesn't have to hurt, and it shouldn't mean you're walking on
    eggshells and changing things you normally do to please someone else. 
    You deserve someone who will love you how you are, and encourage you to
    have a life both with them and outside of them - only then can true
    perspective and life balance occur.  
    
    He sounds possessive and whimsical, and this is a potentially dangerous
    situation.  It sounds like he is VERY used to getting EXACTLY what he
    wants in relationship or punishing until he does.  Please don't
    tolerate him.  You are worth *such* better treatment.
    
    -Jody
    

The same as some others in here - first time I've felt I really *had to*
say something....

It doesn't sound like this situation is right or good at all!


        It's NOT YOUR FAULT though if it isn't.


You're a better person to have the strength to walk away from something
that doesn't include you as yourself and all that comes with you if you
can't get it so it is including the real you.

I was suprised not to see the tone of it must be my fault - I'm being
unreasonable wanting these things... That's how it gets some of us...
and some of us try to change and boy does it not work... the more
you change to what he says he wants from you the more he'll want to
suck out of your life by the sounds... and make you change more ... til
it's impossible to change any more - or until however much he's convinced
you you really should change common sense'll override and you'll be
unable to kid yourself he's right any more... and it really hurts to
back out of something that's got so far. (Not that you don't recover -
that seems to happen without your noticing I think... when you've taken
all the good advice and tried numbly to do all the stuff everyone tells you
is sensible.)

You don't fail in any way to walk away from something that seems like
it'll eventually destroy what you are and if those friends you used to see
before are real people and good friends they'll stand by you and care when
you feel alone and stand there having to admit that things didn't work out
how you dreamt and hoped they would.

There are loads of decent people out there who treat people like adult human
beings not like property or a charge they're responsible for...  tie-ing
yourself to a mysoginist (ok some may object to that term but in a lot of
ways it fits the behaviour by the sounds) is not only mentally unhealthy
but physically so too sooner or later for most women...

Something that might help may be getting friend to listen,
someone you respect too and trust,  someone who you'd feel maybe sad or
even a little ashamed in front of to start with to admit to the %^&* you've
been taking (because they know you're worth so so much more than that kind
of treatment - and you sure sound like you are) but who cares about you and
maybe as you tell them more you can get yourself indignant about the fact that
you have every right to be treated like an adult,
and for gods sake if he loves you then why's he trying to change everything
about you?  That's not *you* he loves is it? Eh? He must just love you as an
accessory, suddenly you become on a par with the pretty red car (less so if
you aren't allowed to drive it).... Then maybe... although it hurts you'll
get yourself enough convictions of your own worth (no-one but no-one is worthy
of being treated like that) to the best possible position for yourself -
out of it...


Reforming people with problems/hang-ups doesn't pay - you can help friends
but by definition with friends it's a 2 way thing...

It wouldn't make you anything special if you can be the one to make the
difference to him by the devotion you show either - all it'll do is drain
you by the sounds of it.  Then what are you left with ?
You've got him, great - where's you gone though!!!

<sigh>

People out here care though - remember that - I'm sure most of us who
sympathise won't mind if you want to drop mails... I certainly wouldn't...

I envy you the network freedom and his not being able to tell you you're
doing something wrong in talking to us "strangers-friends" like this...


A book I found reflected this kind of situation well was "Men who hate women
and the women who love them" - You don't even have to feel guilty about
criticising
him too much except in the title - it looks a hell of a lot at why us
daddys girls (amongst others) go for these situations and get ourselves
emotionally trashed.


I could go on for ever... (I think I already have a bit..)

Mail me if you can stand any more  :-)

Jo

BTW It feels lovely to suddenly be free to do some of those things again
once you can - like some kind of a drug!
                                                                                

	Hi again. The bad feeling I had in my stomach has been gone since
	Saturday morning. This seems to be the normal pattern in this 
	relationship. I usually feel really good about it, and I'm happy and
	very much in love. Then, suddenly everything bad about the relationship
	hits me, and I get very scared. When I am in that mode, I feel so
	upset, I could cry at any time. 

	I think the reason he refused to let me drive the red car on Friday
	when he needed the truck, was to punish me for going to my Aunts 
	house. It had nothing to do with the windshield wipers. The reason
	I feel this way is because one of his tenants left one of his apart-
	ments a mess when they moved, so I took a vacation day on Monday to
	clean the apartment for him. While doing this, he took the truck
	to the store to get a few cleaning things etc. The brake lights have
	been on, on the truck for over a month now, and the windshield also
	leaks water on the drivers lap when it rains. He told me not to worry
	about the brake light, it must be just the sensor. When he got back
	from the store he said, "The brake light is still on in the truck, 
	I'll have to fix that and the windshield one day this week, so you 
	will have to take the red car". He never did fix it, but he needed
	the truck, and decided I couldn't drive the red car after all. 

	After reading all the reply's for this note on Friday, I really 
	decided that I had to leave him. I felt that he didn't listen to 
	anything I had to say when I confronted him Thursday night. He had 
	turned it around and acted mad at me. I want you to know, that when 
	he does this, I do not go along with him as if I did something wrong. 
	Since he wouldn't let me drive the red car to work on Friday, I called
 	a friend of mine who works with me, and asked him for a ride to work. 
	My boyfriend was upset. He didn't want 	me to inconvenience someone 
	for a ride when he had a vehicle for me to drive. I said I'd rather 
	get a ride from him. He was upset. 

	When I got home on Friday, I didn't know what to expect. He was out
	by the pool testing the chlorine, and he called out a hello when he
	heard me. He was real nice, asked how my day was etc. I went to change
	out of my work clothes, and after he came up to me and gave me a kiss 
	and said "You didn't even kiss me when you came home", and asked "Didn't
	you want to kiss me?". I said I always want to kiss you, and he asked
	me why I didn't. I said I didn't know. I could tell he was feeling 
	real bad and a little worried. He asked me if I wanted to go out to
	dinner, and he took me to a nice restaurant. He used to take me out
	a lot when we first started to date, but he stopped doing that months
	ago. He has become very cheap, and he must of realized that too. So
	we went out and we talked. He said that he doesn't think I can handle
	having the responsibility to come home and have dinner with him. I
	told him that I love to come home and have dinner with him, but 
	sometimes if something comes up, I can't do that. Then he said, what 
	if he went out with his friends on a Thursday night after work, and 
	did that every week. I said, that would be okay if that is what he
	wanted to do. I told him that I actually felt afraid of him, and was
	afraid to do things so he wouldn't get mad at me. He said, "Well if
	you feel afraid, that is because you know you are doing something
	wrong". At that point I felt it was hopeless. He could tell, and we
	sat there without talking for a while, then he said, I really love you,
	you know. I told him that I loved him too, and that is why it is going
	to hurt so much when I leave him. I also told him that I had talked to
	my manager, and found out that if I didn't take the transfer, or the
	package, I could stay where I was. I also told him that my friend from
        work offered to give me a ride to work every day if I needed one until
	I bought a new car. He knew I was serious. Anyway, he is finally
	listening to me and really going to try. We had a great weekend, and
	I feel much better now then I did at the end of last week. 
	
	A lot of you asked what the good parts of the relationship are. Well,
	we really do get along good and love being together. We laugh all
	the time. We really are in love, and other people comment on it all 
	the time. His friends all tell me that he really loves me and that
	they never saw him like this before about anyone. We socialize a lot
	together, actually we do everything together. He treats me very nice
        in front of his friends, he stays right with me and always includes
	me in the conversations. He is very loving towards me, always
	compliments me, and we are both physically attracted to one another.

 	I'm not with him for the material things he can give me. I am
	with him because I like him and want to be with him. He is the one
	that started to say he could do this, and give me that. Being able
	to drive the red car isn't the issue. The issue is that we were 
	planning on moving. I was hoping to get a package and using that
	money to go to school and switch careers. It was a great opportunity.
	He suggested and supported this. In order to do this, we wanted to
	make sure I didn't have any bills. So, he said sell your car to get
	rid of the car payment, and I could pay off my other bills in the
	mean time. When he told me to just sell my car, he said you can
	drive my red car until we move. If he had said I could drive his
	truck until we move, that would have been okay too. We were doing 
	it for a reason. What upsets me is that he never intended to let me
	drive that car, but he kept saying it until the day I sold my car.
	I was upset and even cried when I sold me car. It was emotional for
	me because I felt like I was loosing a lot of my independence and I
	loved me car.

	I am not stupid enough to leave my career to be with him. I already
	feel dependent enough just living in his house and driving his truck. 
	I rented out my house, the people just moved in. I still have to pay
	an additional $200 a month to cover my mortgage, so if I move out and
	get another place now, I won't be able to afford it. Things are look-
	ing better now, so hopefully it will work out. Thank you all for your
	input, it really has helped. Now I know that I wasn't worrying for
	nothing, and if things don't change, I will leave. I will probably
	take the transfer, and we will move to his other house in another
	state. I admit this has me a little scared because, if I have to leave
	him, it will be more difficult. Well, I have gone on enough about
	this. I can't thank you enough for the help. Thanks again.

    
    Re -.1
    
    >I can't figure
    >why a healthy woman (not even married to this man) would stay in a less
    >that balanced, equal, loving relationship??????
    
    	Well, that's pretty obvious - really.
    
    I cant figure why, when someone writes in here - in desparation -
    asking for advice - and eighteen people basically all say the same 
    thing in reply, that eventually you'll read the 'ol:
    
    	"Well it's been a couple weeks now and I've thought about what
    everyone's said, and have decided that it's really not a problem
    after all - things arent *that* bad as I've described in .0... 
    So, I'm not going to take the advice I've seen here in multitude; 
    I'm going to go and do just the opposite!"
    
    	I know *I* sound harsh, but why even bother to inquire if you're
    just going to jump back into the original situation anyway? Re-kindle
    the original denial towards it all anyway? Manage to "not hear" the 
    advice originally asked for?
    
    	It's not just with this note - it's happened in others too.
    
    	Joe

    re .28
    How frustrating for us all to read. We can cumulatively shake our heads
    and sigh.
     
    I remember all to well that tired line I used to use "yes, that's a
    problem BUT we get along so well other wise" , especially in front of
    our friends. I hope the basenoter can try just once, to stop making
    rationalizations for him. Try not finishing your sentence: "He makes me
    upset."(leave out the 'but')

    A bad feeling in your stomach should not be a normal pattern. Feeling
    so upset by the way you are treated that you could cry is not what love
    is all about. 
    
    Perhaps we need a pointer to the "what's love" note (surely there is
    one).
    
    Gail

    Gail
    
    a quick directory of the file using dir /title="love" turns up
    over 40 notes, one of which, #463 is indeed titled "what is love".
    
    Bonnie

What worries me is that the author of the base note is likely to be well on
her way to being a "statistic", of the unpleasant sort.  But if anyone is
wondering why so many women stay in abusive relationships, perhaps this will
yield some insight.

			Steve

    I hope it also sheds some insight into another issue...
    
    It takes two people to make up an abusive relationship.
    An abuser, and an abusee.
    If the abuser stops abusing there is no longer an abusive relationship
    If the abusee no longer presents as a victim, there is no longer an
    abusive relationship.
    
    ancillary comment ...
    the victim probably has a greater vested interest in stopping the abuse
    than does the abuser.
    
    				herb

    
    I am going to earmark the parts of this that send up REAL warning
    sirens in me.  This man sounds *remarkably* controlling and unhealthy. 
    It sounds like women are an adornment and an appendage that he assumes
    control of and want to totally dominate.  I may be wrong, but I need to
    say this.
    
    
re: .28
    	
    >	I think the reason he refused to let me drive the red car on
    >Friday
>	when he needed the truck, was to punish me for going to my Aunts 
    
    Punishing you for going to your Aunt's?  WHY?  you're a person just
    like him.  You love your aunt.  why shouldn't you see her?
    
>	will have to take the red car". He never did fix it, but he needed
>	the truck, and decided I couldn't drive the red car after all. \
    
    he sounds whimsically controlling - like he must have things his way.

>	My boyfriend was upset. He didn't want 	me to inconvenience someone 
>	for a ride when he had a vehicle for me to drive. I said I'd rather 
>	get a ride from him. He was upset. 
    
    So it's him or nothing.  Him or no one.  He wants you to depend on him
    for everything, and accept gladly whatever he chooses to dole out to
    you when it comes to dinner out, what you drive, what you do with your
    time, perhaps eventually even what you wear.

>	heard me. He was real nice, asked how my day was etc. I went to change
>	out of my work clothes, and after he came up to me and gave me a kiss 
>	and said "You didn't even kiss me when you came home", and asked "Didn't
>	you want to kiss me?". I said I always want to kiss you, and he asked
>	me why I didn't. I said I didn't know. I could tell he was feeling 
>	real bad and a little worried. He asked me if I wanted to go out to
>	dinner, and he took me to a nice restaurant. He used to take me out
    
    Sounds like he was afraid he'd lose you.  He may need you, but he can't
    need you to be your own person, he seems to need you to be HIS person.
    
>	we went out and we talked. He said that he doesn't think I can handle
>	having the responsibility to come home and have dinner with him. I
>	told him that I love to come home and have dinner with him, but 
>	sometimes if something comes up, I can't do that. Then he said, what 
>	if he went out with his friends on a Thursday night after work, and 
>	did that every week. I said, that would be okay if that is what he
    
    It's not a *responsibility* to come home and have dinner with him - it
    should be a conscious choice or decision. A choice means you have
    options.  It's like saying someone can't handle the responsibility of
    wearing a green suit, which they should of course *always* wear.  Why
    are there no options?  What happens to *your* desires, *your* freedoms,
    *your* life, *your* choices?
    
>	wanted to do. I told him that I actually felt afraid of him, and was
>	afraid to do things so he wouldn't get mad at me. He said, "Well if
>	you feel afraid, that is because you know you are doing something
>	wrong". At that point I felt it was hopeless. He could tell, and we
    
    This is really frightening.  You are doing NOTHING wrong.  What he
    labels WRONG is your HAVING NEEDS and WANTING TO BE YOUR OWN PERSON.  A
    relationship doesn't mean handing over the keys to everything you are
    to someone else and letting THEM drive your life however they want.
    
>	I bought a new car. He knew I was serious. Anyway, he is finally
>	listening to me and really going to try. We had a great weekend, and
>	I feel much better now then I did at the end of last week. 
    
    Watch to see if his actions are congruous with his promise.  Does he
    still control?  Does he let you go where you wish, when you wish,
    without punishing you?  Is there freedom for you to comfortably choose
    what you wish to do?  What he has been doing in the past feels like he
    has no RESPECT for you as an individual, as a human being.  
	
>	the time. His friends all tell me that he really loves me and that
>	they never saw him like this before about anyone. We socialize a lot
>	together, actually we do everything together. He treats me very nice
 >       in front of his friends, he stays right with me and always includes
>	me in the conversations. He is very loving towards me, always
>	compliments me, and we are both physically attracted to one another.
    
    I've been in love like this.  We did everything together because he
    discouraged me from being with my friends.  And I went along with it. 
    Until there was just us.  I was where he wanted, when he wanted, how he
    wanted.  He treated me nice in front of his friends and included me in
    the conversations because that's how he was supposed to be, but when we
    were alone it wasn't always that nice.  He included me in
    conversations, but the conversations were about what *he* wanted to
    discuss, *his* interests.  He complimented me when it suited him, and
    when I was acting the way he wanted.  He had a temper.  He never hit
    me, but he hit things *around* me, and it frightened me.  Badly.  I
    walked on eggshells, wondering how he felt, and how he would react to
    any need or want I had.  Should I express it?  Would it make him angry? 
    But we were in love!  Of course I should want to please him!  Of course
    he loved me!  Of course we'd make it work!  For 18 months I forgot
    about me, in my desire to be with him.  It cost me most of my friends. 
    It cost me my self-esteem.  It cost me a lot.
    
    Please think twice about being in this relationship, or go see a
    counselor either alone or with him.
    
    -Jody
    

> I think the reason he refused to let me drive the red car on Friday
> 	when he needed the truck, was to punish me for going to my Aunts 
> 	house. 

>  He didn't want me to inconvenience someone 
> 	for a ride when he had a vehicle for me to drive. I said I'd rather 
>	get a ride from him. He was upset. 

>  He said that he doesn't think I can handle
>	having the responsibility to come home and have dinner with him.

> He said, "Well if
>	you feel afraid, that is because you know you are doing something
>	wrong". 

> He knew I was serious. Anyway, he is finally
>	listening to me and really going to try...I will probably
>	take the transfer, and we will move to his other house in another
>	state.

    Anon, I don't get it either!  This guy's whole way of thinking has you
    cast as an inferior being.  He may change some of his actions for a
    while, but his way of thinking is unlikely to change.  Given the odds,
    I wouldn't take the transfer right now.  If you must, give him time,
    and make sure that he really is respecting your choices, sharing
    with you, and keeping his promises.  As evidenced by the attitude in 
    the above statements, this is a *major* change for him.  He might not 
    be able to do on his own, or he might not *really* *want* to change.
 
    In the meantime, take care of your self-esteem and look out for your own
    interests... and keep an eye on who's driving that red car.  I know
    it's not really about the red car per se, but unless he's selling it, 
    that's one promise of his that should be easy to keep.

    BTW, Jody's comments (.35), are well worth listening to.  I know Jody,
    and I have a lot of respect for what she has to say about relationships
    and self-esteem.  If Jody told me to think twice about what a relationship
    was doing to my self-esteem, I would think at least four times.

	Sharon


     
     

    
    

    

Reading the basenote and the follow-up basenote really hits home in so many
relationships that many of my friends had (some still participating in) and
hits a nerve in me also.  Sometimes when you enter a note your looking for help,
looking for someone to explain why all this is happening - hoping that someone 
will come up with the magic answer.  There is not always a magic answer. 
100 replys telling the basenoter to get out of the relationship will not be 
enough to make her see whats going on.  She only sees that this man loves her 
and that is enough for her to dismiss everything else he does. 

Until she is healthy enough to realize that this "love" or what she sees is love
is really not what it appears to be;  she will excuse and
rationalize everything he does.   This man IMO hasn't got the faintest
idea what love is.  I have to ask her if she would treat anyone.. friends,
family or him the way that he has treated her and if she says no, I would
ask her to ask herself why she wouldn't and listen to that answer.

I would urge the basenoter to talk to someone who can help her.

Sometimes it can take along time to realize that we deserve more than
just the pain.

    

    .35 Jody, You hit the nail on the head. Boy, I could have used you 
    a year ago. 
    
    Anon, I hope you read over your entries, they will seem kind of obvious
    to you that it's time to move on and move out..fast..Boy, This guy is a 
    great case study for some eager psychologist..him and my ex...
    You will keep making excuses for him, I said it in my first note. So
    what does that do...in your mind, he is wonderful, in his mind you are 
    a doormat..he can jerk you here, jerk you there, and you love it..you 
    must like this treatment or you'd go find better. I read your second
    entry and thought you really took all of the advise to heart and used 
    your head, and found some strength, and left....then I almost choked 
    when you decided to stay..I think all of us at one time did the same
    thing..I know I did, and you know what...he isn't around anymore, I 
    decided that my life was worth more than "walking on eggshells" and 
    being "punished" for something...I'm not a child, nor do I need to 
    be punished, do you...He is punishing you for what...what is that..
    Come on, I had more faith in your intelligence and integrity than 
    that, this isn't the first time he has done something like this to 
    you nor will it be the last, not by any means. You know something 
    isn't right, or you wouldn't be asking for advise. You need to get
    out.
    Herb was right. It take two to be in a distructive relationship..
    If you stop the chain of events, the distruction stops. This will 
    keep happening until one of you stops this chain of events that 
    always happens. He WON'T. Take that to heart. He love no one. He 
    doesn't even like himself, what make you think he can love anyone
    else. He is on a power play and that is his MO. He has been and 
    always will be this way. He hasn't change yet, think about it,
    is three weeks, three days, or three months of acceptable behavoir
    ok, if he just reverts back to the old behavior, NOT !!!!!!!!!!!!!
    He sounds like he does this to everyone. I know it sounds harsh and
    I can imagine some of the things that are going through your mind
    about this note and others you read, but if you were "allowed" to 
    talk to your family and close friends, then they would tell you the
    same. Maybe some of them would "choose" to let you stay with him 
    because once you stay, you give him more reason to control. 
    
    Please, before this comes to an aweful ending...don't be a statistic
    
    GET OUT NOW...
    
    

Dear Anon,

Keep an eye on the TV Guide listings this summer. Watch
for a rerun of an Oprah Winfrey show where she interviewed
several male pathological liars and the women who had
the misfortune to be close (and trusting) to them.  I 
hope you can see it ... especially the last ten minutes
where a few of the men "explain" their actions by
twisting the words of the women around. 

Your friend may not quite make the pathological liar class,
but perhaps he has not yet achieved his full bloom either.

Good luck to you. You sound like a terrific person.

 Meigs

PS to all:  Pathological liars can be male or female; Oprah
            only had specimens from the male side. 

    re.28
    I can't believe what I read! 
    
    If you are too stupid to get away from the fire you deserve to get
    burnt!
    
    Sorry to be so blunt but I am totaly amazed when I see/read people
    doing what you say in your note. You are excusing his actions by
    accepting the blame for the abuse. I have seen this pattern so many
    times it feels like a broken record with several women and men I know.
    They waste my valuable time bitching about how unhappy they are,
    about how badly they are treated on and on and on then go right back
    for more. I'm not a violent person but there are times I feel like
    slapping some sense into them only reason I haven't is they would
    probably enjoy the abuse.
    
    I have wanted to ask this question before but what is it that drives
    these people to stay in bad relationships?
    Do they enjoy the abuse?
    Do they enjoy telling others about how bad it is at home i.e.
    the center of attention?
    WHAT?
    
    I am at a total loss.................
    
    
    -j
    

    I too was HEARTBROKEN to read your latest entry, Basenoter.  I'm tired
    of watching friends of mine get caught in very abusive relationships
    like yours, KNOWING somehow that they have to DO something to break the
    cycle of abuse, but then not having the courage or maybe enough
    self-confidence to actually do it.  I have seen this pattern before. 
    Don't WAIT until he REALLY hurts you BAD enough to SHOCK you into
    action.  WAKE UP...OF COURSE YOU BELIEVE YOU LOVE HIM AND YOU ALSO
    BELIEVE HE LOVES YOU!!!  And of COURSE he is making an effort now to
    win you back...HE NEEDS YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    But PLEASE ask yourself WHY he needs you.  I'd like to tell you that
    this guy is really SICK.  But I won't because I know you won't listen
    to me or anyone else...even if your BEST FRIEND told you what she
    REALLY thought of this guy, "LOVE" is blind.  I've played the part of
    the best friend more than once.  If you choose to continue this
    relationship, you're going to hurt a LOT of people close to you
    including all your friends and family, because THEY are going to HURT
    for you!!!  Please...if you can't end this relationship for yourself,
    try to consider how his abusing you is going to affect ALL the OTHER
    people in your life that you care about!!!  Wish I could write more but
    I've got to go for now...
    
    -Dave
    

        A couple of reasons people stay in these types of relationships is
    Hypervigilence and Identifying with their abuser.  I urge anyone who
    wants to know more about this syndrome to read John Bradshaw: On The
    Family.  There is no way I have the training/skills neccessary to
    convey the knowledge this book afforded me.  He also wrote "Healing The
    Shame That Binds You" and "Homecoming".  
        Basenoter, please at least read "On The Family"

    Maybe people stay in bad relationships because they don't think they
    can do any better than what they currently have.  There is also the
    fear of being alone, the feeling that "I'm getting older and therefore
    should hurry up and settle down with the first person who asks, in case
    I never get another chance."
    
    The way it appears to me is that the basenoter is fully aware of the
    abuse cycle, but chooses to focus on the positive aspects of the
    relationship because being with him is far better than being alone and
    having to start all over again with someone new.  She doesn't sound
    stupid (as many have already pointed out), just scared.
    
    -Roberta
      

    <because being with him is far better than being alone and
    <having to start all over again with someone new. 
    
    It is?
    I see that as being one of the mind sets that get people into abusive
    relationships to begin with.
    
    				herb

    Basenoter:
    
    I too, can't believe what I read when you said you decided to stay with
    this man.  In your second note, this man sounds even more controlling
    and sicker than your first.  I cannot imagine someone "punishing"
    someone for going to be with a family member.
    
    Anyway, it is not my intention to point finger and to make you feel
    upset.  My intention is to tell you that you are heading for a major
    tragedy in life if you stay with this man.  I forsee physical and
    mental abuse -- please dont' do this to yourself.
    
    I was one once who was physically and mentally abused by my first
    boyfriend.  I have terrible scars to prove it.  After I finally got the
    courage to end the relationship, never again did I date someone who was
    abusive in that way.  I learned my lesson, but what a terrible price. 
    My former boyfriend had all the same personality traits as your SO. 
    And let me tell you, he said and did the same garbage your SO is
    telling you.
    
    You are "justifying" in his defense.  Put yourself *out* of your own
    shoes right now and re-read these memos.  If you *weren't* the
    basenoter, what would you say and how would you percieve what was going
    on?
    
    Think about this again, please.
    
    Tammi  
    
    

    Well, my jaw hit the floor when I read that you were being "punished"
    for visiting your aunt!  Why do you need to be punished for this?  Take
    what Jody said to heart.  She is 100% right!  Please, for your sake,
    get out of this relationship before it gets worse.
    
    Karen

    
    I too, feel badly for the basenoter.
    
    However, I would like to suggest that people who post notes like
    this are in need of SUPPORT!!! Not castigation.  Her intelligence
    should not be in question now.  She is in a tough situation and we
    all do things in tough times that we would not otherwise do.  
    
    In answer to a question of why do people post notes and then not
    take the advice?  That question sounds like your ego is hurt because
    she didn't do just as you say.  People post notes to gather
    information - not to be told what to do and blindly obey.  She is 
    doing what she, as an adult, has decided to do.  I am with most of you
    in disagreeing with the wisdom of her decision, but she needs our
    support REGARDLESS of what she does.
    
    Rachael

    
    Is the basenoter in need of support?  Hell yes!
    
    Having been (and still to some degree being) codependent, I often found
    that I would stay with someone no matter how they treated me, just so I
    could be with them.  They were more important than I am.
    
    I acknowledge the basenoter *utterly* in requesting our comments and
    assistance and support, and I understand where behavior like this can
    come from.  It is NOT intentional.  NOBODY gets into a relationship
    that is painful and stays there without a *damn good reason*.  But
    there are also good reasons NOT to stay there.
    
    Basenoter, if you want to get in touch with me offline, my dtn is
    226-6071.  There's CoDA (codependents anonymous) groups which teach you
    that relationships like this are *not* the only way.  There's friends
    who would gladly spend time with you if you felt lonely.  And I'm
    pretty damn sure there's a healthier relationship waiting for you on
    the horizon, but you'll have to have the courage and the faith that it
    will be there for you, and that *your* needs are worth meeting....
    
    take care,
    
    -Jody
    

    
    	It's not that my ego was hurt, per se, I'm just awed by how
    clearly the facts just cut no ice when it comes to someone making an
    emotional decision for themselves.
    
    	I'm not going to support someone in their choice to "jump off
    the bridge anyway". My take is "the door swings both ways" here
    - dont let it bump you in the behind on your way out because you
    dont happen to like the advice given.
    
	I *can* be constructive, in the form of a suggestion -
    Read Robin Norwood's multi-million copy bestseller "Women who love
    too much" and *educate* yourself on the subject, before going off
    with making major life decisions. The back cover says:
    
    	"WHEN BEING IN LOVE MEANS BEING IN PAIN....
    
    	Why do so many women become obsessed with the wrong men - men
    who are emotionally unavailable, addicted to work, alcohol or other
    women - men who cannot love them back? In this stunning bestseller,
    therapist Robin Norwood helps these women recognize, understand
    and *change* the way they love.
    
    	WOMEN WHO LOVE TOO MUCH...
    
    	...Find themselves attracted to troubled, distant, moody men
    	- dismiss "nice guys" as boring
    
    	...Neglect their friends and interests to be available to *him*
    
    	...Tend to panic - think that time to find love is running out
    
    	...Feel empty without him, although being with him is torment
    
    	Through a series of intimate, revealing case histories and a
    ten point recovery program, Robin Norwood offers women as sure way
    to free themselves from destructive loving. Women who love too much
    *can* recover - when they find the power to love themselves"
    
	Here's some excerpts from the index -
    
       "Acceptance, vs denial and control, 177
    	Beauty and the Beast fairy tale, 137-38, 176-77
    	Care givers, attraction of men to, 115
    	Changing others, 86, 92. See also Control/control of others
	appeal of, 139 
    	through love, 138-139, 
    	need for, 143 152-153, 156
 	Cleaning compulsion, 192
    	Denial, 6-7, 143 
    	and defense of relationships, 211 
    	in dysfunctional families, 6-7, 140-141, 157, 168 
    	of emotional needs, 15   
    	of feelings, 15, 60
    	function of, 139-41 176
    	and getting help, 226
    	Disease process, relationship addiction as, 204-06
	Emotionally distant/unavailable men, 7, 9, 17, 18, 87-88, 134
    	Emotional pain, addiction to, 8
	Fathers, attachment to, 13
    	dependance of, 73
    	emotionally distant, 11
    	lack of, 87-88, 91
    	relationship with daughters, 76-77
    	replication of relationship with, 87
    	violent, 84,95"
    	
    	I havent even got to "G", and it's *all* pretty much here!
    
    	Hope this helps,
    
    	Joe
    	

    
    	re .51 -
    
    	Well, I have the book here, I'll look it up - Here's material
    through page 192 -

    	"Because Brenda looked to Rudy for appreciation and validation,
    his inability to do so drove her self esteem, already marginal,
    even lower. The less he gave her, the more she needed from him.
    She worked on perfecting her appearance, but felt that she was missing
    some mysterious attractive element the dark haired woman with whom
    Rudy had his affair all seemed to effortlessly exude. She pushed
    herself harder to be thinner, because being thinner meant being
    more perfect. She became a perfectionist about housekeeping as well,
    and soon was totally occupied by her various obsessive compulsive
    behaviors, cleaning, stealing, eating, vomiting. While Rudy was out
    drinking and running around, Brenda was cleaning the house late
    into the night, guiltily hopping into bed and feigning sleep if
    she heard his car pull into the garage below.

    	Rudy complained about her fastidiousness around the house and
    rather aggresively undid the effects of her careful cleaning each
    evening when he came home, whether early or late. The result was
    that Brenda couldnt wait for him to leave so that she could clean
    and straighten what he messed up. When he left for the evening's
    drinking and carousing, she felt relief. Everything was getting
    crazier.
    
    	Her arrest in the drugstore was doubtless a blessing, in that
    it created a crisis that got her into counseling, where she started
    looking at what her life had become. She had wanted to get away
    from Rudy for a long time but hadnt been able to let go of the
    compulsion to fix the relationship by perfecting herself. Ironically,
    the more completely she seperated from him, the more ardently he
    pursued her, with flowers, phone calls, showing up at her work place
    unexpectedly with tickets to a concert. Her co-workers, who first
    met him while he was playing this role, thought Brenda foolish to
    leave such an adoring, devoted man. It took two hope-filled
    reconciliations, each followed by painful breakups, for her to learn
    that Rudy only wanted what he couldnt have. Once they lived together
    as man and wife, his womanizing quickly resumed. During the second
    breakup Brenda told him she thought he had a problem with drinking
    and drugs. He set about getting help to prove he didnt. For two
    months, he was clean and sober. They reconciled again, and on the
    occasion of their first argument a few days later he drank and stayed
    out all night. When this happened, Brenda, with the help of therapy,
    saw the pattern in which they were both caught. Rudy was using the
    deliberately created turbulance of his relationship with Brenda
    to both camoflage and justify his addictive pursuit of alcohol,
    drugs, and women. At the same time Brenda was using the tremendous
    tension created by their relationship as an excuse for surrendering
    to and indulging in her bulemia and other compulsive behaviors.
    Each used the other to avoid dealing with themselves and their own
    addictions. When Brenda finally recognized this, she was able to
    let go of the hope that she could have a happy marriage." (with Rudy)

    	So, open this book to a random page - find out just how it all
    works! ("Cleaning compulsion" is just one thing in a set of possible 
    compulsive behavior characteristics of a codependant person in a 
    codependant relationship).
    
    	In just this short excerpt (which I didnt pick), you can see why 
    it's so difficult to discontinue something that's "co-dependant" - on 
    some level, it is very "useful" to both parties to avoid dealing with 
    something typically very painful - for each.
    
    	To find out what Brenda's recovery from this involved, buy the book.
    
    	Joe

    I had composed a brief reply to show the putative connection between
    compulsive cleaning and codepencency. Joe's much more extensive
    response makes my response superfluous.
    One additional comment however...
    There is no NECESSARY connection between compulsive cleaning and
    codependency.
    The compulsive cleaning COULD be a symptom of OBSESSIVE COMPULSIVE
    disorder, a far different matter than codependency (which has not yet
    made it into DSM IIIR as a disorder) There is some movement afoot to
    include CODEPENDENCY into DSM IV which is scheduled for publication
    some time fairly soon.
    
    				herb

    re.43
    I woulden't stay in an abusive relationship even if I were pitbull ugly
    and knew I coulden't find anything better it just isen't worth it.
    
    -j
    

    I didn't mean to imply that staying in the relationship is the right
    thing to do.  It isn't.  All I meant to point out is that sometimes a
    low self esteem plays a big role in why people stick around when they
    know the relationship is unhealthy.  I am not speaking from
    experience... my husband and I are splitting up for entirely different
    reasons; however, I know of women who stay because it is better than
    being alone.  There a lot of women out there who are afraid to be
    alone, and would rather stick around with a man who can support them
    and take care of them.  They rationalize all the bad things as trivial
    as an excuse to remain in the relationship.
    
    I agree wholeheartedly that it is a waste of time, not to mention life,
    of which we are only given one to live to it's fullest.
    
    -Roberta
    

    Re .0
    
    I'd run before you find yourself dead. I'm serious. The way you
    describe things it sounds to me that if you do exert your independence
    he may flip. Who knows what could happen then.
    
    Well you asked for advice.
    
    Dave

A very easy way to stay in situations like that are to start out with 
a little shakyness in your self esteem and then be convinced by the punishment 
and reprimands from a person you really care about that you aren't much of a 
worthwhile human being, hence you don't feel like you have too much of a right 
to get out even though you have.....   it's no way easy... only when you can't 
kid yourself anymore that he's right and you're lousy and some faith in yourself
gets throuvgh can you walk away... 

Getting better even temporarily gives you a chance to hope after an unreal 
dream again... it never lasts though... 



Jo.
"one of the ones who got away (and is a far stronger person for it)"

    Hello everyone. I'm sorry it has taken me so long to respond. I got the
    transfer, and I've just been so busy. Things are really going good for
    me now, but you will all probably think I am just making excuses. I'm
    really not. I am well aware of what the problems are in our
    relationship. All of you have only heard one side of it though. 
    
    To you (I felt like this at times too) it looks as if he wanted me to
    rid  myself of my possessions (Car, House, Job, Friends etc). When he
    first asked me to move with him, the only reason he told me to quit my
    job was because he didn't want anything to stop us from moving. He was
    also probably trying to impress me by saying we wouldn't need my money.
    Since there was a  possibility that I wouldn't be working, we wanted to
    get rid of my extra bills. He already has 12 cars, he owns a car
    dealership, so we decided that  we could eliminate my car payment by
    selling my car. He then encouraged me to try to transfer with the
    company, and fully understood that I have a career and would loose a
    lot if I gave it up. He is happy that I got the transfer, so he never
    really wanted me to give up my  job, he just wanted to let me know that
    I could if I wanted to. It is up to me. I chose to keep it. As for my
    friends, he does not want me to give them up. We do spend a lot of time
    with my friends and with his friends. I admit, I do not see too much of
    my friends alone though. 
    
    Since my last note, I have been driving that red car. Maybe the problem
    with the windshield wipers was a real issue for him. He fixed them
    after I got upset, and I've had the car since. We really do get along
    good, and have a great time together. A lot of you worried that he
    might hurt me. The answer is NO. He is not a violent person, he has
    never even raised his voice to me.  He is very loving and gentle with
    me. 
    
    It has been a couple weeks now, and I have gone home every day after
    work.  Maybe he would get upset if I called and told him that I was
    meeting a friend, and wouldn't be home for dinner. I really don't know,
    and the maybe the reason I haven't tried it is because I don't want to
    know.  I go home every day and cook dinner, we eat, he does the dishes
    while I watch my soap. Then we go for a bike ride and for a swim. I
    like doing this, but I want to be sure that if I wanted to do something
    else, I could without worrying he'll be upset. 
    
    We have only had one problem in these two weeks. A friend of mine
    needed help with her mid term, so I told her she could stop by the
    house at 8:00 Monday night so I could help her. We always get back from
    our ride at 8:00. We like to swim laps in the pool after the bike ride,
    so we planned to ride our bikes 1/2 hour earlier so we would be back at
    7:30. So, I planned everything out I had to do when I got out of work.
    I went to work earlier, so I could leave earlier. When I got out of
    work I had to go to the grocery store, (I do the grocery  shopping on
    Monday). I paint my finger nails on Monday's too, so I planned to paint
    my nails after dinner while watching my soap. Everything was on
    schedule, and we left at 6:30 as planned. During our bike ride, a
    friend of his drove by and stopped. He asked my boyfriend to stop by
    his house on our way back and start his car up (My boyfriend sold it to
    him) and see if it sounded okay. My  boyfriend agreed. I understood,
    and didn't have a problem with it, but we still had to be home by 7:30
    if we were going to do laps in the pool before my friend got there at
    8:00.  So I suggested we cut the bike ride a little short, or we skip
    doing laps in the pool. (He is really into exercising). Either that, he
    could stop at his friends house, and I'd just keep going so I could
    meet my friend. Well, he got really upset that something was going to
    interfere with his bike ride, or he would have to do laps in the pool
    by himself. He said, if I hadn't watched my show and did my nails, we
    would have had plenty of time. This really upset me because he was
    blaming me saying I was at fault for  taking a half hour to do
    something for myself. I was mad and it showed. I told him that I
    planned everything out all day, including going to work earlier so
    nothing would interfere with is precious bike ride, and now I did
    something wrong because I painted my nails. He said, "Well obviously
    you didn't plan to well did you?" I told him that I did plan everything
    out good, but unfortunately while on our bike ride, something changed
    our plans, and now we have to make an extra stop by his friends house.
    Then he said "OH okay, it my fault". I told him it is no one's fault,
    we had a change in plans BIG DEAL, I didn't have a problem with it. He
    started to feel real bad and said he was sorry. We road for about 5
    more minutes and I said something else  about it. He said "Are you
    still dwelling on that, I said I was sorry what else do you want me to
    do?". I told him I just wanted him to NOT get upset at me for taking
    time to do things for myself once in a while. We cut the bike ride
    short, stopped by his friends house and were home to do laps before my
    friend got there. So, thanks to your notes, I have opened my eyes to
    the way he is, but I will not put up with it. 
    
    I will be staring my new job (and new life) in a month. I'm pretty
    certain that I am doing the right thing. He really isn't as bad as I
    must have made him seem to you. I really love this guy, and I know he
    loves me. I think a big part of the problem is the fact the I was
    always a totally independent  person, and now I am feeling dependent
    living in his house and driving his car. This is what I'm having a hard
    time getting use to. 
    
    It is impossible for me to express in words what a great guy he is, and
    how much in love we are with each other. He has the nicest way about
    him, every- one who meets him loves him. He does so many nice
    thoughtful things for me, and I really can't get enough of him. We
    enjoy being together so much. He has something really special about
    him. Maybe it is charisma, because it is more then just his VERY good
    looks. Everyone treats him with this certain respect like he is someone
    they are privileged to talk to. All his friends and acquaintances kind
    of idealize him. I noticed that my family and friends  even treat him
    like that. It really puzzles me. He is like a politician in a way.
    Everyone knows him where ever we go, and they all go out of their way
    to say hello. That is one reason why I want to keep this anonymous.
    Actually,  sometimes politicians will ask him to help them with their
    campaigns because he is so well known and respected. 
    
    Well, I think I've said enough. I would be curious to see how you all
    feel about his situation now. I want to thank all of you for trying to
    help.  I really do listen to everything you have to say.
    
    Thanks again.
    

    Dear Anon,
    
    Each new story you give us gives me even more cause to worry
    about you.  Even if he never lays a finger on you, he is emotionally
    abusing you; the only difference is that the scars are on the inside.
    
    Please consider seeing a counselor.  EAP through DEC is free.  If
    nothing else, the counselor will ask you questions which, when you
    answer them, will show you what you ought to do.
    
    
    					Steve

    
    	Anon, you are scheduling your life around what HE wants to do,
    	and afraid to say or do anything that might make him mad. Why
    	do you want to live like this? You deserve much more than that!
        Don't you ever just wish you could take off for the day to visit
    	friends and go shopping? (for example) When do you think you'll
    	ever be able to do that? He won't let you, or he'll make you 
    	sorry you did it. 
    
    	The red car is just a bribe to make sure you come home in time
    	to make dinner. He's got 12 cars and owns a dealership, do you
    	think giving you ONE car to drive is such a big sacrifice for
    	him?? Hardly! He'll keep dangling things like this in front of 
    	your nose. Maybe you'll start sticking up for yourself, and maybe
    	he'll dangle bigger bribes (sure, go visit your aunt for the 
    	weekend, honey), but sooner or later he will feel that you're
    	asking too much from him (didn't I give you a home, didn't I give
    	you a car to drive? Is this the way you show how grateful you are?)
    	and things will get ugly. 
    
    	DON'T let this man tell you you can't spend time on yourself, you
    	have to follow his schedule. I've been there and it DOES NOT get
    	any better. I also went through a period where I could list off all
    	his great qualities and convince myself that the bad times weren't
    	so bad, but the bad times overtook the good times and I almost lost
    	my life over it in the end. I hope it doesn't take something like
    	that to open your eyes. Trust what everyone else has already told you,
    	they only want to be sure you are okay. 
    
    	Go to EAP, they can help you understand your boyfriend and your 
    	relationship with him.    

        I feel as though I've been sucker-punched.
        One set of data indicates how "bad" this guy is.  The next set
    of data shows us he's a saint.  Somewhere in here is an interpretation
    that fits BOTH sets.
        I think you need to decide what you want.  I also think you 
    should start out by being truthful, showing character and having
    integrity.  Somehow some of these facets seem to be missing.
    
    Frederick
    

    re:.63
    
    Bingo.  The accounts are very confusing and seem contradictory from
    paragrpah to paragraph.
    
    Might as well flip a coin to decide which story to believe.

You guys just don't get it.   You aren't seeing two different stories, but
rather one story and one interpretation.  She is trying to believe that her
boyfriend is good and that she's the one with the problem, even though an
objective observer might come to the opposite conclusion.  This is all too
common in women who have been taught through life that they have no self-worth.

I applaud the noter for taking the steps to at least ask if her perceptions
are valid.  So many others just put up with it because they think that's the
way it's supposed to be.

				Steve

Well, I'm glad he's letting you drive the red car.  However, *you* seem to be 
doing most of the changing by not doing anything that would rock the boat.  He
does seem to be making some effort, but by "playing by the rules" I think 
you're asking for more of the same, not long-term change.  

I also hear you doing a lot to rationalize his actions.  I still think you 
deserve much more respect from him.  Even going only on the account in .60,
I would be worried.  Secretly, I still hope you'll choose to leave.  You
deserve *so* much better than to be this man's shadow...

Sorry if I'm being hard on you, Anon.  I'm only saying these things because
I care.  Please consider talking with a counselor about this relationship,
preferably *before* you move.

    Good luck.
    Sharon

    
    	Dear Anonymous,
    
    	Did you pick up the book I suggested, "Women who Love too much"
    by Robin Norwood and read it yet? Did you note that I suggested
    that for you? I didnt see any referance made to that in your last
    reply...
    	
    	If you're going to start standing up for yourself, as you imply,
    the book "Women who love too much" will be an invaluable asset to
    you - just for the knowledge it contains. It's pretty much all about
    what you're about to get into.
    
    	Please (you'll read this in the introduction) dont let yourself
    be put off by the title, or subject matters contained in it like
    "addiction" and "alcoholism" - there's much to learn and know, if 
    you can get past being offended by these words.
    
    	Joe

    Ahem.  *He* suddenly has to stop by a friend's, and therefore *you*
    didn't plan well?
    
    						Ann B.

    
    I can imagine his reaction if the found the book!
    
    
    Run away!
    bonnie

    Bravo Ann!  My sentiments exactly.  It's obvious to me that this man is
    not willing to be accountable for his actions.  *He* is the one who
    changed the plans, not you, and you ended up getting blamed, shamed and
    emotionally abused for *his* decision.  I'm glad you stood up for
    yourself *this time*, but what will happen next time?  Or the next, or
    the next, because there will be a next time.  You can count on it.
    
    I agree with Joe.  Go buy the book.  It may save your life in the long
    run and I'm not exaggerating.
    
    Karen

    Does the red car have prancing horse emblem?
    
    - Vikas

    I have only read your .60 reply, and the scenario with the bike ride
    sounds exactly like a replay of what went on in my relationship with my
    husband (we are now separated).  I had to plan out my day in order to
    get home and cook dinner for him; if it wasn't on the table when he got
    home from work he was upset.  I worked 40 hours too, and felt a lot of
    pressure in this area.  Like you, if I tried to explain to him that I
    just couldn't plan effectively and am feeling overwhelmed I'd get the
    EXACT SAME RESPONSE that you got -- "Oh, so it's MY fault." to try to
    make me feel bad.  To this day, he still doesn't see this as emotional
    abuse, although he came from an emotionally abusive family.  I got
    angry A LOT in our relationship, and it was always reactive anger, but
    he preferred to refer to me as a bitch.  It was easier than admitting
    he had a lot of problems communicating productively.
    
    I know how easy it is to explain all this away to others, and only
    focus on the good stuff.  I did that for years, and I thought when we
    separated I would fall apart emotionally, but I felt an overwhelming
    sense of relief.  Sure he has some wonderful qualities that I will
    miss, and we can still remain friends, but the only way we can
    reconcile is if major changes take place, and that might not be
    possible.
    
    Please think long and hard about your future.  We are only given one
    life; don't let someone else live it for you.
    
    -Roberta
    

    I am forced to wonder what Ms. Anon is looking for from the readers of
    this file it seems rather obvious that she is willing to make excuses
    for his actions. She also dosen't want to consider the advice given
    here nor does she believe those that say the relationship has some
    very unhealthy aspects.
    
    Reread .40 and  the questions listed at the bottom and determine
    which applys to you.
    
    -j(disgusted)
    
    

    Maybe the topic should be write locked?!

Why?  Just because some people choose to be rude?

		Steve

    re .76
    
    Who is being rude?  I see people being gut-level honest in here, not
    rude.
    
    Karen

Re: .77

Just because she is not adding lots of responses, that doesn't mean she is
not interested.  I corresponded with her as recently as last Friday and
she is still interested. 

			Steve

    People's reactions, good or bad, provide feedback.
    
    When you request honest reactions from people, you risk getting a
    reply or two that are unpleasant to read.  Honesty and truth have a
    price, and I don't think anyone here's being rude just for the sake
    of being rude.

Anon, I'll try not to be too harsh in my language, because I know 
what the heartache feels like when you're dazzled by somebody, 
but I have to add my voice to the chorus here.  PLEASE make plans 
to get out, and please DO NOT TELL HIM about those plans.  He 
sounds like a master manipulator (he already has you questioning 
your inner voice), and whether he's conscious of it or not, it's 
pretty clear that he's a "control freak".  I don't think he'll 
like it one little bit if he finds out that you are seriously 
contemplating leaving him, and I think he may make it very 
difficult for you even to *get out of the house* if he feels a 
threat of abandonment.

.0> In November, we got together....  In January, he asked me to
  > move to another state with him

OK, what's the big rush for him to want to (have to?) rupture off 
to a different state?  If he gets you into this other-state 
house, what's he doing with (who will he be keeping in...) the 
old house?  I know, the implications there are kind of a long 
shot.  But stranger things have happened, and he seems to need an 
immediate, irrevocable commitment from you about where you live.  
Why?

Money:

.0> He told me to quit my job and he would support me.  He said
  > he has so much money coming in every year, that neither one
  > of us would have to work.

  > He then said I should sell my car because he has a car for me 
    to drive                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    ^^^^^^^^

but later in the same paragraph

  > The reason for my selling the car was to get rid of the car
  > payment....  This way I could really pay off my bills

Then he liked the idea of your transfer, but since

  > my chances of... getting an open req were slim[,]... he said, 
  > well then we shouldn't move.  We need some income coming in.

Now he needs your income?  He has a dealership, twelve personal 
cars, two residences, rental property... and he needs your 
income?

Mind games:

.0> If I ask him how he feels about moving, he'll say you must 
  > not be sure or you wouldn't be asking.

He didn't answer you, did he?  He made it an opportunity to 
demand unconditional obedience.

.7> He said I couldn't drive it [the red car] because the 
  > windshield wipers don't work all the time.

.28> The brake lights have been on, on the truck for over a month 
   > now, and the windshield also leaks water on the driver's lap 
   > when it rains.

This guy owns a *dealership*?

.7> He said, obviously you are use to going out with your friends
  > after work, and you don't like the idea of coming home right 
  > after work, so you think of any excuse to do errands etc.... 
  > He said I hardly come home after work and I'd rather be with 
  > my friends.

Well at least he's not *paranoid*... much!

.7> When I try to talk to him, he accuses me of trying to start a 
  > fight, twists things around to the point that I did something
  > wrong

.28> I think the reason he refused to let me drive the red car on
   > Friday... was to punish me for going to my Aunts house.

.28> He said that he doesn't think I can handle having the 
   > responsibility to come home and have dinner with him.

.28> I told him that I actually felt afraid of him....  He said, 
   > "Well if you feel afraid, that is because you know you are 
   > doing something wrong."

IMO, one of the first steps in subjugating someone is instilling 
self-doubt and punishing normal behavior.

.28> one of his tenants left one of his apartments a mess when 
   > they moved, so I took a vacation day on Monday to clean the
   > apartment for him.

You WHAT??!  Does this Prince-of-a-guy, pillar-of-the-community
have you believing that mucking out his rental space is somehow 
your responsibility?  It's not your _job_, since jobs involve 
payment.  Somehow I doubt that you've been apportioned any of 
that rental income.

.28> Since he wouldn't let me drive the red car to work... I 
   > called a friend of mine who works with me, and asked him for 
   > a ride to work.  My boyfriend was upset.  He didn't want me 
   > to inconvenience someone

*I* think it was very inconvenient for your boyfriend to lose 
physical control of you.  It's not up to your boyfriend to decide 
whether giving you a lift was convenient for your friend--only 
your friend knows that.

.60> ...a friend of his... asked my boyfriend to stop by his 
   > house on our way back and start his car up... and see if it 
   > sounded okay.

Lemme get this straight.  Each of you has a bike.  Each of you 
knows the way home.  The car thing doesn't sound like an 
emergency (no blood or fire involved); it's parked in the 
friend's driveway.  What part of "no" doesn't your boyfriend 
understand?  He either looks at the car or he doesn't; he doesn't 
need you holding his hand in order to tell if a car sounds funny.

.60> Well, he got really upset that something was going to 
   > interfere with his bike ride, or he would have to do laps in 
   > the pool by himself.

POOR BABY!  Who agreed to listen to the car in the first place?

.28> When I got home on Friday... I went to change out of my work
   > clothes, and after he came up to me and gave me a kiss and 
   > said "You didn't even kiss me when you came home, and asked 
   > "Didn't you want to kiss me?"

Ooooh, now he's starting to demand ritualized behavior, and an
accounting for any deviation from that behavior.

Leopard Changes His Spots:

.28> He said, "Well if you feel afraid, that is because you know 
   > you are doing something wrong."  At that point I felt it was
   > hopeless.  He could tell... then he said, I really love you

.28> I told him... that is why it is going to hurt so much when I 
   > leave him....  He knew I was serious.  Anyway, he is finally 
   > listening to me

Oh yes, that will get his attention.  Short-term, his response is 
to gush his love [he *loves* you?  Does he *know* you?] and act 
very, very sorry; long term, he'll tighten the reins.  This is 
why I would make plans (not dreams, real plans with a real, 
do-able target date) to get OUT.  Line up a roommate, line up an 
apartment, and do NOT tip him off.  Move in the middle of the day 
or whenever he's going to be out, for sure, for several hours; 
don't give him your number, your address, or *any opportunity to 
get you alone* after you move.

.60> He said "Are you still dwelling on that, I said I was sorry
   > what else do you want me to do?"

By now you know what *I* would say.  "Get a LIFE and stop trying 
to control MINE."

_Maybe_ his behavior won't progress any further.  But even if it 
doesn't, I think you need to ask yourself if you really need that 
knot in your stomach, if you like having to "sneak" your soaps, 
if you're content having to beg for the use of one from a fleet 
of poorly-maintained vehicles, if it makes you warm & fuzzy being 
required to report to dinner at the house daily at 5:00.  I don't 
just think about your situation when ol' 1278 pops up as the Next 
Unseen, and I bet a lot of our fellow noters worry about you on 
their non-noting time too.

Leslie          

    
    First, Leslie that was one powerful note!
    
    Anon,
    
    	Leslie's right about not just thinking about you when this note
    rolls around.  I usually only read HR on a hit-or-miss basis.  Since
    this note has started, I'm in here two or three times a day.
    
    	I understand that you don't think we know the "whole" story or that
    you're not explaining it so we understand.
    
    	I've been in many relationships....some healthy and most very
    unhealthy.  None has been as unhealthy as what I have read here.  What
    you have IS NOT how a relationship is supposed to be.  A relationship
    is supposed to be a 2 way street, a sharing.  What you've got is a
    give/take relationship......you give, he takes.  On rare occasions he
    rewards you....like a pat on the head for a good puppy.
    
    	There are people and places that will help.  I would strongly
    recommend that you print out your notes here, get yourself to EAP with
    them, let the EAP counselor read what you wrote, and then LISTEN to
    what the professional has to say.
    
    	I care, and I d*mn worried that something bad is going to happen to
    you.
    
    Faith
    

    Hi. I just want to let you all know that I called printed out these
    notes and called EAP to talk to someone. They are going to call me back
    if they can get me an appointment before I move in two weeks. I'll let
    you know fi they are able to schedule something, and what happens if
    they do.
    
    Thanks again.
    

    Great!  Good move....  Congrats on calling EAP!  

    
    	Anon: Bravo!
    
    	Joe

    
    Anon,
    
    	Congratulations.  It is a big step to take but one well worth
    taking.  
    
    Faith
    

    
    Yippee for you!
    
    keep in touch
    bonnie

Anon, you might also want to see WOMMANNOTES-V4, note 424.133.

Press KP7 to add this to your notebook.

    Hi everyone. I was able to talk to EAP, actually I talked to 2
    different people. I am moving this week, so I will not have time to
    talk to them again, but they did give me a number to call when I got
    where I am going. It did help talking to them, there message was to
    basically make this move with him now that it is too late for me to
    turn it around because of my job commitment, but do not stay with him
    if things don't change. It was also suggested for me to push back and
    see his reaction. He does not yell at me or get violent, or come right
    out and tell me he doesn't like what I did, he does it in different
    ways that I can not explain. Anyway, what ever it is that he does, I
    obviously am going to extremes to avoid,  therefore I am making
    sacrifices and letting him control me. So, I have to first get over
    this feeling, and not let him have this affect on me, and try to work
    it out.
    
    It actually worked pretty good this weekend. Friday I left work a
    little early and went to my sisters house. I knew he would be upset,
    because if I'm not working 'at work' I should be working at home, we
    have a lot to do. But... I am also saying goodbye to my friends and
    relatives, so I decided I was going to go to my sisters house anyway.
    (I mean, I am not even having a going away party from work, because he
    said, if I think I have time for that, then it is not his fault if we
    don't make it where we are going in time.) I stayed for a few hours, we
    talked and 'relaxed', then it was 5:00, and I left. I got home at 5:30,
    he was still in the shop. Usually he'll come in at 5:00, but since I
    wasn't home he didn't. So I called him (his shop is in the yard) and
    just acted real nice and happy to talk to him as if I didn't do
    anything wrong. I said, "Hi, your still working? I just went to my
    sisters house. When are you coming in? I'll come out there with you".
    So I hung up, went outside and even  though I could hear the edge in
    his voice, and he said he was starving and hoped I cooked something, I
    just acted real cheerful, and finally he started to act normal and nice
    too. So, it worked. The rest of the weekend went good, except for last
    night, and now I'm real mad. 
    
    We are leaving soon, so we had to pack everything in his house. Early
    yesterday morning, we started packing the kitchen. We packed and packed
    all day. When I woke up yesterday  morning, I had either a urinary
    track infection, or a bladder infection. What ever it is, I am in a 
    lot of pain now. My lower stomach, back, and legs all hurt. Since it
    was a Sunday, the Dr. just called in a prescription for me and I'm
    drinking cranberry juice. Well, it feels better when I lay down, so all
    day I was looking forward to when we went to bed. We would not be able
    to  'be affectionate' which is a requirement every night even if I'm
    tired.  But, I was just looking forward to laying down, and relaxing
    with him. We always go to bed at the same time. 
    
    His son called him, who lives in the same town we are moving to, and 
    offered to pick us up at the airport when we arrive. He said he would
    call him back, because he might not have room in his car for all our
    luggage and my two cats. Then my very good friend called me and said
    that she was going to be in that town and could pick us up at the air
    port, and asked if she could spend the night, and she would leave 
    early the next morning. I told her we would be unpacking and she under-
    stood. Well, my boyfriend did not understand, so I had to call her 
    back and tell her she could not stay with us. She would get in our way
    while we are unpacking our clothes. I said, she could help us because
    your son does not have room in his car. He said his son was going to
    borrow the company van. That's not what he told me before.
    
    I went to get ready for bed, it was about 10:00. I said, well, I'm
    really tired and want to go to bed, so what does he do? He decides to
    stay up and watch TV. Why should he come to bed with me if I'm sick and
    can't do anything for him. So, after about a half hour, I was getting
    real mad because I knew he was doing this just to be  mean, so I got up
    and I told him that I knew what he was doing. I said, "Every night we
    go to bed together, but tonight, just because I can't do anything, you
    won't come to bed with me!!" He never would start watching TV at 10:00
    at night. He said, "No, that's not why, I just feel like watching TV.
    You really have a problem". Boom. I fell asleep after 11:30, and he
    still had not come to bed. Then when  my alarm went off in the morning,
    he got up and went to the bathroom, and when he came back to bed, he
    didn't hug me or anything. He pretended to be sleeping. 
    
    He was up when I was leaving, and he helped me bring the terminal into
    the car. He asked if I was going to kiss him good bye, I did and I
    left. Now, is this a normal type fight people get into? Why am I still
    totally p*ssed off. Is he right, do I really have a problem? 
    
    This is probably my last note, I may not be able to log in again until
    after I start my new job. I'll be real busy then though. But I will log
    on as soon as I can. Thank you so much for your support and advise. 
    

Now *I* have a knot in my stomach.

Best of luck in the move, and I really hope to see you back in Notes soon.

Leslie

    
    I wish you could see inside my head.
    I'm crying for you.
    
    -Jody
    

    Yeah, me too.  I'm very concerned for you.
    
    Karen

    reply .90

      
    		Dear anon, I have read this entire string and the worse
    things get the more I understand. Having sex is a daily requirement?
    I'm sorry but I think that this person is a control freak. Something I
    know alot about, since I use to be one myself. I think you've made a 
    big mistake putting up with him for as long as you have. Are you really
    attracted to him or his possessions? It just seems that each time you
    write here I see you loosing more of yourself to him.  
                                       
    		If it isn't too late to turn back and return to what you
    left, I'd do it quickly. Before you loose your identity completely to
    him. What I've read frightens me, he is really screwing you up
    psychologically. That is what I see from reading what you've written.
    He's always trying to make you out to be the bad one. 
    
    		I'd want to say best of luck, but it seems the cards are
    falling in the direction that he's planning. 
    
    	-Brian

    
    	Anon - 
    
    		my stomach flipped when you said he told you YOU have
    	the problem. Then it twisted when you asked if we think you 
    	might have a problem. I was there, I lived it for two years,
    	and it doesn't get better. I wish you could see it now, but
    	no one can make you see it if you don't want to. Little by little
    	you will be swallowed up by this man and his psychosis, and one
    	day you will wake up and realize that you are not the person you
    	used to be, you're what he has made you. It will probably take 
    	a lot longer than if you had not moved, because your new friends
    	and co-workers won't know the old you, they won't be able to 
    	tell you've changed. 
    
    		I don't remember where I read this phrase, but you 
    	should memorize it - "If someone tells you you're a chair,
    	does that make you a chair?". No. If he tells you you have
    	the problem, does that mean that you do? NO. 
    
    		Good luck.  

    Good reply, Sherry, especially the part about the new friends and
    co-workers not knowing the old you, just the new.
    
    No relationship is worth the sacrifices you are making, and no one
    should have to feel like they are walking on eggshells wondering if
    what they are doing or saying will cause a negative reaction in their
    partner.  Is he really worth the emotional trauma you are experiencing? 
    HE is the one with a problem (and more than one at that); however, low
    self-esteem is causing him to twist things around so that YOU look like
    the bad guy, and he comes up smelling like a rose.
    
    Please give a lot of thought as to whether or not you want to spend the
    rest of your life with this man, much less have a child with him!
    

    Anon, I have lived a similar relationship and it took me a long time
    before I realized how much emotional destruction had occured to my self
    esteem.  It took lots of soul searching, counselling, tears and bitter
    words to face what needed to be done which was end it.  But the one
    thing that finally pushed me to make the decision was a question I
    asked myself.....If I stayed in this relationship where would I be in
    five years?  The answer that came to me was that I'd either be totally
    beaten down and just a shell of a person or I'd be dead.  Please, ask
    yourself this same question.  It's not easy to do.  It was 10 years ago
    that I anwered that question, and I'm alot happier, have wonderful
    friends and a full life that I can call my own.
    
    Best of luck to you.
    
    P.
    

    
    All I can do is offer some prayers for you, anon.
    
    The bit about the going to bed really bothered me.  All I could think
    of was the time a guy took me out to dinner then tried to tell me I
    "owed" him sex because he had taken me out to dinner.  &*^%&(*  I don't
    own anyone anything, especially sex!
    
    

    
    A relationship based on love encourages you to live in an environment,
    a world, a self-designed life-structure, that is inherently *SAFE*.
    
    It sounds like the world you move towards is one that is laden with
    fear - of what you *do* know, and what you *don't* - what you think his
    reaction *may* be, and what his reaction occurs as that you hadn't even
    dreamt or anticipated.  This relationship is a flailing animal, and you
    are riding on the tip of the tail.  Please take care of yourself,
    please save yourself.  You deserve love that takes you completely as
    the wonderful person you are - the whole, caring, needing, breathing,
    becoming person you are.  All growth that will be yours should fit in
    with the growth of a relationship - this relationship sounds like it
    offers you *no* room for personal growth, for personal discovery.
    
    
    -Jody
    

             The Mystery of Uncertainty


             One day I decided to walk 
             I really wanted to run
             but forced courage made me
             hold a steady constant path
             
             Along this road I have known
             such beauty....
             The colors of spring flowers
             The sweet smell of new grass
             The simple song of a bird
             Small treasures that deliver
             me serenity and inner peace
             I feel sure my decision to walk 
             was the right choice
             but suddenly....
            
             The road forks
             I fail to see beyond the bend
             The uncertainty makes me
             anxious...
             I start to go down one path
             Then suddenly I turn and run
             for the unknown comfort
             of the other

             All is suddenly dark and foreboding
             This adds to my confusion
             I must choose
             
             I sit on the cold hard ground
             It's Autumn you know
             I say a prayer 
             Begging for guidance ...  a small sign
             I scrutinize my surroundings
             but no sign is given
             I take out my tarot
             Yes perhaps a kind spirit 
             will dance upon my cards and
             maybe...just maybe
             tell me which way to go

             But my readings only show me
             more confusion 
             The Tower...
             The Devil...
             The Lovers...
             The Fool...
             The winds come and blow apart my cross
             The cards fly around
             in a mystic breeze
             Seeming to mock me in silent laughter

             Go your own way
             no stay please stay
             Go right
             Go left
             Go back
             Forge a new path

             This multitude of choices alarms me
             what to do 
             where to go
             No one will tell me
             The ultimate choice is mine
             You see no matter which road I venture
             never seen shadows will come to call
             Ghost of old lovers will cry from
             the grave 
             like the willi's of Gizelle they
             will haunt me
             
             What if I take this less traveled path
             could I possibly fail
             does anyone really fail?
             Only one who remains in this hellish complacency
             fails 
             because they loose time
             They loose sight of dreams
             and they loose themselves
             A sacrifice to their uncertainty

    
    		-B

    Others here have said it, but it's flashing like a red light - 
    *control* *freak*. He doesn't want a real person, an individual
    with a mind of her own, her own interests, her own tastes. He
    wants a _convenience_ with the outward attributes of a woman. 
    To him, you're a convenient cook, companion, exercise partner,
    grocery shopper, and a convenient source of sex. Ask yourself, 
    is that what you want to be? 
    
    In any relationship there are conflicts where what one person 
    wants simply isn't convenient for the other. Some negotiate, 
    others manipulate. Real negotiation can only happen after 
    individual wants, and the resulting conflicts, are out in the
    open. Your wants sometimes conflict with his. You don't openly
    acknowledge this, he doesn't openly deal with it. If you want him 
    to negotiate, you, and he, will have to acknowledge the conflicts
    and agree to deal with it in an open give-and-take. 
    
    If the good aspects of the relationship make it worthwhile, if
    you think he really can deal with you as a person, an individual,
    then he has to stop treating you as a convenience. And you have to
    hold him to that.

    I'm going to go way out on a limb here, but I really do believe this. 
    Him not coming to bed with you because you have a UTI is sexual abuse. 
    It's sending a very clear message that you are valued for sex only and
    if you can't provide it, then what's the point?
    
    I understand the anger you have around him not coming to bed with you
    at the same time.  It's valid and it's real.  He is abusing you. 
    
    I hope you leave him soon.
    
    Karen

.103> I'm going to go way out on a limb here, but I really do believe this. 
.103> Him not coming to bed with you because you have a UTI is sexual abuse. 
    
    And if he does come to bed, it's incest, since he's in a position
    of control over her.
    
    Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

    Re:  Anon.


    	A few weeks ago I came across an article in a local newspaper which
    gave the warning signs for manipulative/abusive relationships.  Your
    relationship, in my opinion, is the ideal example for what this article
    was about.


    	I almost brought it in, but given how busy I am lately, and how so
    much has been said here already (much of it seems to have gone
    unheeded), I wasn't terribly motivated to take the time to type it in.


    	Your SO accused you of having a problem.  I'm going to go against
    the grain of what most people seem to be saying here and say that I
    agree with him 100 percent.  In my opinion, if someone exists in an
    environment which is not only unhealthy but downright dangerous, that's
    a problem.  That they deceive themselves, and try to deceive others
    about the true nature of the situation is an even bigger problem.  By
    continuing with the situation as is you are enabling and encouraging
    him to continue his abusive behavior.


    	There are so many issues going on here I don't think I can sort
    them out into anything that makes sense.  One thing that occurs to me
    is that while you are able to relate various examples of things, I
    don't remember you *analyzing* those situations to see what they mean.
    People *always* do things for a reason; you may not see the reason, or
    if you do you may not understand it, but there is almost always a good
    reason for the things that we do.  It wouldn't hurt for you to try to
    understand what's going on when things happen.  If you do this, I think
    the true nature of your situation will become more clear.


    	He has many problems I would guess from what you've said.  However,
    to focus on the problems of others as a way of getting around the fact
    that WE too have issues is non-productive.  I'm going to be blatantly
    honest and say what I think, since that's what you asked for (a danger
    when you ask a question):  it would appear to me that you have some
    basic insecurities, perhaps low self-esteem.  Why else would someone
    stay in a situation that isn't good for them -- because they believe
    this is it, nothing better exists for them.  Whatever the reason, it's
    definitely a problem.


    	Get out, while you still can and while you still retain some shred
    of your identity.  The longer you wait, the less of yourself there'll
    be.


    	I wish you the best.



    Brian

    	Re: Anon,
        
    	Again, I'll recommend reading the book "Women who love too much"
    by Robin Norwood. It contains all the experience, strength and hope 
    anyone in a situation such as you describe could ever need - from
    a book.
    
    	Your last entry sorta proved beyond much doubt (in my book)
    that you are a virtual prisoner of this man's emotional blackmailing 
    and manipulations. However, it is my firm belief that the people
    at EAP are thouroughly knowledgable and will not let you stay
    imprisoned through this relationship. Unless of course, that's what 
    you want. No one can help another person who wants to stay sick.
    
    	What I mean is, you did go to EAP which says to me that you
    *dont* want to stay emotionally sick. You do want to keep your 
    relationship with this man however (as evidence by the tenacity with 
    which you resist all suggestion of leaving him). I wish to say that 
    it *is* possible to have both. I wont give odds on that happening, 
    because I dont know them and I wouldnt want to be dis-couraging.
    
    	I will give the facts however. To have both, you will have to
    continue on the path of getting help from EAP, learning about the
    stuff people are talking about in reply here by reading books like 
    the one I've suggested and doing other things. The chance that you
    yourself keep this up and see it through is some number up to 100%
    chance.
    
    	Now, there's your relationship partner. In order to "have both", 
    that is, your emotional health and the relationship, your partner will 
    have to get himself on the path of getting help from EAP, learning
    about the stuff people are talking about in here by reading books 
    like the one I've suggested and doing other things. The chance that
    he will keep this up and see it through - because this is what he
    trully wants to do, because he values being an emotionally healthy
    person and sharing that in a relationship with *you* - is some number 
    up to 100% chance.
    
    	Take the two percentages, multiply them together as fractions,
    and you'll have the probability of having emotional health for yourself
    *and* the relationship you wish to keep.
    
    	A couple examples. Half measures on both your parts. Gives you
    a 1 in 4 chance. You do everything perfectly, he's half hearted about
    it. A 1 in 2 chance. You do everything perfectly, he doesnt want
    to have anything to do with it at all, thinks it's all "bullsh*t"?
    *Zero chance*. This is part of the reason why people are telling you 
    to get yourself out and away from this guy, because your success with
    having both, what you seem to so desperately want, is completely
    dependant on what he does. By what he's now doing, one could "judge"
    that the chance is quite, well...slim. But who, really, can say what
    will happen with absolute certainty for the future? No one can.
    We can only speak in the context of likelyhood.
    
    	Joe
    
    	

    DITTO!
    

    re: .107, .108
    
          Good examples of why sympathy cannot last more than
    about ten minutes.  Eventually, sympathizers resent being held
    captive to those feelings.  This is why it is important to
    move into compassion (caring, etc.) and to notice that having
    compassion for self/others is far more valuable than sympathy.
    "I feel so sorry for you" smacks of arrogance (it's likely to 
    be seen as a 'better than.')  "I care about you" respects own's
    own feelings and yet honors another's.
    
    Frederick
    

...and when someone's busy convincing you you're wrong and it's someone who's
important in your life and sees a lot of you therefore has a lot of opportunity 
to re-enforce this belief it's very very hard to pull back, admit you might not
have judged right to start with and believe those feelings and friends who tell 
you you're deepest fears are right and the situation is seriously bad news.

Some of us still care, and are concerned, and always hold a hope that a 
situation may be helped by this however far away or however much a stranger 
in some ways we may be.  In some ways we aren't quite such strangers, alot of 
us, by the sounds of things have lived to come out the other side of similar 
situations and to know that it is far from easy.  Sad, draws on the heart-strings
and can hurt when you relate to it? yes, pathetic? no.  With no intention of 
being judgemental that reaction sounds more like anger at the frustration
felt by not being able to *fix* it.

    Story continued in note 1312.

		Steve