Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    
    	Learning to Whistle might help you. Not with the fingers, the
    plain 'ol Mitch Miller kind. Maybe learning to play the Harmonica 
    might help in the same way.
    
    	Seriously...Just make sure your tunes come from the heart.
    
    	Joe

    Re .0: Was your osculatory relationship always this way, or did the
    turning-away begin after some key event - say, the first kiss from Mr.
    Kiss-Him-All-Day?
    
    You might ask your wife if she can _demonstrate_ what she likes, since
    she says she can't describe it. (This should be in the nature of a game
    rather than a practical exam; lots of giggling and "oops, no, the other
    way" should be part of the process. However, if she shows reluctance to
    try this, you may have more serious problems to deal with than mere
    technique...)
    
    -b

    "When he kissed me, I felt it in my KNEES!  He must practice on
     melons or something ..."
    
    					Annie Potts, in Pretty in Pink

    
    Well there is obviously more to it than just sticking your tongue into
    somebody's mouth and wagging it around. I would second the suggest to
    have her show you how she wants to be kissed.
    Failing that, I suggest this; there is more to a mouth than just
    tongues, slow down, explore it all a little bit. The gums, teeth, under
    the tongue, everywhere. It all is a different experiance and each part
    generates its own unique sensation. Also watch the amount of pressure
    your putting on the lips. Heavy, ravaging kisses are good sometimes, but
    not always. Just like a swimsuit leaves enough to the imagination to
    make it sexy, so does a lightly placed kiss.
    
    Remember, the tongue is a muscle, and like any other muscle in your
    body, must be exercised to be good at what it is doing. Sunflower seeds
    are a good way to practice limbering that sucker up without people
    thinking your weird. Pop a few in your mouth, shell and all, shell
    them, eat them, and store the shell on the side of your mouth. This is
    a real easy way to teach that ol tongue how to work its way around just
    about anything!
    
    TC
    

    hey have you ever tried to kiss with out involving your tongue
    in someone elses mouth.  How about trying this.  Try kissing her with
    your lips slightly closed and nibbling lightly on her bottom lip
    and moving on from there.  I know that when someone nibbles on my
    lip while kissing it just brings me to my knees.
    __SH
    

    
    Nibbling and "tickling" (with your tongue) are good.  Very good......
    
    
    

    
    I would suggest that for the moment you not worry about technique.
    The unfortunate thing about kissing is that it is not a definable
    process.  In a "c" program, there is a definite sequence with maybe
    a couple of optional paths to the exit() statement.  Kissing is
    different.  I think you should think about kissing as an extention of
    your emotions.  If you think she's very sweet at the moment then kiss
    her like she's a sweet fruit that you're tasting.  If on the other
    hand, this is a very sexually charged situation then let out that
    animal side otherwise known as passion.  It's a bit more like biting
    into an apple than eating a peach.  Rougher and more intense.  (but
    leave the teeth out of it for the moment - that takes experience.)
    
    (boy what an embarrassing thing to describe)
    

    Something just doesn't seem right here.  If your wife turns away when
    you attempt to kiss her I think the problem is likely to be much more
    serious than your kissing technique.

    
    	My first reply to this was to help you out with what you percieve
    as a inadequacy of some sort - a shortcoming you have. I do not
    wish to invalidate your feelings about it, rather, I'd like to explore 
    just how you arrived to feeling this way.
    
    	Your wife rejects your advances (i.e. "turns her head"), tells
    you of how she "could" be physically intimate with another man for
    sustained periods (i.e. "all day") and has apparently admitted to
    taking part in an action most would consider *totally inappropriate* 
    for a married person; "HE did it" (i.e. to me).
    
    	I realize some marriages are more "open" than others; it's okay
    between the married couple for each of them to, er, "take on" others
    from time to time. Is this your situation? Do *you* feel that it's
    appropriate for your wife to be "making out" with some other man?
    If you feel that it's wrong for her to have done this, would you
    be able to stand up to her with an assertion that *she's* simply
    wrong, wrong, wrong in this matter?
    
    	What I'm getting at is that there's NOTHING WRONG WITH YOU!
    This isnt about some "deficiency" or "shortcoming" of *yours*, that
    if you can somehow "perform better", if you can "get it right", all
    will be well. For Gods's sakes, two 12 year olds can get kissing
    right, if both are willing to explore a little. This is more about
    your marriage and what's going on with your wife that she's rejecting
    you and hurting you and she's apparently been dis-functional enough
    to take action outside of the marriage to satisfy her needs - or to 
    be able to even indicate she having a problem of some sort.
    
    	A fully functional and emotionally healthy person, operating 
    within the context of marriage, has comitted to maintaining a clear 
    communication with their partner and to work out any and all problems 
    they may have - *with* their partner! They dont beat up their partner 
    emotionally; get 'em to a point where they feel totally inadequate 
    and then slam their trust into the ground by openly admitting they
    "cheated" on them!! That's the behavior of a rather sick person,
    one who isnt functionally healthy enough to even be in a marriage, IMHO.
    
    	Instead of feeling "inadequate", I can easily imagine instead
    feeling *violated*. You'd have every right to feel that way,
    considering what she's done to you. If this woman doesnt like the
    way you kiss, why did she *marry you*? You might consider telling
    her to either shape up regarding what marriage means, or get the
    h*ll out of it. There's plenty of others out there in this world 
    who'd be _glad_ to work with you on *whatever* issues may come up, 
    in a comitted monagamous relationship called "marriage". There's
    nothing "wrong" with you, that I can see, and you should know that.
    
    	Hope this helps,
    
    	Joe
    
    	

    there is nothing more gross than "wet" kisses where you are drenched in
    spit.  I know that is really crude, but most of the guys I have met
    kiss like that until "trained".  It is awful.  Even my husband is
    slowly digressing from nice kisses to gross wet kisses so I'll have to
    "train" him back!
    
    Tammi

    Ah, I've reread the base note and wonder if some of us aren't jumping
    to conclusions?  The base noter will have to clarify if, in fact, the
    other man who could kiss so well was pre-marriage or a post-marriage
    affair.
    
    I read the base note in the former way; others have obviously read it
    the latter.
    
    Karen

    Bravo .10!!!! Nothing worse than smooching and needing a roll of Bounty
    to sop up the extra...

    re: .11 
    
         I agree.  Joe was over-reacting, it seems to me.  
    
         You *can* learn techniques, unquestionably.  Similar to 
    me in my massage experience.  I originally (back in 1979) went
    to massage school to be a more competent lover.  I know, I know,
    I feel a little embarassed to say so, but what the heck.  It's the
    truth.  I felt that I had been inadequate with my wife and that 
    perhaps if I had been a better lover she wouldn't have left me.
    So, I thought about it a lot and the conclusion I reached was that
    going to massage school would virtually ensure me that "no other
    man would touch better."  Well, parts of this are valid, and other
    parts of this are "horse pucky."  My love-making had not been 
    bad; my wife left me for other reasons.  My feelings of inadequacy
    were what I had to contend with, not my love-making.
        In the ensuing 13 years, I've learned a great deal.  ;-)
    Anyway, the point is that I feel that my touch techniques have been
    extremely helpful and useful in romantic situations.  But there has
    yet been a romantic relationship in my life that has survived using
    *only* touching skills.  Relationships are far more complex or
    intricate than that.  What is especially true is how many women I
    have met who have told me that various other men in there lives are
    "mechanically great" (that is, they know sexual techniques, etc.) but
    are lousy lovers anyway.  Watch a porno film sometime.  Some of those
    films depict very mechanical acts of sex.  Most women I've known don't
    relate to that very well.  On the other hand, the sexual mastery has
    never been as important to them as the connection, the intimacy, the
    communication at the soul-level.  Lots of men don't want to admit it
    and lots of other men are reluctant to look, but usually most men will
    discover that this criteria holds up for them, too.  In other words,
    usually the best relationships are not the ones with the best sex but
    rather the ones with the closest intimacy.
        How this relates to the question at hand, that is, kissing, to me
    is as follows.  Yes, definitely look at your kissing style.  Different
    people need to find whatever comes together for them--uniquely.  Doing
    what someone else does is not likely to work for you.  Are your lips
    rigid or extremely pliable and soft?   Is your mouth dry or wet?  Are
    you pressing too hard or not hard enough?  Are you totally covering 
    your partner's mouth or not covering enough?  Is your mouth a giant
    cavern or an impenetrable fortress?  
        But the most important thing, in my view, is, where is your heart
    in all of this?  How connected do you feel?  How much do you love that
    person and how much do you want to please them?  How open are you to
    receiving from them whatever gift of love they are offering you?
    How vulnerable are you allowing yourself to be?  How strong is the
    intimacy in the bond between you--can you share and communicate
    honestly (tactfully) and openly?
        You will probably find that, as Joe might have suggested instead
    of indicated, that there are some other issues between you other than
    kissing technique.  If you are determined, you can work this out.
    At the least, you can recover your own self-esteem and self-respect
    and make other decisions in regards to the union you have currently
    chosen.
    
    Frederick
    

    
    
    I think it may be unfair to jump all over his wife for expressing
    her dissatisfaction.  After all, you must first identify a problem
    before fixing it.  In addition, his kissing may have changed since
    when they were dating.   I firmly believe that line from the song
    "you can feel it in his kiss".  So, if one is feeling distant from
    one's partner or trying to not be vulnerable to ones partner, then
    one's kiss would reflect that : ie the impenatrable fortress mouth
    mentioned earlier.  It is so important for passion to stay alive in
    a relationship so I think this issue is worth investing alot of
    energy in.
    
    An odd question which seems to fit in this string : do men out
    there think that french kissing is phalic and that the woman's
    tongue should therefore not leave her mouth?  Is this move considered
    discustingly aggressive?  (thanks for any answers on this.)
    
    

    re: .14
    
>    An odd question which seems to fit in this string : do men out
>    there think that french kissing is phalic and that the woman's
>    tongue should therefore not leave her mouth?  Is this move considered
>    discustingly aggressive?  (thanks for any answers on this.)
    
    I disagree on both points.  Did some guy actually tell you this?
    

    
    >Did some guy actually tell you this?
    
    yes, he told me I was not feminine for attempting to kiss him with
    anything more than with very tip of my tongue.  That's why I'm
    curious if this is normal or if this man is homophobic.
    
    thanks for the answer
    
    
    

    re -1:  homophobic?  Naah -- A total dork?  Yeah, that's it!

    re: .16 
    
          You should work at being a *person* first, and not worry
    about gender roles.  What someone did to you (as they have done
    to all of us all over the place) is to attempt to identify you
    and your role by your gender.  
         If you feel it, express it--just
    be appropriate and honest.  There is no "proper" place for a 
    man's tongue versus a woman's tongue.  There just is...
    Clearly the genitals limit us to certain "genital placements"
    ;-}, but the tongue, contrary to what books such as "Candy" might
    toy with, is not defined by gender limitations.  
        
    Frederick
    

    re: .16
    
    I don't know if I'd go so far as to deduce that the man in question
    is homophobic, but I do disagree strongly with his opinion.
    
    If I were french kissing a woman and noticed that she responded
    only with the tip of her tongue I'd wonder if she felt my actions
    were too intrusive or aggressive in that particular situation
    and would probably back off to approximate her level of response.

    
    maybe I missed something in the discussion.  Has he asked her for
    feedback and coaching on how to kiss in a way that invites her to ask
    for what she wishes?  Has she given this feedback and have they tried
    to work on it?  I've met some kissers with *really* loose mouths (like
    dead fish - ick!), and some kissers who use *too* much tongue, but if I
    was really committed to being in a relationship with them I'd express
    to them what didn't work for me, and we'd hopefully be able to work on
    it til it did.  Has this happened yet?
    
    -Jody
    

    Kissin is a very intimate thing - perhaps more intimate even than sex?
    
    I have heard that prostitues will not kiss clients for example..
    
    In my experience, when a relationship is going downhill the first thing
    that stops is the kissing, probably before the sex.
    
    It is a very cruel and hurtful thing to compare a current partner with
    a previous one on such a sensitive issue.  I would question a
    relationship where one partner can be so insensitive.
    
    It sounds to me like she is deliberately trying to hurt you - or is she
    feeling guilty, or wanting to split up, and is trying to push you into
    reacting - maybe she feels you are too "soft" and is trying to provoke
    a reaction.
    
    Maybe there IS something about your kissing she doesn't like, but she
    should be talking to YOU about YOU, not about some other person.
    
    If I were you I wouldn't worry about your technique, as others have
    said here - find out what is behind her cruelty.
    
    
    Xtine
                  

    Dont worry about being inadequate.....just do it and have fun!!! 
    Ask her why she turns her head. Some people dont like to 'make out',
    maybe a past experience?
    
    

    Some things to avoid.
    
    1. Do not lick her face.
    
    2. Do not blow into her mouth to get her to make a raspberry.
    
    3. Do not suck the air out of her mouth to get her to snort.
    
    4. Do not bite her tongue.

    re-.1
    
    Passing her your gum is usually a bad idea too. 8^)
    
    -j

    Likewise, anything the consistency of gum ...

    ...but on the other hand, if ecstasy is part of your idea of fun,
    then, when you find that person whose mouth stratospherically propels
    your emotions into realms perhaps previously unattainable, notice
    the union, notice the chemistry, notice the kaleidoscopic entertwining
    of souls as passions reach inward into depths unfathomable.  There
    comes a bonding so magnetic that it seems almost impossible to
    separate.  The surrounding world disappears and the greatest importance
    is that which tingles all the sensory endings of the anatomy which
    is pressing into and exploring the analagous portions of the other's.
    The prime directive screams, "More, more, more!" as the fusing and
    fission lead to yet another level of fusion.  Two mouths, matched
    in passion, can explode and implode into a delight so strong that
    almost nothing seems to want to supercede it.  If and when and however
    often it happens that the equally motivated and empassioned mouth
    finds yours, prepare yourself for a sensory smorgasbord of rabid,
    hedonistic ecstasy synergistically building into a frenzy of love.
    
    When it happens, there isn't a whole lot that compares to it.
    Going beyond isn't anathema, of course, but neither is it compulsory.
    
    
    Frederick
    

    
    A kiss, accompanied by the proper chemistry, can easily yield that
    hormonal sweep in 10 seconds or less.
    
    re: .26  - Bravo, well captured!
    
    -Jody

    
    re: .26 - oh my.  You MUST be a writer.
    
    Rachael
    

    re: .27, .28
    
         Thanks.  It was fun to write because I had to remember what a few
    of those passionate moments had been like...and how I wish that they
    had continued.  (And, parenthetically, how I wish I had them available
    to me now.   ;-}  )
    
    Frederick
    

    
    
    .26 
    	I just finshed your note.....sigh-h-h-h-h-h!...guys, are you out
    	listening (reading) this.....}-)...it would melt a heart (lips,too)
    	of stone!!!
    
    	THANK YOU!