Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    I see two issues ...

    a) why you said it in the first place.
    b) 'forgiveness'


    If you can get to understand why you publicly joked/complained	
    about lack of sex ('violated' your shared privacy?), and then
    communicate that to her and work through _that_ with her, you both
    _might_ find that the apology/forgiveness is of modest consequence.

    Hi Your lucky she did not leave you for that, that is a very
    embarrassing subject for anyone especially when that person is the butt
    of a joke regarding it. I say make it up to her some way and reassure
    her that it will never happen again. Send her some flowers with a note
    for forgiveness, she will turn to mush and everything will be all
    better!! ;-)
    
    Best of luck
    
    
    Lynne

Be careful regarding the flowers - they are nice, but if she thinks you're
using them as a substitute for a real apology, you are history.  Don't
just expect her to "turn to mush" when you give her the flowers or you
may find them thrown in your face.

The key thing is to convince her it won't happen again, that you understand
you made an ass of yourself and that you never meant to hurt her.

			Steve

    
    You live together and you don't have a sexual relationship?
    
    Maybe the problem isn't the joke itself but WHY you would 
    say such a thing when you're inhibitions are down (ie. drunk)
    and WHY she would want commitment enough to live together,
    yet not enough to express it sexually.
    
    Maybe you should tell her WHY you made the joke instead of
    apologizing for it.
    
    john...
    

    WHAT I WOULD HAVE DONE IN THAT SITUATION:
    
    I would have called my other half and said I was going home since I
    was not feeling well.  I'd meet them there.  Then I would remember
    what her favorite meal was and prepare it for her so dinner would be
    done when she got home.  Apologize and set her down for food.  
    
    My husband buys me trees for the house.  They are nices than flowers
    that only dry up and die anyway.
    
    brenda

    Why did you publicly joke/complain about lack of sex?
    (no need to answer that question publicly of course)
    
    If you can answer that, I think you will have the makings of a
    resolution. Of course, the answer to that _could_ result in a
    resolution that you were not expecting/wanting.
    
    
    				herb

    Well........it sounds to me as if maybe she's always wanted to be just
    a friend!
    
    You made a daft mistake, you realised this, you've done your best to let
    her know you regret it, I really don't think you can do much more. 
    
    Now sex has been brought into the relationship, if only verbally, she
    wants out - seems to me that might be the best idea for both of you,
    hope you work it out and don't get hurt.
    
    Brenda  
          

    Devils Advocate time....
    
    If I was in a relationship that had not become physical yet, and my
    "SO" started joking about "lack of sex", I'd be down right hurt.  She
    could very well have changed her mind...even though you've told her
    you're sorry, etc. etc. etc..  Has she seen you act like a jerk before?
    Meaning has she seen you drunk at parties and saying dumb stuff?  If 
    that was her first time, added to the insult of "lack of", then maybe
    she's having MAJOR second thoughts.  That comment hurt...give the wound
    time to heal.  
    
    As far as letting her stay until she finds a job.  If you want to try
    and work it out more, then let her stay.  Having her there may open the
    doors for more conversations.  
    
    IMHO
    

    
    Please tell me if I have the facts wrong:
    
       You say you live together? But she doesn't work?
       That sounds to me like she is living at your place.
    
       You say you live together and never had sex?
       That sounds like you're in love with your room mate.
       Do you sleep in separate beds?
    
       I know you don't want to hear this, but it really sounds
       like that she knew all the time it wasn't going to work out.
    
       Obviously, you've wanted sex, and she doesn't. Now, it seems
       that this last incident is an excuse for her to tell you
       her true feelings.
    
       You mentioned that you'll change you drinking and smoking habits.
       Changing for her isn't going to make her want you. It's just going
       to make her think that you can change back at any time.
    
       If you really want to change, then change for yourself (not
       any one else). Change because it's healthy (physically, emotionally,
       spiritually, or whatever). But do it for you. Because if you
       do it for her, then she would be right in thinking that
       you could change back at any time (because you can and you will
       the first time you get mad at her).
    
       As far as her staying with you til she gets a job... I know you
       don't want to hear this, either, but I don't think it's wise.
       I think if you take the offensive and say that if this one
       little thing can make her feel this way, then you don't think
       she's right for you, that you will feel better about yourself
       when it's all over.
    
       Tell me, has she said she loved you?
    
       If she can say she loves you, live with you while you support her,
       not want a sexual relationship, and dump you when you do one
       dumb thing (even after you apologize profusely), then the problem
       is with her, not you... get rid of her.

    I hate to be so pessimistic, but you two staying together sounds
    like a recipe for disaster.

    
    
    I'm a bit confused.  It seemed to me that you really cared for
    this woman.  You've also gone through alot in the last week or
    so.  It sounds like you just realized the need to attend AA and
    that she realized that too.  If you really care this much about
    this woman, why can't you continue the way things are?  It sounds
    like you've both had just an awful week and that maybe she cares
    about you alot too.  I would think that the support of even just
    a friend, who will attend AA with you will be helpful.  For one
    thing, it will make both of you go to the meetings, where otherwise
    you might blow them off.  I hope I'm not saying the wrong thing
    but I just read this note from base note to here and you've really
    changed 180 degrees.  You might also want to speak with a really close
    friend or a counselor about your realizations this week.  It just seems
    like alot to handle on your own.  I almost sounds to me like you're
    pushing this woman away, (and she's pushing you away) because you
    either saw yourselves in each other or got a bit too close for comfort.
    I may be all wrong, but I didn't want to keep quiet.
    
    Rachael
    

    I don't understand how a man who has only been drunk once in a year
    needs to go to AA, or even to pour all his booze down the drain.
    
    Laurie.

    	Re .21 -
        
    	Basically, because the disease of Alcoholism has nothing to
    do with the periodicity of the drinking. You could be drunk once
    a year and still have it, still be drinking alcoholically and be
    an alcoholic.
    
    	A much more defining characteristic is to note whether the drinking
    carries, along with it, what's called *life damaging consequences*.
    Let's say for example, _just once a year_, someone gets totally smashed
    and (Hmmmm - pick a life damaging consequence) "totally alienates
    his wife and her family" with his behavior. The rest of the year is spent
    picking up the pieces, making up and mending things - until next
    4th of July and it happens again. This has been going on for years,
    let's say. It's a good bet that this someone is an alcoholic. 

    	The "LDCs" of getting smashed/drunk in this string was that he
    lost his relationship. Now we dont know if that is trully for better or
    worse - no one does. The principle however, applies just the same.
    I personally applaud the fact that he recognizes this in himself
    and is choosing to do something about it.
    
    	Joe

    <I don't understand how a man who has only been drunk once in a year
    <needs to go to AA, or even to pour all his booze down the drain.
    
    
    Kinda depends on whacha by "drunk". In the sense of "acting out" I got
    drunk very very seldom. In the sense of being "anesthetized I was "drunk"
    every single day for 30 years.
    
    
    				herb

    
    In a very personal frame-of-reference, ...
    
    I wish that it had been clear to me in the beginning that this
    discussion concerned two people with alcohol problems.
    



    				herb

    thnx Brian
    
    
    
    				best-of-luck
    				herb

    Speaking as someone who's very well aware of what living with an
    alcoholic is like - both as an "active" drunk and a recovering one - I
    wish you luck Brian.
    
    Lynne
    

    I know this is a tough situation for you, but I think you need to dig
    a little deeper.  O.K. you made a bad joke, but this does not call for 
    an ending of the relationship, there is something else going on here.
    Hope this work out.
    
    Jeff

    I'm afraid I still can't reconcile the term 'alcoholic' with someone
    who got drunk once in a year. After all, it does not imply dependence
    on alcohol at all; dependence, by definition, has to be (effectively)
    permanent, and continuous.
    
    Laurie.

    I'm sorry to hear that Brian.  She evidently has deeper problems than
    has been aparent.  One day at a time hun...things will get better.
    
    Lynne
    

    re: .29
    
    If you've never lived with it, been affected by it, or whatched someone
    you care about go down the toilet because of it, then no...you can't
    understand, and probably never will.  It's not how much the person
    drinks, or how often they drink, or what they drink....it's how they
    are affected by the disease of alcoholism WHEN they drink.  Some people
    are alot worse than others...some only drink once a month, or once a
    year.  It's what happens when they drink that matters...not the
    frequency of it.
    
    FWIW
    
    Lynne
    

    re:.29
    
    Neither can I.

    <I'm afraid I still can't reconcile the term 'alcoholic' with someone
    <who got drunk once in a year. After all, it does not imply dependence
    <on alcohol at all; dependence, by definition, has to be (effectively)
    <permanent, and continuous.
    
    To repeat: kinda depends on whacha mean by "drunk". For at least the last 5
    years of my drinking I almost NEVER got "drunk" in the sense of causing a
    ruckus, or arguing with or hurting my wife and kids. I just quietly
    anaesthetized myself each night week with a pint of scotch. Not to mention
    the two extra dry martinis, bottle of wine and after dinner liquer anytime
    we went out to eat. 

    There is some question in my mind about whether _that_ is/was alcoholism
    at least in the sense of being addicted to alcohol. (I _was_ addicted to
    cigarettes as an end in themselves). I was also "addicted" to mind-numbing
    and used alcohol as the instrument for numbing my mind. In that sense, my
    problem was not alcohol, but rather the need to mind-numb. In the sense of
    being "anesthetized" I was "drunk" every single day of my life for 30
    years.  That was _a_ problem not _the_ problem. For me, recognizing _that_
    problem was a step along the way to 'internal peace' (sorry for the syrupy
    expression). 

    Was it alcoholism in my case? I think most knowledgable people would scream
    a resounding YES. But in the final analysis, who cares? I needed to address
    and solve the very real liquor problem before I could _start_ to address
    the underlying issues. Once I stopped drinking I began learning why I drank
    so much for so long. Why it was SO necessary for me to numb out each and
    every day. It was very unpleasant, but that's another discussion.
    
    				herb
    

    
    	Re -
    
    	I'd like to clarify that there is no "blanket observation" for
    diagnosing alcoholism. For those who "can't reconcile the term 
    'alcoholic' with someone who [fill in the blank]" well, your
    irreconciliation is based on an entirely valid suspicion. 
    
    	Most often, diagnosing a condition such as this requires a 
    *bunch* of [fill in the blank] type observations - [gets drunk once 
    a year and causes nearly irrevocable damage], in and of itself, 
    is quite possibly *not* entirely sufficient. Even though it might 
    still be "a good bet".
    
    	There's a myriad of probable behaviors that are well known
    characteristics of alcoholics. The AA pamphlet referred to in 1267.16
    with the 21 questions is a good place to start. In going through
    these and other stuff that's available, should you see SEVERAL things 
    start falling into place *which honestly outline someone's (or your
    own) behavior and character* - that's the time when an accurate
    diagnosis might be made.
    
    	Certainly not with just *one* thing. Hope this helps -
    
    	Joe

    Let's also remember that nobody in this conference has 'diagnosed'
    Brian. The two people who are involved with AA have their own good
    reasons for the involvement. Reasons that are certainly much more
    complex than "getting drunk once".  
    
    				herb
    p.s.
    Reasons that are also personal and private, of course.
    
    				h

    re.  28
    
    Well I to am sorry to here this,  this is what I meant about digging
    deeper and you will find that something else was going on. Don't take
    it to hard I believe that everything happens for a reason and things
    will get better.   Hang in there.
    
    Jeff

    re.30
    I came home to find my ex was pulling the same crap on me I hope you
    weren't too careful when you tossed her and her belonging out the door.
    It really sucks being played for a chump.
    
    -j
    

    
    No wonder she didn't need sex with this guy...
    
    She was like the drunk that takes a drink and has it come back out of
    his mouth and says, "Excuse me.  I must be full."
    
    

    
    re Basenoter:
    
    I'm sorry this has happened to you.  You must have felt very badly
    when you first found out.  I hope you're OK now and at least feel
    that there's nothing wrong with you.  the problem seems to be mostly
    in her court.
    
    Rachael