Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Hello, white this one out (I am a Sec ;'). It sounds like he did try to
    make arrangements for a ride from a co-worker.  I dont think he was
    trying to pull one over on you.  Let this one ride, and if it happens
    again in a more noticalbe form, then confront him.

    I think people usually learn how to handle conflicts in a relationship
    from their families when they were growing up.  This may be why your
    husband handles his problems this way.  Perhaps when he was growing up
    he saw someone in his family avoid conflicts at all costs, even if it
    meant telling a lie.  Or, he could be doing everything he can to avoid
    discussing his feelings with you.
    
    It must be frustrating not to be able to work out something like
    sharing your car openly and honestly.  My suggestion would be to
    discuss the situation with your husband in terms of the overall pattern
    and consequences of his lies and how they affect both of your abilities
    to have a growing and open relationship.  He needs to learn new ways to
    deal with problems in his life, IMHO.  I think its good that you are
    standing your ground.  Don't let him get you bogged down into the petty
    details of individual of "who said what when" and make you think you
    are overreacting.  You are right to feel the way you do.
    
    Hang in there.  My first boyfriend lied constantly when it would have
    been just as easy to tell the truth so I know its a difficult situation
    to be in.    
    
    Just my 2 cents,
    
    Kristin

    re:.0
    
    How can you trust someone who lies to you?
    
    If I had a mate who told frequent lies, I'd lose all trust in her.

    
    I, too, would have serious problems trusting someone who lies
    about anything.  I don't believe in "white" lies.  To me, one
    lie is just as bad as another.  Plus if he's willing to lie
    about such little things, then what happens when you're in a
    conflict and his honest opinion is needed? It will be hard for
    you to know if he is telling the truth.
    
    Rachael

    <to me one lie is just as bad as another>
    
    lie #1	My AIDS test last week, was negative
    lie #2	I have eaten 3 peanut butter sandwiches at one sitting
    
    
    				herb

       I don't think that when someone lies it's as simple as I won't or
    couldn't trust them anymore.  If your married it's worth getting to the
    bottom of things.  From what I know about lies, they start from telling
    someone what you think they want to hear, or what will keep you out of
    trouble, this is common when their parents were very strict or would
    punish them a great deal.  The lie was to avoid punishment. 
       Not saying that this is the problem, but it must be something and
    is worth looking into when the lie is for no apparent reason.
    
    MY 2 cents

    
    
    It could be that he does not see it as lying.  My ex grew up in
    an alcoholic family and lying was a way of life with these people.
    In fact, I too grew up in a similar situation and experienced the
    same thing.  I too for quite some time lied,but did not think I was
    lying.  It was the only way I knew.  If that is all you see your
    family doing, that is what you know how to do.  If they do not tell
    you that it is wrong, then how are you supposed to learn this 
    outside of this system?
    
    
    I've worked long and hard to kick that habit and have succeeded
    in doing just that.  Now I demand absolute truth from my family
    and the folks in my life.  However, it is hard with my family
    because it is their way of life.  So with that said, he may be
    doing this and not realize why.  Or he could be doing this and
    not even recognize it as being wrong or hurting you.  
    
    Either way you have to decide what you will and will not accept
    from him and make it perfectly clear to him.  If at all possible
    try to find out how he feels about it.  If he does not see it as
    a problem, then there might be problems trying to get him to stop
    or change his ways.  Just remember that you can not change him.
    You can only control how you react to what he is doing.
    
    Michele

    Many people really, really do not like to use the telephone.  They
    are downright phobic about it, and will ever-so-casually go through
    all sorts of machinations to avoid using it.
    
    Perhaps your husband is one of these.  Suggest it to him as a
    possibility. -- But first!  Ask yourself if you are one too.  If you
    are one, admit it before suggesting he is one too.  If you are not,
    offer to help as part of the suggestion.
    
    						Ann B.

A little bit along the same lines as the last couple of notes... Perhaps he
just doesn't like confrontation. Rather than going through the hassel of 
explaining why he wants the car, negotiating with you, risking that you'll
get angry, risking that you'll get your way, it may have been easier for him
to lie and be done with it. I guess the question you'll need to look at is,
when he lies, if he were to tell the truth would there be potential 
confrontation? (imagined or real, doesn't really matter in *your* eyes, it's 
how he sees it). If this proves true, IMO, I would look at his family's 
dynamics (is this how they communicated?), I would look at myself (have I 
given him room to have his needs filled without constantly challenging them?) 
and hang in there. Communicate with him how his behavior affects me and that
together we can work on over coming this.

 Perhaps he doesn't like asking other people (men) for help.  Several years ago
while still married, my now ex would suggest asking somebody for a ride, or
ask for help with some house/car repair project and I'd do everything I could
do avoid doing that..don't know why but I'd avoid it like the plague.  And her
suggestions would sound to me like "nagging".  I used to view asking for help/
rides, etc as a form of some "weakness" in me which I felt my now ex used to
enjoy encouraging..




Jim

I don't think this is too unusual a situation, if a little extreme.

Quite often I ask my other half to do something - just a little thing maybe
like ask for an early finish - he says he has, then turns up late, then
I accuse him of not asking, and it turns out he hasn't.  So why didn't you tell
me you didn't ask I say - cos it was easier to say I had...

I don't like to think that I'm a nag - but I guess I must be cos my ex used to
do this as well...

The attitude seems to be "anything for an easy life.."

Understanding why he has a problem asking for a lift is a different problem...

Sometimes I think that people don't do things just because you asked, maybe
its the way you ask?

I have talked some of this out with my boyfriend and he says that he knows I get
upset if he doesn't do something so he says he's done it and then he has a 50%
chance of not getting nagged (I might forget I asked, or might not find out) 
rather than a 100% chance...

This is something that is an ongoing battle for us... we're still working on it!



Xtine 

    First, i didn't read all the replys here so I may be saying something
    that's already been said.
    
    Okay now to what I've got to say...
    
    The trust is gone... not only here but from before that....
    
    Marriage needs trust.  You obviously don't and didn't trust him.
    Worse, because of your lack of trust, you caught him in a lie which 
    justified your lack of trust... now there's a vicious circle here...
    
    He's lied, you don't trust him... everything he does is going to be 
    questioned, everything.  
    
    Before you go to far into what it implies  you have to ask yourself 
    WHY you didn't trust him from the begaining... after all you said he 
    sounded convincing.  
    
    Ask yourself WHY you didn't trust him... sounds like a problem from 
    before this incident.  
    
    Skip

    
    There is value in this world to being your word.
    
    Remember all the times that promises were broken that people had made
    to you - parents, lovers, friends.
    
    Remember all the times that you broke promises to your parents, lovers,
    and friends.
    
    And remember all the MEANING, all the ill-intent, all the
    irresponsibility, you assigned the person who broke their word. 
    Remember how bad you felt.  Remember how bad they felt.  
    
    When people break their word to me, I feel like they don't value ME. 
    Like they don't value our relationship.  Like I'm not worth their
    commitment, whether it's giving me a lift to the shop when my car's
    being repaired, or promising fidelity in a relationship.
    
    -Jody
    

    re: no reply in particular
    
    Even little, insignificant lies chip away at trust, because, after
    all, if it was really THAT insignificant, why would someone lie?

    re .14, Mike,
    
    Excellent point!  May I quote you?
    
    aq
    

    re: .14
    
    *yes*.  bless you.
    
    -Jody

    Sure would like to know why entries .15 & .16 are acceptable (in
    the sense that they have seemingly passed muster "censorship-wise"; but
    it would not be acceptable to characterize offerings like that as -say-
    bitchy. (or would it?) 
    I think it is at least arguable that the intent would be the same,
    namely to insult. Actually that may not be true, .15 & .16 are probably
    intended more to embarrass and demean than to insult.


    				herb

    Re .17, Herb,
    
    I'm curious.  Do you, in fact, think my reply (.15) is intended to
    embarrass and demean?  Or that it's (IYO) bitchy?
    
    Not that anyone has asked, but my intent in .15 wasn't to embarrass 
    and demean. Re .14 I think Mike has not only stated a profound truth, 
    but has also phrased it extremely well.  I agree with his statement 
    concerning lies/importance so completely that I will probably quote or 
    paraphrase it often, which is why I asked permission.
    
    I could argue that the intent of .17 is to demean or perhaps invalidate, 
    but actually I don't think that's so.   Though, of course, I won't know 
    unless I ask.
    
    aq
                  

    re:.15

    Yup.

Re: .17

Hummm, interesting. I took .15 and .16 to be in support of .14. Now that I 
look back at it I see what your saying. Is my naivitity (SP?) and/or wanting to
always see the good in things showing through or perhaps my reality
is accurate and I shouldn't question it?

Should would like to know the real intentions of those two notes.

Laura

.20>Should would like to know the real intentions of those two notes.
    
    They were directed at me and I choose to believe that both Ann and
    Jody were being genuine and not sarcastic.
    
    There's a lot of second-guessing, assuming and presupposing going
    on in the baackground here (and in WN), and for the most part, I
    really don't care to try to figure out who's being sarcastic and
    who's not.
    
    If we're going to go down this rathole, we're going to waste a lot
    of time, disk space, and energy on an impossible task.  And in the
    end will you _really_ know who was being sarcastic?  I don't think
    so.

RE: 21

Point well taken. In fact I stopped reading WN for this reason. Didn't mean
to contribute to a rathole, I was just questioning my own interpretation.

Laura

    I would have preferred to be wrong. Thankyou for correcting my false
    impression of your entry, Ann
    
    
    
    					herb

    
    
>    They were directed at me and I choose to believe that both Ann and
>    Jody were being genuine and not sarcastic.
    
    Yup.  I'm totally behind him 100%.  When fabrications occur, it really
    doesn't matter *how* slight they are.  I may forgive a fib once, if I
    knew what generated it (why they felt it was needed).  But there really
    *is* no excuse.  If a relationship is to work, people have to be
    committed to honesty (even in the face of displeasure, potential
    argument, misunderstanding - all of these an be cleared up with
    communication).
    
    -Jody

    re.14
    What he said!
    
    -j

    1. "That outfit looks great on you."
    
    2. "I'm sorry I can't give you a lift, but I'm real busy tonight."
    
    3. "Wonderful dinner.  Did you make that asparagus souffl� yourself?"
    
    Not to play Devil's Advocate or belittle anyone's efforts to promote
    honesty and integrity, but how often have we said any of the above when
    we didn't mean it?  Maybe we were being polite, or sparing someone's
    feelings, but we did lie.  We did utter a fabrication.  I don't
    necessarily think that makes us bad people, however.  I've read a lot
    of replies saying always tell the truth, and that's a good policy to
    have.  But (to be honest) we should realize that we're not always going
    to tell the truth and that sometimes it's the right thing to do.
    
       - Larry

    re .19, thanks
    
    re .23, you're welcome
    
    Thinking about little lies, and particularly about social lies.  My 
    mom subscribes to the Thumper school of manners, i.e. "If you can't
    say something nice, don't say anything at all."  Of course, that doesn't
    *always* work.  Neither does the following, but I've taught it to my
    offspring as a guide.
    
    	You want/have been asked to comment.  Consider three conditions:
    
    		1.  Is it true?  If no, delete; if yes, go to 2.
    
    		2.  Is it kind?  If no, go to 3; if yes, say it.
    
    		3.  Is it necessary?  If no, delete;  if yes, say it.
    
    I've learned that telling little lies (even social lies, lies by
    omission, or by false suggestion) are dangerous - perhaps to the
    relationship, but certainly to me.