Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    I don't think you should worry so much about what a woman is looking
    for as much as you should zero in on what YOU want.  Know what YOU want
    from a relationship, and then look for it.  Have you tried the SINGLES
    file??
    
    FWIW...
    

          Start from within.  If there is someone somewhere in your
    life that is interesting, how do YOU feel about her?  Don't
    go getting yourself caught up in what you think her 
    expectations are and how she's going to judge you.  Love
    is an emotion and it can happen at a place you won't
    expect.  When that special woman enters your life you
    probably won't feel like you are trying, things will seem
    relatively natural.  Your feelings will take it from there.
         This is just based on my own experience.  Hope it helps.
    
    Bill                                    
    
    

    Something that might help is to remember that like attracts like.  I'd
    advise you to not only decide what you want in another person but also
    to start working on being the person who will attract those qualities. 
    If you want someone with great personal integrity, then examine yours
    and see if there is anything you want to do to improve that.  Become
    the person that your ideal mate will be attracted to.
    
    FWIW,
    
    Nanci

    Base noter:
    
    I don't think you can really be in love with someone 'til you get to
    know them.  Have you been attracted to women but not pursued it?  I
    am 28 and am attracted to men who have similar interests to my own.
    I generally take the initiative and ask a guy out.  Of course several
    good men have slipped through my fingers when I didn't.  You should 
    take the initiative and ask someone out simply because you like their 
    smile or the way they laugh, etc.   By knowing more about women, and 
    how to relate to them I'm sure you'll soon find what you're looking for.
    
    I would suggest you examine the more non-threatening methods of meeting
    people and getting involved in group activities.  Some activities you
    can find a person you're interested in and ask her if she'd like to 
    join you afterwards for a drink or coke or whatever.  I think you'll
    find power in groups because you won't be put on the spot.
    
    I have a friend who was in the same spot- he was 27 and never been
    kissed.  He joined the TOGETHER dating service, found a woman, married
    her and they are now expecting their first child.  I believe there is
    someone for everyone, but you can't expect her to come to you, you have
    to go find her!!
    
    Good luck!
    Tami

    re: .0
    
        There is some good advice in the previous replies...(and you
     might even turn your "virgin" status into a useful asset--in this
    day of AIDS...)
        The thing that caught my eye was "should I wait for love?"
    My short answer is "no."  Love and relationships take practice...
    and very few people know how to do it...and there is no such thing
    as perfection, anyway, and who'd want it...but, anyway, sitting around
    waiting is a decision to "react" rather than a decision to "act."
    So, if no one ever rings your doorbell you'll never step outside?  
    Won't you ever ring someone else's doorbell?  Maybe no one is home,
    or maybe they'll turn you away, but at least you are taking charge of
    your own life.  Maybe they'll invite you in for cookies or something...
        Nah, don't wait.  Don't demand, but don't wait...
    
    Frederick
    

    
    	Yes, there are "standards" for someone almost 30 and I'm sure
    you _can_ live up to them! I'll share some here; these belong
    to my fiance' and she sent them to me a couple years ago. They're
    pretty much self explanatory. Hope this helps -
    
    	Joe
    
    	Someone who lives life in a positive vein and find the good
    in things.
    
    	Someone who is trustworthy, honest, open and willing to share.

    	Someone who can recognize in me things I like about myself and
    like them too.

    	Someone willing to give me their opinions and advice and listen
    to mine.
    
    	Someone who is willing to learn and grow and encourages these
    same things in me.
    	
    	Someone who is able to tell me what they want and need from
    me.
    
    	Someone who will take my thoughts and feelings into account
    and recognize when needs and expectations I have are reasonable
    and need to be tended to.
    
    	Someone who means what they say and says what they mean.
	    	
	Someone who can be a seperate person and know where he ends and
    I begin.
    
    	Someone who known that I'm imperfect, that they're imperfect
    and can help create an environment where that's okay and accepted.
    
    	Someone who would not like to control me, dominate me, change
    me or make me into what they want.
    
    	Someone who respects me and lives life in such a way that I can
    respect them.
    
	Someone who believes that Love is an action and acts accordingly.    

    I think this last note probably has the most to offer.  Most women I
    know by the time they near 30 know enough to not expect to much as far
    as "experience = good technique".  It's just not true!!!!!!!  I have
    been with men who have gotten around quite a bit but have no style or
    concern for what's happening with me.  The quality that seems to come
    with intimacy is just that.  Being intimate.  Caring, paying attention,
    taking time to make sure that you are giving the other person what they
    want.  Every woman is different.  They may act similiar over dinner but
    in a very quiet personal moment they are going to be different.
    
    Neither do I know a woman who expects the first few times with someone
    new to be great.  There is going to be a nervousness on both parts. 
    That's one of the things that make it fun.  The tension and then the
    release.  
    
    As far as your nerves go, get use to it.  It doesn't really go away it
    just changes form.  Sometimes I'll go out with someone new and it's
    just another evening out with a friend.  Other times I start acting
    like I'm in high school and will spend 4 hours getting dressed.  (I'm
    now 32.)  I've decided that I will never be "sophisticated" enough to
    take it too casually nor do I want to be.  It keeps things for me
    interesting and makes it fun.
    
    One thing I do recommend strongly is develop a sense of humor about
    this all early on.  The lovers I will always remember and still miss
    the most are the ones who knew how to laugh the whole way through.  One
    guy would just stop everything to tell a joke.  He was to me a great
    lover.  This would probably drive some women crazy but I loved it. 
    Things will not always turn out OK.  Some nights things may seem like a
    good idea but nothing happens.  Don't sweat it.  There are a lot more
    nights to be had.  Being able to make someone smile on a night like
    this will endear them to you.  People want to be happy and have a good
    time.  If you can help them find this you'll be better off than most.
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    Good luck,
    
    Michelle
    

	>> The lovers I will always remember and still miss
>>    the most are the ones who knew how to laugh the whole way through.  One
    
	Oh, Michelle  I agree completely!  It is so nice to look back and 
remember someone with a sense of humor.. it's like icing on a cake.

	Mikki	&^)
    

Coincidentally enough, there was a recent Miss Manners column on much the same
issue.  A 29-year-old "inexperienced" man was wondering, if he should happen
to find himself kissing a woman, whether he should admit to her that his
"lack of technique" was due to inexperience.  Miss Manners replied that he
should not do so, and let the woman presume that it's the novelty of kissing
HER and his interest in doing so that is responsible.

Besides, any woman who would think less of a man because of "inexperience"
is probably not worth experiencing....

				Steve

    I would also support the view that you should not "sit back and wait"
    for love to happen...
    
    If I was you I would try a dating agency... one major advantage of this
    is that you are then meeting people with similar aims - they want a
    relationship... if you can avoid trying to make EVERY one you meet a
    bigf deal, and remember that if this one isn't "Miss Right" the next
    one on your list might be, then that takes a lot of pressure off.
    
    A lot of my friends are in a similar position to you, around the 30
    mark and single... and the one thing that is definite is that the more
    peoplethey meet the more likely they are to meet someone...
    
    I started a social club last year - a sub-group of a UK-wide
    organisation...  its a great idea for meeting people of both sexes in a
    non-threatening way... and the organisation of it kept me so busy
    Ididn't notice I was single...
    
    If you'd like details of how to set it up send me mail...
    
    The other thing to do is to let on to your friends that you would like
    to meet someone... not for them to organise a blind date - but so that
    you can meet more people...
    
    The answer is to increase your social circle of both sexes... for sure,
    the sister of a friend, the friend of a friend of a friend... etc
    etc... once you are comfortable in female company the rest will
    follow...
    
    
    
    
    Xtine

    The following reply has been contributed by a member of our community
    who wishes to remain anonymous.  If you wish to contact the author by
    mail, please send your message to QUARK::MODERATOR, specifying the
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				Steve






    I'm not a reader of Human_Relations.  I was pointed here by a close
    friend and I think I can add something to this discussion.
    
    I'm a 26 year old man, and I feel I can at least sympathize with the
    base noter, since I'm in the same situation.  As a person I'm friendly,
    intelligent, well dressed, tall, reasonably attractive, and have
    friends of both sexes.  However, I have a shy streak, particularly
    around women to whom I'm attracted, so dating has been hard for me. 
    I've never fallen in love or had a relationship.  My shyness was
    increased by attending a technical college, which are tough places to
    be a young adult.
    
    When you're shy, you may hear people say that you're overreacting and
    simply need to be more assertive.  They simply do not understand that
    shyness creates barriers as real and hard as walls.  It also hurts to
    hear this very real barrier downplayed by others.
    
    Our society has a myth that men must be experienced, and pushes men
    into a role that some are not able to fill.  This pressure comes from
    all directions, society, friends, even parents.  Two years ago, I read
    a book titled "Male Sexuality" which had an interesting statistic.  An
    anonymous poll showed that at age 21, 22% of men are inexperienced.
    However, the number is much lower (something like 1%) when asked in an
    interview. This means some men are lying to avoid admission that they
    don't measure up to a myth.  The result is that an inexperienced man
    feels alone and an oddity.   Feeling inadequate doesn't help one's
    self-esteem and can feed shyness.
    
    I don't know if you're shy, but if you are a good book to read is
    "Shyness" by Zimbardo.  He is a Psychologist at Stanford, and has done
    research on what he refers to as the silent prison of shyness. It has a
    section of exercises which can help someone break out and meet people.
    A good technique is risk taking.  Each week you must do one thing which
    is a social risk.  At first these can be simple, later they must be
    more complex and things you wouldn't have done before.
    
    I tried this technique with dating and it has helped.  I've joined a
    few clubs and I'm meeting more people.  I've managed a few dates over
    the past year, but that is still hard.  I'm currently in an odd
    situation, I can strike up a conversation, but once I consider
    suggesting a date, I start to stammer, unable to think past the
    self-feeding anxiety.  If I'm on a date, I have to suppress my feelings
    of attraction in order to avoid feeling shy.
    
    Being inexperienced is not wrong, it is not an affliction in need of a
    cure.  But it will be a barrier if you let it.
    

>    I'm currently in an odd
>    situation, I can strike up a conversation, but once I consider
>    suggesting a date, I start to stammer, unable to think past the
>    self-feeding anxiety.  
    
    This is not an odd situation.  This is standard operating procedure. 
    If it becomes a real bother simply wait for her to suggest the date. 

    It's worked on me!
    
    						Ann B.

    How about a non-date?  If she mentions something tha she's interested
    in maybe organize a group and invite her along to whatever.  Even if
    she doesn't go you'll be with friends and have a good time.  
    
    As far as the shyness, can I ever relate.  No one I know now believes
    me when I tell them how shy I was.  I never looked anyone in the eye
    and would go days without speaking to a soul, except maybe to the clown
    at Jack in the Box.  When I was about 19 or 20 it hit me that people
    were misinterpreting my shyness as something else.  I decided to make
    some hard changes.  I watched people that I thought of as outgoing and
    started to mimic some of their behaviors.  Heart pounding, palms
    sweating, knees shaking, unable to hear anything they were saying, I
    would smile make eye contact, say good morning and how was their
    weekend.  Before you know it I started seeing the shyness in them and I
    became much more comfortable.  I think because I wanted to make them
    feel more comfortable since I knew what they were going through.  When
    you get so caught up in looking at the ground and avoiding people out
    of fear you can't see that they are just human and that they are afraid
    too.  Everyone is shy and some point.  Some more than others.  I'm not
    trying to say that changing is easy.  It's the hardest thing I ever did
    and I've had quite a life.  But the rewards have been many and the
    thing people mention that they like about me the most after we get to
    know it each other, is that I put them at ease.  I make them feel
    comfortable to be who they are.  I let them forget about their shyness
    for awhile.
    
    You can do this too.  You will be amazed at the personal power that you
    actually have.  People respond in a very strong and positive way to
    those who acknowledge their power without abusing it.  I'm sure this
    happens at a sub-conscious level but start watching those around you. 
    See who has the most personal power and who is able to get along with
    the most people.  This will probably be the same person.
    
    One thing I learned over the 8-10 years it took to "come out" of the
    shyness closet it that I expected relationships to be there whenever I
    wanted them.  I was assuming the entire problem was mine.  Wrong.  I
    didn't take into account that other people have their own problems that
    keep them from getting involved in all types of relationships.  After I
    stopped taking total responsibility I felt a lot better and more
    relaxed.
    
    

 Hello,

 Here's the base-noter again.

 I would like to thank all those who responded to this note, especially the
 reply of the 26-year-old man in a similar position to mine. How I can relate
 to that! You describe my situation perfectly, and it makes me feel a little
 less bad about myself. This by the way applies also to a lot of other replies
 (and off-line MAIL), there's not only food for thought and good advice but
 also words of encouragement. Thanks to all of you for that.

 Some of the things I've learned so far from these replies/mails is that it's
 not expected to be 'good' at first, and that it's "Standard Procedure" to be
 nervous etc. Please note that TV may well have had a devastating effect on my
 picture of reality. But I also learned that I wil have to take action myself.
 I had already tried a dating agency, not one of those marriage bureaus but a
 'blind date'-sort of setup. I think I picked the wrong one because they never
 managed to arrange a date with someone with similar interests, if they succeed
 in getting me a date at all. For some reason I think that continuing this is
 not a good idea, I only feel bad after one of those 'forced' evenings out,
 where both her and me are being polite while we discover that neither has any
 common interests with the other. So I think I'll quit my subscription there,
 and concentrate on meeting women myself, but....
 
 .....but still remains the matter of, if I may call it that way, availability.
 Reply number 4 asks if I ever was attracted to women and not pursued it. Well
 I sometimes feel attracted, but so far the women in question were always
 involved in a relationship already, or even married. In fact there is one I
 would immediately ask out if she wasn't engaged already. She's a good friend
 of mine, though she probably does not know how I feel about her, and last week
 she invited me to her planned wedding in a few months......
 
 If I meet someone that I like, I can't help but ask myself if she is free or
 not. I try to find out, but I don't dare ask straight, or even through a
 detour, in fear it sounds like a hidden request for intimacy... I hope this is
 clear, my English vocabulary needs some refinement in the human_relations
 field. But this is one of my problems since, given my age etc, I feel the urge
 to quickly get a girlfriend, so I feel I should not 'waste my time'. I know, I
 know, this is not the right way to think, and with my brains I know it's not
 right, but it's also a matter of feelings.... this makes it all so
 complicated.

 Thanks for the statistics of the questionnaire. I must admit that when asked I
 also lie about my experience. I had also read that girls in the U.S.A. have
 their first intercourse experience at (average) 16.5 year! It's figures like
 those that make me feel inadequate.... but again this note has generated
 enough evidence that I should not let myself guide by this kind of
 information. What I need, I think, is a reality check. Which all of you are
 giving me right now. Thanks for that, and please keep the good advice coming
 in! I think that posting this note is one of the best things I have done so
 far this year :-).

 Yes, I CAN and WILL keep smiling, no matter what.....!   

    Don't get so nervous about girls starting so early.  These numbers are
    often deceiving.  For instance many women in the mid-west, rural areas,
    etc. get married and start having children at 17 or 18.  This skews the
    number quite a bit.
    
    The other piece of information that is rarely listed with these
    statistics is how many of those who experienced intercouse and/or first
    sexual experience (depending on how the survey is written) did so of
    their own free will.  It is now estimated that 1 out of every 5-6 women
    was sexually abused by the time they turned 18.   This part is usually
    dropped off because it makes most people uncomfortable but it changes
    the numbers quite a bit more than most might think.
    
    For instance there are 100 women you know.  20 of these were abused
    around the age of 6, a common age for abuse.  15 of these abuses
    included intercourse of some sort.  The other 5 engaged in intercourse
    around 16, again fairly average for abused kids to start having sex
    early.  Of the last 80, 6 were married and/or involved at 18.  20 had
    their first encounter at 20.  Another 20 started at 22.  Another 25
    started at 25.  The last 9 wait until age 30.  The average age for this
    group is 19 but only 26 had actually started by this age.  The last 74
    waited until later.  With 9 of them being older than you are now.
    
    Statistics are created to serve someone's need.  To sell birth control,
    to get a conservative politician elected, to get them something that
    they want.  Without all the numbers this info is useless.
    
    Besides all that I'm glad you've got an optimistic view point.  There
    are also quite a few suptle ways of asking someone if they're involved
    and you might be surprised at the number of women who are wondering the
    same thing about you.  You might try just slipping in somewhere that
    you are not involved at the moment.  For instance when talking about
    the overtime that you are required to put in our your ability to travel
    or whatever.  The lack of a relationship in your life right now gives
    you that freedom but "you'd sure like to have someone to take with you
    on your journeys".  This tack can be especially easy to use if she's
    complaining about the number of hours she has to work or the lack of
    time she has or mentions something she would like to get involved with
    except for the time constraints. (Don't let these complaints stop you
    from asking her out.  If she likes you she'll make time.  If she's not
    ready this gives you both a pleasant way out.)  Ask her if her
    family/boyfriend what ever minds all this time gone or if this workload
    has put a strain on her personal relationships.  You'll get a better
    feel for who she is and find out her status at the same time.
    
    Just remember you're not alone, just lonely and that's temporary. 
    Right now it sounds veryyyyyy temporary.
    
    

.16>                       -< Be careful of stats, they lie >-
    
    There aren't many 28 year old virgins around, either men or women.
    
    I'd guess that less than 5% of the 28-year olds in America are 
    virgins, no more.
    
    That might change in the next decade, what with AIDS.

    The idea of falling in love exists primarily in fiction.  What happens
    with relationships that work is that a friendship develops and never
    stops growing.
    
    What you should be wary of is falling in lust, because then your
    hormones may drag you into a relationship that isn't good for you.
    
    Do things that you like to do in groups so that you have the ability to
    make new friends.  You'll eventually come across a friendship that
    means something special to you.
    
    Rich

    I'm not so sure of that, Rich.
    
    One time, when I fell in love, it was quite magnificaent and immediate.
    
    And mutual.

    re: .14 (Michelle)
    
        "After I stopped taking responsibility I felt much better and totally
    relaxed..."
    
        I won't argue with your feelings, but I would like to suggest that
    what you were giving up was not responsibility, rather it was
    blame/shame (self blame and shame surrounding yourself.)  In fact, it
    was only *after* you took responsibility for your situation that you
    sought out changes that enabled you to move on...
    
    Frederick
    

> please keep the good advice coming in!

Hi There, Basenoter, 

Many good comments have been posted, and since you're open to
hearing more, I'd like to make a few comments and suggestions.

 >  girls in the U.S.A. have their first intercourse experience at
 >  (average) 16.5 year! It's figures like  those that make me
 >  feel inadequate....

Those figures are based on the entire population.  The average
age of first intercourse increases as one moves up the
socio-economic ladder. Simply from the way you express yourself,
I assume you're quite a distance from the bottom.

 >  the statistics of the questionnaire. I must admit that when asked I
 >  also lie about my experience. 

Thanks for including that. I've often wondered. (And you have a
lot of company. Statisticians say folks often lie to give
answers that are most "in fashion.")

Your notes made me reflect on my own family and friends, and I
realized I know quite a number of people who rarely dated and
started dating later than most of their peers.  I know a married
couple who had their first date with each other, and have now
been married quite happily for 20 years. One of my seven brothers
never dated until he was in his 40s. A few others never dated
until their late 20s and 30s.

I never knew about their experience until the last few years.
Your notes made me realize, of course, that people will often
talk about ex-sweeties and old relationships, but people do not
talk about the converse. After all, one does not talk about the
trip, say, that one did not take to Alaska.  :)  People don't
discuss what they have not been doing.  (You may have a great
many friends and acquaintances who are a great deal like
yourself, but it is not in fashion to discuss it ... soooo...)

 > ... and please not the usual "Wait for love" answer, 'cause
 > I've been doing that for too long now....

Wise comment.  Is this how the happiness proverb states it?

 "Happiness is something that happens while you're busy doing
 something else." 

One could switch this around to say love is something that
happens while you're out meeting, working, and playing with others.

How about asking out a few women who you simply find pleasant and
agreeable.  There is no law that says the hormone level has to be
soaring before two people go out. In fact, I think a person who
dates only those who fall into the category of potential
long-term partner misses a lot of fun.  My attitude here may be
grossly out of style, since, in the US anyway, singles seem to
practice serial monogamy. When I was single, I dated a lot of
people who were good company but not potential partners; I had a
lot of fun, got to knew these people much better  ... many
pleasant things happened.  Had I only been willing to date "the
prince," life would have been much less interesting.

Going out with a number of people you find agreeable will give
you experience dating, will be pleasant, and will also let you
feel more at ease when you do meet someone who falls into
the potential partner category. 

This next suggestion might sound a bit odd, but if you want to
become more at ease meeting and talking to new people, look into
Toastmasters. It's an organization that helps people develop
public speaking skills, and it's also a fairly social group. It
has many bennies. (COMET::TOASTMASTERS has more info.)

 >  ... given my age etc., I feel the urge to quickly get a
 >  girlfriend, ... not 'waste my time' ...
 >  ... I NEED somebody.... and I don't dare wait any longer...

 > ... I know, this is not the right way to think
 >  ... but it's also a matter of feelings ...

Please ignore this question if it strikes you as being too
personal, but why exactly do you want a partner?  You touch
upon it with your phrase "matter of feelings" but I am not at all
clear what the feelings are.  Social?  Sexual?  Companionship?
Marriage and family?  To fit an imagined social average? 

I think it is perfectly natural to want and need somebody.
It's also perfectly natural to feel fine as a single. It is
important, the, for yourself, that you know why you want somebody
and that you approve of your own reasons. 

Best of luck. Meigs

    re .14 (re .20)
    
    You should be ashamed of yourself
    
    for feeling ashamed of yourself