Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    
    It appears you have somewhat of a problem. On the hand you speak of
    teaching your children by example on a high moral ground based on 
    the teachings of the Catholic Church. You speak about premarital sex
    and adultery but as these kids get older they'll throw the word divorce
    right back at you as an excuse to do what they feel anyway. If you're
    going to end your marriage you can't really hold your wife to your
    ideals. You can continue to live to them yourself and show your
    children what you believe in and most importantly that you shouldn't
    compromise your own beliefs. Dropping the "demand" and then rationally
    attempting to explain your thought process to your wife might get you
    an informal agreement that will last for a while but I doubt you'll
    get the courts today to go along with it.
    

    No court in this country will grant you custody based only upon your
    contention that your ex-wife's cohabitation is morally unacceptable and
    damaging to your children. Nor, in my opinion, should they. If there
    are other circumstances (children exposed to sexual activity, criminal
    activity, abuse, etc) then, of course, you might have some hope on
    those grounds. But that doesn't appear to be the case.
    
    You do, of course, have every right to expose your children to your own
    moral principals and way of life, and to attempt to influence them. So
    does your ex-wife. You will have little success attempting to use the
    courts to support one religious point of view over another. 

    I may appear to be a bit critical here but...

    Your church, as I remember, is fairly hard line on adultery, I also
    believe it has somewhat strong views on divorce. You seem to be using
    your religion to meet your own ends by exposing your children to
    divorce while trying to shelter them from adultery.

    In my experience shielding children from the truth has a nasty habit of
    coming back to roost later in their lives.

    Jamie.
                               

    I was raised in the Catholic Church, my parents are still
    very devote church people. My little bother is also very much
    into the Catholic church, the other 3 kids (including me) do
    attend mass upon occasion. 
    
    My parents have been able to accept different life styles even 
    to the point of family member(s) living together. They do
    not agree with the life style, but they accept the fact we are 
    adults to live our lifes and we accept responsibilities for our
    actions. Our kids are having no problems accepting the life-styles
    and understanding the idea of commitment to another person 
    (no piece of paper needed), also our kids understand just living 
    together is not right for everyone. We also respect our parents and would 
    never consider sleeping together with an SO under their roof. 
    
    I believe you need to explain to your kids that you disagree with 
    the lifestyle and why, do NOT add hatred in your voice toward 
    your EX. Your children are older and can see for themselves what 
    is happening, they can tell the difference about whether your 
    dislike is directed at the lifestyle or at the person (your EX 
    --- their mother). I am not sure if you are just totally against 
    that life-style or if the feelings from the divorce may bring in 
    some extra feelings against your EX.
    
    Good Luck
    

    I would never use the church as a crutch to manipulate another.
    
    There are many good reasons for not wanting your children to be exposed
    to a live in partner and/or house guests of your ex.
    
    I think it is very important to give the children some breathing room
    after a divorce.  Usually when parents are together they hear one voice
    on discipline and house behavior.  When there is a divorce there are
    two voices often conflicting.
    
    Then when the divorced parents begin dating the children have four
    voices determining their destiny.  
    
    It has been my experience that children learn morales best by example
    not by dictation.

reply.4

I agree with most of what you said here and I agree that everyone is responsible
for their own actions and how they choose to raise their children. I do feel
however that we tend to follow examples set by our parents whether they be good
or bad and we tend to justify any wrong doing by using the statement "You did it"
or "Everyone else is doing it" so why is it wrong for me to do it too. I feel our
society is getting to a point where we are justifying our actions buy what we
feel is the norm rather than by the laws of our society and our religions. I hope
this changes in the future for our children's lives and families are at risk. With
a divorce rate of over 50% now, I shutter to think what it will be in 10 years.

It is very unfortunate that the base noter and his wife do not agree on the issue
at hand and there doesn't seem to be much he can do about it except to teach his
children by his examples and hope and pray that their children will follow the
examples set by him and abide by the rules set by the Catholic Church.

The divorce throws a mockery on the basenoter's  Catholic beliefs...

How can you uphold only SOME of the beliefs...?


If the spouse is in a stable relationship then I see no harm in allowing the 
children to be exposed to it - especially if it demonstrates a loving
relationship - in fact it is probably a better example than that of a couple
growing apart to the point of divorce...




Xtine

    
    Sounds to me like you're using the kids as a wepon to get back at the 
    EX. If your angry at her for this relationship she has, That's one
    thing. But don't use the kids as a pawn to express your anger. It's an
    old game and everybody winds up losing. Let her go. It just might be
    that this new relationship she has is going to very positive thing for
    the kids and if you steep in and give everybody a bunch of greif for
    the next x years, you'll be denying your kids something that may be
    very good for them. She's an adult and I think you need to give the
    benifit of the doubt.
    
    Neil
    

    Dear Anon,
    
    I have been divorced for two years, and I have a beautiful 5 year
    old daughter.  I don't care what religion you are or anything
    else....divorce is very difficult for children.
    
    My Ex-husband and I agree that we wouldn't expose my daughter to 
    us sleeping with others.  [that was our decision, everyone is 
    different] 
    
    I don't remember which note said it, however I agree, let her go.
    It is inevitable that it will happen [she will most likely want
    to live with that person], and the only thing I can
    foresee happening is your animosity over the whole thing being
    poured [for lack of a better word] over to your children.
    
    Robin

    
    Dear Anon,
    
    As the other notes stated, there isn't much that you can do with
    regards to who your wife lives with.  However, I would just stress 
    (as the previous reply did) that divorce is very hard on the children,
    especially at the age of yours.  Therefore your wife should talk all
    this over with the children before she moves in with anyone because
    that will effect the children also.  
    
    Its not really what goes on in the bedroom that counts, it is that the
    children may feel like daddy is being replaced & may not like that. 
    If it was me, I would wait at least 1 year after the divorce was
    finalized before I moved in with another man.  This is the part that
    could be traumatic for your children.
    
    I hope this makes sense.
    
    Good Luck,
    
    Debby
    

       I think it is important for the child of a divorce to continue
    to feel each parent's love (assuming it was there...sadly, this isn't
    always the case.)  There are lots and lots of ways to convey this.
    But another thing that is important is that each parent reflects 
    an inner happiness---that the child can detect.  If a child feels
    that the parent is unhappy, a basis for shame will be established
    within that child, for the child will probably make a logical
    (from the child's point of reference) determination that the parents
    divorced because of him/her.  If the parent is never seen as happy,
    or is seen as a martyr FOR the child, the child will also have a 
    platform for shame, for the child will once again assume that the
    parent is not happy because of the child or will feel a resentment
    for the pressure of being responsible for the parent's happiness.
    (The child is very ego-centric--reality revolves around them
    completely.)
         It is, therefore, important to be as happy as possible and
    to let the child know that though the love for the child will not
    be foresaken, that the parent's happiness is not determined by
    the child (at least not more than in part.)  It is further important
    for the child to understand that adult fun and happiness is not
    dependent on children, that there are other ways for an adult to
    be happy.  (What motivation would there be in life if the only
    happiness is in having children?  Seems pretty uninspiring, doesn't
    it?)  It is important, yet again, for the child to understand that
    new things *can* enter ones life to once again provide happiness...
    that happiness is not contingent upon some past event.  Once again,
    what kind of inspiration would there be for someone who has 
    determined that only that first lover can provide happiness...that
    no future happiness can be found, that one may as well give up hope
    of ever finding future fun once that past fun is dead?  
        For this reason, I don't agree with the concept of never bringing
    another person into that young person's life...even as that parent's
    lover.  The more adults that can positively influence the child, the
    better.  The more happiness that the child can sense is available,
    the better.  The breaking away of ego-centricity (which will begin
    to happen in adolescence) is inevitable...demarcating those lines
    may not be such a bad idea.
         I would agree, however, with the idea of sensitivity towards the
    child's feelings and perhaps a sense of caution and prudence in 
    building the bridges.
    
    Frederick
    

The Catholic Religion may be hard line about these things, so is Mormonism. Be
careful about what it is we are teaching our children. Are we teaching them rules, 
or are we teaching them the correct principles and giving them information that 
they can use to formulate their own decisions. I agree with everything that .11 
mentions.

I am involved in the Mormon situation and recently had my thirteen old daughter
ask me about my feelings concerning the matter. With the current beliefs and 
practices of our peers and my own experiences, I had to tell her that I believe
in marriage, but feel perfectly comfortable with cohabitation with someone that
I feel love for. Someone that is devoted to developing a relationship that is
honest, sincere, giving, and balanced. I told her that I would never participate
in one night stands or affairs that have no future. Bottom line, I would have to 
know that I love that person. I did remind her of the dangers of this kind of
involvement and asked her to learn as much about it as possible. Then she needs
to make her own decision. 

Lastly, be careful about how you teach your beliefs and religion to your
children. Ultimately, they will decide for themselves what they believe and if
you unknowingly force "rules" on them, it will weight against your intended 
solution, especially if they see situations that make them happier and feel 
better. Also, you are entering an interesting world brought on by divorce. That 
is, if the children are living with the other parent, no matter how good or bad 
that parent is, there really is not a lot that you can do about it. Your only 
option, is that if the environment is so bad that they are suffering physically 
or emotionally, you can sue for custody. They will be better off in most cases
if you just let it slide and don't create stress and dissention with their
mother over little things. They need you to be a good fair, loving father more.
Moreover, don't take your hurt and resentment out on them or infront of them.  

This is just my experience, so take it for what it is worth. 

Brett Berg

>    ... how do you feel morally about this subject? ...
>    ... is it socially acceptable?

If the children find the man an agreeable person, I believe his
presence is actually better than his absence. (I'm passing the
moral and social aspects you raised and leaning toward the
personal.)

Children benefit in many many ways from knowing adults. Alas, the
way our society is currently set up, children are more likely to
simply be acquainted with adults, but not know them well.

In her autobiography, Margaret Mead describes a house shared by
several couples during WWII in New York and she recounts in some
detail how much the children liked having so many adults around,
and how they benefited from their presence. (She also brings up
how valuable it was for the adults ... extra adult eyes around the
house lend comfort.)

Also, I remember one of my professors lecturing about why kids
like school. To my great surprise, among the most common reasons
was the chance to know teachers, coaches, janitors,
administrators.  The prof went on for some time about this, and
how enriching adult contact can be for kids.

In the same way, when I was a kid I loved talking to adults and
listening to their conversations.  Adding a person to a household
adds a richer vocabulary, more connections to the outside world,
more viewpoints, the richness of seeing how someone else does
things, and reacts with other people.

>   ... be very difficult to convince them that premarital sex and
>   adultery is wrong ...
    
They certainly know, or will eventually know, how unwise it can be.
It split their parents apart. Nothing can outweigh this.

As far as convincing them to take a certain attitude toward sex
and sexual behavior ... their sexual attitudes will be
continually shaped by the attitudes of both their father and
their mother over many years. In fact, you really don't get much
of a choice about what to teach them, your own attitudes --
whatever they are -- will be what reaches them most deeply.

Each parent, husband, and wife is an entire climate that
surrounds us. The words that come forth are either a natural,
harmonious part of the climate, or simply a contrary puff
that signifies nothing against the full weight of climate.