Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    The concept seems fine to me but I have yet to have a member of the
    opposite sex feel the same way. I have asked many female friends out
    to movies,skiing,hiking,roller skateing,etc for a "just friends" evening
    and they always attach other purposes to the invite and refuse the
    offer. I get the feeling at times that if she isen't interested in
    having sex with me then it's a waste of her time to just spend time as
    friends. Most times I even get the refused date cold shoulder routine
    that I have come to expect after asking out a non-interested party.
    
    Having been single for the better part of the last 6 years I really
    miss the company of women as friends and it looks like I'll miss it
    even more before the situation changes. Maybe it the old "never date
    someone you don't want to marry" crap my mother drilled into my sister
    but if we are going out just as friends it's not a date or is it?
    
    Stuff like this really makes me wonder just how different the thought
    process really is between men and women.
    
    
    -j

    As a woman, I would love to be able to go out with "no strings
    attached".  I would like to enjoy the company of a man without any fear
    of what I may have to fight off at the end of a date, without the
    sexual connotations, or expectations that are just beneath the surface.
    I would like to be just as comfortable as I am with my women friends. 
    I would like to be viewed as a person, instead of a sexual conquest.
    
    I'm not male-bashing here, so please don't take it that way.  What I am
    saying is that I would like to be just as comfortable in the company of
    men as I am in the company of women.
    
    Karen

    Karen,
    It is sad that you can't trust men I'm sure some of where you're coming
    from is based on past experiences but your experiences will never be
    different unless you give them a chance. Why not accept sometime? That
    "dirty rotten man" might actually be a nice guy given a chance.
    
    "The world will never change I take a step to change it"
    Wisdom by gort
    
    
    -j

    FWIW-My experience is that it is a waste of my time to ask out a member
    of the opposite sex as just friends as my invitation has yet to be
    accepted but I still try. Why? Because someone sooner or later someone
    will stop playing the old tapes and welcome the friendship I have to offer.
    
    -j
    
    P.S. I frequently have lunch with the wife of my best friend she
    understands we are just friends as does he. Another friend travels
    with his job alot while he is gone his SO and I carry on as if he
    were there with us just like friends. Too bad I can't take Linda and
    Debbie everywhere with me as character refrences.....Sigh
    
    

    My friend ... author of base note ... I just entered a note of this
    nature in MENNOTES.  I love to go out dancing, drinking, having fun,
    listening to C&W music ... and it rarely fails that I'll get an offer
    for the classical "one night stand".  I'm not interested, I just want
    to have some fun and that DOES NOT include sex (there's a killer
    disease running 'round and these days).

    I sympathize with you.  I don't know *the* answer, but, I've recently
    run on *one* solution.  I have a female friend who is a lesbian - she
    don't give a flip about getting into my pants and I don't give a flip
    about getting into hers .. we just go out and have fun doing what we
    like to do.  That will work if you're close to home (and single!) but
    when you're on travel .. good luck.

    Bubba

    So why can't you guys live in Seattle?????????   :-)
    
    Karen

    re .3
    
    In addition to my mail to you, I don't think men are dirty and rotten. 
    I like to think that most people are nice people, both men and women. 
    I have accepted dates on the assumption that I have outlined my expectations
    very clearly, that is as friends, no sex, not interested in anything
    further.  I've also come to realize that no matter how loudly I state
    my boundries that they are consistently violated.  I haven't yet
    figured out what my part in it is.  I just know that until I *DO*
    figure out my part, it's better not to date.
    
    Karen

    Karen,
    I diden't mean to imply you did think did sorry if it came off that
    way.
    I've had my problems with "just friends" loosing sight of just
    exactly of what that means too sometimes it happens so fast I
    wonder if my words fell on deaf ears. When it happens it blows me
    away everytime.
    
    I think it is important to send clear signals, I never say date when 
    we are going out as friends, keep the other signals like touching down
    to what is clearly friendly. Goodnight kisses are out of the question.
    
    
    -j
    

    re-.1 Somehow the first sentence got line butchered my home line is
    pretty noisey.
    
    -j

    Why does the basenoter specify "of the opposite sex" (or equivalent)?
    If the goal is companionship and interesting conversation, then surely
    same-sex friends would do?! Shouldn't gender be strictly irrelevant
    (unless there's some underlying theory about the basic boringness of
    (say) men :).
    
    My friends tend to be athletes and/or dancers, because I enjoy those
    activities. A goodly share are women. When I meet a woman at the tennis
    court or volleyball game, our "relationship" is immediately made clear,
    commonly by my talking about what a wonderful wife I have. I think
    that's just courteous, perhaps because I'm highly ambiguity intolerant.
    
    References to the spouse-object wouldn't work for the unattached, of
    course, unless you're willing to make up a romance-object: "I've just
    met the most wonderful woman... all this travel is excruciating! So,
    how about a movie?" Other signs of "unavailability" are suggested in
    Bubba's MENNOTES topic: it got shot off in Viet Nam, etc.
    
    In any event, I would keep touching to _the_ absolute minimum: ZERO.
    
    Leaving the "women take it wrong" topic to take up the "why not make
    connections for a pleasant night together" topic -- I think this is a
    great idea! Maybe some well-read notes conference (Digital?) could have
    a topic "Know anybody in ___?" If a DECCIE could introduce you in
    advance, certifying your limited ambitions (dinner, movie, that's all),
    that would be great fun! Lacking an assignation, you have to fall back
    on your introduce-yourself-to-folks skills: "Hi, I'm from out-of-town
    and I'm looking for someone _strictly_ to keep me company during
    dinner. Hungry?" Depending on your shyness-quotient, I think that could
    work.

    I've seen notes like "Hi! I'm going to be in ______ area on ____.  I'm
    looking for someone to have fun with - that's *all*" type notes in the
    Singles Conference.  It might not hurt to give that a try.
    
    FWIW,
    
    Lynne
    

    Hmmm --- Some interesting comments, thanks!
    Some info --- I've been the route of "out with the guys". That seems to
    usually ends up bar-hopping with people drinking their brains out. Not
    my cup of tea. I usually need to be in a meeting the next morning with
    some ability to think clearly and not have my primary concern being how
    close it is to the nearest bathroom.
    
    Sure, I like a couple of drinks but that's it.
    
    I've made a couple of Celt's games, but my timing isn't always that
    good. And, yes I am VERY HAPPILY MARRIED, so anything other than a
    friendly dinner, or whatever (do like C&W music) is absolutly out!
    
    Somehow asking a guy out to dinner doesn't fit me either. It usually
    ends up in a Digital discussion only, and I do that all day long --- I
    need a break!
    
    A "good friends" notes file might be an interesting idea!
    
    Don
                 

    There is a good friends notesfile.  It's called "Friends".  I forget
    the node.
    
    Karen

    	Remember back before  hormones were much of a factor? I'm referring
    to  before puberty. Boys kept to boys and girls to girls. There were always
    a few wierdos :^) I guess i'm trying to say I find it hard to believe
    that sex isn't a factor somehow in a man's interest  in women. 
    For example, my wife likes to do counted cross stitch. I can't imagine
    being interested in it otherwise.
    
    What about fraternal organizations? Most of them have degenerated into
    just another place to drink, but the concept is just a valid today.
    Perhaps our society has just evolved too fast to keep up with the
    needs. Perhaps I'm being unrealistic but I always assumed that if you
    were say a Mason you could go to a Masonic Lodge and find company in a
    strange city. I've never really been interested in all that but how
    about a Fraternal order of Field Engineers? :^) 

    
    I understand wanting to talk with the opposite sex sometimes,
    I have several male friends that I would not give up for the 
    world. 
    
    I have lots of women friends also, but sometimes I like get a
    mans perspective. It is hard to find men that are just friends, some
    of my male friends used to be more than just friends, but times 
    changed but we still have a good time.
    
    Joan
    

    The FRIENDS node is VAXCAT.
    
    Lynne
    

.0>    Am I all wet, or just stupid to think that two people can enjoy each
.0>    other for an evening without all the junk and labels that seem to go 

    There's nothing wrong with that. I have more friends, male and
    female, that I can go out dancing or to a movie or dinner, as 
    friends, than I have girlfriends.

    Sometimes it's even _preferable_ to go out just as friends.