Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    I can't give you a real answer, I was in the same situation as you...
    (nearly word for word!) But there were two reactions, either it was 
    turned into a fight.  Or it was turned into what I refered to "wall"
    where she would go sit in the middle of the bed and refuse to talk or 
    discuss anything with me.
    
    I'll tell you this much though, because of the lack of her willing to 
    try and find an answer to this reaccuring problem, we ended up
    divorced.
    
    I have no regrets for the dicision.  ANd in fact found after adjusting
    to being single again, that I had learned a lot from the experience,
    and would avoid having it ever happen again.  There isn't any advice 
    I can offer you.  Just my sympathy.  It's hard to communicate with your 
    mate or S.O. when they refuse to answer you, or react in some method 
    of anger to your inquiries.  
    
    Oh, I DO have one suggestion.  Something that was brought up to me
    once,  look at the way you are asking him what is wrong.  Sometimes,
    although it wasn't the particular case in my situation, the way we 
    ask someone what is wrong, can be taken on a threatening level. 
    Causing an immediate defensiveness.  
    
    Just somethng to examin while you're thinking about what IS wrong.
    
    Skip

    re.1
    thanks a lot for your reply.  I know what you mean about asking
    the right way.  I don' know if I'm asking the right way or not.
     I'm trying to.  I know all about fair fighting and am trying to
    do that.

    
    
    	I have also been in the same situation as you, (nearly word for
    word) and all I can say is, it's a tough road. 
    
    	Chances are, this is the best relationship your spouse has ever
    had. It is probably also true that could you talk it out, most of the
    irritations would turn out to be so minor they would disappear at the
    first sign of light. Chances are, unless you hang in there for a very
    long time living mostly alone, they never will be allowed out where
    they can be dealt with. 
    
    	It depends what it's worth to you. It takes a long time for most
    people to change and most never do. 
    
    	No advice here, implied or otherwise. I wish you luck.
    
    
    
    	Craig
    
    
    
    	

    I have a somewhat similar situation: my wife and I don't communicate
    MOSTLY because she's scared. Saying the wrong thing is scary; I have an
    unfortunate tendency to remember things she says and "use them against
    her" (her expression) later. My "conversational style" is also scary:
    I'm comfortable with a forceful tone and strident language (drama!),
    and she's much quieter and more moderate in her language. Regretfully,
    sometimes my speech escalates into yelling and insults when my first
    several (patient!) queries have met with the non-responsive responses.
    
    We _have_ to communicate, though. I am thinking of resorting to
    something like notes, e.g. some file on our PC which we can both read,
    leaving each other a "there's a reply for you!" message in autoexec.
    This would allow us to converse at our vastly different speeds, with
    comparatively little confusion about who said what when (noting is
    ALWAYS lucid, right? :). It seems pathetic that we should resort to
    such a thing, but maybe it will enable us to talk the usual way. We
    used to be able to talk.
    

    re.4
    Yu are so right!  My mate really hates my language.  Every once
    in a while I slip into a german accent.  My mom is german you see
    and sometimes her way of speaking just slips into mine.  He hates,
    I mean hates my mom and vice versa.  They haven't worked that out,
    and so he takes out his anger toward her in my speech sometimes.
     It makes me feel so embarrassed when I slip into that german accent.
    
    And he hates my "free spirit" language.  I really wonder why the
    hell he ever bothered with me.  See, I like to philosohize sometimes
    and I guess he dispises it.  Which is ironic, we met in a College
    Philisophy class.
    
    And when I get angry, I tend to raise my voice and shake my hands
    all over the air.  I'm not a sedate person when I'm angry.  So he
    yells at me to shut up, but he's allowed to yell.  Nonsense!
    
    He's actually upset that I used the word protest.  You see, the
    morning following my night journalism class, I asked him when we
    woke up:  are you protesting my going to school by having all the
    lights out and by you going to bed before 10pm for the past 3 weeks?
     My class meets 6:30p-10p every Thursday.  He responds sarcastically,
    maybe if you came home at a decent hour, you wouldn't feel so bad,
    and if I'm tired why shouldn't I go to bed.  And then he told me
    to f**k off with my protest.  So, I told him, great, go to bed,
    but leave at least one light on in the house.  I did that much for
    myself when I lived alone.  I couldn't believe his  attitude.  So
    we haven't spoken in 4 days about this and other incidents since
    then.  But today is it.  I called and told him this afternoon that
    we had to talk.  He said "whatever", so great, I'm going to.
    
    So i guess we learn as we go along.  I appreciate all your comments.

    It appears to me that he has very little interest in keeping your
    relationship going. Maybe it's time to get professional counseling. I
    should have mentioned that my wife and I have started this, and it _has_
    generated only a little conversation, if only during the counseling
    session (so far).

    I read a great book about three weeks ago:  _The Dance of Intimacy_.
    It talks about intimate relationships, and why people react (or act)
    the way they do in relationships.  You might want to try reading this
    book -- reading it helped me a great deal.
                                        
    I agree with the -.1 note -- it might be time for professional
    counseling.  It will help you understand things better, and a good
    counselor could help get you communicating.  The level of intimacy 
    one can reach within any relationship has a lot to do with how well
    one knows oneself.  You may find through counseling you need to work
    on yourself before you can work on your relationship with your SO.
  
    -Janice

    
    
    
    
    Communication....................
    
    	I said I wanted a little Red Wagon...
    	Not a Red Dragon.
    
    
    Barb

    After 36 years of marriage (same woman), I seem to sense a very
    pronounced degree of immaturity in many of the relationships cited
    here.  They "feel" very similar to the situations my two sons seem
    to be in almost all the time.  #2 son, 28 years old, is already on
    wife number three, and things are not going well.
    
    Counseling might help.....but .0, your mention that he gets into a
    "rage" when confronted is really scary.  Rage is the precurser (SP?)
    to actual abuse, and it sounds like he is very close to it.  I'd
    hit the door running!!
    
    Also, for the noter who mentioned the man-child who turns out all the
    lights before you come home.  I'm sorry, that's very, very immature.
    He obviously doesn't give a damn about you or your safety.  Hit that
    door too.
    
    I wonder in all the relationships mentioned so far....just how much
    give-and-take there really is?  It sounds like all too often both
    parties have fixed positions, and all the talk is about trying to get
    the other side to understand, i.e., give in.  I'm glad I didn't have
    to go through stuff like this.
    
    Dick

    Cindy:
    
    I have never been married but I can tell you that the last 7 of all 8
    relationships I have ever been in have been EXACTLY the same way. 
    Until now.  I just found someone who is just as communicative as
    myself.  How did I luck into this?  I don't have a clue.  It just
    happened ... I have never been so happy in all my life.  It changes
    the way I live my life and the way I look at things ENORMOUSLY.  And he
    says he's never experienced it either.  I think that if he (your
    husband) doesn't get the hint this time, it's time to "cut bait".  I
    always compromised like crazy from my ideal of what I was looking for
    in a man and it's so strange that I have finally found exactly who I
    have been searching for all my life -- and NO compromises at all.
    
    For those of you who are making compromises of the heart, I say, take
    heart because if it can happen to me (finding the right person after
    waiting so many years and experiencing so much heart ache) then it can
    happen to ANYONE.
    
    Tammi (who sings all the time now and has an indelible smile on my face
    for the past three months!)

    I have not seen much "love" in the responses either... I agree with .9,
    I see a lot of immaturity where there should not be, we're supposed to
    be grown up and mature folks! instead... there's not much love or even
    respect for the other half!
    A marriage is based in that, in respect for your spouse besides a lot
    of other things....(f**k off, is an horrendous way of treating not just
    an spouse but any human being!, it shows no manners whatsoever on the
    part of the offender and he/she should be taught some! it is never too
    late to learn some class and civic behaviour.
    Anybody can stand up and make oneself be respected (it is not a matter
    of money or education, but simple principles).
    Lots of luck and wisdom, and please, do not stand for abuse.
    Ana
    

    To the basenoter:
    
    I think you've been reading my mail; I'm going through the same damned
    thing right now with my wife of fourteen years.  When we have an
    argument, she pulls right into a shell and doesn't come out until she's
    good and ready, no matter how much *I* get hurt in the process...
    
    In the past, I resorted to leaving notes, cards - even whole love
    letters - to get my point across.  This time, I wrote a looooong letter
    in which I spelled out my fears for our relationship, my sadness that
    we were fighting, and my hopes that we'd make up soon and get on with
    life. 
    
    To my utter astonishment, she wrote me back a short letter urging me
    not to "pressure" her, to give her "space", etc. - or else.  I have
    since then written - and torn up - a dozen notes, for fear of the "or
    else".  But I am now caught in a trap, with all this resentment
    building up inside, threatening to devour the love I have for my wife.
    This "silent treatment" has gone on now for a week, and it's destroying
    me.  The only one I've been able to confide in is my mother-in-law. I
    *sincerely* hope this episode will end as all the past ones have, but
    I am not at all confident in the outcome this time.
    
    I'm sorry, basenoter (what's your name, by the way?) that I've turned
    this reply into a sob story; I know it's small comfort that someone
    else is suffering in the same way as you are.  If you can derive any
    comfort from the fact that you are *not* alone, please feel free to do
    so - and thanks for allowing me to sound off.
    
    I feel for you, and pray for your reconciliation.
    
    					--Eric--

    re. .12
    
    .10 was being written while I was writing .12, so now I know who the
    basenoter is.....
    
    Hi Cindy, my name is Eric ... you can find me in the intro note some-
    where, I think .....:^].....

    
    re .7
    
    A second recommendation for "The Dance of Intimacy" by Harriet Lerner.
    There's a second book by her called "The Dance of Anger" which
    addresses the fight/flight mechanism in relationships.
    
    clb
    

    
    
    I just went through the same thing. We weren't married but we lived 
    together for four years and one day I discovered I was just talking
    to myself. I tried to talk to him but it's like he was a stranger -
    I would talk and get no response. It was all very frustrating. I would
    leave him LONG letters and he would never even adknowledge reading
    them. One day I decided I couldn't live like that - that I rather leave
    and remember all the time we COULD talk and remember the person he used
    to be and I don't regret it. I feel better about myself and it's hard
    being alone, but I'm not going crazy trying to figure out how to make
    him talk to me anymore. Maybe someday he'll feel like talking and I'll
    be there for him - or maybe I won't. If your husband won't face the
    problem you can't make him, but you CAN do something for yourself.
    
    kristin

	   Boy, am I having flash-backs..  Yep, I remember these days with my
	ex-husband.  I have changed since the divorce (10 years ago). But
	as to what the answers are...?????.. I want to say, be more complete/
	happy with yourself helps.  Being needy was the culprit, for me.
	Co-dependcy relationships never work.  I have learned since not to *LIVE
	for him, but to live for me.
	   Now a days, I prefer someone friendship/love and let it go at that.
	I give me the positive feedback I like to hear.  

	  Do I ever want to love someone again?...??.Yes, ....but it sure is 
	scary.  I starting writing this yesterday and since have seen alot of
	replies that I was very interested in reading.  What I firmly see people
	talking about is 'pulling together' vs 'pulling apart'.  It has to be a
	2 way working together not one.

		Good luck to you, you are not alone.
	
		Mikki
		

	

    First of all, THANKS for all the wonderful response. 
    
    After a horrendous evening, I've spilled my guts out.  I tried to
    do it the mose sincere and non-demanding way I possibly know how.
     WEll, I've gotten a severe shock to my soul.  He told me to accept
    it or that by confronting him with my feelings would drive him away.
     I know it sounds incredibly stupid, but that's what I fear; but
    what I know that I have to accept.  So I cried my brains out, and
    went into a deep depression.  I called crisis hot-line, 'cause I
    and my family have a backround for trying to hurt ourselves and
    I needed a sane voice to talk too.
    
    Today, I'm different.  I'm taking action.  I'm not going to beg
    him to talk and say what's on his mind.  If my husband can not be
    interested in how I feel, well then, I will go on.  
    
    I just wonder about people like him.  Why are they afraid or
    non-willing to show a caring attitude towards their most invested
    lover and companion.  What the heck are they afraid of.  Why do
    they feel pressed and what's wrong with wanting to feel wanted?
     I guess if someone answered this that was like this, then they
    wouldn't be suffering from this inhibition.  It just keeps us wondering.
                                                                            
    

    We must grow up enough to recognize that love can only be a two way
    street.  The novels about unreturned love are just fiction.  When
    communication breaks down for an extended period, it is over.  You
    cannot turn back the clock, you cannot oblige someone to love you, you
    cannot sustain a one-sided relationship.  When it is over, it is over. 
    The question must be "Do I want to continue to pretend its not over?"
    
    fwiw,
    
    Dick

    Re. .17
    
    Hi again, Cindy.
    I hope for your sake (*and* your mate's, too) that he wakes up quick
    and smells the Folgers coffee.  It's plain to me, at least, what a
    caring person you are; you might want to ask him if he'd prefer ending
    up with some one who'll be less caring - or worse, ending up with NO
    one else.  I applaud your decision to get on with your own life, and I
    pray for your success.....
    
    On my own front (.12), I *think* I've cracked the wall, just a bit. My
    wife asked (via a note) that we talk.  Well, it was more of a monologue
    than a talk, with me saying paragraphs in order to elicit a curt
    response.  But I finally got out into the open some of the things that
    have made her upset, and I'm already taking action on them .... most
    importantly, she had admitted that she sees us drifting apart, and that
    she doesn't like that.  I have seized on that, and will make every
    effort to convince her that I don't like it either, and want to *do*
    something about it.  Wish me luck.
    
    							--Eric--

    .17  It sounds like you're doing a little better.  Focus on working on
    yourself -- it's the *key* to true recovery.  If your SO chooses to
    change, that's his decision -- not yours.  You can never change another
    person...
                       
    One thing in your reply that stuck out to me was your comment about the
    fear of losing the relationship.  I was once in a relationship where I
    was absolutely *terrified* of losing my partner.  And, of course, in
    the end there was an end (all things do end someday, you know).  As it
    turned out the fear of losing that SO was actually worse than the loss
    itself.  And the end of that relationship became the beginning of a new
    way of living for me.  As painful as it was, it was a blessing that it
    ended.  We were in a *very* unhealthy relationship.  I won't ever get
    into another one of those...!
    
    -Janice

    It's me again.  Well, it's been about 6 days since the onset or
    the trigger that set my depression and the fight between my mate
    and me.  I want to say that if one was to follow my string of notes
    entered in HR and a couple of others, one would get a feeling for
    the things that a reunited, divorced couple may go through.
    
    I will admit that I have an extreme jeolousy streak that has really
    disturbed my mind when it comes into interpreting and rationalising
    things between my ex and I.  It would take screens and screens to
    go into detail.  But, that insecurity and jealousy has played a
    large role into the arguements that my ex and I have had.  Also
    the history of our past relationship has kept coming into every
    single arguement that we have had since 6mos. ago.  A lot of resentment
    on both our parts.  Even though I have read "Fair Fighting, I have
    obviousily not mastered its technique and have hurt my ex's ego,
    sort of speak.
    
    He and I are both quite different in nature as well.  He a realist
    and I a dreamer and react on impulse.  I tend to over-dramatise
    as well.  I don't want to discount the feelings that I had over
    the past few days, but since last night with a very long discussion
    with my ex, we have gotten a grip on the situation.  We had to face
    some facts.  And he and I had to make a deal, not to bring into
    our arguements old garbage.  We settled our grievenessess and have
    agreed to attempt our new arguements in another manner.  He with
    more caring to my feelings and I to a more different approach into
    asking him for something, so as not to put him in an immediate
    defensive attitude.
    
    Anyway, we are both doing well and are each trying to meet our needs
    together in a better way.  It took this amazing fight to do it though.
    
    Thanks NOTES for listening.

    re: .19
    
         Something stuck out for me in your reply...where you said
    "or worse, that he'd be alone."
    
         That is a misconception, and is a reason why so many are in 
    relationships that they shouldn't be in in the first place.  
    Let me ask this question:
        What's wrong with being alone?  You see, there is absolutely
    nothing wrong with being alone.  Propoganda and social pressures
    tell us we need to be with someone else or else we're not whole,
    we're "incomplete."  That's crap.  We may very well be incomplete
    or un-whole, but being with another person isn't going to accomplish
    that goal.  
        Further, people need to acknowledge that there we can roughly
    be divided into three categories: 
    1.  Those who are BEST by being alone.
    2.  Those who are BEST by being with multiple relationships.
    3.  Those who are BEST by being in serially monogamous relationships.
        Using this as a guide, it is clear that only ONE-THIRD of people
    should be in the type of relationship which this note is talking about.
    Note, moreover, that this is not static.  That is, this is a dynamic
    list, and people have the freedom to change from one role to another.
    In other words, "ten years ago I was alone and that was great, then
    five years ago I was with one person, then last year I decided to be
    with several" (as an example) "and that was fine, too."
         The burden then comes into being with someone else when perhaps
    that isn't really where the most happiness will be.  And this burden
    is placed upon us socially.  
         It is important to recognize that we may very well be better off
    and happier by being in *other than* single, monogamous relationships,
    including being alone.
         Being alone is NOT tantamount to being lonely.  As we have
    probably all heard, sometimes the loneliest people are never alone
    (and some of these entries in here attest to this.)  NO ONE else
    can "complete" another...wholeness does not come by being with someone
    else.  Being or not being with someone else needs to be determined
    not by loneliness or incompleteness or some other need, hopefully,
    but rather by preference. 
    
    Frederick
     

    
    Hi ... I have 3 quick comments ...
    
    1) You are the only thing you alone can control and change in this
       situation.  Do not underestimate how much you can help yourself to
       take care of yourself ... take control of the things for which you
       have control and do not try to control those things you can not
       control (your SO actions).  If you need some help to take control 
       of your life their are many sources of help; a friend, a counselor, 
       a priest, etc ... whatever works best for you.
    
    2) The only way your relationship will improve is if both you and your
       partner are committed to try.  If he won't sign on the best you can
       do is take care of yourself as best you can (that could mean staying
       or leaving).
    
    3) A lesson from my life ... I kept having similar communication
       problems in a series of relationships.  There seemed to be 2 basic
       causes.  1) (Here'e another plug for the "Communication Two-Step"
       book) I often try to attend to problems too aggressively and needed
       to back down a lot, and 2) my selection of mates stunk.
    
       I had this vision of the ideal mate ... icrediably active, athletic,
       involved in the community ... funny thing about these "ideal" mates
       they didn't have the time for me that I wanted.  I had to spend some
       thinking about what I really wanted from my mate and when this had
       been internalized I realized I was being attracted to much different
       women ... women with whom I communicated much better. 

    Re. .22
    
    Hi Fred, long time no see!
    
    Sorry - my "or worse" comment is my typically "judging others by
    myself" mindset.  It just happens that I think *I* fit in your category
    number three ....... ;^)
    
    						--Eric--
    
    P.S. Good going, Cindy - I'm happy for you!

    re.25
    Roberta,
    You hit the nail on the head.  Reciprocation is the exact word my
    husband used.  I had ordered birthday balloons to be delivered to
    his work on his birthday.  I got a big cake and invited some folks
    over for a surprise party.  Yvonne, some friend of ours, says oh
    my what a cake, cindy did you make it?  And then James goes, na,
    it's too easy to just pick up the phone.  Doesn't this make me feel
    bad now, she'll expect me to do this.
    
    So our 1 day arguement stretches on....the next thing we do is go
    for the fishing trip, the rest of his birthday present from me.
     To tell you the truth, this story is almost too funny.  Here we
    are silently pissed at each other, and here I am, fuming all the
    while putting the candles on the cake, snapping a few photos and
    stuff.  But, I wanted the fight to continue.  I felt it never was
    resolved just ignored.  And that was just to common of what we did
    when we were married.  I absolutely refuse to allow that.
    
    So, yesterday, before I go home, I called him at home.  I let it
    all out.  Actually, I sounded like a wierdo.  I accused him of some
    things.  I demanded some things or else.  Not saying, I did the
    right thing, but I did not allow to let this get swept under the
    rug.
    
    So, after dinner, I walk all over the house, cleaning this, cleaning
    that and saying how our lives were doomed.  And how the kids were
    doomed.  That touched him.  And we got the ball rolling on resolving
    this issue.  Brought old garbage that never got resolved and then
    promising never to bring it up again.
    
    To make a long story short.  We negotiated some things.  We actually
    had a intimate discussion, encounter.  All I wanted in the first
    place and it didn't hurt him.  I hope we are on a brighter road.
     I feel like we are.
    
    Cindy

    Cindy,
    
    I hope things continue to go well for you and your husband.  You have
    the right idea; not to let the old issues keep interfering with the
    new ones.  Acknowledge them, resolve (or at least negotiate them as you
    both did) them, and concentrate on the here and now.
    
    My husband does the old "projection" routine with me.  He takes all his
    insecurities about career, self-image, and social status and projects
    them onto me, turning them into my problems and making it seem as
    though something is wrong with me.  My downfall is that I allow him to
    send me on major guilt trips because of it.  I have to learn that these
    are HIS problems and feelings that I am not responsible for and
    shouldn't feel badly about.  I like me, other people like me, and if he
    thinks I'm not good enough or can do better... hey!  Go out and find
    her!!  And then ask her if she has a brother :^).
    
    I am finding that the more I concentrate on making myself happy, the
    less resentful I feel toward him.  This has cut down our arguing;
    however, the communication barrier is still there and unless we can
    break it down, the marriage will not stay intact.
    
    Keep us posted on your progress, Cindy.  It sounds like you have made a
    good deal of it!
     
    
    

    Re. .26  Way to go, Cindy!
    Re. .27
    
    Roberta,
    	I'm glad you know the importance of self-esteem; I hope your
    communication problem is solved soon - believe me, I know exactly
    what you're going through!  I *still* like me, just as I am.
    
    	UNfortunately, my situation has come to a head.  After another non-
    conversation last night, I have had to resort to going to the health
    services this morning and talking with an EAP representative.  I have
    an appointment to see a counselor this afternoon; I hope it'll help.
    
    						--Eric--

    Eric,
    
    The EAP does help.  I started out going alone, then finally got my
    husband to agree on accompanying me.  If nothing else, it will make you
    feel as though someone else has your best interests at heart, even when
    you don't.
    
    Before meeting my husband, I lived alone for years and loved it.  I
    have always been very self-confident and happy with who I am.  It is
    amazing that no matter how much you tell yourself you'll never let
    another person make you feel like less, those words can be very hard to
    live up to.
    
    It's really good to have this forum and know there are folks who are
    going through the same thing!

    This smacks of being a too simplistic suggestion, and please don't
    infer that I don't think that your situation is agony -- I _do_ think
    so.
    
    That said, let me recommend an approach which I've found very
    therapeutic during the last year: Getting My Own House In Order. At
    home, I get unhappy for some reason, e.g. The World's Most Obnoxious
    Step-daughter is doing her thing. I use that as stimulus to go do
    something that I feel is worthwhile. Sometimes it's taking care of some
    house business. Maybe it's one of those "Yeah, I want to, but I never
    get to it" things like practicing a musical instrument or writing some
    short fiction. Very often, it is exercise, esp. going out for a run.
    
    This has several benefits. By focusing on my OWN improvement, I take on
    a task where I have considerable control. This is much less frustrating
    than (for example) trying to improve my wife, a task largely beyond my
    control. Second, I get a sense of accomplishment, which is good for my
    self-concept. "Yes, I find myself having to abide the presence of The
    World's Most Obnoxious Step-daughter, but I can play this Mozart nocturne
    pretty well." Third, the exercise in particular has helped me trim my
    weight and get some muscle definition ("A contiguous mass of fibers...")
    and LOOK better. This is also good for my self-concept, and might be
    handy in the event that my marriage ends.
    
    In general, instead of fixing everyone else in my life, I'm fixing
    myself. The fact that I confront my wife and her daughters LESS OFTEN 
    probably makes confrontation more effective when I do. My improved 
    self-confidence probably makes the confrontations more pleasant: 
    I'm less defensive, more patient, more loving, etc.

    .30,31
    Yep, you all are right.  I recall my dude spending hours playing
    Nintendo.  I mean that's O.K., I'm not complaining, better than
    him wanting to spend time out in some bar.  But, anyway, I get so
    bored playing Nintendo.  I'll play a bit, then just can't the sound
    of Nintendo.  I actually started self-talking again, about oh man,
    poor me, no one to play with.  Then, I self-talked myself again,
    and remembered to be positive.  I remembered the things I like to
    do, and went to the store to buy a couple of mags.  So, now he could
    play Nintendo, and I could read right there along side him.  We
    were both satisfied now.
    
    Cindy
    
    p.s.  I swear, I'm making regular exercise a higher priority come
    Jan.  I'm going to work less hours, take more classes at college
    and spend at least 3hrs/wk firming/toning up.

    .26> I had ordered birthday balloons to be delivered to
       > his work on his birthday.  I got a big cake and invited some folks
       > over for a surprise party.  Yvonne, some friend of ours, says oh
       > my what a cake, cindy did you make it?  And then James goes, na,
       > it's too easy to just pick up the phone.
    
    You didn't tell us what you said then, but here's what I would have
    said: "LISTEN, BUB, you know what's even easier?  Forgetting your
    birthday entirely!  See what I get you next year, Wretched Ingrate: no
    cake, no song, no party, no fishing trip" and I'd storm out the door. 
    I'd like to think I'd moosh the cake in his face before I left, too...
    
    Leslie

    re.33
    How do spell laughing hysterically or that <*sign to indicate that,
    as my reaction to your note.  'Cause that's exactly what I felt
    like doing.  All the while, I'm putting on the candles, cussing
    under my breath and he's in the bedroom probably cussing under his
    breath, and people are knocking on the door, I felt like throwing
    the cake, (already) out the window.  And then getting a stick pin
    to poke every balloon with and then take the fishing trip money
    to spend on a ticket to the Virgin Islands instead.   
    
    When Yvonne asked me about the cake, and James jumped in with his
    comment, I just said, naw, I wish I could bake such a bake though.
     Just was easier to order it, plus the timing just didn't fit in
    to make one.  I know he was touched, he was pissed too and took
    it out this way.
    
    But, I just knew that this fight was going to end eventually, and
    if there was a chance that it would end well, I didn't want the
    bad episode with the cake and his "30" birthday to be so remembered.
     And the kids were really hyped for the party and stuff, so I couldn't
    let them down too.  Plus I was kinda looking forward to the fishing trip
    too.  I think our friends could tell we weren't exactly in our best
    spirits.  Even though we dragged out our old photos from 10 yrs.
    ago and it brought back all those happy memories, but the bad ones
    too.
    
    Like I said, this wierd fight was on and off.  He thought it had
    been settled and so did I, but then i couldn't shake it off, because
    I really wanted to blow it up real high, so that I could for once
    and for all scream out every issue bothering me.  And I wanted some
    thing from him to commit too.  It took 6 days of confusion, jeolousy,
    and I don't know what to finally reach negotiation status.
                    
    It was worth it.  The fight and the birthday extravanza.  We will
    never forget it, nor will we forget the results of this argument.
     They truthfully were positive.  I learned my limits and weaknesses,
    as well as, my strong points.  Even though, it almost destroyed
    me.  I guess that's strange, I don't know.  At least, this "fight"
    didn't end up like the ones in our prior marriage. Those just got
    shuffled.
    
    Cindy

    My opinion is that birthdays should be celebrated in the home, not the
    office... it is nice if the colleages want to prepare a cake or
    something like that, but I certainly do not like my private business be
    brought to the office or viceversa... that way, private things are kept
    private.  My group gave me a birthday cake for my birthday and I just
    loved it, but it was strickly work-related, my husband would not come
    for it because it was just that, work-related.  Later on, at home we
    had our party and he did what he and the kids had planned... I enjoyed
    both affairs immensely, but both were kept totally unrelated.
    I find that in your situation things were done because it is expected,
    and it should be done, but deep inside... it did not come from the
    heart, but from pure pressure... at least, that was what I gathered
    from the note...
    Let time pass, and when he is receptive... then is the time to talk,
    never accusing or saying you did this you did that, but saying
    something like, gee, at times I feel depressed (or let down, or
    whatever) because of this... I wish you could understand the way I
    feel...
    we are all so complicated!... lots of luck.  Ana
    

    re.35
    Your suggestion at the end is great.  And you're right.
    
    His birthday was totally done from my heart.  I love doing these
    things.  But I will admit also, that perhaps, I wanted him to get
    an idea of the kinds of things I would enjoy from him as well. 
    Maybe he got that impression too, but it wasn't the prime target.
     During our marriage, we had parties for his graduation, but then
    again, they were put on by him and I both.  
    
    I just wanted to be able to do special things for him without getting
    a hassle and vice versa.   And I think as a loving couple, both
    he and I should be able to come to expect that.  At this point,
    we are learning how to do just that.

    
    I have been married for almost 22 years now and in all those years my
    husband has bought me maybe a total of 5 birthday cards and maybe as
    many anniversary cards. On my part I always went all out for his
    birthday and all other holidays. The first say, 6 years I *chose* to be
    hurt by what I thought was his lack of love. As we grew in our
    relationship, I grew up and realized that it wasn't because he loved me
    less than I loved him, its just not his style. I continue to do what I
    like to do as far as celebrating (I'm already planning his big 40
    celebration which is Dec. '92'). He shows me how much he loves me in so
    many other ways that I have no complaints anymore.
    
    Just my two cents
    
    Trudy
    

    thanks Trudy!  I'm beginning to realize this!