Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Hi Tami,
    
    You have to look at the source.  I would not let it bother you that is
    for sure, cause it just is not worth it.  Just let it go in one ear and
    out the other, that person is trying to get the best of you. 
    
    

    Hi, Tami,    
    
    I think it's obvious that you could never put up with such a
    mother-in-law. I think you should dump Andy and marry me. (I've always
    dreamt of a basketball-partner wife!)
    
    If not that, then how about responding directly? "Exactly what do you
    mean, Molly? That I'm not a "nice girl?" What IS a nice girl, Molly?
    One who sits on her can all day? Is perspiring something "nice girls"
    don't do? What's your problem, Molly? Are you water-soluble? Arthritic?
    A spaz?" Go on the offensive (smiling good-naturedly all the while)!
    
    I think Molly's main problem is that she doesn't have any talent. It
    doesn't require much intelligence or skill to sit watching basketball,
    or think up no-brains comments like "...and meet a NICE girl!" I think
    she's beneath contempt. Of course, I don't really know anything about
    her, it's just that I'm so much on your side.
    
    Personally, I love female perspiration. Please reply/author if you feel
    like ever shooting some hoops (or volleyball or tennis or running or
    frisbee etc).
    
    - Hoyt

    It occured to me that if you reacted to these catty comments and
    got all defensive or whatever, it may, in the eyes of the monster
    -in-law, simply confirm what she already thinks - that you are an
    unsuitable partner. Far better to win her over gradually and just
    ignore the catty remarks. As for Molly, I won't say what I think you
    should do to her, suffice to say it involves concrete boots and deep
    water. :-)
    
    
    Jerome.

    Claw their eyes out.

    Re: .1
    I've always ignored such people in my life, since there has only been
    5-it hasn't been much of an issue.  My dilemma is that I've met 2 in
    recent months.  I'm afraid they'll multiply to six bazillion before I
    learn how to deal with them.
    
    Re: .2
    I love your comments and agree a confrontation would be best, but I'm
    scared!  I've tried to confront a woman in the past, had it all thought
    out and was prepared, I just couldn't bring myself to do it.  I've
    never felt so "out of control" of my emotions.  I do feel defenseless
    because A) they would see they got the best of me and B) I'm afraid I
    might stoop to their level.  I treat people the way I want to be
    treated.  I don't know that I could control myself enough to have a cool
    disposition during the confrontation.  
    
    Re: .3
    No, I was very cool with Mamma.  I was more amused with her than with
    Molly.  I didn't give her any reason to dislike me, other than I have
    the hots for her son.
    
    I'm always very up front and honest with the people I deal with.  I've
    taken a very logical approach and can understand *why* they're treating
    me the way they are, (they want the best for Andy).  Perhaps you could
    help me more with the confrontation aspect.  It all sounds good in
    writing but I can't figure out why I can't do it...
 
    Thanks for your help!
    Tami
    

    ".2  I love your comments..." then you'll REALLY love ME! Send/author!
    
    In the interim: Confrontation is easier if you keep it light. Think of
    it as teasing instead of combat. "Say, Molly, how are all those NICE
    GIRLS back at your school?" That's obviously a rhetorical question: you
    are really _telling_ Molly that (1) you remember the remark and (2) you
    are comfortable reminding her of her rudeness. This makes subsequent
    rudeness a no-win for Molly, and shows you in a very favorable light.
    
    Re the Golden Rule "...I treat others as I would like to be treated..."
    (paraphrasing). That's a wonderful first rule, a great default
    behavior. It gets pathological with some people, however. There are
    those who believe the Golden Rule reads "Those who get the gold, get to
    rule." With such people, it's important that you alter your behavior to
    protect yourself.
    
    You can also apply the Golden Corollary. "If I acted like a jerk, and
    was therefore widely perceived as a jerk and was not well-liked or
    successful, then would I want someone to tell me to STOP being a jerk,
    and to arrange rewards/punishments to that I would learn to be LESS
    jerky? SURE!" Hence, treating jerks like jerks IS the Golden Rule.
    Treating jerks kindly is no kindness; it only makes them bigger jerks.
    The Golden Corollary reduces to the Golden Rule-of-thumb: tit-for-tat.
    
    Checking my mail... - Hoyt (really just under 6'1")

    Hi Tami-
    
    Is it possible that "Molly" might have felt *threatened* by your
    playing with "the boys?" I don't mean that she thinks you might've been
    after her guy, but rather she might be afraid that her boyfriend was
    impressed by your participation in the sporting event and might want a
    "do-er" rather than a sitter for a girlfriend. Whatever her motive, it
    sounds to me that she's a little insecure in her relationship with her
    boyfriend and may feel in need of some extra attention from him
    She got it, alright (although a scoulding probably wasn't what she
    expected), and I think that was punishment enough. What I would do, in
    this situation, is don't bring it up. Chances are she'll apologize
    sometime soon (if she hasn't already). A lecture or response from you
    would only bring you down to her level.
    
    As for Andy's mother, there really isn't much you can do about her
    except be gracious and polite (and grin and bear it). You can't afford
    to put Andy in an awkward position with his mother, because she's not
    just anybody...she *is* his mother. You could tell Andy how she makes
    you feel, though, and perhaps he'd volunteer to pass it on to her. That
    way she might not feel so threatened, AND you (and Andy) get the point
    across to her that you have a special relationship. If she is smart,
    she'll then accept you as you are and work to keep her son happy (and
    her son will be happy if you are happy).
    
    Good luck!
    
    Nancy- 

    Watch "Gone With the Wind"--Scarlett had some great zingers.  She
    always made them sound like compliments on the surface....
    
    My (lame) attempt with Molly would have been "Why, how considerate of you
    to be arranging friendships for MY BOYFRIEND!"
    
    Leslie

Another possibility (which I'm sure I would NOT have thought of at the time!)
would have been to say to Doug "That's a great idea!  And we'll look for one
for Doug, too!"

			Steve

    
    I tend to kill negative people with kindness.
    It's the good-karma solution.
    
    Anyone around can tell *they're* being the jerk that way.  And it reaps
    them the crop appropriate to what they sow.
    
    -Jody

    
    
    Take heart....
    
    I've gone through the same thing for 10+ years with my in
    laws.......you know the Mother in law who never did learn how to spell
    your name right, and the sister in laws who bat their eye lashes whey
    they talk DOWN to you.....I am the "jump in it with the guys" type too,
    and have found that those who like to make fun of you are the ones who
    are jealous as CRAP that they can't compete with these guys as you can.
    It eats them up. They know that they get treated differantly because of
    it and can't experience the same relationship with them as you can.
    
    Maybe the comeback to the 'nice girls' cut could have been "geez, but
    nice girls are empty headed and boring. Most men prefer women they can
    have fun with, but then you wouldn't understand that would you". 
    
    The OLDER I get though, the less patient I become with stupid insults,
    behind the back digs, and idiots. I have become alot more agressive in
    asking "just what the HELL did you mean by that".  It does of course
    come down to You and your boyfriend. You will win over his mom, or not.
    Either way, if she gets to you, let her know that you're the best thing
    that ever happened to her son!  
    
    As for me, I just don't deal with the family. I ignore them, don't
    answer the letters with my name spelled WRONG (cathie!!) and have
    decided that they're not worth the effort. Anyone else wants to get
    catty about my activities, I'll ask em if they'd fell better if we
    swapped prom stories or spent some time at the manicurist together....
    
    cat

    I believe the ball she threw should have been caught by your boyfriend.
    His reply should have been "I have already found one".  This ways she
    is slapped down and should be embarrassed by her statement, as well as
    hearing more from Doug latter on.
    
    The other way was what someone said earlier, simply confront her on the
    spot.  Though it might lead to a very heavy situation she just might
    realize that your not going to take any *sh** from her.  And I'm sure
    after she learns what type of person you are, you could actually end
    up being good friends.
    
    Let us know how things are going with this issue.
    
    Linda
    

    
    I know what it's liked to want to be liked by all.  In the case of
    Andy's mother, take it with a grain of salt.  You said it yourself;in
    her eyes, no one will be good enough for her little boy.  Obviously,
    she's wrong: you know it and Andy knows it.  Grin and bear it, she will
    only change if and when she wants to.  In the mean time, don't make any
    waves if you can help it.  Otherwise you'll wind up on the Oprah show
    "Why I killed my in-laws".
    
    As far as Molly and those like her are concerned, if it gets to hard to
    bear, let her know.  Come right out and ask her. (maybe not in front of
    a lot of others, she may feel she has to show off)  You can find out
    whether or not her reasons are legit, and more than likely not, and
    even if you don't get her to like you, she'll at least know where you
    both stand and you won't be taking anymore of her sh!t!!!
    
    Let us know how it works out, and GOOD LUCK!!
    
    -raquel
    
    

Ummm, I hate to ask this but where is Andy during all this?  Don't you think
the best "ideal" comment would be for him to simply state, short, sweet, and 
to the point "I just love it when she gets the rebound so leave it alone okay?"

I've only read the first few comments in this string.  But I know how I would 
react to a comment made to my girlfriend along those lines.  And it wouldn't 
be to ideally sit by and just let her handle it.  Especially if it involved 
my parents.  The example of what I siad above, is short, sweet, to the point
and lets them know straight on that he considers your behavior acceptable and 
therefore it isn't really any of their affair, without being insulting or 
intimidating.  

If he wouldn't make that kind of comment.. then a reply to "We should have
Andy over to the ***** so he can meet some NICE girls."  

You reply "Oh that's a wonderful idea.  I could see him now sitting along 
side the basketball court watching me play with his nice girl eating crumpets 
and sipping tea."  then laugh and leave it be.  

You don't have to be back biting spitting nad hissing to get the idea across
that you didn't appreciate the comment, and that she had no place in making 
it.  

Better still, you could say, softly "I knew a hooker who went there!  Isn't 
that an amazing coincendence?"

Sometimes a quick one line response gets more across then grabbing the 
snot nosed brat by the braids and shoving her nose in the grass.  

They're quick, simple, easy to give and if done right, non-offensively insulting
in such a way that it takes the person you make the comment to a couple of 
hours to figure out exactly what you meant by your comment.

Skip

    RE: .14
    
    Andy did stand up for me, and made comments to both Molly and his mom.
    My problem was that *I* couldn't-didn't have the power to.  I am very
    quick witted and would have been able to come back with a zinger under
    different circumstances.  They, "the cat women", simply put me on the 
    defensive immediately.  My blood boils right from the get go.
    
    We're going to pop in on mom and dad this weekend, to prepare for
    trick or treatin'- costumes, make-up, out the door.  If she has time
    to make any remarks I'll note them here.  I'm going as a "jungle
    woman", so we can pretty much guarantee that you'll be hearing from me.
    <giggle>
    
    Thanks for everyone's help!
    Tami
            

    
>    We're going to pop in on mom and dad this weekend, to prepare for
>    trick or treatin'- costumes, make-up, out the door.  If she has time
>    to make any remarks I'll note them here.  I'm going as a "jungle
>    woman", so we can pretty much guarantee that you'll be hearing from me.
>    <giggle>
    
>    Thanks for everyone's help!
>    Tami
 
Tami, 

I think this is the best attitude here, make a joke of it and laugh at their old
fashioned narrow minded ways.  When you can, OVER EXAGERATE the behavior they 
think inappropriate, eventually they'll get the idea that you are making fun 
of them and their attitudes.  It's possible you just may make them realize that
there isn't anything wrong with your behavior.  Or at least, that it could be
something far worse then (as they perceive it) tom-boy behavior that you could 
display.   

I'm glad to see the he did stand up for you and that you appreciate it, too 
often I've seen the guy in a similar situation just take on the attitude that 
it's your problem and he shouldn't worry about it.  I'm not saying he should 
jump in and create a fight or argument between himself and his family, just 
that he should let it be known that HE has no problem with the things that 
they are reacting to and find them to be part of the reason he is attracted 
to you.  Often this is enough to make a parent at least bite their tongue when
they are about to make a offensive remark.  

Oh and something else, don't worry if you can't be a quick wit with the snappy
come back.  It's easy for me to offer some snappy one liners.  Different when 
you're in the middle of the situation and can't relax to think them up.  I know,
I've been there. And found myself thinking later "I SHOULD have said.... instead
of just letting it slide."  Hindsight and all that I guess.

Skip

Re: .16

Skip, you're an optimist.  Subtlety is usually lost on such people.  If anything
they'll believe their opinions to have been confirmed.

				Steve

    
    	Classic case of jealousy if you ask me. Keep on shootin those
    hoops! Consider the source and continue being yourself.
        Mother's, this one's included tend to make off the wall statements
    to their son's lady friends. I don't know if they're looking for a
    response or what but I know exactly where your coming from.
    
    Old small forward,                                    

    Jody Bobbit has a great idea....kill them with kindness!!!
    
    Be icky sweet to someone who is nasty to you, it annoys them more!

    Interesting: -1 says "Treat them kindly because it annoys them more"
    while I say "Don't treat them kindly because kindness reinforces their
    bad tendencies." The two statements agree: kindness isn't.

    
    Tami,
    
    Here's some advice I learned a couple of years ago that has helped me A
    LOT ... just fill in the blanks ...
    
      WHEN .... (and be very specific about the incident)
      I FEEL ...
      BECAUSE ...
    
    I think it is great because it does not attack and does not draw any
    judgements.  If you retaliate with judgemental statements someone can
    agrue your statement.  If you just state your feelings it hard for
    someone to deny your feelings and it also makes you more human. 
    Notice, this aproach in no way explicitly asks for behavior change. 
    That's the best part ... without asking for change you often create it.
                      
    How about,
    
    
    Mrs. Andy,
    
    WHEN you said nice girls shouldn't play basketball with the boys
    I FEEL hurt and concerned
    BECAUSE I care for Andy a lot and I am hoping you get to know me and
            this comment makes me feel like you're making a quick judgement.
    
    Final comment ... there is a BIG difference between saying "makes me feel
    like" you're making a judgement and "you are" making a judgement. 
    That's why this works for me ... don't judge other people ... share how
    you feel .. and do not explicitly ask for behavior change ... and you
    probably will get the behavior change you desire as well as a lot of
    respect.
    
    Good Luck,
    Greg
    

    The following reply has been contributed by a member of our community
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				Steve






two disclaimers:

First:  I didn't intend to put my experiences/feelings into anyone's mouth 
and I hope I've adequately covered myself with "from my experience" types of 
disclaimers, if not, please realize that was what was intended.

Second: the only reason I want this note to be annon is that my SO also works 
at DEC and his co-workers don't need to know that I have problems with his
family.

Thanks!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow Tami,

I really feel for you.  I've been in the same situation most of my life:  
always "one of the guys" who will talk sports or play (certain) sports at
any chance.

It's a very alienating experience to be "forced" into social situations with
women (people) you wouldn't "pick" as your friends.  If you "be yourself" they
won't accept you, but at the same time, if you try to "be like them", their 
interests aren't yours, and how long can you feign interest in a topic you 
just can't relate to at all?

I don't want to put words into your mouth, but from my experience, the sudden 
inability to respond to remarks like you've been subjected to has come from a 
need to fit in in some way.  Despite what you may be trying to convince 
yourself, maybe you really do care if these women like you?  (This is what 
I've come to realize about myself, and I'm not exactly proud of that fact,
but trying to learn to deal with it.)

You know that you are going to run into Molly in other social situations, and 
it would be nice if you could at least talk to her for 5 minutes, right?  And 
you know that at family gatherings, all the women (or at least mom) are going 
to end up in the kitchen and you'll want to help to make a good impression, 
but you'll again be tossed into an uncomfortable social situation. (again, I'm
casting my experiences on to you)

I'm reading this string very closely because by "being myself" I've caused 
a great deal of tension between myself and my SO's sisters.  And while I 
hope I can keep my mouth shut long enough to smooth over the damage and win
them back, I'm not convinced it will be possible.  It hurt when my SO said, 
"If you were a guy they wouldn't think twice about who you are/how you act"

So where is all this leading?  Nowhere I guess.  I just wanted to give you
another person's perspective, wish you good luck, and let you know that I'm
suffering through a similar situation, and haven't found any easy answers.

    
    
    
    re .22
    
    
    great note!
    I can really relate. You're right. The hard part, after all of these
    years is really just wanting to be excepted for who I am.....
    
    cat

>.0 I don't think twice about being the only girl playing football ...
>   with the guys ...
>   I played with Andy and his fraternity brothers.  
>   The guys all loved me ...

>   ... one of the frat brother's girlfriends sat idly by the side
    
The nerve of the woman! Sitting "idly by" while you are playing 
basketball. She should be shot!

Or perhaps Molly is checking with her friends about how to react to a
good friend's sweetie who is very catty, who only speaks to men, who
ignores all of the other women around. 

Many many years ago I was at a lakeside cottage BBQ with about 40
people.  Midafternoon, a $60,000 car pulled up and out stepped
Kathy, a $200,000 a year fashion model, stunningly beautiful.
Kathy's parents owned the cottage and she had known most of the
people there since she was a kid. Kathy began circulating, saying
Hi to old friends. For Kathy, circulating meant hugging,
embracing, and kissing nearly every man there. Although several
of her mother's women friends said hello to her (musta been
loyalty to mom), Kathy responded to greetings from women by
turning away and going up to another man. Several times, she
walked up, greeted, hugged, and kissed a man who was standing
next to his wife, chatted with him for two or three minutes, then
walked off without ever acknowledging or even looking at the
woman. It was grotesque.

Kathy's reaction to the men didn't bother me at all -- we could
all use more hugging and kissing -- but her contemptuous
treatment of the  women left me nauseous. 

From the awareness you show in your note, I would bet a large sum
you didn't pull a Kathy-act.  But some of your expressions  --
"catty  women, prim and proper, old school, nails broken" -- are
not exactly endearing. Perhaps "Them" being "not outgoing" has
something to do with their perception, or reaction, to you.

A person who offers to introduce one person to another doesn't
match the description of a non-participating, passive follower
who is not outgoing. 

A person who has to get out of the room because of anger doesn't 
match the description of a gentle soul who is an assertive, 
aggressive, outgoing leader.

Molly has been rude and guilty of bad (dumb) timing.  Obviously
she is not crazy about you. But I don't see why that makes her a
"catty woman."  You're not crazy about her either. 

I've sure puffed along here on the opposite track from most of
the other replies, but, to me, it seems your attitude toward 
Molly began with indifference, moved to contempt, and ended with
great anger. Had you given Molly any reason to like you? Molly
has behaved badly but perhaps you have not been at your very
tippy-top behavior either.

    -1: You failed to hit the broad side of the barn.
    
    Tami was standing there when Molly made the remark about how Andy
    should meet some "nice girls." Molly spoke as though Tami wasn't there.
    This is _precisely_ the behavior you disparaged, in your otherwise
    irrelevant parable about Kathy the model.
    
    Speechless fury isn't characteristic of assertive leaders. True enough.
    That's why Tami identified it as aberrant behavior, an issue she needs
    help with. That's why Tami started this note, in her assertive leader
    manner.

>    Tami was standing there when Molly made the remark about how Andy
>    should meet some "nice girls." 

No. The remark was regarding a "nice girl," not "girls.

>    Molly spoke as though Tami wasn't there.

Right. I agreed she behaved badly. But I suspect Molly was not
the first to treat another with indifference.

    Glad I popped back in!
    
    re .24: >Had you given Molly any reason to like you?
    
    Point: I didn't give her any reason to dislike me, or to treat me the
    way she did.  I did not treat Molly any differently than the other
    people I was with.  I did meet and speak with several other women, but
    I played with the guys.  I would have played with the women and did
    invite them *all* to join us, they opted not to.
    
    > The nerve of the woman!  Sitting "idly by" while you are playing
    > basketball.  She should be shot!
    
    I don't have a problem with people who don't participate, I was simply
    trying to get a better grasp of *why* she might not like me without
    knowing me.  Molly was sitting "idly by" I'm not sure how else to say it.
    
   > Contemptuous treatment of the women left me nauseous.
    
    Molly treated me with contempt-I don't understand why she doesn't have
    that effect on you.  I think if I saw Molly treating someone else the way 
    she treated me I would also feel nauseous.  When it was directed/aimed at 
    me I became emotional.
    
    I appreciate your insight, but I was at my tippy-top behavior, as I 
    always am. :o)
    
    Tami

.-1 
>    I don't have a problem with people who don't participate, ...

I think you do. Or you have a problem with something here, because 
the tone used to describe the non-participants is quite negative:

>Them:  Passive, leaders, not outgoing, "prim and proper" from the old
>    school believing women should watch not participate, as not to get
>    their hands soiled or nails broken.

BUT ... I've thought some more about this ... the situation seems so
odd.  Molly's remarks can be explained in a number of ways:

1. She assumed you and Andy were friends, but not SOs.
2. She was joking around, in response to something someone had said.
3. She was being silly/sarcastic. For instance, assume you had just 
   said "I'm going to punch Andy" and her remark was a silly follow on.
4. She knew you and Andy were SOs but she meant it. This explanation
   seems so outlandish ... if she REALLY wanted Andy to forget about 
   you and go out with someone else, this was not the best moment
   to bring it up (which does not mean it isn't true, of course!)

What was the subject of conversation when this remark was made?

Aside from that, your note has really bothered me, and I've had
trouble isolating just what has caused my reaction.  I've finally
realized it's twofold and has little to do with Molly. 

First, the expression you chose, "catty women," rubs my fur the wrong
way; it's such an anti-women stereotype. If you had written "catty
remarks" or "catty people," I would probably have reacted differently.
But your note is about "catty women."  Would you have posted
a note asking what to do about "dumb Polacks" or "dirty <ethnic 
group>"?

Second, and most deeply felt on my part, I believe you are being
irrational. I think you are not regarding yourself honestly. 

  You present this me/them counterpoint, where you get all the virtues 
  but dump all over those prim and proper people.

  You criticize people for not participating (.0) but then say you
  don't have a problem with people not participating (-1).

  You say that you are an assertive/aggressive leader, but 
  then have to get out of room because you were angry at a remark,
  and let Andy and Doug speak up on your behalf.

  You say you are a gentle soul yet one stupid remark makes you want 
  to inflict bodily damage. 

  Andy is so upset that he's starting to avoid his mother, but 
  you can win her over, no big deal.

These statements are not in harmony with each other.

It is wise to leave a room if staying ends up with you slugging 
someone. And it's good to realize one is uncomfortable at certain 
types of remarks. But it's not wise for a player to keep saying 
"I play great tennis" when the player keeps defaulting on matches.

    RE: the last reply...
    
>>  You say you are a gentle soul yet one stupid remark makes you want 
>>  to inflict bodily damage. 
    
    I don't see the problem with this, because I think this is normal.
    Lots of people say things are aren't particularly nice and make us
    want to pummel them.  The "gentle soul" in ourselves makes us think
    twice before doing what we really want to do.
    
>>It is wise to leave a room if staying ends up with you slugging 
>>someone. And it's good to realize one is uncomfortable at certain 
>>types of remarks. 
    
    Normally, yes.  After a certain point, it gets annoying and some sort
    of action is required unless you want the insults to continue.  
    "Running away" from confrontation just boldens the agressor to
    continue and maybe even increase the severity of the insults because
    they know what will upset you and drive you away.
    
    A suggestion?  Ask the young lady what she had meant and explain 
    to her that her statements hurt your feelings.  If she apologizes,
    then the matter could be dropped.  If she truly meant to hurt you,
    well, then all bets are off...
    
    Benson

    RE: .28
    
    >The tone you used to describe the non-participants is quite negative.
    
    I don't think so.  I see nothing wrong with those women who are "prim
    and proper", we all have a place in this world.  I have also described
    them as *LEADERS*, I think this is where the conflict lies.  Because
    we are leaders of different sorts these other women are trying to gain/
    regain *control* by putting me down.  I don't have a need to be a
    leader, I simply am one.  I can follow just as easily and often do.
    
    Molly knew Andy and I were SOs.  She was not joking around as cited by
    Doug.  Her comment was not tied in to be humorous or silly.  Her
    comment *was* outlandish.  (Andy, Doug and I thought so)-this isn't
    isolated to my reaction.
    
    I'm sorry that my expression 'Catty Women' rubs your fur the wrong
    way.  The experiences I have had have all been with women.  If men
    had also treated me this way I would have said so.  Why would I make
    an anti-woman comment, being a woman myself?  These women do exist,
    others share my plight as we've seen in this note.  I would not have
    posted a note about "dumb Polacks" (rest assured).
    
    I presented them/me to aid in creating the scenerio.  The point of my
    note is not to delve deeper into why we are the way we are but how to
    deal with these people. 
    
    Andy has spoken with his mother and she is aware that her comments were
    noted and deemed unacceptable.  She has agreed to work on this issue,
    as I said previously I am not the only person she treated this way,
    Andy's brother-in-law faces the same dilemma.  Since this has all
    occurred we are quite strong on our way to resolving the issues through
    open communication and recognition of how we effect one another.
    
    I'm sorry if I've offended you in any way, with my descriptions or
    analysis.  The help I've received in this note has been quite
    beneficial and I believe will give me the strength to confront (rather
    than run) the next time a catty person confronts me.
    
    Tami
    

> .-1  ... Because we are leaders of different sorts these other
>      women are trying to gain/regain *control* by putting me down.

As cause and effect ... I think something is lacking in that
passage. 

>   Her comment *was* outlandish.

Ok. I buy it.  But then, it wasn't catty. "Catty" connotates
subtle and sly.  Outlandish does not equal catty.

>   ... Why would I make
>   an anti-woman comment, being a woman myself?

Because loads of women (and men) have done such for years, just
as loads of Afro-Americans (and others) have been anti-Black.
"Black is Beautiful" emerged because so many assumed 
Black was not.

>  I would not have posted a note about "dumb Polacks" (rest assured).

But it's Ok to putter on about "catty women"?  The point is,
both are disagreeable stereotypes. 

What really perturbs me about your comments is that you have
made several contradictory statements and you don't seem to
notice.

You say making Andy's mother like you is "no big deal," but you
let the situation reach the stage where Andy was avoiding his mother?

The above facts are contradictory.  Looking at the situation, I
can only conclude:

A.  Getting mom to like you is actually harder than implied by
    "no big deal."

B.  Andy is being put to a lot of bad feeling because you're not
    ready to put forth the minimal effort the phrase implies.
    (And everything you say makes me doubt this one.)

It's only fair to say, I suppose, that contradictions drive me
up the wall.  Too many years of trying to reconcile eternity in
hell with unbaptised babies.

   re .31:
    
    "Catty" (adj.) subtly malicious; spiteful.  (desire to harm others,
        or see others suffer)
    
    I did not use "catty" as a disagreeable stereotype.  I used catty as
    an adjective, which it is.  I did not say ALL WOMEN are catty, that
    would be a stereotype.
    
    I agree catty and outlandish are two different words.  I agreed with your 
    word choice of "outlandish"- it is *bizarre* for people to mistreat
    others, this is the part I don't understand.  These women are also
    catty.
    
    You're right, I don't believe I made contradictory statements.  You
    still haven't proven that I have.  But this doesn't capture the essence
    of this note.  If you're trying to help me I'll need more information.
    I'm getting the impression that you believe I deserved to be treated
    maliciously.  The point is I did not, why don't you believe me?
    
    As far as letting the situation reach the stage where Andy was avoiding
    his mother, that was his decision not mine.  Andy was upset that both
    Molly and his mother were not giving me a chance.  This also happened
    over a very short period of time ( a number of weeks).  I have won
    Andy's mother over, it *was* no big deal.  This was possible because
    Andy made her aware of how her actions affected us.  Confrontation is
    the key to dealing with "catty" women.  That is what I've learned from
    this note.
    
    .31 " Too many years of trying to reconcile eternity in hell with
          unbaptised babies."
    
    <huh?!> 
    

    RE: .32  Tami
    
    Your use of "catty" sounded like a negative stereotype to me, too -
    it sounded like a "category" of women that differs from the way you
    see yourself (per your descriptions of "ME:" and "THEM:" in the
    basenote.)  
    
    You might want to be careful how you categorize people (when it comes
    to labeling others by activities they do or don't do.)  If you're not
    an engineer or manager (or something comparable,) then someone could
    easily describe you as "traditional" (if, for example, you don't design 
    and/or fix computers with the guys the way many other women do, including 
    me.)
    
    Unpleasant comments can come from anyone - it's individuals who make
    them (for reasons known only to those individuals.)
    
    You did mention that the guys in the baseketball game "loved" you -
    and the woman making the comment was the girlfriend of one of those
    "loving" guys, right?  Perhaps she misunderstood some interaction
    between you two (and wanted to get back at you for some hurt she
    was feeling.)  Or maybe she's just mean.
    
    It has nothing to do with her gender.  Both men and women can be
    mean at times.

    "There are no differences between men and women. Suggesting there are
     promotes the oppression of women. Any negative statements about women
     will not be tolerated."
    
    Ms. Conlon: Perhaps you could bind the statement above to a key in your
    favorite editor, so you could repeat the statement again and again and
    again and again and again, without having to think of a way to restate
    the refrain.

    RE: .34  Hoyt
    
    Sarcasm and hostility towards me won't change the unfairness of negative
    stereotypes.
    
    If you think you can make a case that only one sex engages in "mean
    remarks," do phrase your own remarks carefully.  :-)

    RE: .33
    
    You're right I did categorize them.  I meant to use "catty" for their
    actions and give background on our "styles" to illustrate the basis of
    our conflict.  I was not negative in my description of these women, if
    you read it that way, as a few others did, I'm sorry-that was not my
    intent.
    
    I acknowledged previously that, from my experience, the people I
    encountered were women.  If any man ever treated me the same way I
    would have noted that fact, but it isn't the case.  I agree, it has
    nothing to do with gender, any one can be mean....but in my story the
    gender is relevant.  I don't think I could have referred to Andy's
    mother or Molly in different terms.
    
    I also agree wholeheartedly that Molly was probably hurt by my ability
    to be welcomed into the group so readily, she'd been a member for 4 or
    5 years.  There was no direct interaction between her SO and me.  I did
    rally and invite everyone to join us on the bball court, I'm not sure
    what else I could have done.
    
    tami
    
    
      

    RE: .36  Tami
    
    > I acknowledged previously that, from my experience, the people I
    > encountered were women.  If any man ever treated me the same way I
    > would have noted that fact, but it isn't the case. 
    
    Sounds like a function of your gender and sexual orientation, Tami
    (in the sense that we're talking about a men-women situation where
    some possible jealousy or resentment towards you is involved.)
    
    > I did rally and invite everyone to join us on the bball court, 
    > I'm not sure what else I could have done.
    
    If the women in question don't feel comfortable playing basketball,
    then it won't help much (and might make matters worse) for you to
    invite them to play.  It might seem like rubbing it in that you
    have a skill they lack.
    
    Perhaps the group sometimes engages in other activities besides
    basketball (at least some of the time?)  If so, then there would be
    other opportunities to share activities and be friendly with these
    women (if that's your goal.)
    
    I'm not suggesting that you enjoy showing these women up on the
    basketball court or anything, but it might seem that way to them
    (and may account for their continued resentment towards you, in
    case it does continue.)
    
    It's easy to write them off with a negative categorization, but if
    you stop and think how you might feel in their places, perhaps there
    are more positive solutions to the problem.

    Look, honey, there's a HOUSE moving down the street, and it's dragging
    sumpin' and whumpin' it! No, I see now, it's NOT a house. It's a
    PERSON with a chip on it's shoulder as BIG as a house! And it's
    draggin' a horse -- a really dead horse kinda flattened out like a
    pancake -- and it's beatin' on it and beatin' on it. <yawn> Dang,
    honey, that thang makes me sleepy. Let's watch "Get a life."
    
        Ms. Conlon: the preceding is not sarcasm. It is pretty hostile.
    
    What strikes me, Suzanne, is your fair-mindedness. In keeping with the
    gender-blind values you articulate so persuasively, you rigorously
    attack sexism in all it's forms, NOT just when women are the victims.
    You attack positive stereotypes about women, for example, and negative
    stereotypes about men, with the same vigor and intensity as negative
    stereotypes about women. This imbues your observations with an
    integrity which makes them credible to your readers regardless of their
    values or gender.
    
        The preceding was sarcasm. It's hostile too.
    
    My previous remarks weren't sarcastic or hostile. I hope I've
    illustrated the difference between my previous reply and actual sarcasm
    and hostility.
    
    In general, I don't do sarcasm, because I'm really good at it, so I
    consider it a cheap trick and beneath me. Hostility I do, but not
    toward YOU, Ms. Conlon. I happen to like you a lot. I happen to have
    considerable respect and affection for you. The preceding is not
    sarcasm (really).
    
    Basenoter: You cannot win. You are damned. You have spoken ill of
    persons with two X chromosomes, and there is no redemption. Resign.
    
    - Hoyt

    RE: .38  Hoyt
    
    For God's sake, calm down!
    
    The world is not ending in this topic.  The planet is not exploding
    because I dared to offer some practical suggestions to the basenoter's
    request for help on this issue.
    
    I am not the Devil.
    
    Just take some deep breaths and I'm sure you'll be ok.

    By the way, Hoyt...
    
    > My previous remarks weren't sarcastic or hostile. I hope I've
    > illustrated the difference between my previous reply and actual sarcasm
    > and hostility.
    
    You've illustrated that you have a significant range of both hostility
    and sarcasm.  :-)

    re .36 and .37
    
    What I read in Tami's notes was sense of fun and play, kind of like
    "Hey, come on let's all have a good time playing basketball!".  Why
    should Tami be sensitive to those who don't want to play?  If they
    don't then fine, that is their choice.  I don't see Tami "judging" them
    on that criteria.  What I hear Tami saying is that she didn't
    appreciate what this other woman and her mother-in-law said about her
    and in *my* mind these two women are uncomfortable because Tami is
    not allowing herself to be stereotyped.  I've met lots of women who
    look down on other women who play basketball with the guys, etc.  For
    not doing the gender specific stuff, like sitting on the sidelines and
    watching the men play the game.  I feel like the women who made the
    "catty" remarks are reacting to an internal sense of "I don't measure
    up because I don't want to/can't do what she is doing".  I personally
    feel that Tami has a right to be upset because these other women were
    flat out of line.  
    
    All of the above is IMHO of course.  :-)
    
    Karen

    -1: Hear, hear!
    
    One holiday YEARS ago, I experienced an situation possibly analogous
    to Tami's. During my Norwegian bachelor farmer days, I'd arrive at my
    bro's house to bask in the ruddy glow of his Norman-Rockwell-painting
    family, for Thanksgiving (say) or Christmas. The post-turkey-gorging
    session would be followed by the men's adjurning to the television room
    to watch football. I would join my sister-in-law in the kitchen, to
    wash dishes and chat (blabbing is more fun than football anyday!). 
    
    My relatives didn't remark on this, but once one of the extended-family
    boyfriends (a stranger) made a remark in front of the football crowd
    which appeared to seriously question my sexual orientation. I slammed
    him with a vicious remark stolen from a Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers
    comic, responding with much more heat than anyone in the room could
    comfortably handle (-X isn't unprecedented... sorry about that, S.C.).
    
    Afterwards, I decided that what got to me was the UNEXPECTEDNESS of the
    affront. I was there with my FAMILY, being what I'd always been, and a
    _stranger_ makes a remark like THAT!? Surprised like that, I couldn't
    think things over and make a judicious remark. I just reacted.
    
    Maybe Molly's remarks were similarly surprising to Tami, and Tami was 
    similarly unprepared to respond judiciously.
    
    - Hoyt

    RE: .41  Karen

    > What I read in Tami's notes was sense of fun and play, kind of like
    > "Hey, come on let's all have a good time playing basketball!".  Why
    > should Tami be sensitive to those who don't want to play?  If they
    > don't then fine, that is their choice.  I don't see Tami "judging" them
    > on that criteria. 

    As someone else mentioned, the "ME:" and "THEM:" descriptions in the
    basenote sounded a bit judgmental about the other women's lack of
    participation in the basketball game:

    	"Them:  Passive, leaders, not outgoing, 'prim and proper' from 
    	the old school believing women should watch not participate, as 
    	not to get their hands soiled or nails broken."

    Perhaps the women sensed Tami's opinion of them during the game (who
    knows?)

    > What I hear Tami saying is that she didn't appreciate what this other 
    > woman and her mother-in-law said about her and in *my* mind these two 
    > women are uncomfortable because Tami is not allowing herself to be 
    > stereotyped.  

    It's also possible that they were uncomfortable because they believed
    that Tami was stereotyping "THEM" (as "prim and proper," etc.) because
    they did chose NOT to play basketball.

    > I've met lots of women who look down on other women who play basketball 
    > with the guys, etc.  For not doing the gender specific stuff, like 
    > sitting on the sidelines and watching the men play the game.

    Perhaps the women felt that Tami was looking down on "THEM" for NOT being
    in the game (while Tami saw herself as being "loved" by all the guys for
    being in the game.)

    > I feel like the women who made the "catty" remarks are reacting to an 
    > internal sense of "I don't measure up because I don't want to/can't do 
    > what she is doing". 

    They MAY also have been reacting to an internal sense of "Tami acts like
    she thinks she's better than we are because she's playing basketball
    with the guys.  That's not very nice of her."  As mistaken as they may
    have been about this, it would explain their hostility in a situation
    where Tami herself was doing nothing but trying to be friendly and have
    a good time.

    > I personally feel that Tami has a right to be upset because these 
    > other women were flat out of line.  

    OF COURSE Tami has a right to be upset about what they said.  These
    women also had a right to be upset at Tami (for whatever they perceived
    to be the behavior that wasn't "nice" in their eyes.)

    Getting back to the question of "how to handle" incidents like these -
    what I'm suggesting is that Tami may want to consider their perspective
    if she intends to spend more time with this group of people.

    Tami mentioned that one of the women in question had been in the group
    for 4-5 years.  Now Tami is in the group.  If a positive resolution is
    not found, then the group has a bunch of hostility and confrontations
    in store (as a result of Tami's entrance to the group.)

    Tami could fist fight these women or one-up them with her own "catty"
    (as she and you put it) remarks to get back at these women for what
    happened - or she could be quietly furious every time she sees them.

    OR - she could stop to understand what might have been really bothering
    these women (without just writing them off as "catty") and find a way
    to have fun playing basketball without generating a bunch of hostility
    in the group because of it.

    The whole point is "fun" (isn't it?)  If Tami wants a pleasant future
    with the people in this group, it seems smarter to try to understand
    what happened rather than to plan on "dealing" with them via future
    confrontations (as Tami suggested some notes back.)
    
    Tami did ask for input about this situation, after all.

    >As someone else mentioned, the "ME:" and "THEM:" descriptions in the
    >basenote sounded a bit judgmental about the other women's lack of
    >participation in the basketball game:

    >	"Them:  Passive, leaders, not outgoing, 'prim and proper' from 
    >	the old school believing women should watch not participate, as 
    >	not to get their hands soiled or nails broken."

    >Perhaps the women sensed Tami's opinion of them during the game (who
    >knows?)
      I'm not going to disagree with you on this.  When I read the basenote
    I did find that to be rather black and white.  But I agree with the
    principle behind that in that there is an "unspoken" stereotyping by
    women of women of what is ladylike and unladylike behavior.  Playing
    basketball with the guys is not considered "ladylike" by alot of women.
     
    >> What I hear Tami saying is that she didn't appreciate what this other 
    >> woman and her mother-in-law said about her and in *my* mind these two 
    >> women are uncomfortable because Tami is not allowing herself to be 
    >> stereotyped.  

    >It's also possible that they were uncomfortable because they believed
    >that Tami was stereotyping "THEM" (as "prim and proper," etc.) because
    >they did chose NOT to play basketball.
       I'm not going to disagree with this either, maybe Tami was.  But I
    haven't picked that up in her notes.  What I picked up is, "I was being
    who I am, they were being who they are.  I didn't make the catty
    remark, I didn't comment on them not joining the game, so why am I
    being attacked for who I am?"
    
    >> I've met lots of women who look down on other women who play basketball 
    >> with the guys, etc.  For not doing the gender specific stuff, like 
    >> sitting on the sidelines and watching the men play the game.

    >Perhaps the women felt that Tami was looking down on "THEM" for NOT being
    >in the game (while Tami saw herself as being "loved" by all the guys for
    >being in the game.)
        Then what we are talking about here is jealousy by the women who
    weren't playing the game.  I also feel that Tami was just being
    herself.  I just don't hear Tami looking down on "THEM".  I heard that
    Tami accepted these other women not playing, was true to herself and
    did what she wanted to do and then got attacked for it.  Sorry, but I
    still feel the other women were out of line.
    
    >> I feel like the women who made the "catty" remarks are reacting to an 
    >> internal sense of "I don't measure up because I don't want to/can't do 
    >> what she is doing". 

    >They MAY also have been reacting to an internal sense of "Tami acts like
    >she thinks she's better than we are because she's playing basketball
    >with the guys.  That's not very nice of her."  As mistaken as they may
    >have been about this, it would explain their hostility in a situation
    >where Tami herself was doing nothing but trying to be friendly and have
    >a good time.
         Agreed.
    
    >> I personally feel that Tami has a right to be upset because these 
    >> other women were flat out of line.  

    >OF COURSE Tami has a right to be upset about what they said.  These
    >women also had a right to be upset at Tami (for whatever they perceived
    >to be the behavior that wasn't "nice" in their eyes.)
         I disagree.  Again, I feel these women are reacting out of
    jealousy and their own insecurity and that is the issue they need to
    deal with.  Not verbally attacking Tami as not being "Nice".
    
    >Getting back to the question of "how to handle" incidents like these -
    >what I'm suggesting is that Tami may want to consider their perspective
    >if she intends to spend more time with this group of people.
       Ok, I agree with the principle.  But I don't feel that Tami has to
    put herself aside to be accepted by this group of people.  Tami needs
    to stay true to Tami and do what she feels is right for her.  To me it
    sounds like she had lots of support from the other members of the
    group.  
    
    >OR - she could stop to understand what might have been really bothering
    >these women (without just writing them off as "catty") and find a way
    >to have fun playing basketball without generating a bunch of hostility
    >in the group because of it.
        Again, agreed in principle.  But Tami is not the one creating the
    hostility, the other women are.  Yes, after a comment like that I would
    probably be hostile to the person who made it.  I personally would try
    to find the underlying motive (which I feel in this case is jealousy)
    and then decide how to handle it from there.  Maybe go out for lunch
    with this other women and point blank ask why the comment was made and
    what can they do to resolve it.  Sometimes just accepting the other
    person for who they are and being nice works wonders.  Tami's role
    (IMHO) here is to not buy into this garbage with anger, but with a
    positive attitude and with a sense of self-confidence.  Maybe Tami
    could say "I'm sorry you don't see me as nice, would you mind telling
    me why?".  There aren't any easy answers on how to confront a situation
    like this.
    
    >The whole point is "fun" (isn't it?)  If Tami wants a pleasant future
    >with the people in this group, it seems smarter to try to understand
    >what happened rather than to plan on "dealing" with them via future
    >confrontations (as Tami suggested some notes back.)
        Agreed.
    
    Karen

    My perspective on this has to do with a long history of non-traditional
    jobs ("doing what the guys do" at any given company, rather than what
    most of the women were doing at the time.)
    
    At one company, I was an engineering assistant and test technician in
    a computer manufacturing environment (where I tested circuit boards
    and changed the design for the engineers/company_owners on one of the
    boards we manufactured.)
    
    All the engineers, engineering assistants and test technicians (except
    me) were male.  All the managers and company owners were male.  All
    the assemblers, secretaries and typists were female.  The gender
    divisions were absolutely rigid all the way down the line (except for
    me.)  The year was 1979.
    
    In one sense, I thought "YAY, I have a well-paid fun job, and I'm the
    first and only woman in this role in the company!"  On the other hand,
    I saw how other women watched my attitude towards them - so I had to
    ask myself why I'd taken the job (in a situation like that.)  I'd had
    other non-traditional jobs that weren't quite so rigidly divided along
    gender lines.
    
    I decided that I really, really liked the work (just as Tami really,
    really likes to play basketball) and I wasn't out to put anyone else
    down for NOT being a woman in a non-traditional job (just as I'm sure
    Tami doesn't actually look down on anyone for not playing basketball.)
    
    Luckily for me, the other women there realized quickly that I just
    wanted to do my job and be friends with everyone.  As time passed,
    some of them told me how surprised they were to see a woman hired for 
    my particular job (and how quite a few of the women thought it was a
    wonderful sign of changing times and were very happy about it!)
    
    If they'd treated me with hostility, I would have wanted to understand
    why and to seek a positive solution (which is why I'm suggesting this
    to Tami now.)
    
    For what it's worth...

    It sure seems to me like you just answered Tami's question and gave her
    a positive way to go about it.
    
    Karen

    RE: .46  Karen

    Thanks!
    

    Gee, your welcome!  :-)
    
    Karen

.32 HAYWARD 

>    I'm getting the impression that you believe I deserved to be treated
>    maliciously.  The point is I did not, why don't you believe me?

Of course I don't believe you deserve to be treated maliciously. 
As to believing you ... well ... gosh ... um ... on a scale of
1 to 100, my belief scale registers about midpoint.  

None of us are in here building truth tables for every note we read,
and I'm sure we all contradict ourselves quite often, even in the same
note. But to my eye -- considering all of 1215.* -- your remarks have
too many contradictory notions for me to fully believe what you are
saying.  How can I?   You contradict yourself, so how can I know what
to believe?  Maybe go with the even numbered notes, and ignore the odd?

While I believe that you believe what you are saying in any given
note, it doesn't really matter because you will present a
contradictory view or interpretation in a few more notes. 
See .28 if you want to see what I mean. Or, consider the simplest
case in the whole string:

     "passive, leaders"

No! NO!  Those two terms cannot be used to describe the same set of
people.  Period.  By definition and connotation, those two words do
not validly apply to one set of people. I don't actually care which
term applies, but I do find it baffling that you're willing to apply
both terms simultaneously. 

The statements you make differ note to note, depending on the current
focus.  I can't help but wonder if your demeanor towards people
differs from situation to situation ... that your view of a given
thing varies according to the focus of the moment. 

>    But this doesn't capture the essence
>    of this note.  If you're trying to help me I'll need more information.
    
The essence of my reaction is that I believe you yourself are unsure
of exactly what you think. Consequently, what you think changes a lot.
I also think you allow yourself to see things from your own point of
view too much.  The purpose of this note is to discuss communication
and confrontation, but the bulk of the text has been concentrated on
the flaws of those who have been disagreeble to you, and how well you
have behaved and how unwonderfully they have. 

When I think of all the people we've talked about here -- Molly (who
was wrong), Andy's mother, the non-participants and leaders who are
jealous of those unike them -- I can't help but feel that you are
being too one-sided. 

I don't think your goal is to deal successfully via communication or
confrontation.  I think your goal is to prove you're in the right.
Different goals.