Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    The following is IMHO.  
    
    I take all suicide threats seriously.  I also believe the theory that
    people who are talking about suicide really don't want to attempt, they
    want to be heard and they want help.  It's the ones that don't talk
    about it, who you see one day and the next you hear that they committed
    suicide, that are the hard ones to deal with.  (I had a hard time
    structuring that sentence, hope it makes sense)
    
    For me, the people who are talking about suicide really are reaching
    the end of their rope.  They want and need to be heard.  Maybe they
    need some advice or a direction to go in.  Maybe they just need to know
    they are valued.  Maybe all they need is to know that someone cares. 
    But most of all what they need is to be listened to.
    
    Karen

    I am not really comfortable with the discussion of suicide in a public
    forum.  I feel that there are many folks that are on the edge and
    comments or philosophies about the subject could put the person over.
    
    The few times I have dealt with friends feeling desperate I have always
    encouraged them to seek professional help.  
    
    Armchair philosophy on this subject could waste a very valuable life.

I agree with Karen's reply in .1, I believe her statements hit the nail on the
head. Further to her opinion, the people who are reaching out via talking
suicide, because of pride, self esteem or for some other reason, have not shared
their difficulties with anyone who have been understanding or sympathetic
enough. I guess it's away to break the ice or demonstrate how serious the
situation is at that time, at least to the person contemplating suicide.

I read someplace that most people at one point in their live's have
contemplated suicide when the world appears to be upside down.
Separation/divorce is a good example, when things are really down and out,
depression sets in and the thought can pass your mind (I guess that would depend
on who the dumper and dumpee happens to be).

In the same reference, suicide does not occur when the person bottoms out during
depression, it is apparently on the way back up that is the dangerous time.

John

    I react seriously.
    
    I suggest they get help.
    
    I tell them they can call me anytime.
    
    I try to help them see how valuable they are, and to look past whatever
    is making them feel like committing suicide, if that is possible. 
    Often when things look hopeless, they are not.
    
    I've had a friend commit suicide, and it was hard not to think I should
    have done something more, but he did not come to me nor did I have any
    idea he was thinking about suicide.
    
    I've felt hopeless, and written a lot about suicide, but never truly
    planned to kill myself (mostly in my late teens and early 20s).  Often
    I just felt superfluous to life, useless, hopeless, unloved, and
    unlovable.  
    
    -Jody
    

    For persons who have had close friends or relatives committ suicide
    or attempt such:
    
    Weren't you overboiling mad at them?  That's how it makes me feel.
     Maybe because, I would feel so helpless.  Angry that they may have
    tried to manipulate by their threats.  You can only be so sympathetic
    so often.  Then you just don't want to believe them anymore or you
    want to slap them for scaring you.  But, then again, you can't be
    dead for just a little while.
    
    For a young child, that threatens to kill herself/himself, how do
    you challenge them? when it seems that in fact, they are challenging
    you.

    re .5, it seems to me that by getting angry at someone who verbally
    contemplates suicide you would only be reinforcing their apparent
    belief that the world is not a pleasant place to be.  Mention being so
    desperately unhappy that you're thinking of suicide and the person you
    tell yells at you and maybe slaps you?  Gee, what a loving world to
    struggle to make a life in!
    
    I've briefly thought of suicide before at times when I felt that I was
    trapped in a corner and had no way to escape from a miserable
    situation, such as the prospect of not being able to find a job and
    winding up on the street or trapped by financial considerations in an
    unhappy relationship.  Fortunately, I've always had at least one close
    friend who was willing to take the time to talk to me and remind me that
    there are people who love me and aspects of life that I enjoy very
    much, and I've always snapped out of it.
    
    Of course, I don't make a habit of getting that depressed, and I'm
    normally a fairly cheerful person.  I suppose it might be different
    when dealing with a person who mentions suicide on a regular, on-going
    basis.
    
    Lorna
    

re: .5,

As in .6, getting angry with a person who is already contemplating suicide can
only make things worst. The person is already feeling bad enough for personal
reasons of their own. This may not be real or significant to you, but they are
to the person in question.

I lost someone very close about 16 years ago suddenly, yes, I was saddened by
the event, but was never angry. It is something that you certainly do not
forget.

John

    How can you get angry at someone who is so desperate that they're
    willing to call it quits? I had a friend who tried to commit suicide
    and was fortunately unsuccessful -- no warning signs, she SEEMED
    relatively happy, etc. Instead of getting angry, I had to wonder if I
    was a true friend - was I REALLY listening to what she was telling me?
    It made me a lot more sensitive to my friends and what they were truly
    saying - not with their words, but with their actions, moods, body
    language, etc.....and I DEFINATELY let them know that I'll always be
    there to help them NO MATTER WHAT. I think a lot of people who commit
    suicide feel they are too ashamed to talk to their friends, get some
    support...
    
    kristin
    

    My reaction to a suicide person would be.... of extreme pity towards
    that person! I would, first of all, LISTEN, to that person's problems,
    and then try to help... a person who comes to suicide has given up, has
    shown his or her inability to deal with life's problems, and that is a
    sad thing to see it happen... an adult person should be able to deal
    with his/her own problems derived from his/her own decisions.  Life, to me,
    is sacred, and cannot be terminated by our own hand, but by GOD
    himself.  (of course this is my belief, the base note asked for our
    reactions to deal with suicide and this is my answer).  I want to
    believe that we are brought up to this world for a purpose more
    important than just breathe and live for a few years and then...
    nothing! "my" purpose gives me a much deeper reason to my own
    existence, and that same reason prohibits tampering with one's life.
    
    Ana
    

I hate to admit it but I have to agree with .5 people who commit suicide make 
me angry.  They quit.  That's the bottom line.  

I admit I've wondered about what death was like.  But never have I gotten so 
desperate that I'd think of taking my own life.  Now don't get things confused,
I had a friend in High School commit suicide.  I was saddened by the experience 
and news of it.  I felt sorry for his family and myself for the lose of him.
But, I was angry with him for doing it.  For giving up hope when he had so many 
friends and relatives who cared about him, and whould be willing to help.  If 
he had said something.  If there's a chance I'll get to meet him in the so 
called "here-after" I have every intention of punching him in the nose.  
He left a note behind that simply said, I can't take this anymore.  Then 
cut school one afternoon took a bath at home and pulled a radio into the tub 
with him.  Never explainging why.  I went a long time trying to figure out if 
it was because of something I did or said.  And I'm sure that his parents and 
sister still have the same quetions nagging at them.  As time progressed I
learned to deal with it.  It's a part of life and that's how it is.  There 
are no answers availabe because only HE knew what he meant.  

Yes, I still get angry over it.  How dare he leave without giving me a chance
to be the friend I could have been if he'd only talked to me.

The pain and frustration have faded over the years.  But the anger of it will
always be there.  

Skip

    Angry??  You bet!!  I have a very close friend who, for years, was
    going through severe depression due to many circumstances going on in
    her life and extending from her childhood.  No matter how several of us
    tried to help, she just would not help herself (I know I'm leaving out
    lots of detail and it may seem that I/we are heartless, but trust that
    trying to help someone for 5 years w/out them hleping themselves is a
    dead end) and this makes you angry!  I can remember not wanting to be
    around her and avoiding visiting/calling her....I still had lots of
    compassion for her, but, gee, when someone just won't help themselves
    there is NOTHING you can do!  During this time she NEVER said she
    wanted to take her life.....but we all knew she was heading in that
    direction.  We didn't give up on her though and I'm  not sure she
    survived through it all because of us or what.....
    
    After about 5 years of this "depression" she did mention that she
    wanted to try an take her life (I believed her) and she went so far as
    to tell me how she intended on doing it (the cry for HELP). 
    Fortunately I knew that she was scheduled to see her doctor in a few
    days, so I called him.  I didn't mention it to her then husband cause I
    felt he wouldn't do anyting about it as he didn't believe anything was
    wrong with her (probably cause he was a large part of the problem). 
    These past 3 years have been the most rewarding for her on all levels
    of her life!!  It's too bad that we can't always recognize who is in
    this state of mind....so sad.
    
    Sometimes when I think about it I still get angry.....her turmoil was
    not hers alone, a lot of us shared her pain and it would have been very
    unfair of her to leave us wondering whta we didn't do that we perhaps 
    could have done.....(did that come out right??)  The people left behind
    are left hurting....
    
    Lastly, I honestly believe that teenagers DO NOT comprehend suicide as
    "final".....they don't really understand "death" as final
    either....they seem to think they are immortal....this is a topic that
    needs understanding, and dicussion may help save a few from the actual
    act...
    

re: last couple,

I don't know, maybe you have to be there to understand how low you can get and
something inside kicks in to drive you over the edge. Sometimes people may be
there to support you, but they cannot solve your problem. The support makes you
feel better, but the problem continues to eat away at you. Next thing you know
that person may check out to stop the pain.

The human mind is very complex and capable of many things, just look at what
steps you take for granted in driving a car. Now program a computer to do the
same tasks you perform automatically. When the computer's input sensors get
overloaded, the computer dies on the spot from overload. The human mind can
break down the same way when it becomes overloaded and the person terminates.

Anyway, just my thoughts........

John

re: .11,

Sometimes that is just half the battle, if they won't help them selves, that
battle has been lost already. Very sad and affects others, but you can only do
what you can do.

    No one can control the behavior of another person -- if someone is
    determined to take their own life, we can provide support, love and
    offer advice, but in the end the individual has to want to help
    themself.
    
    My husband's mother took her life nine years ago.  Everyone always
    admired how strong, smart, and "together" she was...  Yes, there is
    anger.  You wish you could go back and change things.  You wish you
    could ask why.  You wish you could help.  But she protected herself
    from letting any of us help.  She didn't want help, or wasn't in touch
    with her inner-self enough to ask for help.  None of us knew what she
    was really going through, or we would have been happy to do whatever we
    could have.  The baggage she's left her children with is taking a long
    time to recognize and unpack.  But we've stopped spending time on
    wishing things were different, and started living again.  It just would
    have been nice to have her around...
    
    My heart goes out to anyone that can relate to our story.
           
    -Janice

    re last few, I still don't think anger is the emotion that should be
    felt.  Maybe compassion and sadness.  I think that when someones
    mental state becomes so out-of-control that they commit suicide that we
    have no more right to be angry with them than we do with someone who
    dies of cancer or AIDS or any other disease.  Afterall, most people
    once wanted to live and be happy, but sometimes they just can't deal
    with the blows they're dealt.
    
    I do think that teenagers who mention suicide often don't really
    comprehend that they would ending everything forever.  A couple of
    times in anger and tears my daughter, who is normally very happy, said
    she might as well kill herself.  I immediately told her that I loved
    her more than anything in the world and that it would break my heart and 
    ruin my life if she did that, and both times it seemed to make her feel a
    lot better.  Maybe that's all some people want to hear.  Of course, I
    also realize that there are some people who are really sick, not just
    momentarily depressed, and maybe they can't be helped.  
    
    Lorna
      

    Are any of you aware of the research going on to find a chemical or
    nutrient basis for depression?  We all seem to be assuming that the
    depressed person is perverse for not behaving as we who are not
    suffering expect.   I believe that within five to ten years we will be
    able to trace many depressions back to biology.  That doesn't mean
    we'll have a cure, but we may be able to eliminate the emotionalism
    about suicide.
    
    Think about it,
    
    Dick

    I am aware of this research and participated in a study at MIT around
    it. 
    
    

    My dad was a teacher for over thirty years. Growing up, especially within 
    this last decade, he would occasionally be notified, as were all the other
    teachers at the school, of several apparent suicides of either a student 
    or former student of the school. No one there was directly responsible for
    the students' deaths, yet the emotional trauma it put them all through was
    all the same severe, to say the least. 
    
    My dad would answer the phone in the kitchen where he loved to cook, and 
    from the living room I would hear a low sounding "Oh no..." from him in 
    the kitchen. He wasn't the same for a while after one of these incidents. 
    He cared about all of his students that much.
    
    Now, I'm teaching drama in Framingham, and I care about all of my students 
    in much the same way as he cared for his...I dread the day I hear the phone
    ring, and it turns out to be one of those calls. I don't know if I could 
    handle such a situation as well as my father did. So, I listen to my
    students...really listen...and if I ever hear something "out of the 
    ordinary" or what would appear to be a hint that they were "planning
    something" like suicide...you bet I'll try to help, if I can. :'-)
    
    

    With regard to the "appropriateness" of anger as a reaction:  
    
    Anger is part of the grieving process, and while it may not seem
    to serve any useful purpose for the victim, it is very important
    to the one feeling the anger.
    
    Feelings are feelings; they have no moral weight, and should not be
    confused with judgments.
    
    					andrew

   As a person who spent most of my life in mild chronic depression
   I have been on both sides of the discussion.  I have been angry
   at someone who took their life and thought about it myself. For
   me suicide was never a viable option but I gave me one more choice
   when there seemed none available.  Suicide is the ultimate risk
   and it allows for the realization that there are other choices
   that may be risky, dangerous, or plain unpleasent.  It lies there 
   and provides juice for the creative process that give me the leap
   of faith solution that frequently works or opens the oportunity
   for another better solution.  Would I? Not likely.  I have changed
   the elements of my life that were part of the root cause. 

   For others it may be different, I suspect most need attention or
   help in attaining a tangable solution to their pain.

   Peace,
   Allison

     
    About 3 months ago, my friend's ex-boyfriend's father died of cancer. 
    5 days later, his mother killed herself.  Apparently, she couldn't
    handle the thought of being alone and without her husband.  I agree
    with those that call people like these quitters.  She took the easy way
    out of a tough spot.  She was only looking out for her own interests. 
    She did not take into consideration the effects of those she left
    behind; her 21 year old son who has not had a nightmare-less night
    sleep since, or her 20 yr-old daughter who just gave birth to who would
    have been her first granddaughter or her 15 yr-old son who found her
    slouched against the back door, dead, when he came home from school.
    Let's not forget the other family members and friends.  
    
    Every time I see Rick, I feel so bad for him.  I never even met his
    mother, and I am  incredibly mad at her.  If she couldn't go on for
    herself, what about those that loved her?  If she couldn't go on on her
    own, she could have look for help from those that would have given it.
    
    Suicide is not an answer, it's a problem that needs the utmost
    attention if recognized.  
    
    I just had to vent.  Thanx.
    

      Being from New York, I have an opinion on this, also since my wife's
    step-father took his life February 1991, I feel I qualify to give you
    my thoughts.
    	My wife's mother died in July 1990 of natural causes. Charlie (her
    husband/my wife's step-father) who was always level headed and rarely
    showing much emotion seemed to get a grip on his life soon after her
    death since her death was not sudden. Because he always had a healthy,
    happy attitude towards everything he seemed OK, he even started dating
    a gal he's known for some time since they were both into sailing, plus
    living in a small town everyone knew everyone. One thing led to another
    and then out of the blue (and 5 months after the funeral) he announces
    he's getting engaged! HOLY MACARONI! So you say to yourself well, as
    long as he's happy. Fact was, he wasn't and after he took his life two
    months after the engagement announcement. Fact was he couldn't get
    over Joan's death and was actually using this other woman to fill
    Joan's shoes. He kept everything inside and opened up to no one and it 
    consumed him. He NEVER spoke of taking his life either! Not once. 
    Well, this relationship wasn't working the way he expected and instead of 
    confiding in the family that loved him, he took matters into his own hands. 
    	With this background you may understand "why" I say that suicide is
    the cowards way out of problems. Not only that, but in my opinion it
    has to be the MOST *selfish* act anyone can do. Charlie left 4 children
    (all but one lives out of state), all over the age of 30. We wanted to
    talk to him about this marrage since it seemed so fast after Joan's
    death, but were advised against it by his boyhood friend and minister at 
    the church he played organ at. His feelings were that anyone wanting to
    get married has made an adult decision and should not be allowed to be
    talked out of it. Being the stubborn person I "can be" I should not have 
    listened and confronted him because all the children were concerned for
    his happiness. Maybe it may have opened him up, but...  I'll never know. 
    Having seen what suicide does to the people and children left behind...   
    everyone loses! And when it's my time to go...  I'm gonna kick his butt,
    although I feel I'll have to stand in line for that.
    
    As for me, I'm keeping things held together on my end because there is no 
    other choice in life. It's been said before, life really is too short
    as it is...   make the right decisions, never lose your sense of humor
    and never lose the fight to stay alive and kicking!
    
    				Rock on,
    					Fred

	The first step to successfully taking your life is to convince
	yourself that nobody needs you anymore, or that you are in
	fact a burden and those you love would be better off without
	you.

	I would imagine that the subject of the previous note did just
	that.  His wife was gone, and his children were all grown
	up and spread across the country.  I would imagine it wasn't
	a tough rationalization to make.

	Obviously, he was wrong.  Lots of people were left behind who
	really would have liked to have him around.

	Something to rememeber, I guess.

    
    like it or not, the life was his to take.
    
    what right has anyone to pass judgement on a suicides'
    motivation?
    
    only slaves' lives belong to someone else..

    If we can assume that the person who's thinking about suicide is:
    a.) in excellent health
    b.) has everything going for them
    ...  but feels strongly about doing it anyway...
    
    then in this case (and this case only) it has to be in my mind THE
    MOST selfish thing anyone can do!
    
    My father-in-law took his life last year at this time as did a good
    friends mother just two weeks ago! What the heck? My father-in-law had
    everything going for him (or so we all thought). He was always on the 
    quiet side and after my mother-in-law died (of natural causes) in 1990
    he was completely empty and felt totally unproductive (so he said in
    the note he left us...   nice huh?). There's alot more to this than I'd
    like to say (or have time for), but he didn't even talk about this idea
    to anyone...   he just suddenly did it! To walk into this situation one
    day after work was trematic (to say the least) for my sister-in-law. If
    only he gave us a hint, if only he asked for help in *any* way, or
    a hint we could all "pick up and understand" if only he trusted his own 
    children to explain his feelings. He wanted to be with my mother-in-law 
    who died less that 10 months when he decided to take his own life. He
    had everything...   or so *we* thought.  

   Re:   <<< Note 1213.25 by WEDOIT::ABATELLI >>>

I understand the consensus here, but I'd like to stick up for
the suicide.  In my opinion, if someone condemns the suicide for
his or her "selfish" action, that smacks of feeling that they
"own" someone else's life.  I think one has to confront his or
her perceived sense of loss as a potential problem of excessive
dependence.

Dick

    re:  .25
    
    Sorry...  I disagree! If there is truly a family bond, one needs to
    push the limits of that love. He had a family that loved him more
    than he realized and he chose to bypass the people that loved him
    the most. Sorry...  I disagree. Life goes on agreed, but unlike some
    he had "everything to live for". He just didn't see i and that is a
    shame.

   Re:   <<< Note 1213.27 by WEDOIT::ABATELLI "MESA BOOGIE modified by PEAVEY!" >>>

Take a look at what you wrote, please.

    >...push the limits of that love. He had a family that loved him more
    >than he realized and he chose to bypass the people that loved him
    >the most.
    
You pointed out that his family "loved him more than he
realized".  If he didn't know how much he was loved, how can we
condemn him for decisions made in ignorance?  From his point of
view, nobody cared.  If he was mistaken, was that his fault?  I
find it hard to blame someone for not "knowing how much they are
loved".  I would be more likely to blame the people who weren't
able to express their love clearly enough to penetrate his
world.  Not knowing either, I can't judge anyone in any specific
case, obviously.

Dick