Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Anon,
    I have a couple of questions.  Has your husband gone through treatment
    for drug abuse?  Does he regularly attend Narcotics Anonymous meetings
    or Cocaine Anonymous meetings?  It may be well and fine that he has
    admitted that drugs caused the break up of your marriage, but unless he
    is working a recovery program, drugs could very easily become an issue
    again.  I have real concerns for you allowing him back in your life if
    he not working a recovery program of some kind.  
    
    This is not an easy issue to be dealing with.  It sounds like you have
    a wonderful new relationship.  I would also suggest that you attend
    some Nar-Anon meeting (same as Al-Anon) meetings so you can keep the
    focus on yourself and help you decide what YOUR wants and needs are. 
    Only you can decide what is best for you and your daughter.
    
    I hope this helps.
    
    Karen

    Oh, one more thing, in answer to your questions.  Yes, drugs/alcohol do
    cause people to do things they normally wouldn't sober.  Unless, he is
    working a strong recovery program, there is every possibility that he
    will return to his old ways.  Addiction is a bear to overcome and is
    almost never achieved on one's own.  The man you fell in love with is
    still there, who you are seeing is the addiction.
    
    I guess what I am trying to say is bottom line you are dealing with
    drug addiction.  From what I read in your note, when he started using
    cocaine, that is when all of the changes happened.  Until he is ready
    to work a 12-step program, I personally would be very hesitant to
    resume a relationship with him.
    
    This is all IMHO of course.  I will go back to being read-only now! :-)
    
    Karen

    
    	This is a hard question to answer with out sounding to harsh.  I
    	hope I don't offend anyone but *I* think your ex just wants to
    	get back like you said, because you *are* happy now and have another
    	wonderful man to share your life with.  I'm sure he is very unhappy
    	because he realizes what he did and the life he chose but that is
    	*his* fault.  Are you happy now?  Ask your self this too...  Can
    	you honestly *forgive* and *forget* what he did to you?  Remember
    	that a marriage will not last if you keep these feelings of deep hurt
    	in side of what he did to you.  I personally can understand that
    	you still love your ex but with more time away from this man you 
    	will see this love fade away.   From experience too these people
    	don't change, they may want to and they do to for awhile but if
    	he really has changed or wants to, he better see a councelor and
    	look more deeply in himself.  People do distructive things for a
    	reason and he needs to find that out.  You have a daughter to think
    	about and want the *best* for her.  This other man in your life
    	sounds like a good person for her to be with and you.  Your ex can 
    	still be a good father to your daughter too, he doesn't have to be 
    	living with you to do that.  I have lots of single parent friends and 
    	both parents are wonderful parents to their childern and they love 
    	them just as much.  I just hate seeing people hurt and you are happy
    	now or at least seem to be from your message so maybe all you need
    	is more time away from your ex and your feelings will change.  So
    	many people put up with less and it doesn't have to be that way.
    	
    	I had a relationship with a very confused man once for two years
    	and thank god he left because it was very hard for me to let go but
    	let me tell you I'm glad I stayed away because now I have the best
    	man I could ever have and I'm *very* happy.
    
     	Well' I hope I helped is some way and please if you ever want to
    	talk to me personally just drop me a line.       
    	
    
    	Zina

I am the original base noter--

In response, he did attend some 12-Step classes but only for a short-time.
(About 6 months)  I guess what my problem is, is that I can't let go of
the past.  I keep remembering how wonderful our relationship was before
all this happened.  But, at the same time I can also remember all those
nights staying up until 4:00a.m. crying because he never came home.  When
he did he was always in a constant state of denial.  He would deny being
with other women when I had testimony from scores of people.  (Even the
women)  I wish I could just forget about all the good times and keep
remembering all the nights I stayed up ALONE, and all the other hell I
went through for almost 3 years.  There were definitely more bad times than
good.  I guess I have been miserable for so long that I am having a very
hard time letting/allowing myself to be happy.  I keep thinking that something
is going to happen to screw things up.  I keep wondering if I will drive this
man in my life now away from me with all my inner insecurities.  I still 
cringe at the thought of my ex with other women although the other man in my
life makes me very *happy* when I'm with him.  I don't understand why I have
these feelings.  I wish I could let go but I can't seem to.....

    
    
    
    	Don't worry about your feelings, it's funny in a way but when
    	one has had a rough life or relationship they get used to living
    	the hard way and it's *very* scary to change.  It's just not
    	easy and who needs more work right?  Well it's worth it once you
    	make that first step.  I had a *very* disfunctional family life
    	and like I said in .3 I had my share of falling in love with
    	men that had *major* troubles.  But I got away from that and *made*
    	myself with, the help of a wonderful councelor and my husband.
    	They both helped me and I feel great now.  Changing is not easy but
    	like I said, once it's started and with help you will be a *very* 
    	happy and confident person.  Think of your daughter and how you
    	want to be a good example for her to follow.  You want her to 
    	grow up to be a strong young lady.  Follow what *you* want in your
    	life and how *you* want to life.  Don't feel bad about not choosing
    	to go back to him (if you choose that) because he is a adult and
    	chose the life he now lives.  Either way I hope you will be happy
    	and your daughter.
    
    	Again I'm sorry if I sound so one sided but I'm been there in a way
    	(I never married any of these men, just long relationships
    	with them) but I'm so glad I chose to live for me and not them, I
    	would have never met the man I am with now if I didn't decide make
    	that first move.  Also deep down a person can not respect another
    	if they never stand up for themselfs.  (In my opinion)
    
    	Take care!
    	     
    
    	Zina

    I am going to suggest Nar-Anon or  Al-Anon meetings again.  The
    meetings will help you to focus on yourself and learn to detach from
    him, not in anger but in love.  It is so easy to buy into the addict
    and his wants and needs and to put them first.  I agree with the other
    reply that he sees you happy with this other person and it threatens
    him on some level.  You deserve happiness and deserve a man in your
    life that will be there for you.  The meetings will also help you let
    go of the past.  If he's not going to meetings, then he isn't facing
    his addiction, and yeah, I know that that is black and white.  And if
    he's not going to meetings the chances of him relapsing are high.  
    
    It's ok to remember the good times and it's ok to want those back.  You
    can have those good times again, it just may not be with him.  Be
    patient with yourself and if you feel the need to just talk, feel free
    to contact me off-line.  I understand where you are at and what is
    happening and I'm a great listener!
    
    Karen

    Boy this is a tough one to answer.  Part of me wants to say give the
    guy a chance and part of me says the damage has been done and it will
    always be there to worry over.
    
    I guess the real question in it is, is he still actively seeking help
    with his problem?  IF so then he's probably serious about the things
    he's saying.  But if he's only attempted a few meetings over a 6 month 
    period.  Somehow I can't accept that he's 'finished' with the drugs. 
    It seems to me that it takes a lot more than just going through the
    program for a relativly short period to 'kick' the problem.  I've known 
    people to attempt 12 step programs, think they were finished with the 
    problem and stop only to resume the problems later on.  This doesn't
    mean it will happen with him, but I would always wonder about it.
    
    Which brings me to the next question.  After all the things he's done, 
    would you be able to give him your trust in the future?  100%??? 
    That's something you'll have to dig hard into yourself about.  Because
    if you can't give him that trust, then you'll either have to accept
    living a life with him filled with worrys and wondering.  Or decide
    that it's better for you NOT to reestablish the relationship.  Love is
    a wonderful thing, but it needs to have trust too or it could be
    nothing more then a big mistake in the long run.  
    
    For what it's worth, that's what I would consider first of all if I
    were considering getting back with someone who had hurt me that way.
    
    Skip

    With the way your life is going now, you'll have to decide whether
    you're willing to risk being hurt by this ex again.  It is a real
    possibility should you decide to let this dude back into your life
    intimately.
    
    If you decide that you are able to handle this risk, then you needn't
    make a decision as to whether you're going to remarry or not.  You
    may just keep in touch with your ex in whatever fashion you feel
    desireable.  Then time will tell.

There's one other thing to consider here, and so far I haven't noticed
that anyone has addressed it.  Will it really be beneficial for your
ex if you take him back?  He has a serious problem, gets himself
back on track (maybe), and now wants to come back into the environment
where it all started.  Will this contribute to a backslide?

I don't mean to be hard on you, but some people are manipulators,
and some people are enablers.  Is there something about the "chemistry"
of your relationship that will enable him to go back into his
old ways?

From what I've seen so far, you are struggling with a horrible guilt
about what to do.  You are trying to balance your happiness and your
needs with his.  Maybe the two are the same.  Just because he wants
to come back doesn't mean that it's the best for either him or you.
Or, maybe I'm as full of crap as a Christmas goose.  Either way,
it's probably worth considering.

Jerry

    
    For all its worth:
    
       If you REALLY gut honestly love him, do you have any choice?
    
    If your playing it back and forth in your mind, then maybe you 
    SHOULD move on.
    
    
    

    Seems like everyone is forgetting the wonderful man she's involved with
    now. Doesn't he deserve a "second chance" more than the jerk does?
    
    Ray

    I'm astounded at the advice begin given here.
    
    It's obvious to me that you should NOT take him back.  No, never,
    no way, not one little bit!
    
    1.  He's already shown that he can lie and break promises,
    	and has offered no evidence that he's changed.  Remember
    	what he promised when he married you!
    
    2.	He's made no offers of restitution (unless I missed them).
    
    3.	He may very well have AIDS, not to mention other health
    	problems, debts, legal problems, men named "Guido" after
    	him, friends from the drug days come to visit, etc.
    
    4.	As .11 mentions, you've made other commitments.
    
    I think you'd be crazy to go back.  If you value your life and
    your child's life, don't do this!
    
    Even the Ann Landers-style advice in such situations is "People
    don't change".
    
    Romance as the whole diet is fine in movies and books, but in real
    life it's just a spice.
    
    		-John Bishop

    I wholeheartedly agree with .12
    
    Good luck ...

    Thanks for that bit John.  Now for some true stories about people who 
    don't change.  
    
    Ready?  I've two Aunts.  One by marriage, one a blood relative.  The
    first one was married to a man who was an alcoholic.  When he went out 
    drinking he would come home and beat her.  BADLY!  She went to the
    hospital more then once for broken bones, cuts, bruises, etc.  
    He would come home and say how sorry he was when he sobered up, tht he
    would never do it again.  Then go out after work get drunk and break
    the promise.  One day, she said enough was enough.  He came home drunk
    that night, beat her again, then went into the bedroom and fell asleep.
    
    When he awoke the next morning, she had taken wire and wired his arms
    and legs to the bed posts and was standing over him with a baseball
    bat.  She worked him up one end and down the other.  Then told him if
    he ever came home drunk or laid a hand on her again, she would do the 
    same thing AGAIN.  He never touched a drop of alcohol again, and they 
    were happily married for 30 years after that.  HE tells the story of
    how she gave him the incentive to change his ways.  Until then HE had 
    not really cared one way or another.  
    
    The moral to this TRUE story is that with proper incentive anyone can
    change.
    
    The next story invovles my other Aunt.  She was a drug addict.  A
    sever drug addict.  She'd had a doctor who supported her habit with 
    perscriptions for money.  Finally one day after she'd depleted her bank 
    account to nothing and the landlord had served her with eviction
    papers,  she came to my father and asked him to help her get straight.
    She asked him to take her to a cabin her father owned and lock her into 
    a room.  He did so, nailing the windows shut and boarding them up.  The 
    doors to the cabin cleared the door ways by a good 5 inches.  High
    enough to put food under the door with no problem.  THey were made with 
    pinioned and split oak.  with heavy iron hinges holding them in place 
    and a drop latch that closed them.  He removed the handles from the
    inside of the door. Locked her in and she lived in that room for 2
    months.  My father tells about the screams she'd made, the howls and 
    anger, cursing and name calling.  And every time he'd reached the point 
    where he was ready to open the door and give her her pills, she'd say
    "If you do, I'll never forgive you!"  And he would stay out there and 
    listen to more curses and crys.  After the lst month she had pretty
    well gone through the worst of the withdrawels the second month was
    just because she didn't want to take any chances.  
    
    The moral of this TRUE Story is that if someone wants to change bad
    enough, nothing is too extreme.  
    
    People CAN change, the real questions are...
    
    Has HE changed  
    CAN she give the trust he's destroyed again.
    Who is the more important in her life, him or the guy she's seeing now.
    What are the best choices for HER.
    
    I'm sure you'll find lots of folks with stories about how they or
    someone close to them have changed once they realized they had a sever 
    problem, and committed themselves to making those changes.  
    
    
    Skip
    
    

    I have a minor disagreement with .12 -- the note states that people
    don't change.  I disagree; people do change, but it requires
    extraordinary circumstances, and extraordinary commitment from the
    person wanting to change.  Your ex has given no indication that either
    has occurred. And as another response has mentioned, you are already in
    what sounds like a much better (although, perhaps a more "boring")
    relationship.
    
    To the basenoter:
    
    Sounds like the "excitement" -- the rush, if you will --  of the first
    relationship still appeals to you.  If that's the case, then I suggest
    that you read "Women Who Love Too Much."
    
    					andrew

Ditto on .12 and double ditto on .15. AIDS does not discriminate and your
ex has put himself at risk. 

Run, do not walk away from your ex. then work on your goals. Give yourself
some time to get over your divorce. Get some good solid support, professional
support if needed, in addition to the groups that have been mentioned, 
a co-dependency group might help.  Explain to the other man you need to
work on these things before you can give yourself to someone else.

I've gone through a divorce, it's usually a longer healing process than
we imagined it would be. Give yourself time so you're not making decisions
under stress or an emotional seesaw. Your child depends on your choices. 
Good luck.

linda 

Long ago, I knew a relative, who messed up his life the same way. When the other
girls friends ran dry, he tried to make things nice nice with his wife again.
She did take him back in, but only for him to recharge and off he went again on
the same path once again after 8 months.

Well his wife at that point had nothing to do with him further, and after a couple
of years and being on the wrong side of the tracks came to his senses. He's now
married again with two kids, and from what I hear is doing great.

So people do change, but not always in the old environment they came from and it
takes time. Drugs can be very distructive, but sometimes the school of hard
knocks is what it takes to wake up some people.

Your new guy, if you really care about him, don't let your old feelings get in
the way of your happiness. Stand back, look at your self, if your truely happy
with what you have in your new found love, the answer should be pretty clear.

IMHO,

John