Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Hmmm, personal opinion is... she should be attending.  
    
    However, if the man is from a strong cathlic upbringing.  Where divorce
    and seperation are frowned on, it may be that he has 'learned' that
    such things are not acceptable.  I know from living in San Jose, that 
    in many of the traditional Mexican families, it is not abnormal for a 
    divorced man's wife to be included in his families functions as a
    member of the family and that his girlfriend, new wife, whatever is
    frowned upon if she attends.  Divorce is wrong in there culture and it 
    causes many clashes with the American acceptence of divorce.  Perhaps, 
    this is a similar situation?  
    
    Still, as I said, from a personal standpoint I should think she would
    be expected to attend such outtings and gatherings.  But there is
    another question at hand also, which may fit with what I said before, 
    the fact that he has been seperated a long period of time, but not yet 
    divorced.  Again, that would fit the experiences I'd discribed before.
    
    FWIW
    
    Skip

    re.1
    I don't see how being Catholic has anything to do with it.  I was
    raised Catholic but am no longer.  Anyway, just because of a divorce,
    doesn't have to mean a complete break off to the ex in family issues.
     I find it rather nice that an ex-inlaw would keep intouch with
    the ex-spouse.  Even more so with children involved.
    
    If I were a young child, maybe even an older child or even as an
    adult, I'd absolutely despise my still married parent bringing his
    girlfriend to our family get togethers.
    
    My sister-inlaw is in the exact same shoes as the basenoter's. 
    In one way I pity her and in another I have much disrespect for
    her.   Her beau goes home every night to his wife but romances the
    sister.  I feel this relationship is ill-health to all parties
    concerned, since no one is completely happy and each make demands
    on the other that can not be met.
                                     

    I agree with your feelings.  And it seems he is keeping a safe 
    distance from both of them.  By staying just separated, he does
    not have to make a TRUE commitment to your sister and he can still
    hold on to the wife.  Sure it's very positive for the children
    but if he is serious about your sister, he has to make changes and
    show her that she is #1 in his life.  I had a friend who hung on to
    a separated man for seven years and one day she finds out from a
    girl friend (who didn't know about the affair) that he left the wife
    and had his own apartment for several months. And of course that's
    when he broke up with her.  
    
    Don't give up, KEEP talking to her.   

    Cindy,
    
    There is Catholic and there is Catholic,  The Catholic religion frowns
    on divorce.  In some cultures, both present and historical its outlooks
    on divorce have caused many problems.  (It's one of the reason Henry
    the VIII had so many wives, the church refused to grant him divorce so,
    if you can't divorce them, kill them and be done).  Not all Catholic 
    Churches are this way.  Some take the stance that unless you were
    married and divorced by the church you aren't 'really' married or
    divorced.  In cultures where the catholic religion is a dominant factor
    in social values and soical outlooks, (Such as many Latin Cultures
    have), It is not uncommon for a man to seperate, but not divorce, his
    wife, and to avoid family problems simply keep the newfound woman in
    his live away from his family.  She is considerd more or less a tramp
    by the family.  (In olden days, the term 'mistress' would apply).  The 
    U.S. Catholic religion does not have the same social weight that it has
    in other countries and cultures.  The Philipines is another place where 
    the church carries much weight in the lives of the people.  Days such
    as Palm Sunday and Ash Wednesday are national holidays/Holy Days. 
    Here, unless you belong to the church, they're not much more then a
    handy excuse to leae work for a few hours.  
    
    That's part of the reason that I raised the comment.  It sounds very
    much like three different familys I know of in San Jose, California. 
    The parents or grandparents are immigrants and cling to the ways of
    there homelands, to avoid problems the newer generations people who are 
    friends of mine, will not take there second wives to a family party
    because 1) The women tend to be very possesive.  2) The family see's
    them as nothing more then tramps. 3) The ex-wife WILL be invited and
    often attend the gathering because they belong to that family in
    accordance with church doctrines (that is they were married in the
    church but not divorced by the church).  
    
    I'm not knocking the catholic religion I was raised catholic myself,
    but no longer practice it.  I just offered the info from my own
    experiences as a possible reason for what was happening.  Like I siad, 
    personnally I think there is something wrong in her not being allowed
    to participate in the man's family gatherings, as well as the fact that
    he has been seperated but not divorced for a long period of time. 
    However, I have had exposure to familys where this is more or less a
    normal behavior for someone who belongs to a very strong Latin oriented 
    Catholic family that has ended a marriage for one reason or another.
    
    Because of my exposure to such, I've wondered about the possibilities
    that this may be the case in this instance.  If so, there isn't much
    the lady can do, just accept it as the way things are and hope for the
    best.  His family will always dislike her for no other reason then the
    fact that (to them) she has broken up his real family.
    
    Skip

    My advice is not to "date" anyone who isn't legally single, no matter
    how long the separation has been going on.
    
    		-John Bishop

    I second .5... the man is not free.  
    Why get involved with a married man? 
    If HE is in love with your sister... he definitely should clear his act
    and get a divorce, then, he could, in all legality, date your sister,
    marry her or not marry her, but she would be treated with respect that 
    she, as well as his own family (sons, ex, et al,) deserves...
    
    Ana
    

With the family in the U.S. being broken by divorce so often, it's
    refreshing to know that the family is as important as it apparently
    is in the Latin community, be it religion or otherwise!!
    

This reply is being posted anonymously.
___________________________________________________________________________

Reading through this string, I thought my own story would help.  I have 
been seeing a man off and on for 3 years.  He is a widower.  In the last 
9 months our relationship has grown stronger.  There is no doubt that we 
are very good friends and that we love one another.  Yet, he will not take 
me to his family functions, nor will he go to mine.  I do not go to his son's 
games, indeed I am very rarely around his son or his daughter.  He keeps 
our relationship completely separate from his kids.  We spend very 
little time together.  Yet how we feel about one another is very strong.

My friends don't understand why I stay in this relationship.  They don't 
understand that his kids come first.  They don't understand that he just 
does not want a full time committed relationship.  After his wife died, 
he emotionally abandoned them and is now making them number one in his 
life, to make amends for not being there for a couple of years.  I 
understand all of his reasons.  Yes, I get frustrated that I am not 
included, we have recently had several longs talks about this very 
subject.  He is not willing to make a committment to me or anyone else.  
He is not willing to give up the things that he does to spend more time 
with me.  As he pointed out, we have grown closer since a year ago.  
There is a very deep love there.  

Yes, I deserve better.  Yes, I am tossing around the idea of dating 
other men.  But deep in my heart, I feel I will always go back to him.  
But then who knows, I may just meet someone else that I feel the same 
way about that can spend more time with me, building a committed 
relationship.  There is no black and white here.

I guess the bottom line here, is that no one really knows what goes on 
in a relationship except the two people that are in it.  I don't know 
why your sister stays in this relationship.  Only she and the man she is 
involved with know.  And she will continue to stay in the relationship 
until it either grows into a committed relationship or her pain gets so 
great that she can no longer stay there.  I know from my own experience 
that what other people think about my relationship is their business, 
not mine.  I will stay in this relationship until it becomes committed 
or until my pain becomes so great that I can no longer stay in it.

    
    
    re -1
    
    
    Why will you stay in the relationship while you know that it is hurting
    you now?  You stated you deserve better.  What makes you think that
    your happiness should be put on hold?  You have to be the one who wants
    to make the change not him.  I would suggest talking to a person about
    this who will listen and advise without being objective.  You are
    allowing your life to be painful.  Life is just too short to hang
    on to the negativity.

This reply is being posted anonymously for the author of 1197.8
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
   > Why will you stay in the relationship while you know that it is hurting
   > you now?  You stated you deserve better.  What makes you think that
   > your happiness should be put on hold?  You have to be the one who wants
   > to make the change not him.  I would suggest talking to a person about
   > this who will listen and advise without being objective.  You are
   > allowing your life to be painful.  Life is just too short to hang
   > on to the negativity.

	My first response is because I love him, but that seems too 
simplistic.  We have a great friendship.  We can talk about anything.  
We have an honest relationship.  He is a wonderful guy.  Yes, this does 
cause pain, because of the way I feel about him and because I want more. 
I am very much aware of the fact the *I* am choosing to stay in this 
relationship.  He has been honest with me, I can't ask for more than that.  
And maybe I have some inner growth to do before I am ready to open *MY* life 
any further.  We had a very long discussion around this just a couple of days 
ago.  We also discussed our relationship in depth.  We have been very 
honest with each other.  I can't demand that he give what he hasn't got 
right now.  Like I said, when the pain becomes to great I will leave.  
Or this will grow into a committed relationship. Which is what I hope 
for.

I do not hang onto the negativity of this relationship.  My life is very 
full outside of it.  I don't spend alot of time dwelling on it.  I just 
thought that I would share a similar experience and to point out that a 
relationship continues, in spite of pain, for whatever the reasons the 
two people in it have.  And in spite of what other people think.

When I got divorced I made a rule: Never date a married man.

I followed that rule, but still spent 3 years in a relationship that
went nowhere. He said he loved me, wanted to get married, but I began to
stand back and observe his actions. Was I part of his life, friends, family,
future plans?  Was I always first, or squeezed in, like an appointment in 
a date book?

I broke that relationship several months ago. I feel like a weight has 
been lifted off my shoulders. I have control of my life again. I no longer wait
for someone else to make a decision affecting my life. I'm making my own
decisions again!

I hope your sister finds her answers sooner than I did. 

Regards,

Linda