Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    I agree with you.  It is time for him to find his own house, and if he
    wants to live at home... he has to live by YOUR rules!  I have a 25 yr
    daughter living at home and it's great! but of course, she lives by our
    rules, age does nothing to do with it.  We had rules since the kids
    were born, and as long as they live in OUR house they follow, and will
    always follow, our guidelines. they cannot have any guests 'without'
    permision regardless gender... but if they are males they are NOT
    allowed in the bedroom area (second floor) male guests sleep either the
    family room or the downstairs' bedroom in basement... that goes for
    EVERYBODY and absolutely NO guests without us being in the house!
    
    This might be a bit drastic for some readers, but it is fine for us and
    so far... fool proof! we haven't had a single problem with any of our 3
    kids...(25, 24, 17) (I was adopted 'mother of the year' during college
    years for the nice parties we always gave to all sorts of kids, mainly 
    those who lived overseas and were alone here in the U.S... (my rules
    applied to all of them too, and they loved us). Our kids do know what
    is expected from them and they KNOW what they can do and what they
    CANNOT do.
    
    Be a bit firm and... see what happens! Best luck.  Ana
    

    I'm 23 years old. When I was 19 I had the same problem with my mother
    - she didn't want a group of my friends coming to the house AT ALL
    or calling. I respected her wishes and moved out. I think your son
    should do the same - it's YOUR house and he should respect that.
    It's the best thing that ever happened actually, my mom and I get
    along much better now.

    I always got the impression my mother would gladly have me get my own
    place at 18.  I had a job or three, I had college during the school
    year, and they helped with what expenses I couldn't handle.
    
    I say charge the working 24 year old rent and tell him he can live by
    your rules, or to find his own place.  You have a life, too, and yours
    is being disrupted by his.  Either he can live with you in harmony, or
    find his own space.
    
    What's wrong with him finding his own space?  He can come and go as he
    pleases.  Of course, he'll have to do his own chores, laundry,
    shopping, pay for things he took for granted before - so there may well
    be flack and a cold shoulder.
    
    But in the end, how's he going to learn responsibility for these things
    unless he experiences them on his own?
    
    -Jody

    I'm shocked you've let it go on so long.  If you don't like what he's
    doing in your house he should no longer be in your house.
    
    And if he pulls the, "You don't love me" B.S. throw it back in his
    face with you don't respect me or my property.
    
    Draw a line and stand firm...even if he were to never talk to you
    again he would be a better person for handling more responsibility.
    
    
    
                                 L.J.

    I remember when I was 18 and couldn't wait to get my own place.
     Mostly because I wanted to come and go as I wish and invite anybody
    over whenever I wanted.  My step-dad was totally ridiculous in that
    we still had to be in bed when at home around 12-1am 'cause he couldn't
    the T.V. or stereo being on.  My mom wanted me to call home if I
    wouldn't be in by 10p.m.  I felt like I was still on a leash.  I
    remember when my step dad demanded that I give him my car keys,
    (which I was paying for) 'cause I hadn't come home the night before.
     I refused and he told me that if I didn't want to follow their
    rules, well then I could move out.  So, I did.  Then, I moved back
    in after some events and decided to at least tolerate their rules.
    
    But, I will say that had I planed a little better, the move out
    would have been much more successful.  My younger sister, 17 at
    the time moved out with me.  She took a bus to school each day and
    we both worked so it wasn't like we were irresponsible.  We were
    just very independent and wanted to be on our own without strings
    attached.  Anyway, I only stayed at home for 2 mos. before moving
    out for the 2nd and last time.  My other sister, 16 moved out also
    but she graduated early from high school and moved to California
    for 5 years before returning to move in with Debra, our sister in
    Atlanta.  
    
    I'd encourage my own children to stay home as long as possible,
    but there comes a time when one has to meet responsibily for how
    they'd like to live &that should not be in conflict with the person
    ruling the house. 
    
    To this day, at 28, I'd still not live at home.  I just don't want
    my mom's input on such a constant basis.
                         

          As an aside of sorts, it's been very interesting to me to 
    see how we act as parents...into the child's adulthood.  We all
    have certain responsibilities as parents up until a child reaches
    reasonable levels of "grown-up-ness."  For some reason, however,
    most parents never seem to know when to let go of parenthood.  The
    difficulty with this is that the "child" can never let go of
    childhood and can therefore never reach adulthood (though the
    child may now be "grown-up.")
          It is *imperative*, if a child is to become an adult, and
    if a parent is to leave parenthood behind, to make "the break."
    A parent must stop treating an off-spring as a child, and a 
    child must be forced into their own responsibility.  "You are
    no longer my baby, my child, my son or my daughter.  You are a
    man or a woman, someone I have loved, someone I love, someone I
    would like to continue to love.  You are free of my control.  Set
    me free from yours.  Please be my friend.  Interact with me as we
    interact with our other friends.  Our past will always be bonded.
    Our future stays bonded not from obligation or need, but rather
    out of preference.  Neither of us can grow if we refuse to recognize
    this."  Parents are usually people who haven't "released" their
    own parents (notice that leaving in anger is not necessarily releasing
    a parent) and should surprise no one in their inability to sever the
    parental ties.  
        Make a conscious decision.  Let the children become adult.  Set
    yourselves free.
    
    Frederick
     

    At the very least a grown child should pay rent!
    
    I, too, think that it's time for this one to move out.
    
    		-John Bishop

    I agree with the advice given in the previous replies, but I'd like
    to comment on something Frederick (.6) wrote.  I believe my parents are
    much more than friends and always will be.  Though my parent's role has
    changed since I no longer live in their home, I still remain very much
    their son.
    
    I'm not discouraging people who have a "friends" relationship with
    their parents, if it works for them great.  I don't, however, believe
    that it's imperative for parents to leave parenthood behind.  Frankly,
    I'm not sure how they really could.  I believe you can still be a
    parent when your children have become adults and moved out on their
    own - and that doesn't mean treating them like children.
           
    	 Larry

    I had to start paying rent when I got my first job.  It wasn't much,
    but it had to be payed every month, I was 16 in High school and making
    a whopping big 80.00 a week.  I was then responsible for buying my own
    clothes, my own car, and paying rent.  When I was 18 and moved out, my
    mother handed me a savings account book from a local bank, she'd been
    taking the money during those 2 years and saving it for me.
    
    As to how my Father informed me to start thinking about moving out....
    on my 18th birthday, I sat down to dinner at the table, my mother had
    served me one of my all time favorite dinners, when I'd finished eating
    and whiped the last bit of gravey off the plate it was to discover a
    picture of "The Last Supper" on the bottom of the plate.  I looked at
    it for a moment (our dinner plates had always been plain white up until
    that particular meal) then look at my father, his comment was only "Get
    the message?"
    
    I stayed home for another two months then decided to join the service
    and "see the world"
    
    SKip 

    re:  .8 (Larry)
    
         The choice is clearly always there for you, as it is for
    everyone.  But I'd like to ask you, then, what exactly does "parent"
    mean?  Feel free to comment or not...
    
         For me, parent means mother or father, mentor, leader, person-in-
    charge, "figure-head"...it further means that the role is one of
    making the decisions, over-riding decisions, taking responsibility
    for someone else, never being true only to self, but rather having
    to be deligating for other. 
         Child means being dependent, freedom  without responsibility,
    never taking control or responsibility for actions, always having
    something in place (parents, in this case) to blame in case
    things don't go my own way, never admitting that this reality
    is all own doing...it means that I must always seek
    permission or approval or validation, for I am not strong enough
    to give it to myself (and even more, that I REFUSED to give it to
    myself, since I have given up responsibility.)  
          Even if I decide to act on my own, I cannot; I cannot because
    I have never owned my responsibility.  In the back of my mind, 
    lurking in the sub-conscious, is the thought "I am a child of my
    parents."  What I get to feel then is anger, turning into rage,
    impotence, frustration, inability to be an adult and inability to
    be an appropriate parent.
          As a parent, what I get to feel is imprisoned. Imprisoned by
    a person who chooses to place total (or at least too much) dependence
    on me.  I get to feel angry that this job never ends.  I get to feel
    angry that I must make decisions, no matter how inappropriate, for
    this other human.  I get to resent that the person never grows up,
    that my life never changes, that I'm shackled to an existence of 
    domination and entrapment.  Why would I want to control someone else's
    life?  What cheap sense of power is in it for me?  What if I fail in
    that control?  What if that person starts blaming and accusing me of
    his/her failures?  What sort of guilt trips would I have to endure?
        This could be expanded upon greatly.  But I will only say this:
    being a parent means certain obligations and hopefully certain 
    desires and certain intentions and certain objectives.  But no-where
    is it said that one MUST do anything!  It is all choice.  Hopefully,
    the choice to be a parent is made responsibly.  But even if so done,
    part of that responsibility would entail helping the child become
    an adult.  That child CANNOT be an adult as long as you are its
    parent.  They are mutually exclusive.  Prison is not my choice.  Being
    a parent becomes being a jailor.  Notice that a jailor is as imprisoned
    as the jailed.
    
    Frederick
    

It, of course, depends on the culture...

Traditional Chinese thinking says that the "kids" stay home until they're
married off.  There becomes a major conflict if the kids were brought up
in America where the kids are encouraged to get out on their own as soon as
possible.

B.

    Hmmm the more I read of this note string the more I wonder what
    happened to respect?  I consider my father a mentor, and someone to go
    to when I need advice on a problem, I also consider him a friend and I
    have a lot of admiration for him.  But the real thing is respect... I
    was raised to respect him and my mother and something that I find hard
    to swallow anymore is the increasing number of children who lack it for
    there elders.  
    
    Something else that I always found amazing was how when I lived at home
    with my parents and they refused to let me do the things I wanted I
    regarded them as being ignorant of things.... but after I moved out and
    was on my own, I started learning how intelligent they are/were.  Seems
    the older I get, the smarter they become.
    
    Skip

    re: .10
    
    I'm not sure I understand the rationale of considering the parent/child
    relationship as one of jailor/prisoner.  You and I seem to share different
    definitions of the word "parent".  Yes, when I was younger my parents
    took care of me.  Fed me, clothed me, kept a roof over my head, and
    loved me all without my paying rent, utilities, or living expenses. 
    Now that I'm "grown up", an "adult", no longer a "child", I still have
    two parents.  They no longer have the responsibilities listed above
    (except to love me ;-) ) but they are still there for me.  To cheer me up
    when I'm feeling down, to give me advice when asked (and sometimes when
    not asked. :-)  ), to be there as Mom and Dad, and yes, to be my
    friends.
    
    I too dislike being referred to as their child, and much prefer the word
    "son", but I not so independent that I need to be referred to as "a
    good friend who lived with you during my childhood".  I think that's
    taking independence and "leaving the nest" a little too far.
    
        - Larry

    I have no answers.  
    
    Our 26 year old graduated from college in December.  He has been living
    apart for the past six years so each time he comes for a visit its a
    mixture of "good to see you" and "when did you say you were going
    home?".  He has always been a little wild so my wife says she's glad he
    went to school far away.  She wouldn't have wanted to be worrying all
    the time.
    
    The difference in generations is significant.  His music and ours don't
    mix well.  His recreation and ours don't fit.  His friends and ours
    don't mix.  He's happy to be on his own.  And we are too.  
    
    About paying rent - I understand why people suggest that but I'd
    subsidize him to live away from our home, even if he worked nearby.
    
    Dick

Some observations.

Wrt financial arrangements for working children, I think whatever makes sense
is reasonable. When my oldest got a part time job in HS, the understanding
was that she'd supply the gas for the car I supplied for her use. No rent.
When I was in school (HS & Col) the agreement with my folks was that I
covered my clothes, car expenses, social expenses, etc., but not room or
board. For a kid not in school but working full time, I feel that the
arrangement should take more substantial issues into account.

Wrt My House - My rules, I agree with this to a point. I also think that
"My rules" tend to change (relax?) as the child in question gets older.
I don't impose the same rules on my 20 year old that I'd impose on my
17 year old. I don't impose the same rules on either of them that I would
have five years ago. To be honest, if one of mine were to finish school, work,
and want to remain living at home, provided a financial agreement were
in place, I'd have no problems with eliminating all the rules except
"keep it clean and decent in public". I have no desire to restrict their
freedoms as human beings, and if it can work in my house, I don't have
any need to "control". It's not like shipping 'em out is going to change the
behavior.

-Jack

>Our 24 yr old graduated this summer from college and moved home.  He is
>working full-time and enjoying the benefits of home life with only his
>own expenses to take care of.

My mom (mother of 11) expected everyone to pay room and board after
they began working.  She needed the money. But she also thought it was
a great idea for parents who don't want or need the money to charge
room and board anyway. If the money is not wanted or needed, save it
"secretly" and hand it over at the wedding, or the emergency (or, these
days, maybe after the divorce). 

As I look back and see who paid and who didn't in our house (gee, I'm
broke; gee, I have an emergency; gee, I want ...), the willingness and
reliability of paying room and board DIRECTLY matches the happiness and
contentedness of each of my brothers' and sisters' lives.  The
freeloaders have always had a hard time ... with spouses, jobs,
careers, ....  

I think your son's fair share is at least $400 a month.  It's your 
house and his adulthood.  (I also think he will not flourish for the next 
few years, but if he can overcome his selfishness and belligerence, 
he will probably be OK.  Alas, folks don't change too rapidly at 24, so 
it will take him at least a few more years to grow up. IMO)

And you should not contribute any money to help him get his own place.
If you want to, send me the money and I'll hold it for you until you
can overcome your too active generosity. 

Yo!  Single noters:  What's the least a single person can get by on
these days by roughing it?  I'd guess $500 a month if one was a
practicing miser, with a roommate, an old car, no dates .... As the
basenoter is doing OK (own home, summer place, etc.), he or she
might be interested in hearing estimates of the figure. Sonny
sounds capable of needing at least a $1500 a month, so some other 
opinions might be useful here.

Meigs

P.S.  Forgive verbosity ... but I'm still irked about the brother 
whose car payment made it impossible for him to pay his share, so 
one of my sisters left college to replace her part time job with 
a full-time job. Mom needed the money. (That was around 1960 and my
sister is still irked, the brother is embarrassed, and my mother would
never discuss it.)

    What's wrong?  Nothing's wrong.  He's getting everything he can and for
    the price of a few arguments with you, it's a pretty good value and
    he's decided it's worth it to him.  That sounds pretty normal to me.  
    What's wrong in *your* life is that you've got a housemate you don't want.  
    It seems pretty clear to me what to do about housemates one doesn't want.
    Change the locks if you find that he returns when you're not around.
    Invite him over for occasional dinners and just wait out the snit.  It's 
    the response of a petulant child.  He'll get over it.  And both of you
    will be able to lead the lives you want - something all adults are
    entitled to.
    
    Sandy       

    I think that no rent is enough, it's time he moved out.
    
    ed

re .16:

Here's my SWAG on the minimal costs of a single person living around 
here without a car (rent, utilities, and phone based on my expenses)

	rent:  	$275	(� of a 4 bedroom house in Maynard)
	phone: 	$ 10	(long distance excluded - cheaper if split by 4)
	utils: 	$ 60
	food:  	$240	($60 a week - includes other things like detergent)
	clothes:$ 25	($300 a year)
	medical/
	dental	$ 50	(includes payroll contribution of ~$6 a week,
			 and things not covered like the dentist,
			 eye exams, etc - $600/year)
	bike:	$  5	(parts, etc.  Assumes self maintenance)
	------------
	Total:  $640

Don't think I left anything out (remember, this is without car, 
recreation, etc).  Could probably get along on about half the food
budget if I ate more spaghetti, drank no juice or milk, etc.

Now to get a better idea, throw in a 12th of your insurance bill,
add another $160 a month in recreation, gas, or whatever a week, 
$50 a month in maintenance for the car, $100 in other costs for a
decent car, like depreciation or car payments, or whatever (remember,
the cost of the car covers the life of the car, not the duration
of the payments).  And, of course, there are whatever other toys
you want like a stereo, bed, other furniture, etc.

M

    I am 25, single parent of a 5-year old, homeowner & I feel that your
    son is getting a pretty good life for nothing.  He should feel lucky.
    If this was my son, here's what I would do.  First of all since he is
    out of college and working full time he should (at least) be paying you
    rent.  Secondly, since he is 24, I would try to respect that he is an
    adult and provide him with some more trust.  I can understand your
    feelings about an overnight female guest, but no guests at anytime
    (when  you are not home) is a little extreme.
    
    Once he is paying rent, I would tell him that he can have guests over,
    but you would prefer no overnight female guests, and no guests in the
    bedroom.  Don't tell him "absolutely no female overnight guests &
    absolutely no guests in the bedroom" or he may do it anyway.  Tell him
    your feelings about this issue & then let it go.  Tell him you trust
    him to use his best judgement --- treat him like a adult and tell him
    that since he is an adult, then he is fully responsible for his
    actions.  I would also tell him that he is also responsible to pick up
    after himself and his guests if he has any over.  Give him the trust he
    wants and he may surprise you.
    
    If this fails, then ask him to find another place to live.  In the
    meantime -- Good Luck!!
    
    Debby
    

    You must have a heck of a family life (or a mansion) for him to stick
    around.  Anyway, you've got an adult boarder, and you should treat him
    as such.  If you can't take having an adult boarder in your house, he
    should leave.  If you can't take this particular one, he should leave.
    
    He sounds kind of warped to me, but any 24-year-old still playing the
    low end of a parent-child relationship has got to warp -- it's
    degrading, and unnatural for both of you.  At least I hope it's
    unnatural -- otherwise, he's looking at a pretty limited future. 
    
    FWIW, at 24 I wasn't living by my parents' rules, but I wasn't living
    with my parents.  When I came to visit, I let them know that certain
    rules would mean that I'd have to find a hotel to stay at; they
    preferred to relax those rules.  Their remaining preferences, I
    followed -- not because they were "rules", but out of politeness to my
    hosts (and parents).  The kind of hostile hypocrisy you describe sounds
    like desperately prolonged adolescence.
    
    Ray

    
    
    Hi,
    
       I've read all the other replies to this note and have come
    
     to a conclusion. Being a twenty year old kid who still lives at
    
     home with his parents, I think I'm very qualified to answer your 
    
     question, and in my opinion, you and your son are both causing the
    
     problem here.  I live in my parents home, I pay 50$ a week to sleep
    
     in my bed, eat a few meals, and use the shower.  I also have the
    
     freedom to come and go when I please, with whomever I please, granted
    
     I don't just bring female companions into the house whenever I please,
    
     but when mom and dad go away on the weekends I am allowed to have
    
     friends come over.  I pay for my own car, my own phone bills( okay,
    
     mabey not all the phone bills), and my own clothes.  I work third
    
     shift, so I'm gone by the time they come home on the days I do come 
    
     home, and we all see each other for about 1 full hour a week.  They 
    
     have a summer place which they run away to on the weekends, and at 
    
     this point they do trust me not to destroy the home I help in my own 
    
     small way.  I think both you and your son need to ease up on each
    
     other a little bit and try to see where the other is standing for a 
    
     change.  MAKE HIM PAY RENT.  It is amazing how fast he'll take an 
    
     active intrest in a household he is helping to support.  If all else
    
     fails kick him out for a while, a little taste of the real world will
    
     sober him up in a hurry.  As for yourself, stop living in a dream
    
     world, your son IS 24 and DOES have a sex life.  He is an adult and
    
     can make those decisions for himself, and if you don't look for the
    
     hair in the shower it will be easier to deal with.  Oh ya, one more 
    
     thing, about the girl waiting outside, as I have found out very 
    
     recently, breakups are hard, give that time and it will work itself 
    
     out.
    
                                     Comprimise, Comprimise, Comprimise
    
                                          Just Another Kid, John